Craig,
My use of quotations seems more like what you're suggesting, but mine has been shaped/contaminated by years of computer programming, where quotes are used to bound literals, rather like their use when you want to narrow a Google search. I have not seen an clear articulation of this, and I think editors and truly rule-bound teachers will insist on including commas in periods within the quotation marks, even if they aren't a part of the quotation. But for some reason, if I recall correctly, semicolons and question marks don't. This is beginning to sound arcane and convoluted enough to make me wonder if rules for this vary with the teacher as much as understanding what passive voice does.
Herb
Herbert F. W. Stahlke, Ph.D.
Emeritus Professor of English
Ball State University
Muncie, IN 47306
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From: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar [[log in to unmask]] On Behalf Of Craig Hancock [[log in to unmask]]
Sent: October 29, 2009 9:29 AM
To: [log in to unmask]
Subject: Re: Good Grief, Good Grammar
Does the rule change when using quotation marks to designate words as words or for titles? In other words, is it only for actual quotations? Has anyone seen a clear articulation of that?
"The Negro Speaks of Rivers", "Harlem", and "Mother to Son" are frequently anthologized Langston Hughes poems.
"Beat", over the years, has taken on meanings beyond the core meaning of repeatedly striking.
Are those considered correct?
Craig
Beth Young wrote:
Chiming in late . . . It's not just the NYT that cares about punctuation; many teachers will object to nonstandard punctuation of " and ,/.
So I tell my students they have choices:
1. Punctuate the "logical" way and they'll probably be fine in Canada, UK, etc. but not in the US for those who know the other rule. They'll need to think about their punctuation each time. They'll risk looking uneducated to audiences that know the US rule.
2. Punctuate according to the US rule and they'll be fine for any US audience that knows the rule, and the rule requires less thought (punctuating ./, and " is always the same; they'll only need to think about other punctuation marks).
I tell them to follow the US rule in my class because "house style" for our comp program = US rules. They can choose to do whatever they want, though, if they don't mind the consequences. I myself have been known to deliberately break rules I thought were silly . . . though as I grow older, breaking rules to make a point grows less attractive. (I even find myself correcting "less" to "fewer" sometimes. Andy-Rooney-ville, here I come.)
I too would like to know if the typesetter story is correct. I share the story with my students as possibly apocryphal because it helps them remember the US rule.
Beth
Brad Johnston <[log in to unmask]><mailto:[log in to unmask]> 10/24/2009 10:56 PM >>>
Good point, DD.
Or, tell the little dears to learn it the logical, reasonable, sensible way and then if they ever want to sell an article to the New York Times, they'll have three choices.
Slog through the NYT Style Book and make their work comply.
Send it in and hope the NYT copy editor will change it to suit.
If it comes up, defend it as "style and preference".
(You would not believe the number of authors who have defended bad grammar to me based on "style and preference", e.g., Stuart Woods defending, "Attila had been killed for fifty dollars" (without context, Herb).
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DD Farms <[log in to unmask]><mailto:[log in to unmask]> wrote:
Because you write to the style book's conventions, or you don't get published?
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Brad Johnston <[log in to unmask]><mailto:[log in to unmask]> wrote:
Good Grief, Good Grammar, by Dianna Booher, c.1988.
page 133: "Rules about quotation marks used in conjunction with commas and periods often bring resistance because they are illogical. Never mind, just learn them. Place commas and periods inside closing quotation marks -- regardless of meaning."
Nonsense. It is easy, logical, and meaningful to put quotation marks where they belong, at both ends of a quotation. Why would anyone struggle to teach it otherwise?
.brad.sat.24oct09.
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