Ditto, Linda! Belonging to this list is the best faculty development
activity I have engaged in over 26 years of college teaching.
Nancy L. Tuten, PhD
Professor of English
Director of the Writing-across-the-Curriculum Program
Columbia College
Columbia, South Carolina
[log in to unmask]
803-786-3706
-----Original Message-----
From: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar
[mailto:[log in to unmask]] On Behalf Of Linda Comerford
Sent: Friday, February 29, 2008 3:33 PM
To: [log in to unmask]
Subject: Re: Categories for rules (was Nancy's rules; "But" as a
preposition)
Bill,
Your last sentence referencing "rules that don't make sense" really
resonates with me. I'm sure many of you would disagree with this, but all
too often some "rules" just seem so darn illogical to my students and even
to me. Learning rules that do make sense makes them so much easier to
retain and use. I can't recall the last time I facilitated a grammar
workshop when the words "exception to the rule" didn't come out of
somebody's mouth.
That's why I value this group where I can learn which concepts that used to
be rules aren't anymore, why those changes have occurred, and new rules that
have emerged through the years.
Linda
Linda Comerford
317.786.6404
[log in to unmask]
www.comerfordconsulting.com
-----Original Message-----
From: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar
[mailto:[log in to unmask]] On Behalf Of Spruiell, William C
Sent: Friday, February 29, 2008 2:24 PM
To: [log in to unmask]
Subject: Re: Categories for rules (was Nancy's rules; "But" as a
preposition)
Nancy, Linda, et al.:
Within the first two weeks of my grammar courses, I usually introduce the
term "shibboleth" as a way of approaching the topic of "rules that are there
because they're there." In an odd (and disturbing) kind of way, a rule that
demands usage that's *least* like that of any modern English dialect works
the best to indicate that the user not only went to school, but cooperated
with the system. If chemists taught their students that all chemistry
articles had to use the word "defenestrate"
in the third-from-last sentence, such usage would come to mark students who
paid attention in chemistry class. I find that existentially distasteful
(I'm not sure that's the right term; I'm sure German has a compound noun for
what I'm reaching for, but I don't know what it is) but I suppose
businesses, etc. do get a certain benefit from hiring people who will
cooperate with rules, even if the rules don't make sense.
Bill Spruiell
Dept. of English
Central Michigan University
-----Original Message-----
From: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar
[mailto:[log in to unmask]] On Behalf Of Nancy Tuten
Sent: Friday, February 29, 2008 12:12 PM
To: [log in to unmask]
Subject: Categories for rules (was Nancy's rules; "But" as a
preposition)
Hi, Linda.
I agree completely that some of the rules that are important in the
professional world are important for good reasons; that is, they are not
simply arbitrary matters of preference but actually improve writing.
Those
would go in the second category.
But there are many "rules" that are important *only* because people perceive
them to be so--such as the distinction between "assure" and "ensure." It
drives me crazy when people use the first when the second would be a better
choice, but I recognize that the distinction is not really critical to the
conveyance of meaning. That one would go in the first category. It's not
that I would tell people to stop making that distinction but rather I would
invite them to recognize the difference between a substantive choice and one
that is not.
Please don't think that I'm dismissing the so-called "arbitrary" rules as
unimportant. They are, in fact, very important in the professional world.
Was it on this list or in a recent NYT article that I read about an employer
who will hire the person who uses the semicolon correctly over an equally
qualified person who does not? They matter in the same way that following
certain prescribed formulas for business letters matters or knowing how to
dress appropriately in certain business environments matters.
So I guess the bottom line is that if a rule seems to have any substantive
effect on writing--if it aids with clarity, readability, etc.--then it would
go in the second category even though those rules may also be valued in the
professional world (and we would hope so!).
To some extent, my cowriter and I will be making those judgments. For
example, we think the distinction between "which" and "that" is helpful in
distinguishing between nonrestrictive and restrictive information.
Others
(as we have seen in earlier discussions) may think the difference is
arbitrary. We hope that the book will raise these very issues for laypeople
(non-ATEGers) and help them make informed decisions.
And now that I think about it, I probably need a third category for what Ed
calls the myth rules. Just yesterday a woman wrote to me to ask if she was
right when she told someone to use "lay" for inanimate objects and "lie"
for
humans and animals.
Great question, Linda! I'm on sabbatical next fall to finish this project,
so I have been thinking a lot about how best to revise. Thanks for
encouraging me to start fine-tuning my thinking!
Nancy
Nancy L. Tuten, PhD
Professor of English
Director of the Writing-across-the-Curriculum Program Columbia College
Columbia, South Carolina [log in to unmask]
803-786-3706
-----Original Message-----
From: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar
[mailto:[log in to unmask]] On Behalf Of Linda Di Desidero
Sent: Friday, February 29, 2008 9:42 AM
To: [log in to unmask]
Subject: Re: Nancy's rules ? But as a preposition?
Hi, Nancy.
I like the rule dichotomy that you are developing for your publication, but
I wonder if you don't see some overlap in these rules. I mean, aren't there
rules that workplace people think are important that are also related to
meaning? I guess I am asking: Do you see the two categories as mutually
exclusive? And when you find a rule that would fit in both categories, what
will you do?
Just curious--
Linda
Linda Di Desidero, Ph.D.
Associate Professor
Assistant Academic Director of Writing
University of Maryland University College
3501 University Boulevard, East
Adelphi, MD 20783
________________________________
From: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar on behalf of Nancy Tuten
Sent: Fri 2/29/2008 8:19 AM
To: [log in to unmask]
Subject: Re: But as a preposition?
The word "but" can fill all three slots, of course, but in answer to Peter's
question, I would point out that the meaning remains fairly consistent even
when the word is used in different roles. Just as "but" can be a preposition
replacing "except," some writers/speakers use "except" as a coordinating
conjunction:
I thought about going to the store, except I didn't have any money.
I would caution writers against such a construction, just as I would caution
them not to use "like" as a subordinating conjunction. But it is easy to see
why they would be tempted to replace "but" with "except" in a sentence such
as this one if they hadn't memorized the list of seven words widely accepted
as coordinating conjunctions.
Aren't we back to the notion of style--what I think of as linguistic
etiquette? Using "but" as a preposition works *and* it has long been
accepted as a legitimate preposition. On the other hand, even though
"except" works just fine as a coordinating conjunction (that is, the meaning
isn't lost), many people consider it "wrong."
A similar example would be confusion over the usage of "like" and "as":
"like" functions just fine as a subordinating conjunction (that is, the
intended meaning isn't lost when it is substituted for "as"), but
stylistically many people still consider it "wrong."
I'm about to start the revision process for a second edition of a book of
writing "tips" a colleague and I published about seven years ago, and I'm
almost to the point that I want to divide the entire book up into two major
sections: (1) those "rules" that are important to know because the
professional world thinks they are and educated people are supposed to know
them (linguistic etiquette, matters of style and usage) and (2) those
issues/rules that are important to know because they significantly affect
clarity of meaning or precision of expression (modification issues,
agreement issues, parallel structure, etc).
I am certain that I am going to start making that distinction in the one and
only grammar course that our English majors are required to take. I have
been doing so to some extent for years, actually, but not as intentionally
as I intend to do so now. The course (using Martha Kolln's text
_Understanding English Grammar_) focuses almost exclusively on the latter
issues anyway--syntax, mainly (and, yes, we diagram sentences and my
students consistently say that they are better writers for having done
so)--but students are still lumping that kind of understanding with a
knowledge of "rules" and calling *all* of it "grammar."
Nancy (who obviously had too much coffee for breakfast, Herb!)
Nancy L. Tuten, PhD
Professor of English
Director of the Writing-across-the-Curriculum Program Columbia College
Columbia, South Carolina [log in to unmask]
803-786-3706
-----Original Message-----
From: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar
[mailto:[log in to unmask]] On Behalf Of STAHLKE, HERBERT F
Sent: Friday, February 29, 2008 12:14 AM
To: [log in to unmask]
Subject: Re: But as a preposition?
Interestingly, the OED gives the part of speech of "but" as "prep., adv.,
conj." These distinct usages go back at least to the 9th c. As to whether
it's one word, or two, or three, I fear that depends on your theory of the
lexicon and what you had for breakfast.
Herb
-----Original Message-----
From: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar
[mailto:[log in to unmask]] On Behalf Of Peter Adams
Sent: 2008-02-28 22:50
To: [log in to unmask]
Subject: Re: But as a preposition?
Well, then, we (Herb, Nancy, and I, agree. But then I'm wondering (and this
harks back to my question of a week ago about "red" and
"snow") is this "but" a different word from the coordinating conjunction
"but," that just happens to be spelled and pronounced the same way, or is
this the same word which can be in either of two lexical classes depending
on context, or is this "but" the coordinating conjunction (form) being used
as a preposition (function)?
Peter, who admits he's becoming a little obsessed with this question . . .
Peter Adams
On Feb 28, 2008, at 9:13 PM, STAHLKE, HERBERT F wrote:
> Yes, it can. In the example you give, one could substitute a
> undisputed preposition like "except" and get the same meaning. With
> different meanings we can substitute other prepositions and the
> structure remains the same: behind, with, ahead of, after, near,
> under, above, etc. So it fills a slot that is a prepositional slot.
> It's semantic connection to the coordinating conjunction "but" is
> remote.
>
> Herb
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar
> [mailto:[log in to unmask]] On Behalf Of Peter Adams
> Sent: 2008-02-28 20:34
> To: [log in to unmask]
> Subject: But as a preposition?
>
> In a sentence like this
>
> Everyone but Craig is going to the movies.
>
> what lexical class is "but"? Can it be a preposition?
>
> Peter Adams
>
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