I admired him, fishing from a pier. Who or what did I admire? "him."
I admired his fishing from a pier. Who or what did I admire? "fishing."
Scott Catledge
I am pleased with my being labeled "conservative." I would not deny
my being labeled archconservative. I have never forgotten that conservative
and conservation are close kin. I wish to conserve clear and precise
language. I do not see language as static: I cannot speak Anglo-Saxon nor
do I need to unless I am teaching HEL. I had a director who was fond of
constantly reiterating that all progress is change. Regardless of the
physical or social context, I always reminded him out loud that all change
is not progress. I often see a need for new words; I do not see the need
for new pronunciations of words nor for new syntax.
My ex-wife always said /fore-head/.
I always responded:
There was a little girl and she had a little curl
Right in the middle of her /fore-head/
When she was good, she was very, very good.
When she was bad she was /hore-head/.
My kids quickly caught on to my pronunciation /for-rid/.
My grandchildren and my greatgrandchildren do not use my grammar and syntax.
Why should they? Their teachers do not teach grammar--they know no grammar
to teach. Moreover, it is politically incorrect to prefer one style over
any other. If it can be spoken, it must be correct to that child's peer
group--and that it the only important guideline for language.
-----Original Message-----
From: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar
[mailto:[log in to unmask]] On Behalf Of ATEG automatic digest system
Sent: Monday, December 15, 2008 12:00 AM
To: [log in to unmask]
Subject: ATEG Digest - 13 Dec 2008 to 14 Dec 2008 (#2008-265)
There are 13 messages totalling 4404 lines in this issue.
Topics of the day:
1. Clause or Phrase (5)
2. Conservatives!
3. Engaging in the grammar trenches (was: Conservatives!) (6)
4. scope and sequence: was clause or phrase
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----------------------------------------------------------------------
Date: Sat, 13 Dec 2008 23:34:50 -0800
From: Scott Woods <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Re: Clause or Phrase
--0-64264188-1229240090=:87409
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
=A0
Are these pairs basically synonymous to you and are they punctuated correct=
ly?
=A0
The boy was very happy that his mother did not see him being such a pig.
The boy was very happy that his mother did not see him eating so greedily.
The boy was very happy that his mother did not see him, being such a pig.
The boy was very happy that his mother did not see him, being such a duplic=
itous boy.
The boy was very happy that his mother did not see his being such a pig.
The boy was very happy that his mother did not see his bad behavior.
=A0
Scott Woods
=A0
--- On Fri, 12/12/08, DD Farms <[log in to unmask]> wrote:
From: DD Farms <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Re: Clause or Phrase
To: [log in to unmask]
Date: Friday, December 12, 2008, 11:30 PM
At 10:44 PM 12/12/2008, John Curran wrote:
> The boy was very happy that his mother did not see him being such a pig.
. . .
DD: The analysis went off into what sort of clause followed, "that."=20
Arrgh. Shouldn't some attention have been placed on the use of
"him" instead of "his?" If the emphasis is on whom the
mother saw, then I will allow "him," but insist on a comma after. If
the emphasis is on what the mother saw, I suggest it was the action followi=
ng a
possessive, "his." It is awkward in the first case, as that comma
might be interpreted to his mother's being the pig. Still, I think that if
you allow less than high standard English to prevail, the possessive and th=
e
gerund connection is ignored.
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=0A=0A=0A
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--0-64264188-1229240090=:87409
Content-Type: text/html; charset=us-ascii
<table cellspacing="0" cellpadding="0" border="0" ><tr><td valign="top"
style="font: inherit;"><DIV> </DIV>
<DIV>Are these pairs basically synonymous to you and are they punctuated
correctly?</DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV>The boy was very happy that his mother did not see him being such a
pig.</DIV>
<DIV>The boy was very happy that his mother did not see him eating so
greedily.<BR></DIV>
<DIV>The boy was very happy that his mother did not see him, being such a
pig.</DIV>
<DIV>The boy was very happy that his mother did not see him, being such a
duplicitous boy.<BR></DIV>
<DIV>The boy was very happy that his mother did not see his being such a
pig.</DIV>
<DIV>The boy was very happy that his mother did not see his bad
behavior.</DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV>Scott Woods</DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV><BR><BR><BR><BR><BR>--- On <B>Fri, 12/12/08, DD Farms
<I><[log in to unmask]></I></B> wrote:<BR></DIV>
<BLOCKQUOTE style="PADDING-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; BORDER-LEFT:
rgb(16,16,255) 2px solid">From: DD Farms
<[log in to unmask]><BR>Subject: Re: Clause or Phrase<BR>To:
[log in to unmask]<BR>Date: Friday, December 12, 2008, 11:30
PM<BR><BR><PRE>At 10:44 PM 12/12/2008, John Curran wrote:
> The boy was very happy that his mother did not see him being such a
pig.
. . .
DD: The analysis went off into what sort of clause followed, "that."
Arrgh. Shouldn't some attention have been placed on the use of
"him" instead of "his?" If the emphasis is on whom the
mother saw, then I will allow "him," but insist on a comma after. If
the emphasis is on what the mother saw, I suggest it was the action
following a
possessive, "his." It is awkward in the first case, as that comma
might be interpreted to his mother's being the pig. Still, I think that if
you allow less than high standard English to prevail, the possessive and the
gerund connection is ignored.
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</PRE></BLOCKQUOTE></td></tr></table><br>
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<p>
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--0-64264188-1229240090=:87409--
------------------------------
Date: Sun, 14 Dec 2008 09:20:24 -0500
From: Craig Hancock <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Re: Conservatives!
Bob,
I agree with some conservatives much more than I agree with others. I
don't like the views of grammar typical of "progressive" educators.
This sort of response doesn't help. I don't think "conservative" is a
bad name.
ATEG is a conservative organization. Most of the conversation on list is
about whether something is "correct" or about how to classify something,
usually using structural or traditional grammar as the lens. If you are
interested in alternative approaches, as I am, you can feel somewhat
lonely. It's not just that people disagree with those views, but that
there's not the sort of robust discussion about them that there should
be on a grammar list. As groups go, it's a conservative group.
If that's the case, it would make sense that many people would wonder
why we need a scope and sequence. Don't they already exist? Isn't it a
matter of just getting endorsement for the gramamr that's already out
there?
I don't agree with that position, but I can respect it. I can also try
to understand the nature of the difficulties involved in moving forward
with a scope and sequence throught ATEG.
1) NCTE is oppossed to it, and we are an NCTE subgroup.
2) Most people on ATEG adhere to perspectives on gramamr that are
already somewhat established (even if their teaching is not.) Frankly, I
think we would be much better off if we went back to the teaching of
grammar I was given growing up, but we don't necessarily have to do
that. A great deal has happened since the 1950's, much of it so much
more friendly to applications in reading and writing.
Craig>
What an interesting way of characterizing views of grammar that disagree
> with your own!
>
> Craig writes:
>
> My own tendency has been to lobby for new ways of looking at grammar, but
> ATEG has long been an organization made
> up of people with fairly conservative (not regressive, not by a long
> shot) views. This was hard on me because I felt I had a lot invested in
> the project, but would be asked to shut out from the conversation the
> new possibilities in grammar that excite me the most.
>
> ****
> Of course, there is no hostility in characterizing others views with the
> term "fairly conservative."
>
> Craig, I appreciate such an honest appraisal of others views of the nature
> of language.
>
> Bob Yates, University of Central Missouri
>
> To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web interface
> at:
> http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html
> and select "Join or leave the list"
>
> Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/
>
To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web interface
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------------------------------
Date: Sun, 14 Dec 2008 09:38:40 -0500
From: Craig Hancock <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Re: Clause or Phrase
Herb,
Nice analysis. Not sure why I missed it, especially since John asked
for a functional analysis, and this is something very clearly presented
in Halliday.
I like to use these kinds of pairings to show the distinction:
"I saw his slow landing on the river."
"I saw him landing/land slowly on the river."
"I watched his painful demise from cancer."
"I watched him dying/die painfully from cancer."
If,in fact, these participle structures (or infinitive
structures)often bear subjects (as seems true in the second sentence
of each pair), that's another argument for calling them clauses. The
only thing missing is the finite.
What we perceive is often a happening or process, so it makes sense
that we can construe it in that way.
As you say, finding and discovering verbs work a little differently.
Craig>
Why not a third analysis? "being" as a participle, as in "I found him
> fishing in the White River." ""See" allows all three constructions.
> "Find" does not. Other perception verbs allow the participial
> construction as well:
>
> I felt the breeze blowing on my back.
> I smelled the paper burning.
> I heard the sirens blaring as the fire trucks went by.
>
> Herb
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar
> [mailto:[log in to unmask]] On Behalf Of DD Farms
> Sent: 2008-12-13 01:31
> To: [log in to unmask]
> Subject: Re: Clause or Phrase
>
> At 10:44 PM 12/12/2008, John Curran wrote:
>>The boy was very happy that his mother did not see him being such a pig.
> . . .
>
> DD: The analysis went off into what sort of clause followed,
> "that." Arrgh. Shouldn't some attention have been placed on the use
> of "him" instead of "his?" If the emphasis is on whom the mother saw,
> then I will allow "him," but insist on a comma after. If the emphasis
> is on what the mother saw, I suggest it was the action following a
> possessive, "his." It is awkward in the first case, as that comma
> might be interpreted to his mother's being the pig. Still, I think
> that if you allow less than high standard English to prevail, the
> possessive and the gerund connection is ignored.
>
> To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web interface
> at:
> http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html
> and select "Join or leave the list"
>
> Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/
>
> To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web interface
> at:
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> and select "Join or leave the list"
>
> Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/
>
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------------------------------
Date: Sun, 14 Dec 2008 08:28:03 -0800
From: "Paul E. Doniger" <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Re: Engaging in the grammar trenches (was: Conservatives!)
--0-35116534-1229272083=:41507
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
This reminds me of the rather curious observations I have had over the past=
ten years or so: Most of my high school English teaching peers=A0have comm=
ented on the lack of grammar teaching that their students have experienced =
(or seem to have lacked the experience of). Yet few of them have the time o=
r the interest=A0to=A0get involved in the conversation (indeed, may don't s=
eem to know that the conversation even exists). I know that I have too many=
other pulls on my time and interests to devote as much to these issues as =
I would like -- and I've been more involved than most of my peers (my long =
silences are due not to a lack of interest, but to a lack of time). And wit=
h the work load for teachers increasing as it seems to be doing, it doesn't=
look like this will change at any time soon.=0A=A0=0AAlso, I think most uf=
us at the secondary level seem to believe (and perhaps rightly) that the i=
ssues of grammar (which they see as one of error correction mostly) should =
have been dealt with in elementary and middle school. I believe that unless=
elementary and middle school teachers are recruited more dynamically into =
this conversation, change can't happen.=0A=A0=0AWhat are your thoughts & ex=
periences? =0A=A0=0APaul D.=0A=0A=A0"If this were play'd upon a stage now, =
I could condemn it as an improbable fiction" (_Twelfth Night_ 3.4.127-128).=
=0A=0A=0A=0A=0A________________________________=0AFrom: Craig Hancock <han=
[log in to unmask]>=0ATo: [log in to unmask]: Sunday, December 14=
, 2008 9:20:24 AM=0ASubject: Re: Conservatives!=0A=0ABob,=0A=A0 I agree wit=
h some conservatives much more than I agree with others. I=0Adon't like the=
views of grammar typical of "progressive" educators.=0AThis sort of respon=
se doesn't help. I don't think "conservative" is a=0Abad name.=0A=A0 ATEG i=
s a conservative organization. Most of the conversation on list is=0Aabout =
whether something is "correct" or about how to classify something,=0Ausuall=
y using structural or traditional grammar as the lens. If you are=0Ainteres=
ted in alternative approaches, as I am, you can feel somewhat=0Alonely. It'=
s not just that people disagree with those views, but that=0Athere's not th=
e sort of robust discussion about them that there should=0Abe on a grammar =
list. As groups go, it's a conservative group.=0A=A0 If that's the case, it=
would make sense that many people would wonder=0Awhy we need a scope and s=
equence. Don't they already exist? Isn't it a=0Amatter of just getting endo=
rsement for the gramamr that's already out=0Athere?=0A=A0 I don't agree wit=
h that position, but I can respect it. I can also try=0Ato understand the n=
ature of the difficulties involved in moving forward=0Awith a scope and seq=
uence throught ATEG.=0A=A0 1) NCTE is oppossed to it, and we are an NCTE su=
bgroup.=0A=A0 2) Most people on ATEG adhere to perspectives on gramamr that=
are=0Aalready somewhat established (even if their teaching is not.) Frankl=
y, I=0Athink we would be much better off if we went back to the teaching of=
=0Agrammar I was given growing up, but we don't necessarily have to do=0Ath=
at. A great deal has happened since the 1950's, much of it so much=0Amore f=
riendly to applications in reading and writing.=0A=0ACraig>=0A=0AWhat an=A0=
interesting way of characterizing views of grammar that disagree=0A> with =
your own!=0A>=0A> Craig writes:=0A>=0A> My own tendency has been to lobby f=
or new=A0 ways of looking at grammar, but=0A> ATEG has long been an organiz=
ation made=0A> up of people with fairly conservative (not regressive, not b=
y a long=0A> shot) views.=A0 This was hard on me because I felt I had a lot=
invested in=0A> the project, but would be asked to shut out from the conve=
rsation the=0A> new possibilities in grammar that excite me the most.=0A>=
=0A> ****=0A> Of course, there is no hostility in characterizing others vie=
ws with the=0A> term "fairly conservative."=0A>=0A> Craig, I appreciate suc=
h an honest appraisal of others views of the nature=0A> of language.=0A>=0A=
> Bob Yates, University of Central Missouri=0A>=0A> To join or leave this L=
ISTSERV list, please visit the list's web interface=0A> at:=0A>=A0 =A0 =A0 =
http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html=0A> and select "Join or leave=
the list"=0A>=0A> Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/=0A>=0A=0ATo jo=
in or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web interface at:=
=0A=A0 =A0 http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html=0Aand select "Join=
or leave the list"=0A=0AVisit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/=0A
To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web interface
at:
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and select "Join or leave the list"
Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/
--0-35116534-1229272083=:41507
Content-Type: text/html; charset=us-ascii
<html><head><style type="text/css"><!-- DIV {margin:0px;}
--></style></head><body><div style="font-family:bookman old style, new york,
times, serif;font-size:12pt"><DIV></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Verdana>This reminds me of the rather curious observations I
have had over the past ten years or so: Most of my high school English
teaching peers have commented on the lack of grammar teaching that
their students have experienced (or seem to have lacked the experience of).
Yet few of them have the time or the interest to get involved in
the conversation (indeed, may don't seem to know that the conversation even
exists). I know that I have too many other pulls on my time and interests to
devote as much to these issues as I would like -- and I've been more
involved than most of my peers (my long silences are due not to a lack of
interest, but to a lack of time). And with the work load for teachers
increasing as it seems to be doing, it doesn't look like this will change at
any time soon.</FONT></DIV>
<P><FONT face=Verdana></FONT> </P>
<P><FONT face=Verdana>Also, I think most uf us at the secondary level seem
to believe (and perhaps rightly) that the issues of grammar (which they see
as one of error correction mostly) should have been dealt with in elementary
and middle school. I believe that unless elementary and middle school
teachers are recruited more dynamically into this conversation, change can't
happen.</FONT></P>
<P><FONT face=Verdana></FONT> </P>
<P><FONT face=Verdana>What are your thoughts & experiences? </FONT></P>
<P><FONT face=Verdana></FONT> </P>
<P><FONT face=Verdana>Paul D.</FONT></P>
<DIV><BR> </DIV><FONT size=2>"If this were play'd upon a stage now, I
could condemn it as an improbable fiction" (_Twelfth Night_
3.4.127-128).</FONT>
<DIV><BR></DIV>
<DIV style="FONT-SIZE: 12pt; FONT-FAMILY: bookman old style, new york,
times, serif"><BR>
<DIV style="FONT-SIZE: 12pt; FONT-FAMILY: bookman old style, new york,
times, serif"><FONT face=Tahoma size=2>
<HR SIZE=1>
<B><SPAN style="FONT-WEIGHT: bold">From:</SPAN></B> Craig Hancock
<[log in to unmask]><BR><B><SPAN style="FONT-WEIGHT:
bold">To:</SPAN></B> [log in to unmask]<BR><B><SPAN
style="FONT-WEIGHT: bold">Sent:</SPAN></B> Sunday, December 14, 2008 9:20:24
AM<BR><B><SPAN style="FONT-WEIGHT: bold">Subject:</SPAN></B> Re:
Conservatives!<BR></FONT><BR>Bob,<BR> I agree with some conservatives
much more than I agree with others. I<BR>don't like the views of grammar
typical of "progressive" educators.<BR>This sort of response doesn't help. I
don't think "conservative" is a<BR>bad name.<BR> ATEG is a
conservative organization. Most of the conversation on list is<BR>about
whether something is "correct" or about how to classify
something,<BR>usually using structural or traditional grammar as the lens.
If you are<BR>interested in alternative approaches, as I am, you can feel
somewhat<BR>lonely. It's not just that people disagree with those views,
but that<BR>there's not the sort of robust discussion about them that there
should<BR>be on a grammar list. As groups go, it's a conservative
group.<BR> If that's the case, it would make sense that many people
would wonder<BR>why we need a scope and sequence. Don't they already exist?
Isn't it a<BR>matter of just getting endorsement for the gramamr that's
already out<BR>there?<BR> I don't agree with that position, but I can
respect it. I can also try<BR>to understand the nature of the difficulties
involved in moving forward<BR>with a scope and sequence throught
ATEG.<BR> 1) NCTE is oppossed to it, and we are an NCTE
subgroup.<BR> 2) Most people on ATEG adhere to perspectives on gramamr
that are<BR>already somewhat established (even if their teaching is not.)
Frankly, I<BR>think we would be much better off if we went back to the
teaching of<BR>grammar I was given growing up, but we don't necessarily have
to do<BR>that. A great
deal has happened since the 1950's, much of it so much<BR>more friendly to
applications in reading and writing.<BR><BR>Craig><BR><BR>What an
interesting way of characterizing views of grammar that disagree<BR>>
with your own!<BR>><BR>> Craig writes:<BR>><BR>> My own tendency
has been to lobby for new ways of looking at grammar, but<BR>> ATEG
has long been an organization made<BR>> up of people with fairly
conservative (not regressive, not by a long<BR>> shot) views. This
was hard on me because I felt I had a lot invested in<BR>> the project,
but would be asked to shut out from the conversation the<BR>> new
possibilities in grammar that excite me the most.<BR>><BR>>
****<BR>> Of course, there is no hostility in characterizing others views
with the<BR>> term "fairly conservative."<BR>><BR>> Craig, I
appreciate such an honest appraisal of others views of the nature<BR>> of
language.<BR>><BR>> Bob Yates, University of Central
Missouri<BR>><BR>> To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit
the list's web interface<BR>> at:<BR>> <A
href="http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html"
target=_blank>http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html</A><BR>> and
select "Join or leave the list"<BR>><BR>> Visit ATEG's web site at <A
href="http://ateg.org/" target=_blank>http://ateg.org/</A><BR>><BR><BR>To
join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web interface
at:<BR> <A href="http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html"
target=_blank>http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html</A><BR>and
select "Join or leave the list"<BR><BR>Visit ATEG's web site at <A
href="http://ateg.org/"
target=_blank>http://ateg.org/</A><BR></DIV></DIV></div></body></html>
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--0-35116534-1229272083=:41507--
------------------------------
Date: Sun, 14 Dec 2008 11:58:43 -0600
From: Geoffrey Layton <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Re: Engaging in the grammar trenches (was: Conservatives!)
--_3d1fca90-e321-48db-abbf-ad5a8b09df43_
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
From the situation you describe I think has arisen the "grammar in context"=
crowd=2C which as Martha has pointed out is dedicated to teaching the same=
old grammar rules=2C but with a new and more "politically correct" name - =
i.e.=2C one that seems to respond to the NCTE injunction against grammar in=
struction. The problem as I see it is not so much that students don't know=
their adverbials from their adjectivals=2C but that they don't know how to=
use the basic structure/grammar of the language to create the meaning that=
they for the most part are capable of. I think this goes back to the prev=
ious discussion where Bob brought up the structural deficiencies of basic w=
riters and how we as writing teachers have such great difficulties dealing =
with these problems.Geoff Layton
Date: Sun=2C 14 Dec 2008 08:28:03 -0800From: [log in to unmask]: Re: =
Engaging in the grammar trenches (was: Conservatives!)To: [log in to unmask]
HIO.EDU
This reminds me of the rather curious observations I have had over the past=
ten years or so: Most of my high school English teaching peers have commen=
ted on the lack of grammar teaching that their students have experienced (o=
r seem to have lacked the experience of). Yet few of them have the time or =
the interest to get involved in the conversation (indeed=2C may don't seem =
to know that the conversation even exists). I know that I have too many oth=
er pulls on my time and interests to devote as much to these issues as I wo=
uld like -- and I've been more involved than most of my peers (my long sile=
nces are due not to a lack of interest=2C but to a lack of time). And with =
the work load for teachers increasing as it seems to be doing=2C it doesn't=
look like this will change at any time soon.
=20
Also=2C I think most uf us at the secondary level seem to believe (and perh=
aps rightly) that the issues of grammar (which they see as one of error cor=
rection mostly) should have been dealt with in elementary and middle school=
. I believe that unless elementary and middle school teachers are recruited=
more dynamically into this conversation=2C change can't happen.
=20
What are your thoughts & experiences?=20
=20
Paul D.
"If this were play'd upon a stage now=2C I could condemn it as an improbab=
le fiction" (_Twelfth Night_ 3.4.127-128).=20
From: Craig Hancock <[log in to unmask]>To: [log in to unmask]: S=
unday=2C December 14=2C 2008 9:20:24 AMSubject: Re: Conservatives!Bob=2C I=
agree with some conservatives much more than I agree with others. Idon't l=
ike the views of grammar typical of "progressive" educators.This sort of re=
sponse doesn't help. I don't think "conservative" is abad name. ATEG is a =
conservative organization. Most of the conversation on list isabout whether=
something is "correct" or about how to classify something=2Cusually using =
structural or traditional grammar as the lens. If you areinterested in alte=
rnative approaches=2C as I am=2C you can feel somewhatlonely. It's not just=
that people disagree with those views=2C but thatthere's not the sort of r=
obust discussion about them that there shouldbe on a grammar list. As group=
s go=2C it's a conservative group. If that's the case=2C it would make sen=
se that many people would wonderwhy we need a scope and sequence. Don't the=
y already exist? Isn't it amatter of just getting endorsement for the grama=
mr that's already outthere? I don't agree with that position=2C but I can =
respect it. I can also tryto understand the nature of the difficulties invo=
lved in moving forwardwith a scope and sequence throught ATEG. 1) NCTE is =
oppossed to it=2C and we are an NCTE subgroup. 2) Most people on ATEG adhe=
re to perspectives on gramamr that arealready somewhat established (even if=
their teaching is not.) Frankly=2C Ithink we would be much better off if w=
e went back to the teaching ofgrammar I was given growing up=2C but we don'=
t necessarily have to dothat. A great deal has happened since the 1950's=2C=
much of it so muchmore friendly to applications in reading and writing.Cra=
ig>What an interesting way of characterizing views of grammar that disagre=
e> with your own!>> Craig writes:>> My own tendency has been to lobby for n=
ew ways of looking at grammar=2C but> ATEG has long been an organization m=
ade> up of people with fairly conservative (not regressive=2C not by a long=
> shot) views. This was hard on me because I felt I had a lot invested in>=
the project=2C but would be asked to shut out from the conversation the> n=
ew possibilities in grammar that excite me the most.>> ****> Of course=2C t=
here is no hostility in characterizing others views with the> term "fairly =
conservative.">> Craig=2C I appreciate such an honest appraisal of others v=
iews of the nature> of language.>> Bob Yates=2C University of Central Misso=
uri>> To join or leave this LISTSERV list=2C please visit the list's web in=
terface> at:> http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html> and selec=
t "Join or leave the list">> Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/>To j=
oin or leave this LISTSERV list=2C please visit the list's web interface at=
: http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.htmland select "Join or leave=
the list"Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/To join or leave this LI=
STSERV list=2C please visit the list's web interface at: http://listserv.mu=
ohio.edu/archives/ateg.html and select "Join or leave the list"=20
Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/
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From the situation you describe I think has arisen the "grammar in context"=
crowd=2C which as Martha has pointed out is dedicated to teaching the same=
old grammar rules=2C but with a new and more "politically correct" name - =
i.e.=2C one that seems to respond to the NCTE injunction against grammar in=
struction. =3B The problem as I see it is not so much that students don=
't know their adverbials from their adjectivals=2C but that they don't know=
how to use the basic structure/grammar of the language to create the meani=
ng that they for the most part are capable of. =3B I think this goes ba=
ck to the previous discussion where Bob brought up the structural deficienc=
ies of basic writers and how we as writing teachers have such great difficu=
lties dealing with these problems.<BR><BR>Geoff Layton<BR><BR><BR><BR>
<HR id=3DstopSpelling>
Date: Sun=2C 14 Dec 2008 08:28:03 -0800<BR>From: [log in to unmask]<BR>Subje=
ct: Re: Engaging in the grammar trenches (was: Conservatives!)<BR>To: ATEG@=
LISTSERV.MUOHIO.EDU<BR><BR>
<STYLE>
.ExternalClass DIV
{=3B}
</STYLE>
<DIV style=3D"FONT-SIZE: 12pt=3B FONT-FAMILY: bookman old style=2C new york=
=2C times=2C serif">
<DIV></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DVerdana>This reminds me of the rather curious observation=
s I have had over the past ten years or so: Most of my high school English =
teaching peers =3Bhave commented on the lack of grammar teaching that t=
heir students have experienced (or seem to have lacked the experience of). =
Yet few of them have the time or the interest =3Bto =3Bget involved=
in the conversation (indeed=2C may don't seem to know that the conversatio=
n even exists). I know that I have too many other pulls on my time and inte=
rests to devote as much to these issues as I would like -- and I've been mo=
re involved than most of my peers (my long silences are due not to a lack o=
f interest=2C but to a lack of time). And with the work load for teachers i=
ncreasing as it seems to be doing=2C it doesn't look like this will change =
at any time soon.</FONT></DIV>
<FONT face=3DVerdana></FONT> =3B<BR>
<FONT face=3DVerdana>Also=2C I think most uf us at the secondary level seem=
to believe (and perhaps rightly) that the issues of grammar (which they se=
e as one of error correction mostly) should have been dealt with in element=
ary and middle school. I believe that unless elementary and middle school t=
eachers are recruited more dynamically into this conversation=2C change can=
't happen.</FONT><BR>
<FONT face=3DVerdana></FONT> =3B<BR>
<FONT face=3DVerdana>What are your thoughts &=3B experiences? </FONT><BR=
>
<FONT face=3DVerdana></FONT> =3B<BR>
<FONT face=3DVerdana>Paul D.</FONT><BR>
<DIV><BR> =3B</DIV><FONT size=3D2>"If this were play'd upon a stage now=
=2C I could condemn it as an improbable fiction" (_Twelfth Night_ 3.4.127-1=
28).</FONT>=20
<DIV><BR></DIV>
<DIV style=3D"FONT-SIZE: 12pt=3B FONT-FAMILY: bookman old style=2C new york=
=2C times=2C serif"><BR>
<DIV style=3D"FONT-SIZE: 12pt=3B FONT-FAMILY: bookman old style=2C new york=
=2C times=2C serif"><FONT face=3DTahoma size=3D2>
<HR SIZE=3D1>
<B><SPAN style=3D"FONT-WEIGHT: bold">From:</SPAN></B> Craig Hancock <=3Bh=
[log in to unmask]>=3B<BR><B><SPAN style=3D"FONT-WEIGHT: bold">To:</SPAN><=
/B> [log in to unmask]<BR><B><SPAN style=3D"FONT-WEIGHT: bold">Sent:<=
/SPAN></B> Sunday=2C December 14=2C 2008 9:20:24 AM<BR><B><SPAN style=3D"FO=
NT-WEIGHT: bold">Subject:</SPAN></B> Re: Conservatives!<BR></FONT><BR>Bob=
=2C<BR> =3B I agree with some conservatives much more than I agree with=
others. I<BR>don't like the views of grammar typical of "progressive" educ=
ators.<BR>This sort of response doesn't help. I don't think "conservative" =
is a<BR>bad name.<BR> =3B ATEG is a conservative organization. Most of =
the conversation on list is<BR>about whether something is "correct" or abou=
t how to classify something=2C<BR>usually using structural or traditional g=
rammar as the lens. If you are<BR>interested in alternative approaches=2C a=
s I am=2C you can feel somewhat<BR>lonely. It's not just that people disagr=
ee with those views=2C but that<BR>there's not the sort of robust discussio=
n about them that there should<BR>be on a grammar list. As groups go=2C it'=
s a conservative group.<BR> =3B If that's the case=2C it would make sen=
se that many people would wonder<BR>why we need a scope and sequence. Don't=
they already exist? Isn't it a<BR>matter of just getting endorsement for t=
he gramamr that's already out<BR>there?<BR> =3B I don't agree with that=
position=2C but I can respect it. I can also try<BR>to understand the natu=
re of the difficulties involved in moving forward<BR>with a scope and seque=
nce throught ATEG.<BR> =3B 1) NCTE is oppossed to it=2C and we are an N=
CTE subgroup.<BR> =3B 2) Most people on ATEG adhere to perspectives on =
gramamr that are<BR>already somewhat established (even if their teaching is=
not.) Frankly=2C I<BR>think we would be much better off if we went back to=
the teaching of<BR>grammar I was given growing up=2C but we don't necessar=
ily have to do<BR>that. A great deal has happened since the 1950's=2C much =
of it so much<BR>more friendly to applications in reading and writing.<BR><=
BR>Craig>=3B<BR><BR>What an =3B interesting way of characterizing vie=
ws of grammar that disagree<BR>>=3B with your own!<BR>>=3B<BR>>=3B Cr=
aig writes:<BR>>=3B<BR>>=3B My own tendency has been to lobby for new&n=
bsp=3B ways of looking at grammar=2C but<BR>>=3B ATEG has long been an or=
ganization made<BR>>=3B up of people with fairly conservative (not regres=
sive=2C not by a long<BR>>=3B shot) views. =3B This was hard on me be=
cause I felt I had a lot invested in<BR>>=3B the project=2C but would be =
asked to shut out from the conversation the<BR>>=3B new possibilities in =
grammar that excite me the most.<BR>>=3B<BR>>=3B ****<BR>>=3B Of cour=
se=2C there is no hostility in characterizing others views with the<BR>>=
=3B term "fairly conservative."<BR>>=3B<BR>>=3B Craig=2C I appreciate s=
uch an honest appraisal of others views of the nature<BR>>=3B of language=
.<BR>>=3B<BR>>=3B Bob Yates=2C University of Central Missouri<BR>>=3B=
<BR>>=3B To join or leave this LISTSERV list=2C please visit the list's w=
eb interface<BR>>=3B at:<BR>>=3B =3B  =3B  =3B <A href=3D"h=
ttp://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html">http://listserv.muohio.edu/ar=
chives/ateg.html</A><BR>>=3B and select "Join or leave the list"<BR>>=
=3B<BR>>=3B Visit ATEG's web site at <A href=3D"http://ateg.org/">http://=
ateg.org/</A><BR>>=3B<BR><BR>To join or leave this LISTSERV list=2C pleas=
e visit the list's web interface at:<BR> =3B  =3B <A href=3D"http:/=
/listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html">http://listserv.muohio.edu/archive=
s/ateg.html</A><BR>and select "Join or leave the list"<BR><BR>Visit ATEG's =
web site at <A href=3D"http://ateg.org/">http://ateg.org/</A><BR></DIV></DI=
V></DIV>To join or leave this LISTSERV list=2C please visit the list's web =
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n or leave the list"=20
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------------------------------
Date: Sun, 14 Dec 2008 13:03:59 -0500
From: "Veit, Richard" <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Re: Clause or Phrase
This is a multi-part message in MIME format.
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Scott,
=20
The comma certainly makes all the difference in your first and third
sentences, which are certainly not synonymous:
=20
1. The boy was very happy that his mother did not see him being
such a pig.
2. The boy was very happy that his mother did not see him, being
such a pig.
=20
To me the following groupings are more or less synonymous (a with b and
c, d with e and f):
=20
a. The boy was very happy that his mother did not see him being
such a pig.
b. The boy was very happy that his mother did not see his being
such a pig. [a tad awkward for me]
c. The boy was very happy that his mother did not see him in the
act of being such a pig.
=20
d. The boy was very happy that his mother did not see him, being
such a pig.
e. The boy, being such a pig, was very happy that his mother did
not see him.
f. The boy was very happy that his mother did not see him, because
he was such a pig.
=20
Dick Veit
=20
________________________________
From: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar
[mailto:[log in to unmask]] On Behalf Of Scott Woods
Sent: Sunday, December 14, 2008 2:35 AM
To: [log in to unmask]
Subject: Re: Clause or Phrase
=20
Are these pairs basically synonymous to you and are they punctuated
correctly?
=20
The boy was very happy that his mother did not see him being such a pig.
The boy was very happy that his mother did not see him eating so
greedily.
The boy was very happy that his mother did not see him, being such a
pig.
The boy was very happy that his mother did not see him, being such a
duplicitous boy.
The boy was very happy that his mother did not see his being such a pig.
The boy was very happy that his mother did not see his bad behavior.
=20
Scott Woods
=20
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<div class=3DSection1>
<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D2 color=3Dnavy face=3DArial><span =
style=3D'font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy'>Scott,</span></font></p>
<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D2 color=3Dnavy face=3DArial><span =
style=3D'font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy'> </span></font></p>
<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D2 color=3Dnavy face=3DArial><span =
style=3D'font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy'>The comma certainly makes all the
difference in your first and third sentences, which are certainly =
<i><span
style=3D'font-style:italic'>not</span></i> synonymous:</span></font></p>
<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D2 color=3Dnavy face=3DArial><span =
style=3D'font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy'> </span></font></p>
<ol style=3D'margin-top:0in' start=3D1 type=3D1>
<li class=3DMsoNormal style=3D'color:navy'><font size=3D3 color=3Dblack
face=3D"Times New Roman"><span =
style=3D'font-size:12.0pt;color:windowtext'>The
boy was very happy that his mother did not see him being such a =
pig.</span></font></li>
<li class=3DMsoNormal style=3D'color:navy'><font size=3D3 color=3Dblack
face=3D"Times New Roman"><span =
style=3D'font-size:12.0pt;color:windowtext'>The
boy was very happy that his mother did not see him, being such a =
pig.</span></font></li>
</ol>
<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D2 color=3Dnavy face=3DArial><span =
style=3D'font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy'> </span></font></p>
<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D2 color=3Dnavy face=3DArial><span =
style=3D'font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy'>To me the following groupings are =
more or
less synonymous (a with b and c, d with e and f):</span></font></p>
<p class=3DMsoNormal style=3D'margin-left:.25in'><font size=3D3 =
face=3D"Times New Roman"><span
style=3D'font-size:12.0pt'> </span></font></p>
<ol style=3D'margin-top:0in' start=3D1 type=3Da>
<li class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D3 face=3D"Times New Roman"><span
style=3D'font-size:12.0pt'>The boy was very happy that his mother =
did not
see him being such a pig.</span></font></li>
<li class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D3 face=3D"Times New Roman"><span
style=3D'font-size:12.0pt'>The boy was very happy that his mother =
did not
see his being such a pig. </span></font><font size=3D2 =
color=3Dnavy
face=3DArial><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy'>[a
tad awkward for me]</span></font></li>
<li class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D3 face=3D"Times New Roman"><span
style=3D'font-size:12.0pt'>The boy was very happy that his mother =
did not
see him in the act of being such a pig.<br>
</span></font></li>
<li class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D3 face=3D"Times New Roman"><span
style=3D'font-size:12.0pt'>The boy was very happy that his mother =
did not
see him, being such a pig.</span></font></li>
<li class=3DMsoNormal style=3D'color:navy'><font size=3D3 color=3Dblack
face=3D"Times New Roman"><span =
style=3D'font-size:12.0pt;color:windowtext'>The
boy, being such a pig, was very happy that his mother did not see =
him.</span></font></li>
<li class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D3 face=3D"Times New Roman"><span
style=3D'font-size:12.0pt'>The boy was very happy that his mother =
did not
see him, because he was such a pig.</span></font></li>
</ol>
<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D2 color=3Dnavy face=3DArial><span =
style=3D'font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy'> </span></font></p>
<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D2 color=3Dnavy face=3DArial><span =
style=3D'font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy'>Dick Veit</span></font></p>
<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D2 color=3Dnavy face=3DArial><span =
style=3D'font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy'> </span></font></p>
<div>
<div class=3DMsoNormal align=3Dcenter style=3D'text-align:center'><font =
size=3D3
face=3D"Times New Roman"><span style=3D'font-size:12.0pt'>
<hr size=3D2 width=3D"100%" align=3Dcenter tabindex=3D-1>
</span></font></div>
<p class=3DMsoNormal><b><font size=3D2 face=3DTahoma><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;
font-family:Tahoma;font-weight:bold'>From:</span></font></b><font =
size=3D2
face=3DTahoma><span style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Tahoma'> =
Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar =
[mailto:[log in to unmask]] <b><span
style=3D'font-weight:bold'>On Behalf Of </span></b>Scott Woods<br>
<b><span style=3D'font-weight:bold'>Sent:</span></b> Sunday, December =
14, 2008
2:35 AM<br>
<b><span style=3D'font-weight:bold'>To:</span></b> =
[log in to unmask]<br>
<b><span style=3D'font-weight:bold'>Subject:</span></b> Re: Clause or =
Phrase</span></font></p>
</div>
<table class=3DMsoNormalTable border=3D0 cellspacing=3D0 =
cellpadding=3D0>
<tr>
<td valign=3Dtop style=3D'padding:0in 0in 0in 0in'>
<div>
<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D3 face=3D"Times New Roman"><span
style=3D'font-size:12.0pt'> </span></font></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D3 face=3D"Times New Roman"><span
style=3D'font-size:12.0pt'>Are these pairs basically synonymous to you =
and are
they punctuated correctly?</span></font></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D3 face=3D"Times New Roman"><span
style=3D'font-size:12.0pt'> </span></font></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3DMsoNormal style=3D'margin-left:.5in'><font size=3D3
face=3D"Times New Roman"><span style=3D'font-size:12.0pt'>The boy was =
very happy
that his mother did not see him being such a pig.</span></font></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3DMsoNormal style=3D'margin-left:.5in'><font size=3D3
face=3D"Times New Roman"><span style=3D'font-size:12.0pt'>The boy was =
very happy
that his mother did not see him eating so greedily.</span></font></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3DMsoNormal style=3D'margin-left:.5in'><font size=3D3
face=3D"Times New Roman"><span style=3D'font-size:12.0pt'>The boy was =
very happy
that his mother did not see him, being such a pig.</span></font></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3DMsoNormal style=3D'margin-left:.5in'><font size=3D3
face=3D"Times New Roman"><span style=3D'font-size:12.0pt'>The boy was =
very happy
that his mother did not see him, being such a duplicitous =
boy.</span></font></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3DMsoNormal style=3D'margin-left:.5in'><font size=3D3
face=3D"Times New Roman"><span style=3D'font-size:12.0pt'>The boy was =
very happy
that his mother did not see his being such a pig.</span></font></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3DMsoNormal style=3D'margin-left:.5in'><font size=3D3
face=3D"Times New Roman"><span style=3D'font-size:12.0pt'>The boy was =
very happy
that his mother did not see his bad behavior.</span></font></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D3 face=3D"Times New Roman"><span
style=3D'font-size:12.0pt'> </span></font></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D3 face=3D"Times New Roman"><span
style=3D'font-size:12.0pt'>Scott Woods</span></font></p>
</div>
</td>
</tr>
</table>
<p><font size=3D3 face=3D"Times New Roman"><span =
style=3D'font-size:12.0pt'> </span></font></p>
</div>
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and select "Join or leave the list"
<p>
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------_=_NextPart_001_01C95E16.56893943--
------------------------------
Date: Sun, 14 Dec 2008 13:05:46 -0500
From: "STAHLKE, HERBERT F" <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Re: Clause or Phrase
--_000_0DDF38BA66ECD847B39F1FD4C801D5431163F8F070EMAILBACKEND0_
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Who's "such a pig" in (2)?
Herb
From: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar [mailto:[log in to unmask]
OHIO.EDU] On Behalf Of Veit, Richard
Sent: 2008-12-14 13:04
To: [log in to unmask]
Subject: Re: Clause or Phrase
Scott,
The comma certainly makes all the difference in your first and third senten=
ces, which are certainly not synonymous:
1. The boy was very happy that his mother did not see him being such a pi=
g.
2. The boy was very happy that his mother did not see him, being such a p=
ig.
To me the following groupings are more or less synonymous (a with b and c, =
d with e and f):
1. The boy was very happy that his mother did not see him being such a pi=
g.
2. The boy was very happy that his mother did not see his being such a pi=
g. [a tad awkward for me]
3. The boy was very happy that his mother did not see him in the act of b=
eing such a pig.
4. The boy was very happy that his mother did not see him, being such a p=
ig.
5. The boy, being such a pig, was very happy that his mother did not see =
him.
6. The boy was very happy that his mother did not see him, because he was=
such a pig.
Dick Veit
________________________________
From: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar [mailto:[log in to unmask]
OHIO.EDU] On Behalf Of Scott Woods
Sent: Sunday, December 14, 2008 2:35 AM
To: [log in to unmask]
Subject: Re: Clause or Phrase
Are these pairs basically synonymous to you and are they punctuated correct=
ly?
The boy was very happy that his mother did not see him being such a pig.
The boy was very happy that his mother did not see him eating so greedily.
The boy was very happy that his mother did not see him, being such a pig.
The boy was very happy that his mother did not see him, being such a duplic=
itous boy.
The boy was very happy that his mother did not see his being such a pig.
The boy was very happy that his mother did not see his bad behavior.
Scott Woods
To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web interface =
at: http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html and select "Join or leave=
the list"
Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/
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<div class=3DSection1>
<p class=3DMsoNormal><span style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",=
"sans-serif";
color:#1F497D'>Who’s “such a pig” in (2)?<o:p></o:p></spa=
n></p>
<p class=3DMsoNormal><span style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",=
"sans-serif";
color:#1F497D'><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class=3DMsoNormal><span style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",=
"sans-serif";
color:#1F497D'>Herb<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3DMsoNormal><span style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",=
"sans-serif";
color:#1F497D'><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<div>
<div style=3D'border:none;border-top:solid #B5C4DF 1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0in =
0in 0in'>
<p class=3DMsoNormal><b><span style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma=
","sans-serif"'>From:</span></b><span
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"'> Assembly for =
the
Teaching of English Grammar [mailto:[log in to unmask]] <b>On Behalf =
Of </b>Veit,
Richard<br>
<b>Sent:</b> 2008-12-14 13:04<br>
<b>To:</b> [log in to unmask]<br>
<b>Subject:</b> Re: Clause or Phrase<o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
</div>
<p class=3DMsoNormal><o:p> </o:p></p>
<p class=3DMsoNormal><span style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","s=
ans-serif";
color:navy'>Scott,</span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3DMsoNormal><span style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","s=
ans-serif";
color:navy'> </span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3DMsoNormal><span style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","s=
ans-serif";
color:navy'>The comma certainly makes all the difference in your first and
third sentences, which are certainly <i>not</i> synonymous:</span><o:p></o:=
p></p>
<p class=3DMsoNormal><span style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","s=
ans-serif";
color:navy'> </span><o:p></o:p></p>
<ol style=3D'margin-top:0in' start=3D1 type=3D1>
<li class=3DMsoNormal style=3D'color:navy;mso-list:l0 level1 lfo1'><span
style=3D'color:windowtext'>The boy was very happy that his mother did =
not
see him being such a pig.</span><o:p></o:p></li>
<li class=3DMsoNormal style=3D'color:navy;mso-list:l0 level1 lfo1'><span
style=3D'color:windowtext'>The boy was very happy that his mother did =
not
see him, being such a pig.</span><o:p></o:p></li>
</ol>
<p class=3DMsoNormal><span style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","s=
ans-serif";
color:navy'> </span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3DMsoNormal><span style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","s=
ans-serif";
color:navy'>To me the following groupings are more or less synonymous (a wi=
th b
and c, d with e and f):</span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3DMsoNormal style=3D'margin-left:.25in'> <o:p></o:p></p>
<ol style=3D'margin-top:0in' start=3D1 type=3Da>
<li class=3DMsoNormal style=3D'mso-list:l1 level1 lfo2'>The boy was very h=
appy
that his mother did not see him being such a pig.<o:p></o:p></li>
<li class=3DMsoNormal style=3D'mso-list:l1 level1 lfo2'>The boy was very h=
appy
that his mother did not see his being such a pig. <span
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";color:navy'=
>[a
tad awkward for me]</span><o:p></o:p></li>
<li class=3DMsoNormal style=3D'mso-list:l1 level1 lfo2'>The boy was very h=
appy
that his mother did not see him in the act of being such a pig.<br>
<o:p></o:p></li>
<li class=3DMsoNormal style=3D'mso-list:l1 level1 lfo2'>The boy was very h=
appy
that his mother did not see him, being such a pig.<o:p></o:p></li>
<li class=3DMsoNormal style=3D'color:navy;mso-list:l1 level1 lfo2'><span
style=3D'color:windowtext'>The boy, being such a pig, was very happy t=
hat
his mother did not see him.</span><o:p></o:p></li>
<li class=3DMsoNormal style=3D'mso-list:l1 level1 lfo2'>The boy was very h=
appy
that his mother did not see him, because he was such a pig.<o:p></o:p>=
</li>
</ol>
<p class=3DMsoNormal><span style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","s=
ans-serif";
color:navy'> </span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3DMsoNormal><span style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","s=
ans-serif";
color:navy'>Dick Veit</span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3DMsoNormal><span style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","s=
ans-serif";
color:navy'> </span><o:p></o:p></p>
<div>
<div class=3DMsoNormal align=3Dcenter style=3D'text-align:center'>
<hr size=3D2 width=3D"100%" align=3Dcenter>
</div>
<p class=3DMsoNormal><b><span style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma=
","sans-serif"'>From:</span></b><span
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"'> Assembly for =
the
Teaching of English Grammar [mailto:[log in to unmask]] <b>On Behalf =
Of </b>Scott
Woods<br>
<b>Sent:</b> Sunday, December 14, 2008 2:35 AM<br>
<b>To:</b> [log in to unmask]<br>
<b>Subject:</b> Re: Clause or Phrase</span><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<table class=3DMsoNormalTable border=3D0 cellspacing=3D0 cellpadding=3D0>
<tr>
<td valign=3Dtop style=3D'padding:0in 0in 0in 0in'>
<div>
<p class=3DMsoNormal> <o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3DMsoNormal>Are these pairs basically synonymous to you and are =
they
punctuated correctly?<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3DMsoNormal> <o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3DMsoNormal style=3D'margin-left:.5in'>The boy was very happy th=
at his
mother did not see him being such a pig.<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3DMsoNormal style=3D'margin-left:.5in'>The boy was very happy th=
at his
mother did not see him eating so greedily.<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3DMsoNormal style=3D'margin-left:.5in'>The boy was very happy th=
at his
mother did not see him, being such a pig.<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3DMsoNormal style=3D'margin-left:.5in'>The boy was very happy th=
at his
mother did not see him, being such a duplicitous boy.<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3DMsoNormal style=3D'margin-left:.5in'>The boy was very happy th=
at his
mother did not see his being such a pig.<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3DMsoNormal style=3D'margin-left:.5in'>The boy was very happy th=
at his
mother did not see his bad behavior.<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3DMsoNormal> <o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3DMsoNormal>Scott Woods<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
</td>
</tr>
</table>
<p> <o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3DMsoNormal>To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the =
list's
web interface at: http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html and select
"Join or leave the list" <o:p></o:p></p>
<p>Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/ <o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
</body>
</html>
To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web interface
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<p>
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--_000_0DDF38BA66ECD847B39F1FD4C801D5431163F8F070EMAILBACKEND0_--
------------------------------
Date: Sun, 14 Dec 2008 14:13:33 -0500
From: "Veit, Richard" <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Re: Clause or Phrase
This is a multi-part message in MIME format.
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Ambiguous to be sure, but I was considering the reading where the boy is
the pig.
=20
________________________________
From: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar
[mailto:[log in to unmask]] On Behalf Of STAHLKE, HERBERT F
Sent: Sunday, December 14, 2008 1:06 PM
To: [log in to unmask]
Subject: Re: Clause or Phrase
=20
Who's "such a pig" in (2)?
=20
Herb
=20
From: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar
[mailto:[log in to unmask]] On Behalf Of Veit, Richard
Sent: 2008-12-14 13:04
To: [log in to unmask]
Subject: Re: Clause or Phrase
=20
Scott,
=20
The comma certainly makes all the difference in your first and third
sentences, which are certainly not synonymous:
=20
1. The boy was very happy that his mother did not see him being
such a pig.
2. The boy was very happy that his mother did not see him, being
such a pig.
=20
To me the following groupings are more or less synonymous (a with b and
c, d with e and f):
=20
a. The boy was very happy that his mother did not see him being
such a pig.
b. The boy was very happy that his mother did not see his being
such a pig. [a tad awkward for me]
c. The boy was very happy that his mother did not see him in the
act of being such a pig.
=20
d. The boy was very happy that his mother did not see him, being
such a pig.
e. The boy, being such a pig, was very happy that his mother did
not see him.
f. The boy was very happy that his mother did not see him, because
he was such a pig.
=20
Dick Veit
=20
________________________________
From: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar
[mailto:[log in to unmask]] On Behalf Of Scott Woods
Sent: Sunday, December 14, 2008 2:35 AM
To: [log in to unmask]
Subject: Re: Clause or Phrase
=20
Are these pairs basically synonymous to you and are they punctuated
correctly?
=20
The boy was very happy that his mother did not see him being such a pig.
The boy was very happy that his mother did not see him eating so
greedily.
The boy was very happy that his mother did not see him, being such a
pig.
The boy was very happy that his mother did not see him, being such a
duplicitous boy.
The boy was very happy that his mother did not see his being such a pig.
The boy was very happy that his mother did not see his bad behavior.
=20
Scott Woods
=20
To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web
interface at: http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html and select
"Join or leave the list"=20
Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/=20
To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web
interface at: http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html and select
"Join or leave the list"=20
Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/
To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web interface
at:
http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html
and select "Join or leave the list"
Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/
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<div class=3DSection1>
<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D2 color=3Dnavy face=3DArial><span =
style=3D'font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy'>Ambiguous to be sure, but I was =
considering
the reading where the boy is the pig.</span></font></p>
<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D2 color=3Dnavy face=3DArial><span =
style=3D'font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy'> </span></font></p>
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<div class=3DMsoNormal align=3Dcenter style=3D'text-align:center'><font =
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<p class=3DMsoNormal><b><font size=3D2 face=3DTahoma><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;
font-family:Tahoma;font-weight:bold'>From:</span></font></b><font =
size=3D2
face=3DTahoma><span style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Tahoma'> =
Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar =
[mailto:[log in to unmask]] <b><span
style=3D'font-weight:bold'>On Behalf Of </span></b>STAHLKE, HERBERT =
F<br>
<b><span style=3D'font-weight:bold'>Sent:</span></b> Sunday, December =
14, 2008 1:06
PM<br>
<b><span style=3D'font-weight:bold'>To:</span></b> =
[log in to unmask]<br>
<b><span style=3D'font-weight:bold'>Subject:</span></b> Re: Clause or =
Phrase</span></font></p>
</div>
<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D3 face=3D"Times New Roman"><span =
style=3D'font-size:
12.0pt'> </span></font></p>
<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D2 color=3D"#1f497d" =
face=3DCalibri><span
style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:Calibri;color:#1F497D'>Who’s =
“such
a pig” in (2)?</span></font></p>
<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D2 color=3D"#1f497d" =
face=3DCalibri><span
style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:Calibri;color:#1F497D'> </span=
></font></p>
<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D2 color=3D"#1f497d" =
face=3DCalibri><span
style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:Calibri;color:#1F497D'>Herb</span><=
/font></p>
<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D2 color=3D"#1f497d" =
face=3DCalibri><span
style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:Calibri;color:#1F497D'> </span=
></font></p>
<div>
<div style=3D'border:none;border-top:solid #B5C4DF 1.0pt;padding:3.0pt =
0in 0in 0in'>
<p class=3DMsoNormal><b><font size=3D2 face=3DTahoma><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;
font-family:Tahoma;font-weight:bold'>From:</span></font></b><font =
size=3D2
face=3DTahoma><span style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Tahoma'> =
Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar =
[mailto:[log in to unmask]] <b><span
style=3D'font-weight:bold'>On Behalf Of </span></b>Veit, Richard<br>
<b><span style=3D'font-weight:bold'>Sent:</span></b> 2008-12-14 =
13:04<br>
<b><span style=3D'font-weight:bold'>To:</span></b> =
[log in to unmask]<br>
<b><span style=3D'font-weight:bold'>Subject:</span></b> Re: Clause or =
Phrase</span></font></p>
</div>
</div>
<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D3 face=3D"Times New Roman"><span =
style=3D'font-size:
12.0pt'> </span></font></p>
<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D2 color=3Dnavy face=3DArial><span =
style=3D'font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy'>Scott,</span></font></p>
<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D2 color=3Dnavy face=3DArial><span =
style=3D'font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy'> </span></font></p>
<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D2 color=3Dnavy face=3DArial><span =
style=3D'font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy'>The comma certainly makes all the
difference in your first and third sentences, which are certainly =
<i><span
style=3D'font-style:italic'>not</span></i> synonymous:</span></font></p>
<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D2 color=3Dnavy face=3DArial><span =
style=3D'font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy'> </span></font></p>
<ol style=3D'margin-top:0in' start=3D1 type=3D1>
<li class=3DMsoNormal style=3D'color:navy'><font size=3D3 color=3Dblack
face=3D"Times New Roman"><span =
style=3D'font-size:12.0pt;color:windowtext'>The
boy was very happy that his mother did not see him being such a =
pig.</span></font></li>
<li class=3DMsoNormal style=3D'color:navy'><font size=3D3 color=3Dblack
face=3D"Times New Roman"><span =
style=3D'font-size:12.0pt;color:windowtext'>The
boy was very happy that his mother did not see him, being such a =
pig.</span></font></li>
</ol>
<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D2 color=3Dnavy face=3DArial><span =
style=3D'font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy'> </span></font></p>
<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D2 color=3Dnavy face=3DArial><span =
style=3D'font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy'>To me the following groupings are =
more or
less synonymous (a with b and c, d with e and f):</span></font></p>
<p class=3DMsoNormal style=3D'margin-left:.25in'><font size=3D3 =
face=3D"Times New Roman"><span
style=3D'font-size:12.0pt'> </span></font></p>
<ol style=3D'margin-top:0in' start=3D1 type=3Da>
<li class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D3 face=3D"Times New Roman"><span
style=3D'font-size:12.0pt'>The boy was very happy that his mother =
did not
see him being such a pig.</span></font></li>
<li class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D3 face=3D"Times New Roman"><span
style=3D'font-size:12.0pt'>The boy was very happy that his mother =
did not
see his being such a pig. </span></font><font size=3D2 =
color=3Dnavy
face=3DArial><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy'>[a
tad awkward for me]</span></font></li>
<li class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D3 face=3D"Times New Roman"><span
style=3D'font-size:12.0pt'>The boy was very happy that his mother =
did not
see him in the act of being such a pig.<br>
</span></font></li>
<li class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D3 face=3D"Times New Roman"><span
style=3D'font-size:12.0pt'>The boy was very happy that his mother =
did not
see him, being such a pig.</span></font></li>
<li class=3DMsoNormal style=3D'color:navy'><font size=3D3 color=3Dblack
face=3D"Times New Roman"><span =
style=3D'font-size:12.0pt;color:windowtext'>The
boy, being such a pig, was very happy that his mother did not see =
him.</span></font></li>
<li class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D3 face=3D"Times New Roman"><span
style=3D'font-size:12.0pt'>The boy was very happy that his mother =
did not
see him, because he was such a pig.</span></font></li>
</ol>
<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D2 color=3Dnavy face=3DArial><span =
style=3D'font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy'> </span></font></p>
<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D2 color=3Dnavy face=3DArial><span =
style=3D'font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy'>Dick Veit</span></font></p>
<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D2 color=3Dnavy face=3DArial><span =
style=3D'font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy'> </span></font></p>
<div>
<div class=3DMsoNormal align=3Dcenter style=3D'text-align:center'><font =
size=3D3
face=3D"Times New Roman"><span style=3D'font-size:12.0pt'>
<hr size=3D2 width=3D"100%" align=3Dcenter>
</span></font></div>
<p class=3DMsoNormal><b><font size=3D2 face=3DTahoma><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;
font-family:Tahoma;font-weight:bold'>From:</span></font></b><font =
size=3D2
face=3DTahoma><span style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Tahoma'> =
Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar =
[mailto:[log in to unmask]] <b><span
style=3D'font-weight:bold'>On Behalf Of </span></b>Scott Woods<br>
<b><span style=3D'font-weight:bold'>Sent:</span></b> Sunday, December =
14, 2008
2:35 AM<br>
<b><span style=3D'font-weight:bold'>To:</span></b> =
[log in to unmask]<br>
<b><span style=3D'font-weight:bold'>Subject:</span></b> Re: Clause or =
Phrase</span></font></p>
</div>
<table class=3DMsoNormalTable border=3D0 cellspacing=3D0 =
cellpadding=3D0>
<tr>
<td valign=3Dtop style=3D'padding:0in 0in 0in 0in'>
<div>
<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D3 face=3D"Times New Roman"><span
style=3D'font-size:12.0pt'> </span></font></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D3 face=3D"Times New Roman"><span
style=3D'font-size:12.0pt'>Are these pairs basically synonymous to you =
and are
they punctuated correctly?</span></font></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D3 face=3D"Times New Roman"><span
style=3D'font-size:12.0pt'> </span></font></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3DMsoNormal style=3D'margin-left:.5in'><font size=3D3
face=3D"Times New Roman"><span style=3D'font-size:12.0pt'>The boy was =
very happy
that his mother did not see him being such a pig.</span></font></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3DMsoNormal style=3D'margin-left:.5in'><font size=3D3
face=3D"Times New Roman"><span style=3D'font-size:12.0pt'>The boy was =
very happy
that his mother did not see him eating so greedily.</span></font></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3DMsoNormal style=3D'margin-left:.5in'><font size=3D3
face=3D"Times New Roman"><span style=3D'font-size:12.0pt'>The boy was =
very happy
that his mother did not see him, being such a pig.</span></font></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3DMsoNormal style=3D'margin-left:.5in'><font size=3D3
face=3D"Times New Roman"><span style=3D'font-size:12.0pt'>The boy was =
very happy
that his mother did not see him, being such a duplicitous =
boy.</span></font></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3DMsoNormal style=3D'margin-left:.5in'><font size=3D3
face=3D"Times New Roman"><span style=3D'font-size:12.0pt'>The boy was =
very happy
that his mother did not see his being such a pig.</span></font></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3DMsoNormal style=3D'margin-left:.5in'><font size=3D3
face=3D"Times New Roman"><span style=3D'font-size:12.0pt'>The boy was =
very happy
that his mother did not see his bad behavior.</span></font></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D3 face=3D"Times New Roman"><span
style=3D'font-size:12.0pt'> </span></font></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D3 face=3D"Times New Roman"><span
style=3D'font-size:12.0pt'>Scott Woods</span></font></p>
</div>
</td>
</tr>
</table>
<p><font size=3D3 face=3D"Times New Roman"><span =
style=3D'font-size:12.0pt'> </span></font></p>
<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D3 face=3D"Times New Roman"><span =
style=3D'font-size:
12.0pt'>To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web
interface at: http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html and select
"Join or leave the list" </span></font></p>
<p><font size=3D3 face=3D"Times New Roman"><span =
style=3D'font-size:12.0pt'>Visit
ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/ </span></font></p>
</div>
</body>
</html>
To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web =
interface at:
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and select "Join or leave the list"
<p>
Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/
To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web interface
at:
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and select "Join or leave the list"
<p>
Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/
------_=_NextPart_001_01C95E20.0ED74AB1--
------------------------------
Date: Sun, 14 Dec 2008 15:10:16 -0600
From: John Dews-Alexander <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Re: scope and sequence: was clause or phrase
------=_Part_30284_11826940.1229289016352
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Content-Disposition: inline
Thanks for the update, Craig! It seems ATEG still has its work cut out for
it in convincing NCTE to recognize the value of teaching grammar and other
features of language explicitly as an integral part of the language arts
curriculum. It's good to know that a scope and sequence plan can still be
hammered out by a group not related to NCTE (although I'm sure ATEG members
and the discussions here can still be of immense value to that endeavor).
When the day arrives that NCTE endorses grammar teaching, there will likely
be a scramble for as many articulated plans as possible!
John Alexander
Austin, Texas
On Sat, Dec 13, 2008 at 10:35 AM, Craig Hancock <[log in to unmask]> wrote:
> Richard,
> Scope and sequence is in a bit of hiatus. This might be a good time to
> talk about the reasons for that and the difficulties around doing that
> through ATEG.
> My own frustration dates back to two conferences ago, when I thought we
> would make great progress on scope and sequence at the conference. My
plan,
> which I thought was agreed on by the conference committee, was to break
into
> subgroups and have people make suggestions about what might be covered. We
> could have a sub-group making recommendations about Standard English,
> punctuation, and so on, focusing on the knowledge about language that wold
> be most helpful and useful. I was hoping people would then feel a vested
> interest in the project. There was resistance, though, from different
> sources. Some people questioned whether ATEG, as a sub-group of NCTE,
should
> be taking a position on grammar at odds with our parent organization. That
> conflict of interest has been a constant issue in ATEG, and I don't fault
> anyone from bringing it up. One result was that we largely used our time
to
> construct a position statement asking NCTE to endorse the systematic
> teaching of grammar. The position statement, which I thought was very
> thoughtful and nicely written, was simply tabled at the NCTE convention.
In
> other words, ATEG tried to work through official channels as a sub-group
of
> NCTE, ibut was stymied by those who feel they know more about this than we
> do and who, in effect, control our existence as an organization.
> The other problem came from those at the conference, including the
> leadership, who feel that scope and sequence already exists and that we
have
> no need to construct one. My own tendency has been to lobby for new ways
of
> looking at grammar, but ATEG has long been an organization made up of
people
> with fairly conservative (not regressive, not by a long shot) views. This
> was hard on me because I felt I had a lot invested in the project, but
would
> be asked to shut out from the conversation the new possibilities in
grammar
> that excite me the most.
> But let me give a more friendly view of that. Many of us involved in the
> project have written books on the subject, and you can't really do that
> without engaging the issue in ways that you feel invested in. What happens
> if the group advocates a scope that doesn't fit those views? I sometimes
> feel I am shooting myself in the foot every time I move on in my thinking
> because I have a 2005 text that now constitutes an older position.
> This might be a way of saying that those of us who know the most tend to
> have an investment in particular approaches. For ATEG as a whole, those
> approaches have probably already been written.
> As many of you know, much of the conversation about scope and sequence
was
> worked out by the New Public Grammar group. I have never wanted that group
> to be in conflict (to compete with) ATEG. So at that point, I didn't even
> feel comfortable airing these frustrations on the NPG list. I was, and
still
> am, nervous about creating a rift in the public grammar community. I
didn't
> want anyone to feel I was trying to pull people away from ATEG.
> The unfortunate result has been that Scope and sequence hasn't moved
> forward for some time. A few of us have been in discussion about starting
it
> back up again as we restart talk on the NPG list.
> NPG has the benefit of being separate from NCTE. It can take a strong
> contrary perspective and not feel uncomfortable about that.
> It can also maintain friendly relationships with ATEG without the
> necessity of ATEG endorsing its views.
> I apologize if I have misrepresented anyone's views or anyone else's
> views about the history of the project. I don't think of it as anyone
being
> at fault. These are very predictable difficulties given the nature of the
> project.
>
> Craig
>
>
> Richard betting wrote:
>
>> Janet, Craig, et al. continued
>> One of the reasons I tend to believe in the innateness of some
>> grammatical structures is that children can understand the kinds of
>> sentences that have been used in recent posts. For example, a first
grader
>> will understand this exchange: "If you continue to behave badly, you will
>> not get a present" leads, later in the day, to "That you won't get a
present
>> is very obvious." Another example results in the prepositional phrase as
>> subject. "He said that he would leave at nine" might lead to "For him to
>> leave at nine means that we'll have to finish our project quickly." I got
>> those kinds of sentences and explanations from my study of generative
>> grammar forty years ago. Transformations. The second called the T For To
>> transform.
>> A comment and a question. The naming of parts: are word groups phrases
>> or clauses, participial phrases or clauses and should we call them one-
or
>> two-object verbs? Are these transitive or intransitive structures, finite
or
>> non-finite verbs, and are these adjective, qualifying, complementary or
>> appositional clauses or phrases? Are they complex transitive, di- or
>> bi-transitive? Will R & K diagrams help explain them and will students
be
>> able to distinguish form from function? Are participles and infinitives
>> parts of speech? Why or why not? How many parts of speech are there,
anyway?
>> And finally, what is the relationship between the naming of parts and
>> improvement in student speaking and writing? Do teachers consciously and
>> consistently make those connections between theory and practice? Are
>> students being asked to write and speak and are they creating portfolios
of
>> written work to demonstrate their competence? And are they participating
in
>> the assessment process?
>>
>> I would bet that the majority of middle school/high school English
>> teachers would not be able to define and explain the terms that have been
>> discussed, to say nothing of doing so from the perspective of more than
one
>> grammatical approach. That is not to criticize the teachers themselves so
>> much as to ask about the educational process shat enabled them to get
where
>> they are without an adequate knowledge of the English language that they
>> spend so much time teaching. In order to have an ADEQUATE (minimal)
>> background in English, what courses should/must all language arts
teachers
>> have? Could we agree on the required courses? Do current textbooks (for
>> teachers) meet the content requirement we might create? Is anyone still
>> working on scope and sequence?
>>
>> Is the current discussion helping create a consensus on these and other
>> issues that we should be helping decide? Unfortunately, perhaps, the end
>> result seems to be that each person will create his/her own curriculum.
If
>> English teachers don't take the opportunity now, someone else will, as
>> NoChild evolves and insupportable standards (like the naming of grammar
>> parts) are created. So much to do, so little time.
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> On Dec 12, 2008, at 3:13 PM, Spruiell, William C wrote:
>>
>> Janet, Craig, et al.
>>>
>>> There are a number of traditional grammars that would call the 'me' in
>>> 'Joe baked a cake for me' an indirect object. In Latin, the pronoun
>>> would be in the dative case, and "indirect object" started out as a
>>> label that meant, basically, "dative object, as opposed to accusative
>>> object."
>>>
>>> There's a major stress point in the traditional system, though -- the
>>> noun that normally goes with a preposition is usually called "the object
>>> of the preposition," and it can't be *both* an indirect object and the
>>> object of the preposition (keep in mind that the traditional approach
>>> always asks, 'what word does this go with,' so you have to say either
>>> 'the verb' or 'the preposition' with one of these). Some earlier
>>> grammars dodged this by considering the prepositions themselves to be
>>> case-markers, but then ran into the fact that English has a LOT more
>>> prepositions than Latin has cases. One group of later grammars ruled out
>>> the version with the preposition as an indirect object. Another group
>>> treated it as an indirect object, but only in cases where the
>>> preposition-ed version could be paraphrased as the prepositionless
>>> version (so no indirect object in 'Joe finished off the lutfisk for
>>> me'). Some early generative approaches considered the prepositionless
>>> version as being made out of the preposition-ed one, so in a sense there
>>> were no ditransitive verbs (I said "early" here because I'm sure about
>>> those; I'm not sure about what the current way to deal with the
>>> construction is).
>>>
>>> Whatever you do with it, it's a bit of a mess. Since specific grammars,
>>> particularly older ones, usually adopt one approach but don't mention
>>> that there are others, I think it's important for teachers and students
>>> to know there *is* a history of disagreement over this. I end up
>>> imagining someone writing a state test and thinking there is, and has
>>> always been, exactly one approach here, and creating a major problem.
>>>
>>> The "infinitive with understood subject" (For NP to V") presents even
>>> more of a terminological muddle. From what I've seen, one approach is to
>>> just call the whole thing a specialized kind of infinitive construction,
>>> treating the For....to... sequence as a kind of discontinuous marker, a
>>> bit analogous to either...or; others give one label to the 'for' part
>>> and another to the 'to' part. I cheat, and call the part introduced by
>>> "for" 'subject-ish'.
>>>
>>> Bill Spruiell
>>> Dept. of English
>>> Central Michigan University
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> -----Original Message-----
>>> From: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar
>>> [mailto:[log in to unmask]] On Behalf Of Castilleja, Janet
>>> Sent: Friday, December 12, 2008 12:12 PM
>>> To: [log in to unmask]
>>> Subject: Re: Clause or Phrase
>>>
>>> Yeah - I meant 'me.' What I was really trying to get at is whether or
>>> not people ever call 'for me' in 'Joe baked a cake for me' an indirect
>>> object, since it seems to be doing the same thing as 'me' in 'Joe baked
>>> me
>>> a cake.' I had learned that prepositional phrases can't be major
>>> sentence elements like subjects and objects, but that seems to be
>>> substantially more complex.
>>>
>>> 'For me to criticize him would be foolish.' Here 'for me' seems to be
>>> the subject of the infinitive clause. I know that 'for' constructions
>>> introduce some non-finite structures, but can we still call them
>>> prepositions?
>>>
>>> I also wondered whether people use the term 'retained object
>>> complement.' I like it, but I think my students feel it goes way beyond
>>> what anyone should be required to know.
>>>
>>> My state, Washington has teacher tests. We use Praxis by ETS. Students
>>> are required to take a basic skills test, which we require students to
>>> take before entering our teacher ed program. Then, if they get an
>>> endorsement such as ESOL or bilingual education, they have to take a
>>> test for that. These are the tests that my students are preparing for,
>>> and the test really asks them questions about grammar.
>>>
>>> Examples:
>>> My sister and I always loved sledding down the hill
>>> behind our house.
>>>
>>> The underlined word in the sentence above is an
>>> example of
>>>
>>> (A) a conjunction
>>>
>>> (B) a participle
>>>
>>> (C) a gerund
>>>
>>> (D) an adverb
>>>
>>> We went to a restaurant, and dinner was cook very bad.
>>>
>>> The underlined words in the sentence are an example of an error in
>>>
>>> (A) question formation
>>>
>>> (B) relative clause formation
>>>
>>> (C) passive formation
>>>
>>> (D) command formation
>>>
>>> Now I'm careful to use words like 'gerund,' which I didn't used to use,
>>> because I know they see it on the test.
>>>
>>> Janet
>>>
>>> -----Original Message-----
>>> From: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar
>>> [mailto:[log in to unmask]] On Behalf Of Craig Hancock
>>> Sent: Thursday, December 11, 2008 4:53 PM
>>> To: [log in to unmask]
>>> Subject: Re: Clause or Phrase
>>>
>>> Janet,
>>> These are wonderful questions. Much of what I would say Bill covers,
>>> so
>>> I'll add a few sidenotes. I have struggled through the same questions
>>> and feel a little more settled in my thinking.
>>> I think it's so much more important to describe the structure than it
>>> is to put it in the "right" category. So looking closely at these
>>> non-finite structures and saying they usually are missing a subject
>>> (not always) and aren't grounded with finite verbs is probably the most
>>> important thing. My students seem OK with saying we'll call them
>>> clauses, but traditional grammar calls them phrases. I end up doing
>>> somewhat the same thing with "gerund" as a term. I don't like it, but
>>> it's out there, and it helps to at least point out what the word refers
>>> to for the people who use it.
>>> I start out with "the elements of the simple clause", so I cover
>>> postnominal modification with prepositional phrases first and say there
>>> are other word groups in that slot that we'll cover later. That seems
>>> to work for me. I sometimes postpone restrictive and non-restrictive
>>> modification until later as well. Appositional phrases also fit in that
>>> slot, but I don't bring them in right away.
>>> I think you mistakenly ask about "Joe" as indirect object in your
>>> cake
>>> sentence. My guess is you meant "me". I like the multi-functional
>>> analysis of functional gramamr for that one. From that view, the
>>> transitivity system helps us represent the world. The clause gives us
>>> processes and participants and circumstances andestablishes participant
>>> roles. We also have systems in place for construing that event in
>>> different ways. In passives, for example, the direct or indirect object
>>> gets shifted into the grammatical subject slot without changing their
>>> real world roles. ("The cake was baked by Joe. I was baked the cake by
>>> Joe." In both these cases, Joe is obviously still doing the baking.)
>>> This can also give us a way to put different information in the usual
>>> given slot and in the clause ending slot we usually use for new
>>> information. "Who was the cake for?" "The cake was baked for me."
>>> "What did Joe bake you?" "Joe baked me a cake." "Who baked the cake?
>>> "The cake was baked by Joe." Students seem to enjoy putting a clause
>>> through its various permutations and then reflecting on how that
>>> "construes" the process. We can also say something like "Joe baked all
>>> night", or "Joe baked with great care", not because we have stopped
>>> understanding that "baking" means you bake something and are probably
>>> doing that for some sort of beneficiary, but because those elements are
>>> not always in focus. Even categories like "transitive" and
>>> "intransitive" and "di-transitive" and "complex transitive" can be used
>>> to talk about the verb itself as well as about the structure of a
>>> particular clause. Is "Joe baked all night" intransitive? I think
>>> that's easier to understand if you realize the process hasn't changed,
>>> but certain aspects of it are simply not in focus for the statement.
>>> I have found that most state tests for students have no real
>>> knowledge
>>> content to them. Even the phrasing of the standards is something like
>>> "Can puncutate sentences," never anything like "can identify a
>>> participle phrase" or "Can differentiate compound sentences from
>>> compound predicates." Even the SAT simply asks students to pick a
>>> version that seems more effective or more correct. It never asks for
>>> terminology. Language, at least for students, is treated like a
>>> behavior.
>>> Are there teacher tests in your state?
>>>
>>> Craig
>>>
>>> How would you analyze this: Once upon a time, there was a prince named
>>>
>>>> Joe.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Do you analyze a prince named Joe as a noun phrase with a participle
>>>> phrase modifying the noun head, or as a participle clause? I've
>>>>
>>> always
>>>
>>>> called these non-finite constructions reduced clauses or participle
>>>> clauses, but I have run into a problem. In my grammar class for
>>>> pre-service teachers, I start with noun phrases. When I teach noun
>>>> modification, I want to teach students about post-modification, but
>>>>
>>> they
>>>
>>>> really don't know anything about finite and non-finite verbs yet, nor
>>>>
>>> do
>>>
>>>> they know much about clauses. So this semester, I decided I would
>>>>
>>> just
>>>
>>>> call them participle phrases which modify nouns. But then I was in
>>>> trouble when we got to clauses because I wanted to call then reduced
>>>>
>>> or
>>>
>>>> non-finite clauses. By that time, the students knew enough to say
>>>>
>>> "Hey
>>>
>>>> wait a minute! Didn't you just tell us those were phrases?" At least
>>>>
>>> I
>>>
>>>> know they were listening in October.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Also, do you call 'Joe' a retained object complement, or is there a
>>>> better way to label this?
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> How about this: Joe baked a cake for me. Can I just go ahead and
>>>>
>>> call
>>>
>>>> 'Joe' an indirect object? It means exactly the same this as Joe baked
>>>>
>>> me
>>>
>>>> a cake.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> This is an on-going problem for me, because, even though I try to
>>>>
>>> teach
>>>
>>>> them a pretty straight forward descriptive-structural-functional view
>>>>
>>> of
>>>
>>>> syntax (Quirk et al is my bible), with a little discussion of
>>>> prescriptivism thrown in so they'll know what to expect when they get
>>>> into the schools, I find that frequently there is more than one way to
>>>> analyze a given structure. This disturbs my students. They want to
>>>> know the 'right' way, and it better be the way that it is gong to show
>>>> up on the subject area test they have to take. Do you think there is
>>>> any consensus on the 'best' grammar approach to teach pre-service
>>>> teachers? This is not a trivial issue, since they have high-stakes
>>>> tests (for themselves and their students) principals and parents in
>>>> their futures.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Comments?
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Janet Castilleja
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web
>>>>
>>> interface
>>>
>>>> at:
>>>> http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html
>>>> and select "Join or leave the list"
>>>>
>>>> Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/
>>>>
>>>>
>>> To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web
>>> interface at:
>>> http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html
>>> and select "Join or leave the list"
>>>
>>> Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/
>>>
>>> To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web
>>> interface at:
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>>> and select "Join or leave the list"
>>>
>>> Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/
>>>
>>> To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web
>>> interface at:
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>>> and select "Join or leave the list"
>>>
>>> Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/
>>>
>>
>> To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web
interface
>> at:
>> http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html
>> and select "Join or leave the list"
>>
>> Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/
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>>
>>
> To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web interface
> at:
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> and select "Join or leave the list"
>
> Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/
>
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at:
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and select "Join or leave the list"
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------=_Part_30284_11826940.1229289016352
Content-Type: text/html; charset=ISO-8859-1
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Content-Disposition: inline
<div>Thanks for the update, Craig! It seems ATEG still has its work cut out=
for it in convincing NCTE to recognize the value of teaching grammar and o=
ther features of language explicitly as an integral part of the language ar=
ts curriculum. It's good to know that a scope and sequence plan can sti=
ll be hammered out by a group not related to NCTE (although I'm sure AT=
EG members and the discussions here can still be of immense value to that e=
ndeavor). When the day arrives that NCTE endorses grammar teaching, there w=
ill likely be a scramble for as many articulated plans as possible!</div>
<div> </div>
<div>John Alexander</div>
<div>Austin, Texas<br><br></div>
<div class=3D"gmail_quote">On Sat, Dec 13, 2008 at 10:35 AM, Craig Hancock =
<span dir=3D"ltr"><<a href=3D"mailto:[log in to unmask]">[log in to unmask]
edu</a>></span> wrote:<br>
<blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"PADDING-LEFT: 1ex; MARGIN: 0px 0=
px 0px 0.8ex; BORDER-LEFT: #ccc 1px solid">Richard,<br> Scope and sequ=
ence is in a bit of hiatus. This might be a good time to talk about the rea=
sons for that and the difficulties around doing that through ATEG.<br>
My own frustration dates back to two conferences ago, when I thought =
we would make great progress on scope and sequence at the conference. My pl=
an, which I thought was agreed on by the conference committee, was to break=
into subgroups and have people make suggestions about what might be covere=
d. We could have a sub-group making recommendations about Standard English,=
punctuation, and so on, focusing on the knowledge about language that wold=
be most helpful and useful. I was hoping people would then feel a vested i=
nterest in the project. There was resistance, though, from different =
sources. Some people questioned whether ATEG, as a sub-group of NCTE, shoul=
d be taking a position on grammar at odds with our parent organization. Tha=
t conflict of interest has been a constant issue in ATEG, and I don't f=
ault anyone from bringing it up. One result was that we largely used our ti=
me to construct a position statement asking NCTE to endorse the systematic =
teaching of grammar. The position statement, which I thought was very thoug=
htful and nicely written, was simply tabled at the NCTE convention. In othe=
r words, ATEG tried to work through official channels as a sub-group =
of NCTE, ibut was stymied by those who feel they know more about this than =
we do and who, in effect, control our existence as an organization.<br>
The other problem came from those at the conference, including the le=
adership, who feel that scope and sequence already exists and that we have =
no need to construct one. My own tendency has been to lobby for new ways of=
looking at grammar, but ATEG has long been an organization made up of peop=
le with fairly conservative (not regressive, not by a long shot) views. &nb=
sp;This was hard on me because I felt I had a lot invested in the project, =
but would be asked to shut out from the conversation the new possibilities =
in grammar that excite me the most.<br>
But let me give a more friendly view of that. Many of us involved in =
the project have written books on the subject, and you can't really do =
that without engaging the issue in ways that you feel invested in. What hap=
pens if the group advocates a scope that doesn't fit those views?  =
;I sometimes feel I am shooting myself in the foot every time I move on in =
my thinking because I have a 2005 text that now constitutes an older positi=
on.<br>
This might be a way of saying that those of us who know the most tend=
to have an investment in particular approaches. For ATEG as a whole, those=
approaches have probably already been written.<br> As many of you kno=
w, much of the conversation about scope and sequence was worked out by the =
New Public Grammar group. I have never wanted that group to be in conflict =
(to compete with) ATEG. So at that point, I didn't even feel comfortabl=
e airing these frustrations on the NPG list. I was, and still am, nervous a=
bout creating a rift in the public grammar community. I didn't want any=
one to feel I was trying to pull people away from ATEG.<br>
The unfortunate result has been that Scope and sequence hasn't mo=
ved forward for some time. A few of us have been in discussion about starti=
ng it back up again as we restart talk on the NPG list.<br> NPG has th=
e benefit of being separate from NCTE. It can take a strong contrary perspe=
ctive and not feel uncomfortable about that.<br>
It can also maintain friendly relationships with ATEG without the nec=
essity of ATEG endorsing its views.<br> I apologize if I have mi=
srepresented anyone's views or anyone else's views about the histor=
y of the project. I don't think of it as anyone being at fault. These a=
re very predictable difficulties given the nature of the project.<br>
<br>Craig<br><br><br>Richard betting wrote:<br>
<blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"PADDING-LEFT: 1ex; MARGIN: 0px 0=
px 0px 0.8ex; BORDER-LEFT: #ccc 1px solid">Janet, Craig, et al. continued<b=
r> One of the reasons I tend to believe in the innateness=
of some grammatical structures is that children can understand the kinds o=
f sentences that have been used in recent posts. For example, a first grade=
r will understand this exchange: "If you continue to behave badly, you=
will not get a present" leads, later in the day, to "That you wo=
n't get a present is very obvious." Another example results =
in the prepositional phrase as subject. "He said that he would leave a=
t nine" might lead to "For him to leave at nine means that we'=
;ll have to finish our project quickly." I got those kinds of sentence=
s and explanations from my study of generative grammar forty years ago. Tra=
nsformations. The second called the T For To transform.<br>
A comment and a question. The naming of parts: are word groups=
phrases or clauses, participial phrases or clauses and should we call them=
one- or two-object verbs? Are these transitive or intransitive structures,=
finite or non-finite verbs, and are these adjective, qualifying, complemen=
tary or appositional clauses or phrases? Are they complex transitive, di- o=
r bi-transitive? Will R & K diagrams help explain them and will s=
tudents be able to distinguish form from function? Are participles and infi=
nitives parts of speech? Why or why not? How many parts of speech are there=
, anyway? And finally, what is the relationship between the naming of parts=
and improvement in student speaking and writing? Do teachers conscio=
usly and consistently make those connections between theory and practice? A=
re students being asked to write and speak and are they creating portfolios=
of written work to demonstrate their competence? And are they participatin=
g in the assessment process?<br>
<br>I would bet that the majority of middle school/high school English teac=
hers would not be able to define and explain the terms that have been discu=
ssed, to say nothing of doing so from the perspective of more than one gram=
matical approach. That is not to criticize the teachers themselves so much =
as to ask about the educational process shat enabled them to get where they=
are without an adequate knowledge of the English language that they spend =
so much time teaching. In order to have an ADEQUATE (minimal) background in=
English, what courses should/must all language arts teachers have? Could w=
e agree on the required courses? Do current textbooks (for teachers) meet t=
he content requirement we might create? Is anyone still working on scope an=
d sequence?<br>
<br>Is the current discussion helping create a consensus on these and other=
issues that we should be helping decide? Unfortunately, perhaps, the end r=
esult seems to be that each person will create his/her own curriculum. &nbs=
p;If English teachers don't take the opportunity now, someone else will, as=
NoChild evolves and insupportable standards (like the naming of gram=
mar parts) are created. So much to do, so little time.<br>
<br><br><br><br><br><br>On Dec 12, 2008, at 3:13 PM, Spruiell, William C wr=
ote:<br><br>
<blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"PADDING-LEFT: 1ex; MARGIN: 0px 0=
px 0px 0.8ex; BORDER-LEFT: #ccc 1px solid">Janet, Craig, et al.<br><br>Ther=
e are a number of traditional grammars that would call the 'me' in<=
br>
'Joe baked a cake for me' an indirect object. In Latin, the pronoun=
<br>would be in the dative case, and "indirect object" started ou=
t as a<br>label that meant, basically, "dative object, as opposed to a=
ccusative<br>
object."<br><br>There's a major stress point in the traditional sy=
stem, though -- the<br>noun that normally goes with a preposition is usuall=
y called "the object<br>of the preposition," and it can't be =
*both* an indirect object and the<br>
object of the preposition (keep in mind that the traditional approach<br>al=
ways asks, 'what word does this go with,' so you have to say either=
<br>'the verb' or 'the preposition' with one of these). Som=
e earlier<br>
grammars dodged this by considering the prepositions themselves to be<br>ca=
se-markers, but then ran into the fact that English has a LOT more<br>prepo=
sitions than Latin has cases. One group of later grammars ruled out<br>
the version with the preposition as an indirect object. Another group<br>tr=
eated it as an indirect object, but only in cases where the<br>preposition-=
ed version could be paraphrased as the prepositionless<br>version (so no in=
direct object in 'Joe finished off the lutfisk for<br>
me'). Some early generative approaches considered the prepositionless<b=
r>version as being made out of the preposition-ed one, so in a sense there<=
br>were no ditransitive verbs (I said "early" here because I'=
m sure about<br>
those; I'm not sure about what the current way to deal with the<br>cons=
truction is).<br><br>Whatever you do with it, it's a bit of a mess. Sin=
ce specific grammars,<br>particularly older ones, usually adopt one approac=
h but don't mention<br>
that there are others, I think it's important for teachers and students=
<br>to know there *is* a history of disagreement over this. I end up<br>ima=
gining someone writing a state test and thinking there is, and has<br>alway=
s been, exactly one approach here, and creating a major problem.<br>
<br>The "infinitive with understood subject" (For NP to V") =
presents even<br>more of a terminological muddle. From what I've seen, =
one approach is to<br>just call the whole thing a specialized kind of infin=
itive construction,<br>
treating the For....to... sequence as a kind of discontinuous marker, a<br>=
bit analogous to either...or; others give one label to the 'for' pa=
rt<br>and another to the 'to' part. I cheat, and call the part intr=
oduced by<br>
"for" 'subject-ish'.<br><br>Bill Spruiell<br>Dept. of Eng=
lish<br>Central Michigan University<br><br><br><br>-----Original Message---=
--<br>From: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar<br>[mailto:<a href=
=3D"mailto:[log in to unmask]" target=3D"_blank">[log in to unmask]
.EDU</a>] On Behalf Of Castilleja, Janet<br>
Sent: Friday, December 12, 2008 12:12 PM<br>To: <a href=3D"mailto:ATEG@LIST=
SERV.MUOHIO.EDU" target=3D"_blank">[log in to unmask]</a><br>Subject:=
Re: Clause or Phrase<br><br>Yeah - I meant 'me.' What I was =
really trying to get at is whether or<br>
not people ever call 'for me' in 'Joe baked a cake for me' =
an indirect<br>object, since it seems to be doing the same thing as &=
#39;me' in 'Joe baked<br>me<br>a cake.' I had learned that prep=
ositional phrases can't be major<br>
sentence elements like subjects and objects, but that seems to be<br>substa=
ntially more complex.<br><br>'For me to criticize him would be foolish.=
' Here 'for me' seems to be<br>the subject of the infini=
tive clause. I know that 'for' constructions<br>
introduce some non-finite structures, but can we still call them<br>preposi=
tions?<br><br>I also wondered whether people use the term 'retained obj=
ect<br>complement.' I like it, but I think my students feel it go=
es way beyond<br>
what anyone should be required to know.<br><br>My state, Washington has tea=
cher tests. We use Praxis by ETS. Students<br>are required to take a =
basic skills test, which we require students to<br>take before entering our=
teacher ed program. Then, if they get an<br>
endorsement such as ESOL or bilingual education, they have to take a<br>tes=
t for that. These are the tests that my students are preparing for,<br>and =
the test really asks them questions about grammar.<br><br>Examples:<br>
My sister and I always loved sledding down the hill<br>behind our house.<br=
><br>The underlined word in the sentence above is an<br>example of<br><br>(=
A) a conjunction<br><br>(B) a participle<br><br>(C) a gerund<br><br>(D) an =
adverb<br>
<br>We went to a restaurant, and dinner was cook very bad.<br><br>The under=
lined words in the sentence are an example of an error in<br><br>(A) =
question formation<br><br>(B) relative clause formation=
<br><br>(C) passive formation<br>
<br>(D) command formation<br><br>Now I'm careful to use wo=
rds like 'gerund,' which I didn't used to use,<br>because I kno=
w they see it on the test.<br><br>Janet<br><br>-----Original Message-----<b=
r>From: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar<br>
[mailto:<a href=3D"mailto:[log in to unmask]" target=3D"_blank">ATEG@=
LISTSERV.MUOHIO.EDU</a>] On Behalf Of Craig Hancock<br>Sent: Thursday, Dece=
mber 11, 2008 4:53 PM<br>To: <a href=3D"mailto:[log in to unmask]" ta=
rget=3D"_blank">[log in to unmask]</a><br>
Subject: Re: Clause or Phrase<br><br>Janet,<br> These are wonderful qu=
estions. Much of what I would say Bill covers,<br>so<br>I'll add a few =
sidenotes. I have struggled through the same questions<br>and feel a little=
more settled in my thinking.<br>
I think it's so much more important to describe the structure tha=
n it<br>is to put it in the "right" category. So looking closely =
at these<br>non-finite structures and saying they usually are missing a sub=
ject<br>
(not always) and aren't grounded with finite verbs is probably the most=
<br>important thing. My students seem OK with saying we'll call them<br=
>clauses, but traditional grammar calls them phrases. I end up doing<br>
somewhat the same thing with "gerund" as a term. I don't like=
it, but<br>it's out there, and it helps to at least point out what the=
word refers<br>to for the people who use it.<br> I start out with &qu=
ot;the elements of the simple clause", so I cover<br>
postnominal modification with prepositional phrases first and say there<br>=
are other word groups in that slot that we'll cover later. That seems<b=
r>to work for me. I sometimes postpone restrictive and non-restrictive<br>
modification until later as well. Appositional phrases also fit in that<br>=
slot, but I don't bring them in right away.<br> I think you mistak=
enly ask about "Joe" as indirect object in your<br>cake<br>senten=
ce. My guess is you meant "me". I like the multi-functional<br>
analysis of functional gramamr for that one. From that view, the<br>transit=
ivity system helps us represent the world. The clause gives us<br>processes=
and participants and circumstances andestablishes participant<br>roles. We=
also have systems in place for construing that event in<br>
different ways. In passives, for example, the direct or indirect object<br>=
gets shifted into the grammatical subject slot without changing their<br>re=
al world roles. ("The cake was baked by Joe. I was baked the cake by<b=
r>
Joe." In both these cases, Joe is obviously still doing the baking.)<b=
r>This can also give us a way to put different information in the usual<br>=
given slot and in the clause ending slot we usually use for new<br>informat=
ion. "Who was the cake for?" "The cake was baked for me.&quo=
t;<br>
"What did Joe bake you?" "Joe baked me a cake." &=
nbsp;"Who baked the cake?<br>"The cake was baked by Joe." &n=
bsp;Students seem to enjoy putting a clause<br>through its various permutat=
ions and then reflecting on how that<br>
"construes" the process. We can also say something like "Joe=
baked all<br>night", or "Joe baked with great care", not be=
cause we have stopped<br>understanding that "baking" means you ba=
ke something and are probably<br>
doing that for some sort of beneficiary, but because those elements are<br>=
not always in focus. Even categories like "transitive" and<br>&qu=
ot;intransitive" and "di-transitive" and "complex trans=
itive" can be used<br>
to talk about the verb itself as well as about the structure of a<br>partic=
ular clause. Is "Joe baked all night" intransitive? I think<br>th=
at's easier to understand if you realize the process hasn't changed=
,<br>
but certain aspects of it are simply not in focus for the statement.<br>&nb=
sp;I have found that most state tests for students have no real<br>knowledg=
e<br>content to them. Even the phrasing of the standards is something like<=
br>
"Can puncutate sentences," never anything like "can identify=
a<br>participle phrase" or "Can differentiate compound sentences=
from<br>compound predicates." Even the SAT simply asks students to pi=
ck a<br>
version that seems more effective or more correct. It never asks for<br>ter=
minology. Language, at least for students, is treated like a<br>behavior.<b=
r> Are there teacher tests in your state?<br><br>Craig<br><br>How woul=
d you analyze this: Once upon a time, there was a prince named<br>
<blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"PADDING-LEFT: 1ex; MARGIN: 0px 0=
px 0px 0.8ex; BORDER-LEFT: #ccc 1px solid">Joe.<br><br><br><br>Do you analy=
ze a prince named Joe as a noun phrase with a participle<br>phrase modifyin=
g the noun head, or as a participle clause? I've<br>
</blockquote>always<br>
<blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"PADDING-LEFT: 1ex; MARGIN: 0px 0=
px 0px 0.8ex; BORDER-LEFT: #ccc 1px solid">called these non-finite construc=
tions reduced clauses or participle<br>clauses, but I have run into a probl=
em. In my grammar class for<br>
pre-service teachers, I start with noun phrases. When I teach noun<br=
>modification, I want to teach students about post-modification, but<br></b=
lockquote>they<br>
<blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"PADDING-LEFT: 1ex; MARGIN: 0px 0=
px 0px 0.8ex; BORDER-LEFT: #ccc 1px solid">really don't know anything a=
bout finite and non-finite verbs yet, nor<br></blockquote>do<br>
<blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"PADDING-LEFT: 1ex; MARGIN: 0px 0=
px 0px 0.8ex; BORDER-LEFT: #ccc 1px solid">they know much about clauses. &n=
bsp;So this semester, I decided I would<br></blockquote>just<br>
<blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"PADDING-LEFT: 1ex; MARGIN: 0px 0=
px 0px 0.8ex; BORDER-LEFT: #ccc 1px solid">call them participle phrases whi=
ch modify nouns. But then I was in<br>trouble when we got to clauses =
because I wanted to call then reduced<br>
</blockquote>or<br>
<blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"PADDING-LEFT: 1ex; MARGIN: 0px 0=
px 0px 0.8ex; BORDER-LEFT: #ccc 1px solid">non-finite clauses. By tha=
t time, the students knew enough to say<br></blockquote>"Hey<br>
<blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"PADDING-LEFT: 1ex; MARGIN: 0px 0=
px 0px 0.8ex; BORDER-LEFT: #ccc 1px solid">wait a minute! Didn't =
you just tell us those were phrases?" At least<br></blockquote>I=
<br>
<blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"PADDING-LEFT: 1ex; MARGIN: 0px 0=
px 0px 0.8ex; BORDER-LEFT: #ccc 1px solid">know they were listening in Octo=
ber.<br><br><br><br>Also, do you call 'Joe' a retained object compl=
ement, or is there a<br>
better way to label this?<br><br><br><br>How about this: Joe baked a =
cake for me. Can I just go ahead and<br></blockquote>call<br>
<blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"PADDING-LEFT: 1ex; MARGIN: 0px 0=
px 0px 0.8ex; BORDER-LEFT: #ccc 1px solid">'Joe' an indirect object=
? It means exactly the same this as Joe baked<br></blockquote>me<br>
<blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"PADDING-LEFT: 1ex; MARGIN: 0px 0=
px 0px 0.8ex; BORDER-LEFT: #ccc 1px solid">a cake.<br><br><br><br>This is a=
n on-going problem for me, because, even though I try to<br></blockquote>te=
ach<br>
<blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"PADDING-LEFT: 1ex; MARGIN: 0px 0=
px 0px 0.8ex; BORDER-LEFT: #ccc 1px solid">them a pretty straight forward d=
escriptive-structural-functional view<br></blockquote>of<br>
<blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"PADDING-LEFT: 1ex; MARGIN: 0px 0=
px 0px 0.8ex; BORDER-LEFT: #ccc 1px solid">syntax (Quirk et al is my bible)=
, with a little discussion of<br>prescriptivism thrown in so they'll kn=
ow what to expect when they get<br>
into the schools, I find that frequently there is more than one way to<br>a=
nalyze a given structure. This disturbs my students. They want =
to<br>know the 'right' way, and it better be the way that it is gon=
g to show<br>
up on the subject area test they have to take. Do you think there is<=
br>any consensus on the 'best' grammar approach to teach pre-servic=
e<br>teachers? This is not a trivial issue, since they have high-stak=
es<br>
tests (for themselves and their students) principals and parents in<br>thei=
r futures.<br><br><br><br>Comments?<br><br><br><br>Janet Castilleja<br><br>=
<br>To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web<br=
>
</blockquote>interface<br>
<blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"PADDING-LEFT: 1ex; MARGIN: 0px 0=
px 0px 0.8ex; BORDER-LEFT: #ccc 1px solid">at:<br> <a href=3D"h=
ttp://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html" target=3D"_blank">http://list=
serv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html</a><br>
and select "Join or leave the list"<br><br>Visit ATEG's web s=
ite at <a href=3D"http://ateg.org/" target=3D"_blank">http://ateg.org/</a><=
br><br></blockquote><br>To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit t=
he list's web<br>
interface at:<br> <a href=3D"http://listserv.muohio.edu/archive=
s/ateg.html" target=3D"_blank">http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.htm=
l</a><br>and select "Join or leave the list"<br><br>Visit ATEG=
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ml</a><br>
and select "Join or leave the list"<br><br>Visit ATEG's web s=
ite at <a href=3D"http://ateg.org/" target=3D"_blank">http://ateg.org/</a><=
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------=_Part_30284_11826940.1229289016352--
------------------------------
Date: Sun, 14 Dec 2008 14:03:38 -0800
From: "Paul E. Doniger" <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Re: Engaging in the grammar trenches (was: Conservatives!)
I think you're right, but I'd also add that there's a need for =
--0-1483397165-1229292218=:13806
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Geoff,=0A=0AI think you're right, but I'd also add that there's a need for =
grammar instruction in connection with the other parts of the Language Arts=
umbrella besides just writing: Reading, Listening, Speaking, and Thinkng. =
For example, I have found many times that grammatical analysis can help stu=
dents understand literary texts (and have written about this).=0A=0APaul=0A=
=A0"If this were play'd upon a stage now, I could condemn it as an improbab=
le fiction" (_Twelfth Night_ 3.4.127-128). =0A=0A=0A=0A=0A_________________=
_______________=0AFrom: Geoffrey Layton <[log in to unmask]>=0ATo: ATEG@=
LISTSERV.MUOHIO.EDU=0ASent: Sunday, December 14, 2008 12:58:43 PM=0ASubject=
: Re: Engaging in the grammar trenches (was: Conservatives!)=0A=0AFrom the =
situation you describe I think has arisen the "grammar in context" crowd, w=
hich as Martha has pointed out is dedicated to teaching the same old gramma=
r rules, but with a new and more "politically correct" name - i.e., one tha=
t seems to respond to the NCTE injunction against grammar instruction.=A0 T=
he problem as I see it is not so much that students don't know their adverb=
ials from their adjectivals, but that they don't know how to use the basic =
structure/grammar of the language to create the meaning that they for the m=
ost part are capable of.=A0 I think this goes back to the previous discussi=
on where Bob brought up the structural deficiencies of basic writers and ho=
w we as writing teachers have such great difficulties dealing with these pr=
oblems.=0A=0AGeoff Layton=0A=0A=0A=0A________________________________=0ADat=
e: Sun, 14 Dec 2008 08:28:03 -0800=0AFrom: [log in to unmask]: Re:=
Engaging in the grammar trenches (was: Conservatives!)=0ATo: ATEG@LISTSERV=
.MUOHIO.EDU=0A=0A=0AThis reminds me of the rather curious observations I ha=
ve had over the past ten years or so: Most of my high school English teachi=
ng peers=A0have commented on the lack of grammar teaching that their studen=
ts have experienced (or seem to have lacked the experience of). Yet few of =
them have the time or the interest=A0to=A0get involved in the conversation =
(indeed, may don't seem to know that the conversation even exists). I know =
that I have too many other pulls on my time and interests to devote as much=
to these issues as I would like -- and I've been more involved than most o=
f my peers (my long silences are due not to a lack of interest, but to a la=
ck of time). And with the work load for teachers increasing as it seems to =
be doing, it doesn't look like this will change at any time soon.=A0=0AAlso=
, I think most uf us at the secondary level seem to believe (and perhaps ri=
ghtly) that the issues of grammar (which they see as one of error correctio=
n mostly) should have been dealt with in elementary and middle school. I be=
lieve that unless elementary and middle school teachers are recruited more =
dynamically into this conversation, change can't happen.=0A=A0=0AWhat are y=
our thoughts & experiences? =0A=A0=0APaul D.=0A=0A=0A=A0"If this were play'=
d upon a stage now, I could condemn it as an improbable fiction" (_Twelfth =
Night_ 3.4.127-128). =0A=0A=0A=0A=0A________________________________=0AFrom=
: Craig Hancock <[log in to unmask]>=0ATo: [log in to unmask]:=
Sunday, December 14, 2008 9:20:24 AM=0ASubject: Re: Conservatives!=0A=0ABo=
b,=0A=A0 I agree with some conservatives much more than I agree with others=
. I=0Adon't like the views of grammar typical of "progressive" educators.=
=0AThis sort of response doesn't help. I don't think "conservative" is a=0A=
bad name.=0A=A0 ATEG is a conservative organization. Most of the conversati=
on on list is=0Aabout whether something is "correct" or about how to classi=
fy something,=0Ausually using structural or traditional grammar as the lens=
. If you are=0Ainterested in alternative approaches, as I am, you can feel =
somewhat=0Alonely. It's not just that people disagree with those views, but=
that=0Athere's not the sort of robust discussion about them that there sho=
uld=0Abe on a grammar list. As groups go, it's a conservative group.=0A=A0 =
If that's the case, it would make sense that many people would wonder=0Awhy=
we need a scope and sequence. Don't they already exist? Isn't it a=0Amatte=
r of just getting endorsement for the gramamr that's already out=0Athere?=
=0A=A0 I don't agree with that position, but I can respect it. I can also t=
ry=0Ato understand the nature of the difficulties involved in moving forwar=
d=0Awith a scope and sequence throught ATEG.=0A=A0 1) NCTE is oppossed to i=
t, and we are an NCTE subgroup.=0A=A0 2) Most people on ATEG adhere to pers=
pectives on gramamr that are=0Aalready somewhat established (even if their =
teaching is not.) Frankly, I=0Athink we would be much better off if we went=
back to the teaching of=0Agrammar I was given growing up, but we don't nec=
essarily have to do=0Athat. A great deal has happened since the 1950's, muc=
h of it so much=0Amore friendly to applications in reading and writing.=0A=
=0ACraig>=0A=0AWhat an=A0 interesting way of characterizing views of gramma=
r that disagree=0A> with your own!=0A>=0A> Craig writes:=0A>=0A> My own ten=
dency has been to lobby for new=A0 ways of looking at grammar, but=0A> ATEG=
has long been an organization made=0A> up of people with fairly conservati=
ve (not regressive, not by a long=0A> shot) views.=A0 This was hard on me b=
ecause I felt I had a lot invested in=0A> the project, but would be asked t=
o shut out from the conversation the=0A> new possibilities in grammar that =
excite me the most.=0A>=0A> ****=0A> Of course, there is no hostility in ch=
aracterizing others views with the=0A> term "fairly conservative."=0A>=0A> =
Craig, I appreciate such an honest appraisal of others views of the nature=
=0A> of language.=0A>=0A> Bob Yates, University of Central Missouri=0A>=0A>=
To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web interface=
=0A> at:=0A>=A0 =A0 =A0 http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html=0A> a=
nd select "Join or leave the list"=0A>=0A> Visit ATEG's web site at http://=
ateg.org/=0A>=0A=0ATo join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the li=
st's web interface at:=0A=A0 =A0 http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.h=
tml=0Aand select "Join or leave the list"=0A=0AVisit ATEG's web site at htt=
p://ateg.org/=0ATo join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list'=
s web interface at: http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html and selec=
t "Join or leave the list" Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/=0A=0A_=
_______________________________=0ASend e-mail faster without improving your=
typing skills. Get your Hotmail=AE account. To join or leave this LISTSERV=
list, please visit the list's web interface at: http://listserv.muohio.edu=
/archives/ateg.html and select "Join or leave the list" =0AVisit ATEG's web=
site at http://ateg.org/
To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web interface
at:
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and select "Join or leave the list"
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--0-1483397165-1229292218=:13806
Content-Type: text/html; charset=iso-8859-1
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
<html><head><style type=3D"text/css"><!-- DIV {margin:0px;} --></style></he=
ad><body><div style=3D"font-family:verdana, helvetica, sans-serif;font-size=
:10pt"><DIV></DIV>=0A<DIV>Geoff,</DIV>=0A<DIV> </DIV>=0A<DIV>I think y=
ou're right, but I'd also add that there's a need for grammar instruction i=
n connection with the other parts of the Language Arts umbrella besides jus=
t writing: Reading, Listening, Speaking, and Thinkng. For example, I have f=
ound many times that grammatical analysis can help students understand lite=
rary texts (and have written about this).</DIV>=0A<DIV> </DIV>=0A<DIV>=
Paul<BR> </DIV>"If this were play'd upon a stage now, I could condemn =
it as an improbable fiction" (_Twelfth Night_ 3.4.127-128).=0A<DIV><BR></DI=
V>=0A<DIV style=3D"FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: verdana, helvetica, sans-s=
erif"><BR>=0A<DIV style=3D"FONT-SIZE: 12pt; FONT-FAMILY: times new roman, n=
ew york, times, serif"><FONT face=3DTahoma size=3D2>=0A<HR SIZE=3D1>=0A<B><=
SPAN style=3D"FONT-WEIGHT: bold">From:</SPAN></B> Geoffrey Layton <write=
[log in to unmask]><BR><B><SPAN style=3D"FONT-WEIGHT: bold">To:</SPAN></B>=
[log in to unmask]<BR><B><SPAN style=3D"FONT-WEIGHT: bold">Sent:</SP=
AN></B> Sunday, December 14, 2008 12:58:43 PM<BR><B><SPAN style=3D"FONT-WEI=
GHT: bold">Subject:</SPAN></B> Re: Engaging in the grammar trenches (was: C=
onservatives!)<BR></FONT><BR>=0A<STYLE>=0A.hmmessage P=0A{=0Amargin:0px;pad=
ding:0px;}=0Abody.hmmessage=0A{=0Afont-size:10pt;font-family:Verdana;}=0A</=
STYLE>=0AFrom the situation you describe I think has arisen the "grammar in=
context" crowd, which as Martha has pointed out is dedicated to teaching t=
he same old grammar rules, but with a new and more "politically correct" na=
me - i.e., one that seems to respond to the NCTE injunction against grammar=
instruction. The problem as I see it is not so much that students do=
n't know their adverbials from their adjectivals, but that they don't know =
how to use the basic structure/grammar of the language to create the meanin=
g that they for the most part are capable of. I think this goes back =
to the previous discussion where Bob brought up the structural deficiencies=
of basic writers and how we as writing teachers have such great difficulti=
es dealing with these problems.<BR><BR>Geoff Layton<BR><BR><BR><BR>=0A<HR i=
d=3DstopSpelling>=0ADate: Sun, 14 Dec 2008 08:28:03 -0800<BR>From: pdoniger=
@SNET.NET<BR>Subject: Re: Engaging in the grammar trenches (was: Conservati=
ves!)<BR>To: [log in to unmask]<BR><BR>=0A<STYLE>=0A.ExternalClass DI=
V=0A{}=0A</STYLE>=0A=0A<DIV style=3D"FONT-SIZE: 12pt; FONT-FAMILY: bookman =
old style, new york, times, serif">=0A<DIV></DIV>=0A<DIV><FONT face=3DVerda=
na>This reminds me of the rather curious observations I have had over the p=
ast ten years or so: Most of my high school English teaching peers hav=
e commented on the lack of grammar teaching that their students have experi=
enced (or seem to have lacked the experience of). Yet few of them have the =
time or the interest to get involved in the conversation (indeed,=
may don't seem to know that the conversation even exists). I know that I h=
ave too many other pulls on my time and interests to devote as much to thes=
e issues as I would like -- and I've been more involved than most of my pee=
rs (my long silences are due not to a lack of interest, but to a lack of ti=
me). And with the work load for teachers increasing as it seems to be doing=
, it doesn't look like this will change at any time soon.</FONT></DIV><FONT=
face=3DVerdana></FONT> <BR><FONT face=3DVerdana>Also, I think most uf=
us at the secondary level seem to believe (and
perhaps rightly) that the issues of grammar (which they see as one of erro=
r correction mostly) should have been dealt with in elementary and middle s=
chool. I believe that unless elementary and middle school teachers are recr=
uited more dynamically into this conversation, change can't happen.</FONT><=
BR><FONT face=3DVerdana></FONT> <BR><FONT face=3DVerdana>What are your=
thoughts & experiences? </FONT><BR><FONT face=3DVerdana></FONT> <=
BR><FONT face=3DVerdana>Paul D.</FONT><BR>=0A<DIV><BR> </DIV><FONT siz=
e=3D2>"If this were play'd upon a stage now, I could condemn it as an impro=
bable fiction" (_Twelfth Night_ 3.4.127-128).</FONT> =0A<DIV><BR></DIV>=0A<=
DIV style=3D"FONT-SIZE: 12pt; FONT-FAMILY: bookman old style, new york, tim=
es, serif"><BR>=0A<DIV style=3D"FONT-SIZE: 12pt; FONT-FAMILY: bookman old s=
tyle, new york, times, serif"><FONT face=3DTahoma size=3D2>=0A<HR SIZE=3D1>=
=0A<B><SPAN style=3D"FONT-WEIGHT: bold">From:</SPAN></B> Craig Hancock <=
[log in to unmask]><BR><B><SPAN style=3D"FONT-WEIGHT: bold">To:</SPAN></=
B> [log in to unmask]<BR><B><SPAN style=3D"FONT-WEIGHT: bold">Sent:</=
SPAN></B> Sunday, December 14, 2008 9:20:24 AM<BR><B><SPAN style=3D"FONT-WE=
IGHT: bold">Subject:</SPAN></B> Re: Conservatives!<BR></FONT><BR>Bob,<BR>&n=
bsp; I agree with some conservatives much more than I agree with others. I<=
BR>don't like the views of grammar typical of "progressive" educators.<BR>T=
his sort of response doesn't help. I don't think "conservative" is a<BR>bad=
name.<BR> ATEG is a conservative organization. Most of the conversat=
ion on list is<BR>about whether something is "correct" or about how to clas=
sify something,<BR>usually using structural or traditional grammar as the l=
ens. If you are<BR>interested in alternative approaches, as I am, you can f=
eel somewhat<BR>lonely. It's not just that people disagree with those views=
,
but that<BR>there's not the sort of robust discussion about them that ther=
e should<BR>be on a grammar list. As groups go, it's a conservative group.<=
BR> If that's the case, it would make sense that many people would wo=
nder<BR>why we need a scope and sequence. Don't they already exist? Isn't i=
t a<BR>matter of just getting endorsement for the gramamr that's already ou=
t<BR>there?<BR> I don't agree with that position, but I can respect i=
t. I can also try<BR>to understand the nature of the difficulties involved =
in moving forward<BR>with a scope and sequence throught ATEG.<BR> 1) =
NCTE is oppossed to it, and we are an NCTE subgroup.<BR> 2) Most peop=
le on ATEG adhere to perspectives on gramamr that are<BR>already somewhat e=
stablished (even if their teaching is not.) Frankly, I<BR>think we would be=
much better off if we went back to the teaching of<BR>grammar I was given =
growing up, but we don't necessarily have to do<BR>that. A great
deal has happened since the 1950's, much of it so much<BR>more friendly to=
applications in reading and writing.<BR><BR>Craig><BR><BR>What an =
interesting way of characterizing views of grammar that disagree<BR>> w=
ith your own!<BR>><BR>> Craig writes:<BR>><BR>> My own tendency=
has been to lobby for new ways of looking at grammar, but<BR>> AT=
EG has long been an organization made<BR>> up of people with fairly cons=
ervative (not regressive, not by a long<BR>> shot) views. This was=
hard on me because I felt I had a lot invested in<BR>> the project, but=
would be asked to shut out from the conversation the<BR>> new possibili=
ties in grammar that excite me the most.<BR>><BR>> ****<BR>> Of co=
urse, there is no hostility in characterizing others views with the<BR>>=
term "fairly conservative."<BR>><BR>> Craig, I appreciate such an ho=
nest appraisal of others views of the nature<BR>> of
language.<BR>><BR>> Bob Yates, University of Central Missouri<BR>>=
;<BR>> To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web =
interface<BR>> at:<BR>> <A href=3D"http://listser=
v.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html" target=3D_blank rel=3Dnofollow>http://list=
serv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html</A><BR>> and select "Join or leave th=
e list"<BR>><BR>> Visit ATEG's web site at <A href=3D"http://ateg.org=
/" target=3D_blank rel=3Dnofollow>http://ateg.org/</A><BR>><BR><BR>To jo=
in or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web interface at:<B=
R> <A href=3D"http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html" t=
arget=3D_blank rel=3Dnofollow>http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html=
</A><BR>and select "Join or leave the list"<BR><BR>Visit ATEG's web site at=
<A href=3D"http://ateg.org/" target=3D_blank rel=3Dnofollow>http://ateg.or=
g/</A><BR></DIV></DIV></DIV>To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please vis=
it the list's web
interface at: http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html and select "Jo=
in or leave the list" Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/<BR><BR>=0A<=
HR>=0ASend e-mail faster without improving your typing skills. <A href=3D"h=
ttp://windowslive.com/Explore/hotmail?ocid=3DTXT_TAGLM_WL_hotmail_acq_speed=
_122008" target=3D_blank rel=3Dnofollow>Get your Hotmail=AE account.</A> To=
join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web interface at=
: http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html and select "Join or leave t=
he list" =0A<P>Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/</P></DIV></DIV></d=
iv></body></html>
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at:
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and select "Join or leave the list"
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--0-1483397165-1229292218=:13806--
------------------------------
Date: Sun, 14 Dec 2008 18:27:01 -0600
From: Geoffrey Layton <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Re: Engaging in the grammar trenches (was: Conservatives!)
--_ffa8e79f-34aa-45d4-b3ec-2382c9dcda9d_
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Paul - Yes=2C of course you're right! I think that grammar has been so mar=
ginalized that people don't recognize its vital importance to the entire ra=
nge of language arts - that which allows you to write also allows you to re=
ad and all of the other creative acts you mention - including thinking! In=
fact=2C I've got an upcoming gig to speak at the College English Associati=
on. Topic - "Thinking in the Context of Grammar"! Should be interesting. =
Any and all advice accepted!Geoff Layton
Date: Sun=2C 14 Dec 2008 14:03:38 -0800From: [log in to unmask]: Re: =
Engaging in the grammar trenches (was: Conservatives!)To: [log in to unmask]
HIO.EDU
Geoff=2C
=20
I think you're right=2C but I'd also add that there's a need for grammar in=
struction in connection with the other parts of the Language Arts umbrella =
besides just writing: Reading=2C Listening=2C Speaking=2C and Thinkng. For =
example=2C I have found many times that grammatical analysis can help stude=
nts understand literary texts (and have written about this).
=20
Paul "If this were play'd upon a stage now=2C I could condemn it as an impr=
obable fiction" (_Twelfth Night_ 3.4.127-128).=20
From: Geoffrey Layton <[log in to unmask]>To: [log in to unmask]
nt: Sunday=2C December 14=2C 2008 12:58:43 PMSubject: Re: Engaging in the g=
rammar trenches (was: Conservatives!)
From the situation you describe I think has arisen the "grammar in context"=
crowd=2C which as Martha has pointed out is dedicated to teaching the same=
old grammar rules=2C but with a new and more "politically correct" name - =
i.e.=2C one that seems to respond to the NCTE injunction against grammar in=
struction. The problem as I see it is not so much that students don't know=
their adverbials from their adjectivals=2C but that they don't know how to=
use the basic structure/grammar of the language to create the meaning that=
they for the most part are capable of. I think this goes back to the prev=
ious discussion where Bob brought up the structural deficiencies of basic w=
riters and how we as writing teachers have such great difficulties dealing =
with these problems.Geoff Layton
Date: Sun=2C 14 Dec 2008 08:28:03 -0800From: [log in to unmask]: Re: =
Engaging in the grammar trenches (was: Conservatives!)To: [log in to unmask]
HIO.EDU
This reminds me of the rather curious observations I have had over the past=
ten years or so: Most of my high school English teaching peers have commen=
ted on the lack of grammar teaching that their students have experienced (o=
r seem to have lacked the experience of). Yet few of them have the time or =
the interest to get involved in the conversation (indeed=2C may don't seem =
to know that the conversation even exists). I know that I have too many oth=
er pulls on my time and interests to devote as much to these issues as I wo=
uld like -- and I've been more involved than most of my peers (my long sile=
nces are due not to a lack of interest=2C but to a lack of time). And with =
the work load for teachers increasing as it seems to be doing=2C it doesn't=
look like this will change at any time soon. Also=2C I think most uf us at=
the secondary level seem to believe (and perhaps rightly) that the issues =
of grammar (which they see as one of error correction mostly) should have b=
een dealt with in elementary and middle school. I believe that unless eleme=
ntary and middle school teachers are recruited more dynamically into this c=
onversation=2C change can't happen. What are your thoughts & experiences? =
Paul D.
"If this were play'd upon a stage now=2C I could condemn it as an improbab=
le fiction" (_Twelfth Night_ 3.4.127-128).=20
From: Craig Hancock <[log in to unmask]>To: [log in to unmask]: S=
unday=2C December 14=2C 2008 9:20:24 AMSubject: Re: Conservatives!Bob=2C I=
agree with some conservatives much more than I agree with others. Idon't l=
ike the views of grammar typical of "progressive" educators.This sort of re=
sponse doesn't help. I don't think "conservative" is abad name. ATEG is a =
conservative organization. Most of the conversation on list isabout whether=
something is "correct" or about how to classify something=2Cusually using =
structural or traditional grammar as the lens. If you areinterested in alte=
rnative approaches=2C as I am=2C you can feel somewhatlonely. It's not just=
that people disagree with those views=2C but thatthere's not the sort of r=
obust discussion about them that there shouldbe on a grammar list. As group=
s go=2C it's a conservative group. If that's the case=2C it would make sen=
se that many people would wonderwhy we need a scope and sequence. Don't the=
y already exist? Isn't it amatter of just getting endorsement for the grama=
mr that's already outthere? I don't agree with that position=2C but I can =
respect it. I can also tryto understand the nature of the difficulties invo=
lved in moving forwardwith a scope and sequence throught ATEG. 1) NCTE is =
oppossed to it=2C and we are an NCTE subgroup. 2) Most people on ATEG adhe=
re to perspectives on gramamr that arealready somewhat established (even if=
their teaching is not.) Frankly=2C Ithink we would be much better off if w=
e went back to the teaching ofgrammar I was given growing up=2C but we don'=
t necessarily have to dothat. A great deal has happened since the 1950's=2C=
much of it so muchmore friendly to applications in reading and writing.Cra=
ig>What an interesting way of characterizing views of grammar that disagre=
e> with your own!>> Craig writes:>> My own tendency has been to lobby for n=
ew ways of looking at grammar=2C but> ATEG has long been an organization m=
ade> up of people with fairly conservative (not regressive=2C not by a long=
> shot) views. This was hard on me because I felt I had a lot invested in>=
the project=2C but would be asked to shut out from the conversation the> n=
ew possibilities in grammar that excite me the most.>> ****> Of course=2C t=
here is no hostility in characterizing others views with the> term "fairly =
conservative.">> Craig=2C I appreciate such an honest appraisal of others v=
iews of the nature> of language.>> Bob Yates=2C University of Central Misso=
uri>> To join or leave this LISTSERV list=2C please visit the list's web in=
terface> at:> http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html> and selec=
t "Join or leave the list">> Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/>To j=
oin or leave this LISTSERV list=2C please visit the list's web interface at=
: http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.htmland select "Join or leave=
the list"Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/To join or leave this LI=
STSERV list=2C please visit the list's web interface at: http://listserv.mu=
ohio.edu/archives/ateg.html and select "Join or leave the list" Visit ATEG'=
s web site at http://ateg.org/
Send e-mail faster without improving your typing skills. Get your Hotmail=
=AE account. To join or leave this LISTSERV list=2C please visit the list's=
web interface at: http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html and select=
"Join or leave the list"=20
Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/To join or leave this LISTSERV lis=
t=2C please visit the list's web interface at: http://listserv.muohio.edu/a=
rchives/ateg.html and select "Join or leave the list"=20
Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/
_________________________________________________________________
You live life online. So we put Windows on the web.=20
http://clk.atdmt.com/MRT/go/127032869/direct/01/=
To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web interface
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Paul - Yes=2C of course you're right! =3B I think that grammar has =
=3Bbeen so marginalized that people don't recognize its vital importance to=
the entire range of language arts - that which allows you to write also al=
lows you to read and all of the other =3Bcreative acts =3Byou menti=
on - including thinking! =3B In fact=2C I've got an upcoming gig to spe=
ak at the College English Association. Topic - "Thinking in the Context of =
Grammar"! =3B Should be interesting. =3B Any and all advice accepte=
d!<BR><BR>Geoff Layton<BR><BR><BR><BR>
<HR id=3DstopSpelling>
Date: Sun=2C 14 Dec 2008 14:03:38 -0800<BR>From: [log in to unmask]<BR>Subje=
ct: Re: Engaging in the grammar trenches (was: Conservatives!)<BR>To: ATEG@=
LISTSERV.MUOHIO.EDU<BR><BR>
<STYLE>
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{=3B}
</STYLE>
<DIV style=3D"FONT-SIZE: 10pt=3B FONT-FAMILY: verdana=2C helvetica=2C sans-=
serif">
<DIV></DIV>
<DIV>Geoff=2C</DIV>
<DIV> =3B</DIV>
<DIV>I think you're right=2C but I'd also add that there's a need for gramm=
ar instruction in connection with the other parts of the Language Arts umbr=
ella besides just writing: Reading=2C Listening=2C Speaking=2C and Thinkng.=
For example=2C I have found many times that grammatical analysis can help =
students understand literary texts (and have written about this).</DIV>
<DIV> =3B</DIV>
<DIV>Paul<BR> =3B</DIV>"If this were play'd upon a stage now=2C I could=
condemn it as an improbable fiction" (_Twelfth Night_ 3.4.127-128).=20
<DIV><BR></DIV>
<DIV style=3D"FONT-SIZE: 10pt=3B FONT-FAMILY: verdana=2C helvetica=2C sans-=
serif"><BR>
<DIV style=3D"FONT-SIZE: 12pt=3B FONT-FAMILY: times new roman=2C new york=
=2C times=2C serif"><FONT face=3DTahoma size=3D2>
<HR SIZE=3D1>
<B><SPAN style=3D"FONT-WEIGHT: bold">From:</SPAN></B> Geoffrey Layton <=
[log in to unmask]>=3B<BR><B><SPAN style=3D"FONT-WEIGHT: bold">To:<=
/SPAN></B> [log in to unmask]<BR><B><SPAN style=3D"FONT-WEIGHT: bold"=
>Sent:</SPAN></B> Sunday=2C December 14=2C 2008 12:58:43 PM<BR><B><SPAN sty=
le=3D"FONT-WEIGHT: bold">Subject:</SPAN></B> Re: Engaging in the grammar tr=
enches (was: Conservatives!)<BR></FONT><BR>
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From the situation you describe I think has arisen the "grammar in context"=
crowd=2C which as Martha has pointed out is dedicated to teaching the same=
old grammar rules=2C but with a new and more "politically correct" name - =
i.e.=2C one that seems to respond to the NCTE injunction against grammar in=
struction. =3B The problem as I see it is not so much that students don=
't know their adverbials from their adjectivals=2C but that they don't know=
how to use the basic structure/grammar of the language to create the meani=
ng that they for the most part are capable of. =3B I think this goes ba=
ck to the previous discussion where Bob brought up the structural deficienc=
ies of basic writers and how we as writing teachers have such great difficu=
lties dealing with these problems.<BR><BR>Geoff Layton<BR><BR><BR><BR>
<HR id=3DEC_stopSpelling>
Date: Sun=2C 14 Dec 2008 08:28:03 -0800<BR>From: [log in to unmask]<BR>Subje=
ct: Re: Engaging in the grammar trenches (was: Conservatives!)<BR>To: ATEG@=
LISTSERV.MUOHIO.EDU<BR><BR>
<STYLE>
.ExternalClass DIV
{=3B}
</STYLE>
<DIV style=3D"FONT-SIZE: 12pt=3B FONT-FAMILY: bookman old style=2C new york=
=2C times=2C serif">
<DIV></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DVerdana>This reminds me of the rather curious observation=
s I have had over the past ten years or so: Most of my high school English =
teaching peers =3Bhave commented on the lack of grammar teaching that t=
heir students have experienced (or seem to have lacked the experience of). =
Yet few of them have the time or the interest =3Bto =3Bget involved=
in the conversation (indeed=2C may don't seem to know that the conversatio=
n even exists). I know that I have too many other pulls on my time and inte=
rests to devote as much to these issues as I would like -- and I've been mo=
re involved than most of my peers (my long silences are due not to a lack o=
f interest=2C but to a lack of time). And with the work load for teachers i=
ncreasing as it seems to be doing=2C it doesn't look like this will change =
at any time soon.</FONT></DIV><FONT face=3DVerdana></FONT> =3B<BR><FONT=
face=3DVerdana>Also=2C I think most uf us at the secondary level seem to b=
elieve (and perhaps rightly) that the issues of grammar (which they see as =
one of error correction mostly) should have been dealt with in elementary a=
nd middle school. I believe that unless elementary and middle school teache=
rs are recruited more dynamically into this conversation=2C change can't ha=
ppen.</FONT><BR><FONT face=3DVerdana></FONT> =3B<BR><FONT face=3DVerdan=
a>What are your thoughts &=3B experiences? </FONT><BR><FONT face=3DVerda=
na></FONT> =3B<BR><FONT face=3DVerdana>Paul D.</FONT><BR>
<DIV><BR> =3B</DIV><FONT size=3D2>"If this were play'd upon a stage now=
=2C I could condemn it as an improbable fiction" (_Twelfth Night_ 3.4.127-1=
28).</FONT>=20
<DIV><BR></DIV>
<DIV style=3D"FONT-SIZE: 12pt=3B FONT-FAMILY: bookman old style=2C new york=
=2C times=2C serif"><BR>
<DIV style=3D"FONT-SIZE: 12pt=3B FONT-FAMILY: bookman old style=2C new york=
=2C times=2C serif"><FONT face=3DTahoma size=3D2>
<HR SIZE=3D1>
<B><SPAN style=3D"FONT-WEIGHT: bold">From:</SPAN></B> Craig Hancock <=3Bh=
[log in to unmask]>=3B<BR><B><SPAN style=3D"FONT-WEIGHT: bold">To:</SPAN><=
/B> [log in to unmask]<BR><B><SPAN style=3D"FONT-WEIGHT: bold">Sent:<=
/SPAN></B> Sunday=2C December 14=2C 2008 9:20:24 AM<BR><B><SPAN style=3D"FO=
NT-WEIGHT: bold">Subject:</SPAN></B> Re: Conservatives!<BR></FONT><BR>Bob=
=2C<BR> =3B I agree with some conservatives much more than I agree with=
others. I<BR>don't like the views of grammar typical of "progressive" educ=
ators.<BR>This sort of response doesn't help. I don't think "conservative" =
is a<BR>bad name.<BR> =3B ATEG is a conservative organization. Most of =
the conversation on list is<BR>about whether something is "correct" or abou=
t how to classify something=2C<BR>usually using structural or traditional g=
rammar as the lens. If you are<BR>interested in alternative approaches=2C a=
s I am=2C you can feel somewhat<BR>lonely. It's not just that people disagr=
ee with those views=2C but that<BR>there's not the sort of robust discussio=
n about them that there should<BR>be on a grammar list. As groups go=2C it'=
s a conservative group.<BR> =3B If that's the case=2C it would make sen=
se that many people would wonder<BR>why we need a scope and sequence. Don't=
they already exist? Isn't it a<BR>matter of just getting endorsement for t=
he gramamr that's already out<BR>there?<BR> =3B I don't agree with that=
position=2C but I can respect it. I can also try<BR>to understand the natu=
re of the difficulties involved in moving forward<BR>with a scope and seque=
nce throught ATEG.<BR> =3B 1) NCTE is oppossed to it=2C and we are an N=
CTE subgroup.<BR> =3B 2) Most people on ATEG adhere to perspectives on =
gramamr that are<BR>already somewhat established (even if their teaching is=
not.) Frankly=2C I<BR>think we would be much better off if we went back to=
the teaching of<BR>grammar I was given growing up=2C but we don't necessar=
ily have to do<BR>that. A great deal has happened since the 1950's=2C much =
of it so much<BR>more friendly to applications in reading and writing.<BR><=
BR>Craig>=3B<BR><BR>What an =3B interesting way of characterizing vie=
ws of grammar that disagree<BR>>=3B with your own!<BR>>=3B<BR>>=3B Cr=
aig writes:<BR>>=3B<BR>>=3B My own tendency has been to lobby for new&n=
bsp=3B ways of looking at grammar=2C but<BR>>=3B ATEG has long been an or=
ganization made<BR>>=3B up of people with fairly conservative (not regres=
sive=2C not by a long<BR>>=3B shot) views. =3B This was hard on me be=
cause I felt I had a lot invested in<BR>>=3B the project=2C but would be =
asked to shut out from the conversation the<BR>>=3B new possibilities in =
grammar that excite me the most.<BR>>=3B<BR>>=3B ****<BR>>=3B Of cour=
se=2C there is no hostility in characterizing others views with the<BR>>=
=3B term "fairly conservative."<BR>>=3B<BR>>=3B Craig=2C I appreciate s=
uch an honest appraisal of others views of the nature<BR>>=3B of language=
.<BR>>=3B<BR>>=3B Bob Yates=2C University of Central Missouri<BR>>=3B=
<BR>>=3B To join or leave this LISTSERV list=2C please visit the list's w=
eb interface<BR>>=3B at:<BR>>=3B =3B  =3B  =3B <A href=3D"h=
ttp://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html" rel=3Dnofollow>http://listser=
v.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html</A><BR>>=3B and select "Join or leave the=
list"<BR>>=3B<BR>>=3B Visit ATEG's web site at <A href=3D"http://ateg.=
org/" rel=3Dnofollow>http://ateg.org/</A><BR>>=3B<BR><BR>To join or leave=
this LISTSERV list=2C please visit the list's web interface at:<BR> =
=3B  =3B <A href=3D"http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html" rel=
=3Dnofollow>http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html</A><BR>and select=
"Join or leave the list"<BR><BR>Visit ATEG's web site at <A href=3D"http:/=
/ateg.org/" rel=3Dnofollow>http://ateg.org/</A><BR></DIV></DIV></DIV>To joi=
n or leave this LISTSERV list=2C please visit the list's web interface at: =
http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html and select "Join or leave the=
list" Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/<BR><BR>
<HR>
Send e-mail faster without improving your typing skills. <A href=3D"http://=
windowslive.com/Explore/hotmail?ocid=3DTXT_TAGLM_WL_hotmail_acq_speed_12200=
8" rel=3Dnofollow>Get your Hotmail=AE account.</A> To join or leave this LI=
STSERV list=2C please visit the list's web interface at: http://listserv.mu=
ohio.edu/archives/ateg.html and select "Join or leave the list"=20
Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/<BR></DIV></DIV></DIV>To join or l=
eave this LISTSERV list=2C please visit the list's web interface at: http:/=
/listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html and select "Join or leave the list"=
=20
Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/<BR><br /><hr />You live life onli=
ne. So we put Windows on the web. <a href=3D'http://clk.atdmt.com/MRT/go/1=
27032869/direct/01/' target=3D'_new'>Learn more about Windows Live </a></bo=
dy>
</html>=
To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web interface
at:
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and select "Join or leave the list"
<p>
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--_ffa8e79f-34aa-45d4-b3ec-2382c9dcda9d_--
------------------------------
Date: Sun, 14 Dec 2008 18:28:47 -0600
From: Geoffrey Layton <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Re: Engaging in the grammar trenches (was: Conservatives!)
--_c2e355b1-bd2a-4260-987c-6a175b075e6d_
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
PS: Does our exchange fall into the conservative or the liberal camp?Geoff=
Layton
=20
PPS: Bob - I'd appreciate your inciteful voice on this. You bring an acade=
mic bent to the discussion that's valuable.
Date: Sun=2C 14 Dec 2008 14:03:38 -0800From: [log in to unmask]: Re: =
Engaging in the grammar trenches (was: Conservatives!)To: [log in to unmask]
HIO.EDU
Geoff=2C
=20
I think you're right=2C but I'd also add that there's a need for grammar in=
struction in connection with the other parts of the Language Arts umbrella =
besides just writing: Reading=2C Listening=2C Speaking=2C and Thinkng. For =
example=2C I have found many times that grammatical analysis can help stude=
nts understand literary texts (and have written about this).
=20
Paul "If this were play'd upon a stage now=2C I could condemn it as an impr=
obable fiction" (_Twelfth Night_ 3.4.127-128).=20
From: Geoffrey Layton <[log in to unmask]>To: [log in to unmask]
nt: Sunday=2C December 14=2C 2008 12:58:43 PMSubject: Re: Engaging in the g=
rammar trenches (was: Conservatives!)
From the situation you describe I think has arisen the "grammar in context"=
crowd=2C which as Martha has pointed out is dedicated to teaching the same=
old grammar rules=2C but with a new and more "politically correct" name - =
i.e.=2C one that seems to respond to the NCTE injunction against grammar in=
struction. The problem as I see it is not so much that students don't know=
their adverbials from their adjectivals=2C but that they don't know how to=
use the basic structure/grammar of the language to create the meaning that=
they for the most part are capable of. I think this goes back to the prev=
ious discussion where Bob brought up the structural deficiencies of basic w=
riters and how we as writing teachers have such great difficulties dealing =
with these problems.Geoff Layton
Date: Sun=2C 14 Dec 2008 08:28:03 -0800From: [log in to unmask]: Re: =
Engaging in the grammar trenches (was: Conservatives!)To: [log in to unmask]
HIO.EDU
This reminds me of the rather curious observations I have had over the past=
ten years or so: Most of my high school English teaching peers have commen=
ted on the lack of grammar teaching that their students have experienced (o=
r seem to have lacked the experience of). Yet few of them have the time or =
the interest to get involved in the conversation (indeed=2C may don't seem =
to know that the conversation even exists). I know that I have too many oth=
er pulls on my time and interests to devote as much to these issues as I wo=
uld like -- and I've been more involved than most of my peers (my long sile=
nces are due not to a lack of interest=2C but to a lack of time). And with =
the work load for teachers increasing as it seems to be doing=2C it doesn't=
look like this will change at any time soon. Also=2C I think most uf us at=
the secondary level seem to believe (and perhaps rightly) that the issues =
of grammar (which they see as one of error correction mostly) should have b=
een dealt with in elementary and middle school. I believe that unless eleme=
ntary and middle school teachers are recruited more dynamically into this c=
onversation=2C change can't happen. What are your thoughts & experiences? =
Paul D.
"If this were play'd upon a stage now=2C I could condemn it as an improbab=
le fiction" (_Twelfth Night_ 3.4.127-128).=20
From: Craig Hancock <[log in to unmask]>To: [log in to unmask]: S=
unday=2C December 14=2C 2008 9:20:24 AMSubject: Re: Conservatives!Bob=2C I=
agree with some conservatives much more than I agree with others. Idon't l=
ike the views of grammar typical of "progressive" educators.This sort of re=
sponse doesn't help. I don't think "conservative" is abad name. ATEG is a =
conservative organization. Most of the conversation on list isabout whether=
something is "correct" or about how to classify something=2Cusually using =
structural or traditional grammar as the lens. If you areinterested in alte=
rnative approaches=2C as I am=2C you can feel somewhatlonely. It's not just=
that people disagree with those views=2C but thatthere's not the sort of r=
obust discussion about them that there shouldbe on a grammar list. As group=
s go=2C it's a conservative group. If that's the case=2C it would make sen=
se that many people would wonderwhy we need a scope and sequence. Don't the=
y already exist? Isn't it amatter of just getting endorsement for the grama=
mr that's already outthere? I don't agree with that position=2C but I can =
respect it. I can also tryto understand the nature of the difficulties invo=
lved in moving forwardwith a scope and sequence throught ATEG. 1) NCTE is =
oppossed to it=2C and we are an NCTE subgroup. 2) Most people on ATEG adhe=
re to perspectives on gramamr that arealready somewhat established (even if=
their teaching is not.) Frankly=2C Ithink we would be much better off if w=
e went back to the teaching ofgrammar I was given growing up=2C but we don'=
t necessarily have to dothat. A great deal has happened since the 1950's=2C=
much of it so muchmore friendly to applications in reading and writing.Cra=
ig>What an interesting way of characterizing views of grammar that disagre=
e> with your own!>> Craig writes:>> My own tendency has been to lobby for n=
ew ways of looking at grammar=2C but> ATEG has long been an organization m=
ade> up of people with fairly conservative (not regressive=2C not by a long=
> shot) views. This was hard on me because I felt I had a lot invested in>=
the project=2C but would be asked to shut out from the conversation the> n=
ew possibilities in grammar that excite me the most.>> ****> Of course=2C t=
here is no hostility in characterizing others views with the> term "fairly =
conservative.">> Craig=2C I appreciate such an honest appraisal of others v=
iews of the nature> of language.>> Bob Yates=2C University of Central Misso=
uri>> To join or leave this LISTSERV list=2C please visit the list's web in=
terface> at:> http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html> and selec=
t "Join or leave the list">> Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/>To j=
oin or leave this LISTSERV list=2C please visit the list's web interface at=
: http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.htmland select "Join or leave=
the list"Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/To join or leave this LI=
STSERV list=2C please visit the list's web interface at: http://listserv.mu=
ohio.edu/archives/ateg.html and select "Join or leave the list" Visit ATEG'=
s web site at http://ateg.org/
Send e-mail faster without improving your typing skills. Get your Hotmail=
=AE account. To join or leave this LISTSERV list=2C please visit the list's=
web interface at: http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html and select=
"Join or leave the list"=20
Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/To join or leave this LISTSERV lis=
t=2C please visit the list's web interface at: http://listserv.muohio.edu/a=
rchives/ateg.html and select "Join or leave the list"=20
Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/
_________________________________________________________________
Send e-mail anywhere. No map=2C no compass.
http://windowslive.com/Explore/hotmail?ocid=3DTXT_TAGLM_WL_hotmail_acq_anyw=
here_122008=
To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web interface
at:
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and select "Join or leave the list"
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--_c2e355b1-bd2a-4260-987c-6a175b075e6d_
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<body class=3D'hmmessage'>
PS: =3B Does our =3Bexchange fall into the conservative or the libe=
ral camp?<BR><BR>Geoff Layton<BR>
 =3B<BR>
PPS: =3B Bob - I'd appreciate your inciteful voice on this. =3BYou =
bring an academic bent to the discussion that's valuable.<BR><BR><BR><BR><B=
R>
<HR id=3DstopSpelling>
<BR>
Date: Sun=2C 14 Dec 2008 14:03:38 -0800<BR>From: [log in to unmask]<BR>Subje=
ct: Re: Engaging in the grammar trenches (was: Conservatives!)<BR>To: ATEG@=
LISTSERV.MUOHIO.EDU<BR><BR><BR>
<STYLE>
.ExternalClass DIV
{=3B}
</STYLE>
<DIV style=3D"FONT-SIZE: 10pt=3B FONT-FAMILY: verdana=2C helvetica=2C sans-=
serif">
<DIV></DIV>
<DIV>Geoff=2C</DIV>
<DIV> =3B</DIV>
<DIV>I think you're right=2C but I'd also add that there's a need for gramm=
ar instruction in connection with the other parts of the Language Arts umbr=
ella besides just writing: Reading=2C Listening=2C Speaking=2C and Thinkng.=
For example=2C I have found many times that grammatical analysis can help =
students understand literary texts (and have written about this).</DIV>
<DIV> =3B</DIV>
<DIV>Paul<BR> =3B</DIV>"If this were play'd upon a stage now=2C I could=
condemn it as an improbable fiction" (_Twelfth Night_ 3.4.127-128).=20
<DIV><BR></DIV>
<DIV style=3D"FONT-SIZE: 10pt=3B FONT-FAMILY: verdana=2C helvetica=2C sans-=
serif"><BR>
<DIV style=3D"FONT-SIZE: 12pt=3B FONT-FAMILY: times new roman=2C new york=
=2C times=2C serif"><FONT face=3DTahoma size=3D2>
<HR SIZE=3D1>
<B><SPAN style=3D"FONT-WEIGHT: bold">From:</SPAN></B> Geoffrey Layton <=
[log in to unmask]>=3B<BR><B><SPAN style=3D"FONT-WEIGHT: bold">To:<=
/SPAN></B> [log in to unmask]<BR><B><SPAN style=3D"FONT-WEIGHT: bold"=
>Sent:</SPAN></B> Sunday=2C December 14=2C 2008 12:58:43 PM<BR><B><SPAN sty=
le=3D"FONT-WEIGHT: bold">Subject:</SPAN></B> Re: Engaging in the grammar tr=
enches (was: Conservatives!)<BR></FONT><BR>
<STYLE>
.ExternalClass .EC_hmmessage P
{padding:0px=3B}
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From the situation you describe I think has arisen the "grammar in context"=
crowd=2C which as Martha has pointed out is dedicated to teaching the same=
old grammar rules=2C but with a new and more "politically correct" name - =
i.e.=2C one that seems to respond to the NCTE injunction against grammar in=
struction. =3B The problem as I see it is not so much that students don=
't know their adverbials from their adjectivals=2C but that they don't know=
how to use the basic structure/grammar of the language to create the meani=
ng that they for the most part are capable of. =3B I think this goes ba=
ck to the previous discussion where Bob brought up the structural deficienc=
ies of basic writers and how we as writing teachers have such great difficu=
lties dealing with these problems.<BR><BR>Geoff Layton<BR><BR><BR><BR>
<HR id=3DEC_stopSpelling>
Date: Sun=2C 14 Dec 2008 08:28:03 -0800<BR>From: [log in to unmask]<BR>Subje=
ct: Re: Engaging in the grammar trenches (was: Conservatives!)<BR>To: ATEG@=
LISTSERV.MUOHIO.EDU<BR><BR>
<STYLE>
.ExternalClass DIV
{=3B}
</STYLE>
<DIV style=3D"FONT-SIZE: 12pt=3B FONT-FAMILY: bookman old style=2C new york=
=2C times=2C serif">
<DIV></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DVerdana>This reminds me of the rather curious observation=
s I have had over the past ten years or so: Most of my high school English =
teaching peers =3Bhave commented on the lack of grammar teaching that t=
heir students have experienced (or seem to have lacked the experience of). =
Yet few of them have the time or the interest =3Bto =3Bget involved=
in the conversation (indeed=2C may don't seem to know that the conversatio=
n even exists). I know that I have too many other pulls on my time and inte=
rests to devote as much to these issues as I would like -- and I've been mo=
re involved than most of my peers (my long silences are due not to a lack o=
f interest=2C but to a lack of time). And with the work load for teachers i=
ncreasing as it seems to be doing=2C it doesn't look like this will change =
at any time soon.</FONT></DIV><FONT face=3DVerdana></FONT> =3B<BR><FONT=
face=3DVerdana>Also=2C I think most uf us at the secondary level seem to b=
elieve (and perhaps rightly) that the issues of grammar (which they see as =
one of error correction mostly) should have been dealt with in elementary a=
nd middle school. I believe that unless elementary and middle school teache=
rs are recruited more dynamically into this conversation=2C change can't ha=
ppen.</FONT><BR><FONT face=3DVerdana></FONT> =3B<BR><FONT face=3DVerdan=
a>What are your thoughts &=3B experiences? </FONT><BR><FONT face=3DVerda=
na></FONT> =3B<BR><FONT face=3DVerdana>Paul D.</FONT><BR>
<DIV><BR> =3B</DIV><FONT size=3D2>"If this were play'd upon a stage now=
=2C I could condemn it as an improbable fiction" (_Twelfth Night_ 3.4.127-1=
28).</FONT>=20
<DIV><BR></DIV>
<DIV style=3D"FONT-SIZE: 12pt=3B FONT-FAMILY: bookman old style=2C new york=
=2C times=2C serif"><BR>
<DIV style=3D"FONT-SIZE: 12pt=3B FONT-FAMILY: bookman old style=2C new york=
=2C times=2C serif"><FONT face=3DTahoma size=3D2>
<HR SIZE=3D1>
<B><SPAN style=3D"FONT-WEIGHT: bold">From:</SPAN></B> Craig Hancock <=3Bh=
[log in to unmask]>=3B<BR><B><SPAN style=3D"FONT-WEIGHT: bold">To:</SPAN><=
/B> [log in to unmask]<BR><B><SPAN style=3D"FONT-WEIGHT: bold">Sent:<=
/SPAN></B> Sunday=2C December 14=2C 2008 9:20:24 AM<BR><B><SPAN style=3D"FO=
NT-WEIGHT: bold">Subject:</SPAN></B> Re: Conservatives!<BR></FONT><BR>Bob=
=2C<BR> =3B I agree with some conservatives much more than I agree with=
others. I<BR>don't like the views of grammar typical of "progressive" educ=
ators.<BR>This sort of response doesn't help. I don't think "conservative" =
is a<BR>bad name.<BR> =3B ATEG is a conservative organization. Most of =
the conversation on list is<BR>about whether something is "correct" or abou=
t how to classify something=2C<BR>usually using structural or traditional g=
rammar as the lens. If you are<BR>interested in alternative approaches=2C a=
s I am=2C you can feel somewhat<BR>lonely. It's not just that people disagr=
ee with those views=2C but that<BR>there's not the sort of robust discussio=
n about them that there should<BR>be on a grammar list. As groups go=2C it'=
s a conservative group.<BR> =3B If that's the case=2C it would make sen=
se that many people would wonder<BR>why we need a scope and sequence. Don't=
they already exist? Isn't it a<BR>matter of just getting endorsement for t=
he gramamr that's already out<BR>there?<BR> =3B I don't agree with that=
position=2C but I can respect it. I can also try<BR>to understand the natu=
re of the difficulties involved in moving forward<BR>with a scope and seque=
nce throught ATEG.<BR> =3B 1) NCTE is oppossed to it=2C and we are an N=
CTE subgroup.<BR> =3B 2) Most people on ATEG adhere to perspectives on =
gramamr that are<BR>already somewhat established (even if their teaching is=
not.) Frankly=2C I<BR>think we would be much better off if we went back to=
the teaching of<BR>grammar I was given growing up=2C but we don't necessar=
ily have to do<BR>that. A great deal has happened since the 1950's=2C much =
of it so much<BR>more friendly to applications in reading and writing.<BR><=
BR>Craig>=3B<BR><BR>What an =3B interesting way of characterizing vie=
ws of grammar that disagree<BR>>=3B with your own!<BR>>=3B<BR>>=3B Cr=
aig writes:<BR>>=3B<BR>>=3B My own tendency has been to lobby for new&n=
bsp=3B ways of looking at grammar=2C but<BR>>=3B ATEG has long been an or=
ganization made<BR>>=3B up of people with fairly conservative (not regres=
sive=2C not by a long<BR>>=3B shot) views. =3B This was hard on me be=
cause I felt I had a lot invested in<BR>>=3B the project=2C but would be =
asked to shut out from the conversation the<BR>>=3B new possibilities in =
grammar that excite me the most.<BR>>=3B<BR>>=3B ****<BR>>=3B Of cour=
se=2C there is no hostility in characterizing others views with the<BR>>=
=3B term "fairly conservative."<BR>>=3B<BR>>=3B Craig=2C I appreciate s=
uch an honest appraisal of others views of the nature<BR>>=3B of language=
.<BR>>=3B<BR>>=3B Bob Yates=2C University of Central Missouri<BR>>=3B=
<BR>>=3B To join or leave this LISTSERV list=2C please visit the list's w=
eb interface<BR>>=3B at:<BR>>=3B =3B  =3B  =3B <A href=3D"h=
ttp://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html" rel=3Dnofollow>http://listser=
v.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html</A><BR>>=3B and select "Join or leave the=
list"<BR>>=3B<BR>>=3B Visit ATEG's web site at <A href=3D"http://ateg.=
org/" rel=3Dnofollow>http://ateg.org/</A><BR>>=3B<BR><BR>To join or leave=
this LISTSERV list=2C please visit the list's web interface at:<BR> =
=3B  =3B <A href=3D"http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html" rel=
=3Dnofollow>http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html</A><BR>and select=
"Join or leave the list"<BR><BR>Visit ATEG's web site at <A href=3D"http:/=
/ateg.org/" rel=3Dnofollow>http://ateg.org/</A><BR></DIV></DIV></DIV>To joi=
n or leave this LISTSERV list=2C please visit the list's web interface at: =
http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html and select "Join or leave the=
list" Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/<BR><BR>
<HR>
Send e-mail faster without improving your typing skills. <A href=3D"http://=
windowslive.com/Explore/hotmail?ocid=3DTXT_TAGLM_WL_hotmail_acq_speed_12200=
8" rel=3Dnofollow>Get your Hotmail=AE account.</A> To join or leave this LI=
STSERV list=2C please visit the list's web interface at: http://listserv.mu=
ohio.edu/archives/ateg.html and select "Join or leave the list"=20
Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/<BR></DIV></DIV></DIV>To join or l=
eave this LISTSERV list=2C please visit the list's web interface at: http:/=
/listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html and select "Join or leave the list"=
=20
Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/<BR><br /><hr />Send e-mail anywhe=
re. No map=2C no compass. <a href=3D'http://windowslive.com/Explore/hotmail=
?ocid=3DTXT_TAGLM_WL_hotmail_acq_anywhere_122008' target=3D'_new'>Get your =
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To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web interface
at:
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and select "Join or leave the list"
<p>
Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/
--_c2e355b1-bd2a-4260-987c-6a175b075e6d_--
------------------------------
Date: Sun, 14 Dec 2008 20:40:33 -0500
From: "STAHLKE, HERBERT F" <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Re: Engaging in the grammar trenches (was: Conservatives!)
--_000_0DDF38BA66ECD847B39F1FD4C801D5431163F8F072EMAILBACKEND0_
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Here's a poem by Sir Philip Sydney that I used to use towards the end of th=
e semester in my undergrad grammar course.
With how Sad Steps, O Moon
Sir Philip Sidney (1554-1586)
With how sad steps, O Moon, thou climb'st the skies,
How silently, and with how wan a face!
What! May it be that even in heav'nly place
That busy archer his sharp arrows tries?
5 Sure, if that long-with-love-acquainted eyes
Can judge of love, thou feel'st a lover's case.
I read it in thy looks, thy languisht grace
To me, that feel the like, thy state descries.
Then, ev'n of fellowship, O Moon, tell me,
10 Is constant love deem'd there but want of wit?
Are beauties there as proud as here they be?
Do they above love to be lov'd, and yet
Those lovers scorn whom that love doth possess?
Do they call virtue there ungratefulness?
I would have them work in small groups to paraphrase the poem, and they cou=
ld use a dictionary. The poem contains an instance of "that" that would no=
t occur in Modern English, "if that" in l.5, where "that" is used with a su=
bordinating conjunction in a way that was common in Early Modern English. =
I gave them that one, but they had a terrible time with ll.3-4, 7-8, 12-13.=
We would then do a grammatical analysis, looking especially at verb compl=
ementation (constituents licensed by the verb), order of constituents, and =
voice. Then they would do another paraphrase, and at that point they were =
able to delve into the meaning of the poem and the irony Sydney employs. T=
he poem is challenging, but students frequently commented afterwards how us=
eful they found grammatical analysis in other poetry they read, and occasio=
nally in prose. Throughout the semester I had had them find in newspapers =
and magazines examples of structures and functions we were studying at that=
time, so they were already beginning to think in terms of applying grammat=
ical analysis to what they were reading.
Herb
From: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar [mailto:[log in to unmask]
OHIO.EDU] On Behalf Of Paul E. Doniger
Sent: 2008-12-14 11:28
To: [log in to unmask]
Subject: Re: Engaging in the grammar trenches (was: Conservatives!)
This reminds me of the rather curious observations I have had over the past=
ten years or so: Most of my high school English teaching peers have commen=
ted on the lack of grammar teaching that their students have experienced (o=
r seem to have lacked the experience of). Yet few of them have the time or =
the interest to get involved in the conversation (indeed, may don't seem to=
know that the conversation even exists). I know that I have too many other=
pulls on my time and interests to devote as much to these issues as I woul=
d like -- and I've been more involved than most of my peers (my long silenc=
es are due not to a lack of interest, but to a lack of time). And with the =
work load for teachers increasing as it seems to be doing, it doesn't look =
like this will change at any time soon.
Also, I think most uf us at the secondary level seem to believe (and perhap=
s rightly) that the issues of grammar (which they see as one of error corre=
ction mostly) should have been dealt with in elementary and middle school. =
I believe that unless elementary and middle school teachers are recruited m=
ore dynamically into this conversation, change can't happen.
What are your thoughts & experiences?
Paul D.
"If this were play'd upon a stage now, I could condemn it as an improbable =
fiction" (_Twelfth Night_ 3.4.127-128).
________________________________
From: Craig Hancock <[log in to unmask]>
To: [log in to unmask]
Sent: Sunday, December 14, 2008 9:20:24 AM
Subject: Re: Conservatives!
Bob,
I agree with some conservatives much more than I agree with others. I
don't like the views of grammar typical of "progressive" educators.
This sort of response doesn't help. I don't think "conservative" is a
bad name.
ATEG is a conservative organization. Most of the conversation on list is
about whether something is "correct" or about how to classify something,
usually using structural or traditional grammar as the lens. If you are
interested in alternative approaches, as I am, you can feel somewhat
lonely. It's not just that people disagree with those views, but that
there's not the sort of robust discussion about them that there should
be on a grammar list. As groups go, it's a conservative group.
If that's the case, it would make sense that many people would wonder
why we need a scope and sequence. Don't they already exist? Isn't it a
matter of just getting endorsement for the gramamr that's already out
there?
I don't agree with that position, but I can respect it. I can also try
to understand the nature of the difficulties involved in moving forward
with a scope and sequence throught ATEG.
1) NCTE is oppossed to it, and we are an NCTE subgroup.
2) Most people on ATEG adhere to perspectives on gramamr that are
already somewhat established (even if their teaching is not.) Frankly, I
think we would be much better off if we went back to the teaching of
grammar I was given growing up, but we don't necessarily have to do
that. A great deal has happened since the 1950's, much of it so much
more friendly to applications in reading and writing.
Craig>
What an interesting way of characterizing views of grammar that disagree
> with your own!
>
> Craig writes:
>
> My own tendency has been to lobby for new ways of looking at grammar, bu=
t
> ATEG has long been an organization made
> up of people with fairly conservative (not regressive, not by a long
> shot) views. This was hard on me because I felt I had a lot invested in
> the project, but would be asked to shut out from the conversation the
> new possibilities in grammar that excite me the most.
>
> ****
> Of course, there is no hostility in characterizing others views with the
> term "fairly conservative."
>
> Craig, I appreciate such an honest appraisal of others views of the natur=
e
> of language.
>
> Bob Yates, University of Central Missouri
>
> To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web interfac=
e
> at:
> http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html
> and select "Join or leave the list"
>
> Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/
>
To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web interface =
at:
http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html
and select "Join or leave the list"
Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/
To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web interface =
at: http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html and select "Join or leave=
the list"
Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/
To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web interface
at:
http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html
and select "Join or leave the list"
Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/
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<p class=3DMsoNormal><span style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",=
"sans-serif";
color:#1F497D'>Here’s a poem by Sir Philip Sydney that I used to use
towards the end of the semester in my undergrad grammar course.<o:p></o:p><=
/span></p>
<p class=3DMsoNormal><span style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",=
"sans-serif";
color:#1F497D'><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<h1><span style=3D'font-size:11.0pt'>With how Sad Steps, O Moon<o:p></o:p><=
/span></h1>
<p class=3DMsoNormal><span style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Arial","s=
ans-serif"'><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class=3DMsoNormal style=3D'text-indent:.5in'><span style=3D'font-size:11=
.0pt;
font-family:"Arial","sans-serif"'>Sir Philip Sidney (1554-1586)<o:p></o:p><=
/span></p>
<p class=3DMsoNormal style=3D'text-indent:.5in'><span style=3D'font-size:11=
.0pt;
font-family:"Arial","sans-serif"'><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class=3DMsoNormal><span style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Arial","s=
ans-serif"'><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class=3DMsoNormal style=3D'text-indent:.5in'><span style=3D'font-size:11=
.0pt;
font-family:"Arial","sans-serif"'>With how sad steps, O Moon, thou
climb’st the skies,<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3DMsoNormal style=3D'text-indent:.5in'><span style=3D'font-size:11=
.0pt;
font-family:"Arial","sans-serif"'>How silently, and with how wan a face!<o:=
p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3DMsoNormal style=3D'text-indent:.5in'><span style=3D'font-size:11=
.0pt;
font-family:"Arial","sans-serif"'>What! May it be that even in
heav’nly place<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3DMsoNormal style=3D'text-indent:.5in'><span style=3D'font-size:11=
.0pt;
font-family:"Arial","sans-serif"'>That busy archer his sharp arrows tries?<=
o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3DMsoNormal><span style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Arial","s=
ans-serif"'>5 Sure,
if that long-with-love-acquainted eyes<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3DMsoNormal style=3D'text-indent:.5in'><span style=3D'font-size:11=
.0pt;
font-family:"Arial","sans-serif"'>Can judge of love, thou feel’st a
lover’s case.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3DMsoNormal style=3D'text-indent:.5in'><span style=3D'font-size:11=
.0pt;
font-family:"Arial","sans-serif"'>I read it in thy looks, thy languisht gra=
ce<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3DMsoNormal style=3D'text-indent:.5in'><span style=3D'font-size:11=
.0pt;
font-family:"Arial","sans-serif"'>To me, that feel the like, thy state desc=
ries.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3DMsoNormal><span style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Arial","s=
ans-serif"'><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class=3DMsoNormal style=3D'text-indent:.5in'><span style=3D'font-size:11=
.0pt;
font-family:"Arial","sans-serif"'>Then, ev’n of fellowship, O Moon, t=
ell
me,<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3DMsoNormal><span style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Arial","s=
ans-serif"'>10 Is
constant love deem’d there but want of wit?<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3DMsoNormal style=3D'text-indent:.5in'><span style=3D'font-size:11=
.0pt;
font-family:"Arial","sans-serif"'>Are beauties there as proud as here they =
be?<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3DMsoNormal style=3D'text-indent:.5in'><span style=3D'font-size:11=
.0pt;
font-family:"Arial","sans-serif"'>Do they above love to be lov’d, and=
yet<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3DMsoNormal style=3D'text-indent:.5in'><span style=3D'font-size:11=
.0pt;
font-family:"Arial","sans-serif"'>Those lovers scorn whom that love doth
possess?<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3DMsoNormal style=3D'text-indent:.5in'><span style=3D'font-size:11=
.0pt;
font-family:"Arial","sans-serif"'>Do they call virtue there ungratefulness?=
<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3DMsoNormal><span style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Arial","s=
ans-serif"'><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class=3DMsoNormal><span style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Arial","s=
ans-serif"'>I
would have them work in small groups to paraphrase the poem, and they could=
use
a dictionary. The poem contains an instance of “that” tha=
t
would not occur in Modern English, “if that” in l.5, where R=
20;that”
is used with a subordinating conjunction in a way that was common in Early
Modern English. I gave them that one, but they had a terrible time wi=
th
ll.3-4, 7-8, 12-13. We would then do a grammatical analysis, looking
especially at verb complementation (constituents licensed by the verb), ord=
er
of constituents, and voice. Then they would do another paraphrase, an=
d at
that point they were able to delve into the meaning of the poem and the iro=
ny
Sydney employs. The poem is challenging, but students frequently
commented afterwards how useful they found grammatical analysis in other po=
etry
they read, and occasionally in prose. Throughout the semester I had h=
ad
them find in newspapers and magazines examples of structures and functions =
we
were studying at that time, so they were already beginning to think in term=
s of
applying grammatical analysis to what they were reading.<o:p></o:p></span><=
/p>
<p class=3DMsoNormal><span style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Arial","s=
ans-serif"'><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class=3DMsoNormal><span style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Arial","s=
ans-serif"'>Herb<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3DMsoNormal><span style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",=
"sans-serif";
color:#1F497D'><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class=3DMsoNormal><span style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",=
"sans-serif";
color:#1F497D'><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<div>
<div style=3D'border:none;border-top:solid #B5C4DF 1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0in =
0in 0in'>
<p class=3DMsoNormal><b><span style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma=
","sans-serif"'>From:</span></b><span
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"'> Assembly for =
the
Teaching of English Grammar [mailto:[log in to unmask]] <b>On Behalf =
Of </b>Paul
E. Doniger<br>
<b>Sent:</b> 2008-12-14 11:28<br>
<b>To:</b> [log in to unmask]<br>
<b>Subject:</b> Re: Engaging in the grammar trenches (was: Conservatives!)<=
o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
</div>
<p class=3DMsoNormal><o:p> </o:p></p>
<div>
<div>
<p class=3DMsoNormal><span style=3D'font-family:"Verdana","sans-serif"'>Thi=
s
reminds me of the rather curious observations I have had over the past ten
years or so: Most of my high school English teaching peers have commen=
ted
on the lack of grammar teaching that their students have experienced (or se=
em
to have lacked the experience of). Yet few of them have the time or the
interest to get involved in the conversation (indeed, may don't s=
eem
to know that the conversation even exists). I know that I have too many oth=
er
pulls on my time and interests to devote as much to these issues as I would
like -- and I've been more involved than most of my peers (my long silences=
are
due not to a lack of interest, but to a lack of time). And with the work lo=
ad
for teachers increasing as it seems to be doing, it doesn't look like this =
will
change at any time soon.</span><span style=3D'font-family:"Bookman Old Styl=
e","serif"'><o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<p><span style=3D'font-family:"Bookman Old Style","serif"'> <o:p></o:p=
></span></p>
<p><span style=3D'font-family:"Verdana","sans-serif"'>Also, I think most uf=
us at
the secondary level seem to believe (and perhaps rightly) that the issues o=
f
grammar (which they see as one of error correction mostly) should have been
dealt with in elementary and middle school. I believe that unless elementar=
y
and middle school teachers are recruited more dynamically into this
conversation, change can't happen.</span><span style=3D'font-family:"Bookma=
n Old Style","serif"'><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p><span style=3D'font-family:"Bookman Old Style","serif"'> <o:p></o:p=
></span></p>
<p><span style=3D'font-family:"Verdana","sans-serif"'>What are your thought=
s
& experiences? </span><span style=3D'font-family:"Bookman Old Style","s=
erif"'><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p><span style=3D'font-family:"Bookman Old Style","serif"'> <o:p></o:p=
></span></p>
<p><span style=3D'font-family:"Verdana","sans-serif"'>Paul D.</span><span
style=3D'font-family:"Bookman Old Style","serif"'><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<div>
<p class=3DMsoNormal><span style=3D'font-family:"Bookman Old Style","serif"=
'><br>
<o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<p class=3DMsoNormal><span style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Bookman O=
ld Style","serif"'>"If
this were play'd upon a stage now, I could condemn it as an improbable
fiction" (_Twelfth Night_ 3.4.127-128).</span><span style=3D'font-fami=
ly:
"Bookman Old Style","serif"'> <o:p></o:p></span></p>
<div>
<p class=3DMsoNormal><span style=3D'font-family:"Bookman Old Style","serif"=
'><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3DMsoNormal><span style=3D'font-family:"Bookman Old Style","serif"=
'><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<div>
<div class=3DMsoNormal align=3Dcenter style=3D'text-align:center'><span
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"'>
<hr size=3D1 width=3D"100%" align=3Dcenter>
</span></div>
<p class=3DMsoNormal><b><span style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma=
","sans-serif"'>From:</span></b><span
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"'> Craig Hancock
<[log in to unmask]><br>
<b>To:</b> [log in to unmask]<br>
<b>Sent:</b> Sunday, December 14, 2008 9:20:24 AM<br>
<b>Subject:</b> Re: Conservatives!<br>
</span><span style=3D'font-family:"Bookman Old Style","serif"'><br>
Bob,<br>
I agree with some conservatives much more than I agree with others. =
I<br>
don't like the views of grammar typical of "progressive" educator=
s.<br>
This sort of response doesn't help. I don't think "conservative" =
is a<br>
bad name.<br>
ATEG is a conservative organization. Most of the conversation on lis=
t is<br>
about whether something is "correct" or about how to classify
something,<br>
usually using structural or traditional grammar as the lens. If you are<br>
interested in alternative approaches, as I am, you can feel somewhat<br>
lonely. It's not just that people disagree with those views, but that<br>
there's not the sort of robust discussion about them that there should<br>
be on a grammar list. As groups go, it's a conservative group.<br>
If that's the case, it would make sense that many people would wonde=
r<br>
why we need a scope and sequence. Don't they already exist? Isn't it a<br>
matter of just getting endorsement for the gramamr that's already out<br>
there?<br>
I don't agree with that position, but I can respect it. I can also t=
ry<br>
to understand the nature of the difficulties involved in moving forward<br>
with a scope and sequence throught ATEG.<br>
1) NCTE is oppossed to it, and we are an NCTE subgroup.<br>
2) Most people on ATEG adhere to perspectives on gramamr that are<br=
>
already somewhat established (even if their teaching is not.) Frankly, I<br=
>
think we would be much better off if we went back to the teaching of<br>
grammar I was given growing up, but we don't necessarily have to do<br>
that. A great deal has happened since the 1950's, much of it so much<br>
more friendly to applications in reading and writing.<br>
<br>
Craig><br>
<br>
What an interesting way of characterizing views of grammar that disag=
ree<br>
> with your own!<br>
><br>
> Craig writes:<br>
><br>
> My own tendency has been to lobby for new ways of looking at
grammar, but<br>
> ATEG has long been an organization made<br>
> up of people with fairly conservative (not regressive, not by a long<b=
r>
> shot) views. This was hard on me because I felt I had a lot inve=
sted
in<br>
> the project, but would be asked to shut out from the conversation the<=
br>
> new possibilities in grammar that excite me the most.<br>
><br>
> ****<br>
> Of course, there is no hostility in characterizing others views with t=
he<br>
> term "fairly conservative."<br>
><br>
> Craig, I appreciate such an honest appraisal of others views of the na=
ture<br>
> of language.<br>
><br>
> Bob Yates, University of Central Missouri<br>
><br>
> To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web inter=
face<br>
> at:<br>
> <a href=3D"http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ate=
g.html"
target=3D"_blank">http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html</a><br>
> and select "Join or leave the list"<br>
><br>
> Visit ATEG's web site at <a href=3D"http://ateg.org/" target=3D"_blank=
">http://ateg.org/</a><br>
><br>
<br>
To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web interface =
at:<br>
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target=3D"_blank">http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html</a><br>
and select "Join or leave the list"<br>
<br>
Visit ATEG's web site at <a href=3D"http://ateg.org/" target=3D"_blank">htt=
p://ateg.org/</a><o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
</div>
</div>
<p class=3DMsoNormal>To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the =
list's
web interface at: http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html and select
"Join or leave the list" <o:p></o:p></p>
<p>Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/<o:p></o:p></p>
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Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/
--_000_0DDF38BA66ECD847B39F1FD4C801D5431163F8F072EMAILBACKEND0_--
------------------------------
End of ATEG Digest - 13 Dec 2008 to 14 Dec 2008 (#2008-265)
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