Dear Herb, Don, Bill, and all,
Thank you very much for these clarifications regarding the coincidence of the infinitive with the base form of the verb; they are quite helpful for me beyond the immediate example. I wasn't certain, though, whether or not my analysis of the original sentence, I let her take comfort in the long odds against me, was correct.
Is the direct object simply "her" or is it "her take comfort in the long odds against me"? How is "take comfort in the long odds against me" correctly analyzed? as an object complement? or is the entire structure an infinitive phrase, with an agent, that serves as the direct object?
Thanks,
Natalie
________________________________
From: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar on behalf of Spruiell, William C
Sent: Mon 5/4/2009 1:30 AM
To: [log in to unmask]
Subject: Re: yet another complicated sentence structure
Don,
There's a class of theories that would view "her" as linked to an underlying subject form, but I don't think any current approaches would consider it a subject form itself (since it would have to be "I" to count as a subject, and the verb of which it's a subject would have to be capable of agreeing with it). It's definitely the *agent* of "take" (different theories use different labels for that, but "the person or thing performing the action" is the rough idea), but it's not a subject.
Bill Spruiell
-----Original Message-----
From: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar on behalf of Don Stewart
Sent: Mon 5/4/2009 12:18 AM
To: [log in to unmask]
Subject: Re: yet another complicated sentence structure
Herb,
Thanks for a splendid lesson on infinitives! I especially was enlightened by
your explanation of "Thy kingdom come."
As for the role of "her" in the sentence "I allowed her to take comfort...,"
my understanding is that the infinitive "to take" has both a subject, "her,"
and an object, "comfort," and collectively they form an infinitive phrase
working as the direct object of "allowed."
The part that has always puzzled my is why the subject of the infinitive is
in the objective case. And further, if you're supposed to have a predicate
nominative after a linking verb, what happens with "I knew the thief to be
he/him"?
Don Stewart
_______
Keeper of the memory and method
of Dr. Francis Christensen
On Sun, May 3, 2009 at 11:47 PM, STAHLKE, HERBERT F <[log in to unmask]>wrote:
> Natalia,
>
> Perhaps we need to begin with the fact that the infinitive is a tenseless,
> base form of the verb, identical, except for "be" with its present tense
> forms apart from third person. So the infinitive is not always marked by
> "to."
>
> English has a couple of classes of verbs that take infinitives without
> "to". Modals are the most obvious of these. May, might, can, could, will,
> would, shall, should, and must, the grammaticalized modals, all take
> infinitives without "to." One of the most common errors committed by ESL
> learners is to insert "to" after a modal. A second class is verbs of
> perception, like "feel," "see," "hear," "smell", "watch," etc.
>
> I felt wind blow.
> I saw the house burn.
> I heard the door slam.
> I smelled the trash burn.
> I watched the shark swim by.
>
> Then there are also a few idiosyncratic verbs, like "help," "let," and
> "make" that take infinitives without "to." These, however, vary in their
> ability to take "to."
> "Help" works in
>
> I helped cook dinner.
>
> However, if the object of "help" is longer, as in
>
> I helped some friends of mine from Chicago to find an apartment in
> Muncie.
>
> "to" becomes more likely.
>
> "Let" doesn't allow "to" at all, and "make" rarely takes it.
>
> Then there are semi-modals, like "need," "ought," and "dare." In
> non-assertive clauses (questions, negatives, conditionals) these can take
> infinitives without "to," although some of them will sound a bit formal.
>
> Need we leave now?
> We need not leave now.
> Ought we leave now?
> We ought not leave now.
> Dare we leave now?
> We dare not leave now.
>
> But "need" and "dare" can also behave like normal verbs:
>
> Do we need to leave now?
> We don't need to leave now.
> Do we dare (to) leave now?
> We don't dare (to) leave now.
>
> This doesn't work with "ought," probably because its modal use derives from
> its older status as the past tense of "owe."
>
> As you can see, there is a good bit of variation in how these various verbs
> work, across dialects and registers, and it's actually a little messier even
> than it looks above.
>
> The "to" infinitive develops from the preposition "to" and becomes a common
> infinitive form in Late Middle English, although forms with it appear in Old
> English, as in the petition from the Lord's Prayer:
>
> To becume thin rice
> To come thy kingdom
> Thy kingdom come
>
> where "to" still has something of a directional sense.
>
> Herb
>
>
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar [mailto:
> [log in to unmask]] On Behalf Of Natalie Gerber
> Sent: 2009-05-03 17:10
> To: [log in to unmask]
> Subject: Re: yet another complicated sentence structure
>
> Dear all,
>
> I found Martha's comments on the latest sentence to be extremely helpful.
> May I add one more sentence for analysis?
>
> "I let her take comfort in the long odds against me."
>
> Is it right to say that "let" is the main verb, "her" is the direct object,
> and "take comfort in the long odds against me" is an object complement (with
> internal structure we can ignore)? My impulse is to change the sentence
> structure to
>
> "I allowed her to take comfort in the long odds against me"
>
> to shore up my sense that "take comfort..." is an infinitive phrase, but
> this feels like a dodge to me.
>
> Thanks,
> Natalie
>
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