Scott,
I'm sorry that I have already deleted the messages sent concerning the above
subject. I can still attempt a fuller explanation. The idea I had was as
follows.
The genitive in Latin is an inflection of nouns often used to represent the
idea of possession by the thing referred to by the noun that is inflected.
Of course, we don't "possess" friends, but this relation is also expressed
by the genitive. The possessive in English has traditionally be taken as an
inflection on the noun and parallel to the genitive in Latin. However, in
English we have a paraphrastic expression using "of" to express the same
relationship. This complicates the translation of English into Latin and
vice versa, since sometimes the one, and sometimes the other expression
seems more appropriate.
1) my friend -- possessive pronoun -- amicus meus
2) the friend of mine -- paraphrastic possessive -- amicus meus
3) a friend of mine -- double possessive -- amicus meus / unus amici mei
Similarly, if the possessive is a noun, we have:
4) the doctor's friend -- possessive noun -- amicus doctoris / doctoris
amicus
5) the friend of the doctor -- paraphrastic possessive -- doctoris amicus /
amicus doctoris
6) a friend of the doctor's -- double possessive -- unus doctoris amici /
unus doctoris amicus
Traditionally the English is taken as defective when compared to the Latin,
since it cannot easily distinguish the meanings that Latin must.
I think the sentence in your original question has a phrase something like
"the hall of his friend the doctor's." This is not a double possessive in
the above sense; the phrase "of his friend" is completed by the appositive
"the doctor's." The question revolved around the possessive of doctor being
in apposition to the paraphrastic possessive (genitive) "of his friend."
The assumption seemed to be that an equally felicitous expression would
comprise both nouns being complement to the preposition: "of his friend the
doctor." In Latin this would be "amici ejus doctoris" where the genitive
belongs to the whole phrase. Latinizing the English phrase would presumably
place the possessive ending on the nouns of the phrase, not just the word
"doctor."
There seem to be good reasons for putting the possessive ending on the
phrase based on the use of the possessive ending on certain other short
phrases. A particle that occurs as part of a word, but syntactically
belongs to the phrase is called an enclitic. Hence, in the phrase, "the
queen of England's crown" the possessive ending on "England" is an enclitic;
it logically makes the whole noun phrase of which it is a part possessive.
We occassionally find colloquial expressions, of which I cited a few like
"the store on the corner's front window was broken" that use this particular
enclitic. It appears that it will not attach to words that are not nouns.
The final suggestion was that this is the enclitic found on the phrase in
question. It has simply attached itself to the final noun of the noun
phrase, which in this case is in apposition to the other noun. (Whether the
noun is appositional "the doctor" or in a modifying prepositional phrase "of
England" it still stands in an adjectival relationship to the main noun.)
Latin places it in the same case as the noun modified, whereas English seems
to place the whole phrase in the possessive. Even though the main noun is
follows "of" and is a paraphrastic possessive, the appositive that follows
also becomes possessive . This then would be attributing a sort-of double
possessive to the phrase "of his friend the doctor's."
Let me add a footnote. The use of the term "enclitic" for a possessive
might be misunderstood to be referring to the idea that "doctor's" comes
from "doctor his" when the accent is reduced. I do not believe that this
idea can be at all supported, though some older grammarians have expressed
it in print.
Bruce
----- Original Message -----
From: "Scott" <[log in to unmask]>
To: <[log in to unmask]>
Sent: Saturday, January 26, 2008 7:55 AM
Subject: Re: ATEG Digest - 24 Jan 2008 to 25 Jan 2008 (#2008-17)
> Bruce--
> Could you repeat your message and be a little clearer;{)>
> Scott
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar
> [mailto:[log in to unmask]] On Behalf Of ATEG automatic digest
> system
> Sent: Saturday, January 26, 2008 12:07 AM
> To: [log in to unmask]
> Subject: ATEG Digest - 24 Jan 2008 to 25 Jan 2008 (#2008-17)
>
> There are 2 messages totalling 227 lines in this issue.
>
> Topics of the day:
>
> 1. genitive appositive
> 2. ATEG Digest - 23 Jan 2008 to 24 Jan 2008 (#2008-16)
>
> To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web interface
> at:
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> and select "Join or leave the list"
>
> Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/
>
> ----------------------------------------------------------------------
>
> Date: Fri, 25 Jan 2008 07:27:10 -0700
> From: Bruce Despain <[log in to unmask]>
> Subject: Re: genitive appositive
>
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> --____WHPEPQYSAQXEHDGESJXG____--
> --____LPHMXLZMXOMRLFKSEJCW____--
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Date: Fri, 25 Jan 2008 21:45:34 -0500
> From: Scott <[log in to unmask]>
> Subject: Re: ATEG Digest - 23 Jan 2008 to 24 Jan 2008 (#2008-16)
>
> Although I use Joo's Five clocks quite literally, I do not speak to my
> cousins (also farm born but who stayed on the farm) in the same idiolect
> that I would use in a speech to a general audience, or in talking with
> fellow teachers at a teacher's conference, or in talking to colleagues
> at a professional congress/conference, or in giving a lecture at such an
> event.
> It should be noted that Formal English is within the scope of most
> non-English-speaking participants in international conferences; casual
> English is not. When--and only when--I am speaking to or writing an
> article
> for
> highly literate colleagues do I proudly bear the banner of pedantry. My
> formal idiolect in such cases is quite strict.
> In case you wonder, my email to ATEG is more casual than it would be for
> speaking to a general audience--much as if I were speaking with friends
> in general conversation--a good group makes you feel that way.
> Scott Catledge
>
> I wonder whether...I've fallen into the old grammar pedant's trap of
> trying
> to foist my idiolect on the universe.
>>
>>> Thanks, er, muchly,
>>> Bill Spruiell
>
> To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web interface
> at:
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> and select "Join or leave the list"
>
> Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/
>
> ------------------------------
>
> End of ATEG Digest - 24 Jan 2008 to 25 Jan 2008 (#2008-17)
> **********************************************************
>
> To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web interface
> at:
> http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html
> and select "Join or leave the list"
>
> Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/
>
>
To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web interface at:
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Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/
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