Scott,
It may be. I have /Di otEl/, no /h/, but "hotels are expensive" with /h/. Because the word came into English without /h/ and later acquired it by an irregular process, spelling pronunciation, its behavior won't necessarily be regular. Yours may be a little more irregular than most.
Herb
-----Original Message-----
From: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar [mailto:[log in to unmask]] On Behalf Of Scott Catledge
Sent: Tuesday, August 30, 2011 9:30 AM
To: [log in to unmask]
Subject: Re: ATEG Digest - 28 Aug 2011 to 29 Aug 2011 (#2011-162)
Why would one say an hotel without the /h/ and /Di/ hotel with the /h/.
Should not one drop the /h/ or say the article with a schwa--not an /i/.
Is that just as ideolectical variation on my part?
Scott
-----Original Message-----
From: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar [mailto:[log in to unmask]] On Behalf Of ATEG automatic digest system
Sent: Tuesday, August 30, 2011 12:00 AM
To: [log in to unmask]
Subject: ATEG Digest - 28 Aug 2011 to 29 Aug 2011 (#2011-162)
There are 3 messages totalling 568 lines in this issue.
Topics of the day:
1. Dropping the h (3)
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Date: Mon, 29 Aug 2011 12:19:35 -0400
From: Scott Catledge <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Dropping the h
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My MS Word did not like most of the discussion and left only a few sentences legible.
For this reason I may be repeating what others have said; if so , my apology.
I keep the 'h' in "the historical" and drop it in "an historical." I say "a history." Why do
I not say "an history." The very presence of 'an' tells me that the 'h' in historical is
silent-but why? I cannot think of another phrase comparable to "an historical"
except 'an hysterical."
Can you?
Norman Scott Catledge, PhD/STD
Professor Emeritus
history & languages
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--></style><!--[if gte mso 9]><xml>
<o:shapedefaults v:ext=3D"edit" spidmax=3D"1026" /> </xml><![endif]--><!--[if gte mso 9]><xml> <o:shapelayout v:ext=3D"edit"> <o:idmap v:ext=3D"edit" data=3D"1" /> </o:shapelayout></xml><![endif]--></head><body lang=3DEN-US link=3Dblue = vlink=3Dpurple><div class=3DWordSection1><p class=3DMsoNormal>My MS Word = did not like most of the discussion and left only a few sentences = legible.<o:p></o:p></p><p class=3DMsoNormal>For this reason I may be = repeating what others have said; if so , my apology.<o:p></o:p></p><p = class=3DMsoNormal><o:p> </o:p></p><p class=3DMsoNormal>I keep the = ‘h’ in “the historical” and drop it in “an = historical.” I say “a history.” Why = do<o:p></o:p></p><p class=3DMsoNormal>I not say “an = history.” The very presence of ‘an’ tells me = that the ‘h’ in historical is<o:p></o:p></p><p = class=3DMsoNormal>silent—but why? I cannot think of another = phrase comparable to “an historical” <o:p></o:p></p><p = class=3DMsoNormal> except ‘an hysterical.” = <o:p></o:p></p><p class=3DMsoNormal>Can you?<o:p></o:p></p><p = class=3DMsoNormal><o:p> </o:p></p><p class=3DMsoNormal>Norman Scott = Catledge, PhD/STD<o:p></o:p></p><p class=3DMsoNormal>Professor = Emeritus<o:p></o:p></p><p class=3DMsoNormal>history & = languages<o:p></o:p></p><p = class=3DMsoNormal><o:p> </o:p></p></div></body></html>
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Date: Mon, 29 Aug 2011 17:24:54 -0400
From: Eduard Hanganu <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Re: Dropping the h
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Norman Scott,=20
I _ope _hat _his _elpful t_oug_t and r_etorical question mig_t _elp t_is _o= st of folks to _ave an _istorical impact on _his issue.=20
=C2=A0=20
Eduard=20
----- Original Message -----
From: "Scott Catledge" <[log in to unmask]>=20
To: [log in to unmask]
Sent: Monday, August 29, 2011 11:19:35 AM=20
Subject: Dropping the h=20
My MS Word did not like most of the discussion and left only a few sentence= s legible.=20
For this reason I may be repeating what others have said; if so , my apolog=
y.=20
=C2=A0=20
I keep the =E2=80=98h=E2=80=99 in =E2=80=9Cthe historical=E2=80=9D and drop= it in =E2=80=9Can historical.=E2=80=9D=C2=A0 I say =E2=80=9Ca history.=E2=
=80=9D=C2=A0 Why do=20
I not say =E2=80=9Can history.=E2=80=9D=C2=A0 The very presence of =E2=80=
=98an=E2=80=99 tells me that the =E2=80=98h=E2=80=99 in historical is=20
silent=E2=80=94but why?=C2=A0 I cannot think of another phrase comparable t= o =E2=80=9Can historical=E2=80=9D=C2=A0=20
=C2=A0except =E2=80=98an hysterical.=E2=80=9D=C2=A0=20
Can you?=20
=C2=A0=20
Norman Scott Catledge, PhD/STD=20
Professor Emeritus=20
history & languages=20
=C2=A0 To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web int= erface at: http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html and select "Join o= r leave the list"=20
Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/
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<html><head><style type=3D'text/css'>p { margin: 0; }</style></head><body><= div style=3D'font-family: Times New Roman; font-size: 12pt; color: #000000'=
><P>Norman Scott,</P>
<P> </P>
<P style=3D"MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt" class=3DMsoNormal><FONT size=3D3><FONT fac= e=3D"Times New Roman">I _ope _hat _his _elpful t_oug_t and r_etorical quest= ion mig_t _elp t_is _ost of folks to _ave an _istorical impact on _his issu= e.<?xml:namespace prefix =3D o ns =3D "urn:schemas-microsoft-com:office:off=
ice" /><o:p></o:p></FONT></FONT></P>
<P style=3D"MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt" class=3DMsoNormal><o:p><FONT size=3D3 face= =3D"Times New Roman"> </FONT></o:p></P> <P style=3D"MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt" class=3DMsoNormal><FONT size=3D3><FONT fac= e=3D"Times New Roman">Eduard <o:p></o:p></FONT></FONT></P> <P><BR><BR> </P> <P> <HR id=3Dzwchr> </P>
<P><B>From: </B>"Scott Catledge" <[log in to unmask]><BR><B>To: </B>ATEG=
@LISTSERV.MUOHIO.EDU<BR><B>Sent: </B>Monday, August 29, 2011 11:19:35 AM<BR=
><B>Subject: </B>Dropping the h<BR><BR></P>
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<P class=3DMsoNormal>My MS Word did not like most of the discussion and lef= t only a few sentences legible.</P> <P class=3DMsoNormal>For this reason I may be repeating what others have sa= id; if so , my apology.</P> <P class=3DMsoNormal> </P> <P class=3DMsoNormal>I keep the =E2=80=98h=E2=80=99 in =E2=80=9Cthe histori= cal=E2=80=9D and drop it in =E2=80=9Can historical.=E2=80=9D I say = =E2=80=9Ca history.=E2=80=9D Why do</P> <P class=3DMsoNormal>I not say =E2=80=9Can history.=E2=80=9D The very= presence of =E2=80=98an=E2=80=99 tells me that the =E2=80=98h=E2=80=99 in = historical is</P> <P class=3DMsoNormal>silent=E2=80=94but why? I cannot think of anothe= r phrase comparable to =E2=80=9Can historical=E2=80=9D </P> <P class=3DMsoNormal> except =E2=80=98an hysterical.=E2=80=9D </=
P>
<P class=3DMsoNormal>Can you?</P>
<P class=3DMsoNormal> </P>
<P class=3DMsoNormal>Norman Scott Catledge, PhD/STD</P> <P class=3DMsoNormal>Professor Emeritus</P> <P class=3DMsoNormal>history & languages</P> <P class=3DMsoNormal> </P></DIV>To join or leave this LISTSERV list, p= lease visit the list's web interface at: http://listserv.muohio.edu/archive=
s/ateg.html and select "Join or leave the list"=20 <P>Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/</P></div></body></html>
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Date: Mon, 29 Aug 2011 23:45:34 -0400
From: "STAHLKE, HERBERT F" <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Re: Dropping the h
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Here's a short treatment of initial <h> in English. I'm taking a historica= l approach to the problem in part out of inclination-I do historical lingui= stics, but I also think understanding why orthographic initial <h> behaves = a little oddly in English requires understanding its history. In this disc= ussion, I'm using the linguistic conventions of // to identify sounds and <=
> to identify letters.
/h/ deletion is a bit messy. One of the fundamental discoveries and princi= ples of historical linguistics is that sound change is regular. If a sound= changes, it changes all across the language, not just in some words. For = example, English /t/ has deleted consistently between a fricative (/th, f, =
s/) and /l/ or /n/, as in "listen," "whistle," "wrestle," "often," etc. Ho= wever, social and other external pressures can interfere with this regulari= ty, and that's what's happened with English initial /h/. Old English had i= nitial /h/ in words like "horse," "heart," "hand," "hound," and many others= and did not drop it. /h/ dropping didn't begin till well after the Norman= invasion and was influenced by French spelling. English borrowed lots of = French words spelled with initial <h>, a sound that was not, and is not tod= ay, pronounced in French. In fact, those initial <h> had never been pronou= nced, not even when they originated in Latin, as most of them did. So the = words were borrowed without the initial /h/ sound but were spelled with the= letter <h>.
As literacy spread, English speakers who did not speak French confronted in= itial <h> that were pronounced and initial <h> that were not. We still hav= e this in words like "honor," "honest," and "hour," all French loans that h= ave remained /h/-less, unlike "hotel" and "hospital," French loans that hav= e gained an initial /h/. The initial <h> that are now pronounced in loan w= ords are examples of what's called "spelling pronunciation," the same force= that leads people to pronounce the <t> in "often" or the <l> in "almond." = Spelling pronunciation applies haphazardly. It's not a form of regular so= und change. Rather, it a kind of hyper-correction. In many cases, the ini= tial /h/ has come to be accepted as standard, as in "history"; in others it= has not.
The difference between "an historic event," without the /h/, and "a history= of English," with the /h/, shows how the /h/-less pronunciation of the loa= nword would lead to the use of the indefinite "an" and the definite /Di/, w= hich sounds like "thee." What has happened with some words, like "history,= " is that they have sounded the initial <h> through spelling pronunciation,= and this change then analogizes to the adjective form so that it too is co= nsonant-initial and takes the indefinite "a."
/h/-insertion, in those dialects of BrE English that have it, and this cove= rs most of England, is a form of hypercorrection. The speaker knows that i= n BBC English, for example, some <h> are pronounced and some are not, but t= he speaker doesn't know which are which, and so he or she will tend to omit= /h/ unless the word is emphasized, in which case an /h/ gets inserted whet= her it's there in BBC English or not. Like other examples of hypercorrecti= on, this is not a rule-governed, regular phonological pattern. It varies w= ith speakers and occasions.
Herb
From: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar [mailto:[log in to unmask] OHIO.EDU] On Behalf Of Scott Catledge
Sent: Monday, August 29, 2011 12:20 PM
To: [log in to unmask]
Subject: Dropping the h
My MS Word did not like most of the discussion and left only a few sentence= s legible.
For this reason I may be repeating what others have said; if so , my apolog= y.
I keep the 'h' in "the historical" and drop it in "an historical." I say "= a history." Why do I not say "an history." The very presence of 'an' tells me that the 'h' in= historical is silent-but why? I cannot think of another phrase comparable to "an histori= cal"
except 'an hysterical."
Can you?
Norman Scott Catledge, PhD/STD
Professor Emeritus
history & languages
To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web interface =
at: http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html and select "Join or leave= the list"
Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/
To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web interface
at:
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and select "Join or leave the list"
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<o:shapedefaults v:ext=3D"edit" spidmax=3D"1026" /> </xml><![endif]--><!--[if gte mso 9]><xml> <o:shapelayout v:ext=3D"edit"> <o:idmap v:ext=3D"edit" data=3D"1" /> </o:shapelayout></xml><![endif]--></head><body lang=3DEN-US link=3Dblue vli= nk=3Dpurple><div class=3DWordSection1><p class=3DMsoNormal>Here’s a s= hort treatment of initial <h> in English. I’m taking a hi= storical approach to the problem in part out of inclination—I do hist= orical linguistics, but I also think understanding why orthographic initial= <h> behaves a little oddly in English requires understanding its his= tory. In this discussion, I’m using the linguistic conventions = of // to identify sounds and <> to identify letters. <o:p></o:p=
></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><o:p> </o:p></p><p class=3DMsoNormal>/h/
>del=
etion is a bit messy. One of the fundamental discoveries and principl= es of historical linguistics is that sound change is regular. If a so= und changes, it changes all across the language, not just in some words.&nb= sp; For example, English /t/ has deleted consistently between a fricative (= /th, f, s/) and /l/ or /n/, as in “listen,” “whistle,R= 21; “wrestle,” “often,” etc. However, social = and other external pressures can interfere with this regularity, and that&#= 8217;s what’s happened with English initial /h/. Old English ha= d initial /h/ in words like “horse,” “heart,” ̶= 0;hand,” “hound,” and many others and did not drop it.&nb= sp; /h/ dropping didn’t begin till well after the Norman invasion and= was influenced by French spelling. English borrowed lots of French w= ords spelled with initial <h>, a sound that was not, and is not today= , pronounced in French. In fact, those initial <h> had never be= en pronounced, not even when they originated in Latin, as most of them did.= So the words were borrowed without the initial /h/ sound but were sp= elled with the letter <h>. <o:p></o:p></p><p class=3DMsoN=
ormal><o:p> </o:p></p><p class=3DMsoNormal>As literacy spread,
ormal>English=
speakers who did not speak French confronted initial <h> that were p= ronounced and initial <h> that were not. We still have this in = words like “honor,” “honest,” and “hour,̶= 1; all French loans that have remained /h/-less, unlike “hotel”= and “hospital,” French loans that have gained an initial /h/.&= nbsp; The initial <h> that are now pronounced in loan words are examp= les of what’s called “spelling pronunciation,” the same f= orce that leads people to pronounce the <t> in “often” or= the <l> in “almond.” Spelling pronunciation applie= s haphazardly. It’s not a form of regular sound change. R= ather, it a kind of hyper-correction. In many cases, the initial /h/ = has come to be accepted as standard, as in “history”; in others= it has not.<o:p></o:p></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><o:p> </o:p></p><p cla= ss=3DMsoNormal>The difference between “an historic event,” with= out the /h/, and “a history of English,” with the /h/, shows ho= w the /h/-less pronunciation of the loanword would lead to the use of the i= ndefinite “an” and the definite /Di/, which sounds like “= thee.” What has happened with some words, like “history,&= #8221; is that they have sounded the initial <h> through spelling pro= nunciation, and this change then analogizes to the adjective form so that i= t too is consonant-initial and takes the indefinite “a.” = <o:p></o:p></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><o:p> </o:p></p><p class=3DMsoNorm=
al>/h/-insertion, in those dialects of BrE English that have it, and
al>this c=
overs most of England, is a form of hypercorrection. The speaker know= s that in BBC English, for example, some <h> are pronounced and some = are not, but the speaker doesn’t know which are which, and so he or s= he will tend to omit /h/ unless the word is emphasized, in which case an /h= / gets inserted whether it’s there in BBC English or not. Like = other examples of hypercorrection, this is not a rule-governed, regular pho= nological pattern. It varies with speakers and occasions. <o:p>= </o:p></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span style=3D'color:#1F497D'><o:p> </o=
:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span style=3D'color:#1F497D'>Herb<o:p><=
/o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span style=3D'color:#1F497D'><o:p>&nb= sp;</o:p></span></p><div><div style=3D'border:none;border-top:solid #B5C4DF= 1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0in 0in 0in'><p class=3DMsoNormal><b><span style=3D'fo= nt-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"'>From:</span></b><span sty= le=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"'> Assembly for the= Teaching of English Grammar [mailto:[log in to unmask]] <b>On Behalf= Of </b>Scott Catledge<br><b>Sent:</b> Monday, August 29, 2011 12:20 PM<br>= <b>To:</b> [log in to unmask]<br><b>Subject:</b> Dropping the h<o:p><= /o:p></span></p></div></div><p class=3DMsoNormal><o:p> </o:p></p><p cl= ass=3DMsoNormal>My MS Word did not like most of the discussion and left onl= y a few sentences legible.<o:p></o:p></p><p class=3DMsoNormal>For this reas= on I may be repeating what others have said; if so , my apology.<o:p></o:p>= </p><p class=3DMsoNormal><o:p> </o:p></p><p class=3DMsoNormal>I keep t= he ‘h’ in “the historical” and drop it in “an= historical.” I say “a history.” Why do<o:p><= /o:p></p><p class=3DMsoNormal>I not say “an history.” The= very presence of ‘an’ tells me that the ‘h’ in his= torical is<o:p></o:p></p><p class=3DMsoNormal>silent—but why? I= cannot think of another phrase comparable to “an historical”&n= bsp; <o:p></o:p></p><p class=3DMsoNormal> except ‘an hysterical.= ” <o:p></o:p></p><p class=3DMsoNormal>Can you?<o:p></o:p></p><p= class=3DMsoNormal><o:p> </o:p></p><p class=3DMsoNormal>Norman Scott C= atledge, PhD/STD<o:p></o:p></p><p class=3DMsoNormal>Professor Emeritus<o:p>= </o:p></p><p class=3DMsoNormal>history & languages<o:p></o:p></p><p cla= ss=3DMsoNormal><o:p> </o:p></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span style=3D'fon= t-size:12.0pt;font-family:"Times New Roman","serif"'>To join or leave this = LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web interface at: <a href=3D"http://= listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html">http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives=
/ateg.html</a> and select "Join or leave the list" <o:p></o:p></s=
pan></p><p>Visit ATEG's web site at <a
pan>href=3D"http://ateg.org/">http://ate=
g.org/</a><o:p></o:p></p></div></body></html>=
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End of ATEG Digest - 28 Aug 2011 to 29 Aug 2011 (#2011-162)
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