Scott,
I'm not sure how you understand the term "standard", but I wouldn't
think of it as something subject to opinion. I think of it as "in
widespread use", or "in noncontroversial use by the mainstream
population in public discourse." If that's the case, then it is an
empirical question, not a question of personal taste. I'm not saying you
can't object to "got run over" (it sounds fine to me, though mildly
informal), but that you shouldn't call it "non-standard" on the basis of
your taste alone.
Is it standard for people to drive sixty miles an hour in a fifty-five
zone? Should they? Those are different questions.
The get passive was/is widespread in the working class world I grew up
in and currently live in. I can hear my dear departed mother telling me
"don't run into the road like that; you'll get run over." The expanded
version also echoes in my memory--"you'll get yourself run over" or
"You'll get yourself killed," which adds a modicum of responsibility to
the act, implying you are complicit in your own demise. ("You're going
to get yourself fired if you're not careful." or "You'll get fired if
you're not careful.")
But why object to a perfectly functional and perfectly normal use of
language? Are the other errors you write about like this one?
Craig
There is a place for the get + passive but I consider got run over
> to be nonstandard. We were asked for opinions: I gave mine. If you
> believe that 'got run over' is standard English, ATEG is a wide tent.
>
> I cannot attend ATEG; it conflicts with another conference at which I
> have agreed to make a presentation.
>
> The dangers of a corpus for me is the source of information. For example,
> in the mid-50s and the '60s, the Orlando Sentinel was a font of good
> writing and standard English--and the proofreaders were charged with
> ensuring that standard English grammar, usage, and punctuation were
> observed. Except in the Sports Edition, where colloquial English was
> expected, a proofreader could expect a reprimand (or a pink slip) for
> signing off on a page with an error. In the late '80s I was teaching
> Standard English writing in a Los Angeles business school to a primarily
> native-born hispanohablante population--focussing on the errors that they
> made and would need to correct before they could get a position in a
> business. At a Mensa social I was discussing some of the errors that I
> encountered when the self-identified Editor of the LA Times strongly
> suggested that I should be using the LA Times in my classroom as a primary
> source. I agreed just as strongly and stated that, no matter what type of
> error I was addressing, I could always count in the LA Times to have an
> example on the Front page or the Editorial page.
>
> I shall order the article by Van der Auwera from my university library.
>
> We must understand competence in order to understand how to improve
> performance--above all, with ESOL. Competence (naïve or formally
> acquired)
> precedes performance but, of course, does not guarantee it. My favorite
> example comes from a mathematics class my first year of teaching in which
> every student could tell me how to divide a fraction but only one could do
> so.
>
> Scott Catledge
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar
> [mailto:[log in to unmask]] On Behalf Of ATEG automatic digest
> system
> Sent: Sunday, February 22, 2009 12:00 AM
> To: [log in to unmask]
> Subject: ATEG Digest - 20 Feb 2009 to 21 Feb 2009 (#2009-41)
>
> There are 8 messages totalling 801 lines in this issue.
>
> Topics of the day:
>
> 1. he was run over/he got run over ATEG Digest - 19 Feb 2009 to 20 Feb
> 2009
> (#2009-40) (2)
> 2. 2009 ATEG Conference (2)
> 3. more on attributive "aware" (2)
> 4. relative that--a contrary view
> 5. On the importance of the competence-performance distinction for
> language
> teachers
>
> To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web interface
> at:
> http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html
> and select "Join or leave the list"
>
> Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/
>
> ----------------------------------------------------------------------
>
> Date: Sat, 21 Feb 2009 07:20:41 -0500
> From: Scott <[log in to unmask]>
> Subject: Re: he was run over/he got run over ATEG Digest - 19 Feb 2009 to
> 20
> Feb 2009 (#2009-40)
>
> I would consider "He got run over" and "He done been run over" as
> barely literate passives except when used jocularly.
>
> N. Scott Catledge
> Professor Emeritus (ret.)
> history & languages
>
> P.S. I get a few entries of comment and a score of pages of garbage
> on this list; I saw no legible entries on "such as." Could someone
> repeat the question (and pertinent comments)?
>
> **********************************************************
>
> To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web interface
> at:
> http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html
> and select "Join or leave the list"
>
> Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Date: Sat, 21 Feb 2009 08:17:17 -0500
> From: "STAHLKE, HERBERT F" <[log in to unmask]>
> Subject: Re: he was run over/he got run over ATEG Digest - 19 Feb 2009 to
> 20
> Feb 2009 (#2009-40)
>
> "done been" is clearly non-standard and stigmatized. But there is a place
> =
> for the get-passive, and we use it regularly with some verbs: get
> engaged,=
> get married, get divorced, get killed, etc., where it's the change of
> stat=
> e or condition that is important. In many cases it does mark an informal
> r=
> egister.
>
> Herb=20
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar
> [mailto:[log in to unmask]
> OHIO.EDU] On Behalf Of Scott
> Sent: 2009-02-21 07:21
> To: [log in to unmask]
> Subject: Re: he was run over/he got run over ATEG Digest - 19 Feb 2009 to
> 2=
> 0 Feb 2009 (#2009-40)
>
> I would consider "He got run over" and "He done been run over" as
> barely literate passives except when used jocularly.=20
>
> N. Scott Catledge
> Professor Emeritus (ret.)
> history & languages
>
> P.S. I get a few entries of comment and a score of pages of garbage
> on this list; I saw no legible entries on "such as." Could someone
> repeat the question (and pertinent comments)? =20
>
> **********************************************************
>
> To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web interface
> =
> at:
> http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html
> and select "Join or leave the list"
>
> Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/
>
> To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web interface
> at:
> http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html
> and select "Join or leave the list"
>
> Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Date: Sat, 21 Feb 2009 12:10:27 EST
> From: Wanda Van Goor <[log in to unmask]>
> Subject: Re: 2009 ATEG Conference
>
> -------------------------------1235236227
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII"
> Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
>
> Please post a registration form for the 2009 conference at U of Md.
> Thanks!
>
>
> In a message dated 2/17/2009 11:06:40 A.M. Eastern Standard Time,
> [log in to unmask] writes:
>
> Hi All,
>
> I am making the following announcement because, ironically enough, Amy is
> unable to post to the listserv.
>
> The annual ATEG Conference is up and ready for presenter proposals and
> conference registration. The theme for this year (July 9 and 10, at the
> College
> Park campus of the University of Maryland) is YES WE CAN! (TEACH
> GRAMMAR!)
>
> The programs are always very interesting and the participants are
> extraordinarily collegial, so plan to attend if you possibly can.
>
> For more information, visit ATEG.org or, more specifically, go to the
> following link:
>
> _http://ateg.org/conferences/c20.php_
> (http://ateg.org/conferences/c20.php)
>
> Hope to see you there!
>
> John
> To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web
> interface
> at: http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html and select "Join or
> leave
>
> the list"
> Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/
>
> **************Need a job? Find an employment agency near you.
> (http://yellowpages.aol.com/search?query=employment_agencies&ncid=emlcntusye
> lp00000003)
>
> To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web interface
> at:
> http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html
> and select "Join or leave the list"
>
> Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/
>
> -------------------------------1235236227
> Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII"
> Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
>
> <!DOCTYPE HTML PUBLIC "-//W3C//DTD HTML 4.0 Transitional//EN">
> <HTML><HEAD>
> <META http-equiv=3DContent-Type content=3D"text/html; charset=3DUS-ASCII">
> <META content=3D"MSHTML 6.00.6000.16809" name=3DGENERATOR></HEAD>
> <BODY id=3Drole_body style=3D"FONT-SIZE: 14pt; COLOR: #000000;
> FONT-FAMILY:=20=
> Arial"=20
> bottomMargin=3D7 leftMargin=3D7 topMargin=3D7 rightMargin=3D7><FONT
> id=3Drol=
> e_document=20
> face=3DArial color=3D#000000 size=3D4>
> <DIV><FONT size=3D4>Please post a registration form for the 2009
> conference=20=
> at U=20
> of Md. Thanks!</FONT></DIV>
> <DIV> </DIV>
> <DIV>
> <DIV>In a message dated 2/17/2009 11:06:40 A.M. Eastern Standard Time,=20
> [log in to unmask] writes:</DIV>
> <BLOCKQUOTE=20
> style=3D"PADDING-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; BORDER-LEFT: blue 2px
> solid"><=
> FONT=20
> style=3D"BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent" face=3DArial color=3D#000000
> size=
> =3D2>Hi=20
> All,<BR><BR>I am making the following announcement because, ironically
> eno=
> ugh,=20
> Amy is unable to post to the listserv.<BR><BR>The annual ATEG Conference
> i=
> s up=20
> and ready for presenter proposals and conference registration. The
> t=
> heme=20
> for this year (July 9 and 10, at the College Park campus of the
> University=
> of=20
> Maryland) is YES WE CAN! (TEACH GRAMMAR!) The programs are always
> ve=
> ry=20
> interesting and the participants are extraordinarily collegial, so plan
> to=
> =20
> attend if you possibly can.<BR><BR>For more information, visit ATEG.org
> or=
> ,=20
> more specifically, go to the following link:<BR><BR><A=20
> title=3Dhttp://ateg.org/conferences/c20.php=20
>
> href=3D"http://ateg.org/conferences/c20.php">http://ateg.org/conferences/c=
> 20.php</A><BR><BR>Hope=20
> to see you there!<BR><BR>John<BR>To join or leave this LISTSERV list,
> plea=
> se=20
> visit the list's web interface at:=20
> http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html and select "Join or leave
> th=
> e=20
> list"=20
> <P>Visit ATEG's web site at=20
> http://ateg.org/</P></FONT></BLOCKQUOTE></DIV></FONT><br/><font
> style=3D"col=
> or:black;font:normal 10pt arial,san-serif;"> <hr
> style=3D"margin-top:10px"/>=
> Need a job? <a
> href=3D"http://yellowpages.aol.com/search?query=3Demployment_=
> agencies&ncid=3Demlcntusyelp00000003">Find an employment agency near
> you</a>=
> .</font></DIV></BODY></HTML>
> To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web interface
> at:
> http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html
> and select "Join or leave the list"
> <p>
> Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/
>
> -------------------------------1235236227--
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Date: Sat, 21 Feb 2009 12:29:52 -0500
> From: "R. Michael Medley (GLS)" <[log in to unmask]>
> Subject: more on attributive "aware"
>
> I'd like to thank those of you who took the time to respond to my query
> about the use of "aware" as an attributive adjective.
>
> I have never in my career had a student who blew up in class and started
> screaming at me until just the other day, and it was precipitated by a
> discussion of whether "aware" was used attributively or predicatively.
> Since I usually try to turn uncomfortable incidents like this into
> educational opportunities, I did a little further research on "aware,"
> including taking an informal poll from my colleagues and you. The
> colleagues in my department at EMU voted 4-0 for answer B (meaning that
> they consider phrases like "an aware person" as grammatically okay but
> stylistically awkward). From both on- and off-list responses from ATEG
> participants, I got a similar consensus.
>
> What I was trying to do in posing this question was to find some
> correlation between your intuitions and corpus data on the use of "aware"
> to which we all have ready access. I am learning to use Mark Davies'
> Corpus of Contemporary American English www.americancorpus.org (though I
> still know only rudimentary search codes). Here are the results from
> Davies' 385 million word corpus:
>
> Total occurrences of "aware" in the corpus: 24,619
> Odds of "aware" being followed by "of" = 66/100
> Odds of "aware" being preceded by a linking verb = 47/100
> Odds of "aware" being followed by a noun = >1/100 (0.06%)
>
> Upon closer examination of the data, you also begin to find that not all
> instances of "aware + N" mean "aware" is being used attributively because
> the search also turns up items like this: "a teacher might be very
> surprised to know how aware students are of what's going on...." --which
> is really an example of "aware + of." And there are also quirks in the
> database such as a spate of news stories about an abortion clinic called
> "Aware Woman Center for Choice."
>
> I believe that these statistics correlate with the judgments that my
> respondents gave. Because the usage is very rare, we tend to judge it as
> stylistically awkward.
>
> I was intrigued, however, by Brian O'Sullivan's comment about the role of
> audience and purpose" in making a usage like "aware + N" an appropriate
> choice. I went back to see how the attributive use of "aware" was
> distributed across the main sections of the corpus--spoken language,
> fiction, magazines, newspapers, and academic writing. Academic writing
> showed the highest usage of this structure compared with the others, and
> the usage was found in all the other sections.
>
> Although the attributive usage of "aware" is very rare, I think that Brian
> is essentially correct in suggesting that context can make this usage feel
> right. Here's a quotation from the longer passage that Brian mentioned as
> sounding "New Age." It's from a science fiction novel by Piers Anthony
> entitled The Shame of Man (I've highlighted the key strings in caps).
> This passage seems to be referring to a supposed stage in the evolution of
> the human mind.
>
> "There was a need to share what went beyond vocabulary, however
> sophisticated the language might be. This may have been where the arts
> came in. The sophisticated symbolism of language was only one ability of
> the new mind; it could appreciate the symbolism of a sculpture, or a
> drawing, or a dance, or music. Music, perhaps more than any other art,
> appealed directly to THE AWARE MIND, and stirred special emotions in it.
> When ONE AWARE PERSON sang, and others listened, all of them knew that the
> others were experiencing similar awareness. They were sharing the feelings
> of their own kind. And so self-consciousness may have led to complex
> language and all of the arts, including perhaps the art of love. Those of
> the new mind were not only able to communicate in ways others literally
> could not dream of, they were able to share feelings others lacked."
>
> I think if I had been reading this passage before doing this
> investigation, I would not have blinked at this usage. What I have
> discovered gives me some pause about making generalizations that
> characterize certain usages as "bad" until I have seen the context. I can
> still tell students, it is not very likely for the string "aware + N" to
> occur in English so be very careful that it is contextually appropriate if
> you decide to use it.
>
> R. Michael Medley, Ph.D.
> Eastern Mennonite University, Harrisonburg, VA 22802
> [log in to unmask] (540) 432-4051
>
> To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web interface
> at:
> http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html
> and select "Join or leave the list"
>
> Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Date: Sat, 21 Feb 2009 14:28:25 -0500
> From: "STAHLKE, HERBERT F" <[log in to unmask]>
> Subject: Re: more on attributive "aware"
>
> Thank you, Michael. This is the sort of post that raises ATEG above the
> le=
> vel of a lot of lists I've been on. Thoughtful, informative, carefully
> res=
> earched.
>
> Herb
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar
> [mailto:[log in to unmask]
> OHIO.EDU] On Behalf Of R. Michael Medley (GLS)
> Sent: 2009-02-21 12:30
> To: [log in to unmask]
> Subject: more on attributive "aware"
>
> I'd like to thank those of you who took the time to respond to my query
> about the use of "aware" as an attributive adjective.
>
> I have never in my career had a student who blew up in class and started
> screaming at me until just the other day, and it was precipitated by a
> discussion of whether "aware" was used attributively or predicatively.=20
> Since I usually try to turn uncomfortable incidents like this into
> educational opportunities, I did a little further research on "aware,"
> including taking an informal poll from my colleagues and you. The
> colleagues in my department at EMU voted 4-0 for answer B (meaning that
> they consider phrases like "an aware person" as grammatically okay but
> stylistically awkward). From both on- and off-list responses from ATEG
> participants, I got a similar consensus.
>
> What I was trying to do in posing this question was to find some
> correlation between your intuitions and corpus data on the use of "aware"
> to which we all have ready access. I am learning to use Mark Davies'
> Corpus of Contemporary American English www.americancorpus.org (though I
> still know only rudimentary search codes). Here are the results from
> Davies' 385 million word corpus:
>
> Total occurrences of "aware" in the corpus: 24,619
> Odds of "aware" being followed by "of" =3D 66/100
> Odds of "aware" being preceded by a linking verb =3D 47/100
> Odds of "aware" being followed by a noun =3D >1/100 (0.06%)
>
> Upon closer examination of the data, you also begin to find that not all
> instances of "aware + N" mean "aware" is being used attributively because
> the search also turns up items like this: "a teacher might be very
> surprised to know how aware students are of what's going on...." --which
> is really an example of "aware + of." And there are also quirks in the
> database such as a spate of news stories about an abortion clinic called
> "Aware Woman Center for Choice."
>
> I believe that these statistics correlate with the judgments that my
> respondents gave. Because the usage is very rare, we tend to judge it as
> stylistically awkward.
>
> I was intrigued, however, by Brian O'Sullivan's comment about the role of
> audience and purpose" in making a usage like "aware + N" an appropriate
> choice. I went back to see how the attributive use of "aware" was
> distributed across the main sections of the corpus--spoken language,
> fiction, magazines, newspapers, and academic writing. Academic writing
> showed the highest usage of this structure compared with the others, and
> the usage was found in all the other sections.
>
> Although the attributive usage of "aware" is very rare, I think that Brian
> is essentially correct in suggesting that context can make this usage feel
> right. Here's a quotation from the longer passage that Brian mentioned as
> sounding "New Age." It's from a science fiction novel by Piers Anthony
> entitled The Shame of Man (I've highlighted the key strings in caps).=20
> This passage seems to be referring to a supposed stage in the evolution of
> the human mind.
>
> "There was a need to share what went beyond vocabulary, however
> sophisticated the language might be. This may have been where the arts
> came in. The sophisticated symbolism of language was only one ability of
> the new mind; it could appreciate the symbolism of a sculpture, or a
> drawing, or a dance, or music. Music, perhaps more than any other art,
> appealed directly to THE AWARE MIND, and stirred special emotions in it.
> When ONE AWARE PERSON sang, and others listened, all of them knew that the
> others were experiencing similar awareness. They were sharing the feelings
> of their own kind. And so self-consciousness may have led to complex
> language and all of the arts, including perhaps the art of love. Those of
> the new mind were not only able to communicate in ways others literally
> could not dream of, they were able to share feelings others lacked."
>
> I think if I had been reading this passage before doing this
> investigation, I would not have blinked at this usage. What I have
> discovered gives me some pause about making generalizations that
> characterize certain usages as "bad" until I have seen the context. I can
> still tell students, it is not very likely for the string "aware + N" to
> occur in English so be very careful that it is contextually appropriate if
> you decide to use it.
>
> R. Michael Medley, Ph.D.
> Eastern Mennonite University, Harrisonburg, VA 22802
> [log in to unmask] (540) 432-4051
>
> To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web interface
> =
> at:
> http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html
> and select "Join or leave the list"
>
> Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/
>
> To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web interface
> at:
> http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html
> and select "Join or leave the list"
>
> Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Date: Sat, 21 Feb 2009 14:33:34 -0500
> From: "STAHLKE, HERBERT F" <[log in to unmask]>
> Subject: relative that--a contrary view
>
> --_000_0DDF38BA66ECD847B39F1FD4C801D543128B91C2DAEMAILBACKEND0_
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> Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
>
> For those of you who won't be driven to despair by another posting on
> relat=
> ive "that" and maybe even have some interest in it, I recommend
>
> Van der Auwera, Johan. 1985. Relative that-a centennial dispute.
> Journal=
> of Linguistics 21:149-179.
>
> It's a thorough and scholarly review of the literature on the subject
> going=
> back to 1885. The author takes the position that relative-that is not
> com=
> pletely pronominal but has several pronominal traits. He critiques
> argumen=
> ts, including some of mine supporting the claim that relative-that is
> simpl=
> y a conjunction. I don't agree with all of his counterarguments, but he
> ma=
> kes an interesting case that those of you who regard relative-that as a
> pro=
> noun will find interesting.
>
> Herb
>
> To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web interface
> at:
> http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html
> and select "Join or leave the list"
>
> Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/
>
> --_000_0DDF38BA66ECD847B39F1FD4C801D543128B91C2DAEMAILBACKEND0_
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> <p class=3DMsoNormal>For those of you who won’t be driven to despair
> =
> by
> another posting on relative “that” and maybe even have some
> int=
> erest
> in it, I recommend <o:p></o:p></p>
>
> <p class=3DMsoNormal><o:p> </o:p></p>
>
> <p class=3DMsoNormal>Van der Auwera, Johan. 1985. Relative
> that=
> —a centennial
> dispute. Journal of Linguistics 21:149-179.<o:p></o:p></p>
>
> <p class=3DMsoNormal><o:p> </o:p></p>
>
> <p class=3DMsoNormal>It’s a thorough and scholarly review of the
> lite=
> rature
> on the subject going back to 1885. The author takes the position
> that
> relative-that is not completely pronominal but has several pronominal
> trait=
> s.
> He critiques arguments, including some of mine supporting the claim that
> relative-that is simply a conjunction. I don’t agree with all
> o=
> f his
> counterarguments, but he makes an interesting case that those of you who
> re=
> gard
> relative-that as a pronoun will find interesting.<o:p></o:p></p>
>
> <p class=3DMsoNormal><o:p> </o:p></p>
>
> <p class=3DMsoNormal>Herb<o:p></o:p></p>
>
> </div>
>
> </body>
>
> </html>
> To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web interface
> at:
> http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html
> and select "Join or leave the list"
> <p>
> Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/
>
> --_000_0DDF38BA66ECD847B39F1FD4C801D543128B91C2DAEMAILBACKEND0_--
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Date: Sat, 21 Feb 2009 14:55:15 -0500
> From: John Crow <[log in to unmask]>
> Subject: Re: 2009 ATEG Conference
>
> --0003255762cae71f770463732553
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1
> Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
>
> The registration form is available at the ATEG.org website. The specific
> link is
>
> http://ateg.org/conferences/c20/registration.pdf
>
> John
>
> On Sat, Feb 21, 2009 at 12:10 PM, Wanda Van Goor <[log in to unmask]>
> wrote:
>
>> Please post a registration form for the 2009 conference at U of Md.
>> Thanks!
>>
>> In a message dated 2/17/2009 11:06:40 A.M. Eastern Standard Time,
>> [log in to unmask] writes:
>>
>> Hi All,
>>
>> I am making the following announcement because, ironically enough, Amy
>> is
>> unable to post to the listserv.
>>
>> The annual ATEG Conference is up and ready for presenter proposals and
>> conference registration. The theme for this year (July 9 and 10, at the
>> College Park campus of the University of Maryland) is YES WE CAN! (TEACH
>> GRAMMAR!) The programs are always very interesting and the participants
> are
>> extraordinarily collegial, so plan to attend if you possibly can.
>>
>> For more information, visit ATEG.org or, more specifically, go to the
>> following link:
>>
>> http://ateg.org/conferences/c20.php
>>
>> Hope to see you there!
>>
>> John
>> To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web
>> interface
>> at: http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html and select "Join or
>> leave the list"
>>
>> Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/
>>
>>
>> ------------------------------
>> Need a job? Find an employment agency near
> you<http://yellowpages.aol.com/search?query=employment_agencies&ncid=emlcntu
> syelp00000003>
>> .
>> To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web
>> interface
>> at: http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html and select "Join or
>> leave the list"
>>
>> Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/
>>
>
> To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web interface
> at:
> http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html
> and select "Join or leave the list"
>
> Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/
>
> --0003255762cae71f770463732553
> Content-Type: text/html; charset=ISO-8859-1
> Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
>
> The registration form is available at the ATEG.org website. The
> speci=
> fic link is<br><br><a
> href=3D"http://ateg.org/conferences/c20/registration.=
> pdf">http://ateg.org/conferences/c20/registration.pdf</a><br><br>John<br><b=
> r><div class=3D"gmail_quote">
> On Sat, Feb 21, 2009 at 12:10 PM, Wanda Van Goor <span dir=3D"ltr"><<a
> h=
> ref=3D"mailto:[log in to unmask]">[log in to unmask]</a>></span>
> wrote:<br=
>><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"border-left: 1px solid
>> rgb(204,=
> 204, 204); margin: 0pt 0pt 0pt 0.8ex; padding-left: 1ex;">
>
>
>
>
> <div style=3D"font-size: 14pt; color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-family:
> Arial;"><f=
> ont size=3D"4" color=3D"#000000" face=3D"Arial">
> <div><font size=3D"4">Please post a registration form for the 2009
> conferen=
> ce at U=20
> of Md. Thanks!</font></div><div class=3D"Ih2E3d">
> <div> </div>
> <div>
> <div>In a message dated 2/17/2009 11:06:40 A.M. Eastern Standard Time,=20
> <a href=3D"mailto:[log in to unmask]"
> target=3D"_blank">[log in to unmask]<=
> /a> writes:</div>
> <blockquote style=3D"border-left: 2px solid blue; padding-left: 5px;
> margin=
> -left: 5px;"><font style=3D"background-color: transparent;" size=3D"2"
> colo=
> r=3D"#000000" face=3D"Arial">Hi=20
> All,<br><br>I am making the following announcement because, ironically
> en=
> ough,=20
> Amy is unable to post to the listserv.<br><br>The annual ATEG Conference
> =
> is up=20
> and ready for presenter proposals and conference registration. The
> =
> theme=20
> for this year (July 9 and 10, at the College Park campus of the
> Universit=
> y of=20
> Maryland) is YES WE CAN! (TEACH GRAMMAR!) The programs are always
> v=
> ery=20
> interesting and the participants are extraordinarily collegial, so plan
> t=
> o=20
> attend if you possibly can.<br><br>For more information, visit ATEG.org
> o=
> r,=20
> more specifically, go to the following link:<br><br><a
> title=3D"http://at=
> eg.org/conferences/c20.php" href=3D"http://ateg.org/conferences/c20.php"
> ta=
> rget=3D"_blank">http://ateg.org/conferences/c20.php</a><br><br>Hope=20
> to see you there!<br><br>John<br>To join or leave this LISTSERV list,
> ple=
> ase=20
> visit the list's web interface at:=20
> <a href=3D"http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html"
> target=3D"_blan=
> k">http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html</a> and select "Join
> =
> or leave the=20
> list"=20
> <p>Visit ATEG's web site at=20
> <a href=3D"http://ateg.org/"
> target=3D"_blank">http://ateg.org/</a></p></fo=
> nt></blockquote></div></div></font><br><font style=3D"color: black;
> font-fa=
> mily: arial,san-serif; font-style: normal; font-variant: normal;
> font-weigh=
> t: normal; font-size: 10pt; line-height: normal; font-size-adjust: none;
> fo=
> nt-stretch: normal;"> <hr style=3D"margin-top: 10px;">
> Need a job? <a
> href=3D"http://yellowpages.aol.com/search?query=3Demployment=
> _agencies&ncid=3Demlcntusyelp00000003" target=3D"_blank">Find an
> employ=
> ment agency near you</a>.</font></div><div><div></div><div
> class=3D"Wj3C7c"=
>>
> To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web
> interf=
> ace at:
> <a href=3D"http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html"
> target=3D"_b=
> lank">http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html</a>
> and select "Join or leave the list"
> <p>
> Visit ATEG's web site at <a href=3D"http://ateg.org/"
> target=3D"_blank"=
>>http://ateg.org/</a>
> </p></div></div></blockquote></div><br>
> To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web interface
> at:
> http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html
> and select "Join or leave the list"
> <p>
> Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/
>
> --0003255762cae71f770463732553--
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Date: Sat, 21 Feb 2009 22:02:39 -0600
> From: Robert Yates <[log in to unmask]>
> Subject: On the importance of the competence-performance distinction for
> language teachers
>
> In the discussion on the theory of language, Bill Spruill (on 2/11)
> wrote:
>
> =E2=80=9CIt doesn't do the wider public any good, though, *especially* si=
> nce a
> majority of the differences between the paradigms has no real
> implication for what we need to do in classrooms.=E2=80=9D
>
> I want to demonstrate that an important difference between views on
> language makes a very real difference in the disposition we as teachers
> need to have in understanding what our students do and how we respond to
> what they do. =20
>
> The difference I consider here is whether we need a
> competence-performance distinction in our understanding of language or
> whether performance is the only way to consider language. In other
> words, whether there is a difference between our knowledge about what is
> possible in a language (competence) and how that knowledge is used
> (performance) or the distinction doesn=E2=80=99t exist at all. In an ear=
> lier
> post Craig noted:=20
>
> =E2=80=9CFor a formal or structural grammar, you need to theorize ways in=
> which
> knowledge of the underlying forms can be put to work. In a functional
> model, those connections are already there.=E2=80=9D
>
> I claim a teacher must theorize about how knowledge of underlying forms
> are put to work by our students. Consider sentence (1) that one of my
> non-native speakers (a graduate students whose first language is
> Chinese) wrote: =20
>
> 1) They are not agree with the Input Hypothesis.=20
>
> (1) is obviously ungrammatical: ARE should be DO. I=E2=80=99m interested=
> in
> trying to understand why a non-native speaker would write (1) because,
> if I can figure out why, my correction may prevent the error in future
> writing. =20
>
> I can only speculate on how someone who believes language can be
> understood as performance would respond to this sentence. (I hope I
> will be corrected on the following if it is not correct.)
>
> From a performance perspective, when to use IS/ARE and DO in making
> sentences negative can appear to be confusing. Consider 2 and 3.
>
> 2) They do not agree with X.
> 3) They are not agreeing with X.
>
> So, perhaps if we only know performance, the writer of (1) is confused
> about DO or ARE and =E2=80=9Cagree=E2=80=9D just lacks -ing. And, of cou=
> rse, such
> learners will see sentences like (4).
>
> 4) They are not in agreement with X.
>
> So, from a performance perspective, the number of different forms a
> learner might encounter with =E2=80=9Cagree=E2=80=9D is so variable, the =
> learner has no
> clear indication whether ARE or DO is appropriate. Moreover, we as
> teachers cannot be sure whether the student should have written
> =E2=80=9Cagreeing=E2=80=9D or =E2=80=9Cin agreement.=E2=80=9D=20
>
> On the other hand, if we as teachers understand language to have a
> competence-performance distinction, another explanation for (1) is
> possible. If the learner=E2=80=99s underlying knowledge about AGREE is t=
> hat it
> is an adjective and not a verb, then what makes this sentence
> ungrammatical is not with ARE (or missing morphology on =E2=80=9Cagree=E2=
> =80=9D) but
> with what word category the learner has assigned AGREE to. So, because
> AGREE for this student is an adjective, ARE is the only form possible.
> In fact, that is exactly what the student told me. =20
>
> Craig, in the passage I cited above, is absolutely correct. As a
> teacher, I had to theorize on how this writer=E2=80=99s underlying compet=
> ence
> (agree is an adjective) lead to the ungrammatical sentence.. Such
> theorizing, I believe, is a disposition all teachers need to have to
> respond to their students=E2=80=99 writing.
>
> I hope this example of a real sentence a real student wrote shows that a
> whole lot is at stake in how we understand what it means to know
> language.
>
> Bob Yates, University of Central Missouri
>
> (By the way, if we as teachers had done the obvious surface correction
> of sentence (1)=E2=80=93 cross-out the ARE and insert DO, we really haven=
> =E2=80=99t
> provided much help to the student. The student has to figure out why the
> ARE was crossed out and DO was inserted. That would require the student
> to realize that only verbs require do-support when made negative and BE
> is used for adjectives. A student who could arrive at such a conclusby ju=
> st crossing out ARE and replacing it with DO probably wouldn=E2=80=99t
> write (1) in the first place.)
>
> To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web interface
> at:
> http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html
> and select "Join or leave the list"
>
> Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/
>
> ------------------------------
>
> End of ATEG Digest - 20 Feb 2009 to 21 Feb 2009 (#2009-41)
> **********************************************************
>
> To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web interface
> at:
> http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html
> and select "Join or leave the list"
>
> Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/
>
To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web interface at:
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