Herb,

My problem with your calling 'look after' (and subsequently 'look at') a
transitive verb creates a serious problem in terms of how I have taught
phrasal verbs for many years.

In ESL terms, there are four purposes in teaching about phrasal verbs.

First, in the case of francophones (and most ESL learners), they have to be
encouraged to use phrasal verbs as much as possible and this, because
phrasal verbs constitute the essence of English colloguial speech and are
not present in their own language.

Second, they need to understand the amazing productivity of phrasal verbs in
creating new figurative meanings which they need to be encouraged to add to
their vocab.

Third, they have to become used to thinking of phrasal verbs as verbs plus
adverbial particles, and this, because their own languages do not have
phrasal verbs (though they do have prepositional verbs).  Consequently, they
demonstrate a tendency to use verbs without the particle.  I remember a
(highly fluent speaker of English) French colleague telling me to 'pick a
book' I had dropped.  Similarly, last week, an Indian lady here in Dubai who
had spoken English from a very early age, told me that she would 'pick her
son at 7 o'clock'.   Thus, in both cases, 'up' was omitted.

Fourth, (and most importantly in the context of the present discussion), we
have to teach ESL students to distinguish between transitive phrasal verbs
and prepositional verbs in order that they understand (and learn to produce)
why they can say  both 'He looked up the word' and 'He looked the word up'
but cannot do the same with 'look at' and other prepostional verbs.

It is for this reason, Herb, that I would prefer NOT to teach ESL students
that verbs such as 'look after' are transitive verbs.  It makes far more
sense pedagogically to treat 'his mother' in 'He looked after his mother'
as the object of the preposition and not of the verb.

Ron Sheen


----- Original Message ----- 
From: "STAHLKE, HERBERT F" <[log in to unmask]>
To: <[log in to unmask]>
Sent: Wednesday, October 10, 2007 9:40 AM
Subject: Re: Those old transitivity blues was Help for a puzzled teacher


Ron,

I think your ESL pedagogy is sound.  We really don't disagree on that or
on what makes for useful and effective practice, and what doesn't.  I'm
not sure I see what you're getting at, though, with your contrast of
"look after" and "look at".  From the perspective of grammatical
analysis I'd call them both (mono)transitive prepositional verbs,
capture the fact that the preposition has become lexically bound to the
verb.  Consider, for example, how "look at" has become "lookit" in
informal speech.  But ESL students don't need this level of
differentiation and can do quite well considering "look" intransitive
and the prepositional phrase adverbial.  Different goals.

Herb


Well, that's all very well, Herb, but it doesn't really answer my
question
which was 'If you consider 'look after' as a monotransitive
prepositional
verb, what do you consider 'look at' to be, and if you differentiate
them
how do you do so in an ESL class?

In my view, again in an ESL class, one should consider neither to be
transitive,  sticking to the assumption that the following nouns are
objects
of the prepositions.

Again, as I think we understand, we are concerned here with pedagogical
clarity and not accurate sophisticated linguistic analysis.

As to the old chestnut of grammatical drills, I do not know what you
understand them to be, Herb. but my understanding of them entails the
repetition of forms without having to think about them.  As such, I
would
not have them within ten miles of my classroom.  All controlled practice

should require some form of reflection on an underlying rule even though
it
might be instantaneous.

As an example of identifying phrasal verbs and particle movement after a

period of instruction, I would organise a class for pair work in the
following way.  Each pair is named A and B.   B receives a sheet on
which
there are listed examples of sentences which contain a variety of
sentences
some of which contain both transitive phrasal verbs and prepositional
verbs.
The sheet also contains the answers so that B can act as 'teacher'.
The
instructions are as follows:

Listen to the example.   If you think there is a phasal verb in the
sentence, move the particle appropriately and say the modified sentence.
If
you think that the verb is a prepositional verb, simply say so.

B reads an example such as

The man put on his hat.

Students answers:  The man put his hat on.

B says 'Correct'.

If A says, Prepositional verb, B tries to get him to think about his
answer
and correct it.

I developed this technique many years ago and have used it very
frequently
with all levels.  I have found that the students like it and quickly
develop
their own teachniques to prompt their fellow students into changing
their
incorrect answers for correct ones.

Further, this to me underlies what I condier to be an important
principle of
successful pair work.   That is that one of the pair needs to be able to

provide the correct answer.

Ron Sheen

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