So remind me of how I can pay my dues so I can get the journal again
--since I didn't make it to the conference.
Thanks.
Edith Wollin
-----Original Message-----
From: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar
[mailto:[log in to unmask]] On Behalf Of Hadley, Tim
Sent: Tuesday, July 18, 2006 12:20 PM
To: [log in to unmask]
Subject: Re: ATEG conference, Scope and Sequence project
The full text of Martha's speech will be published in the fall issue of
the ATEG Journal, and possibly also on the ATEG website.
Tim
Tim Hadley
Research Assistant, The Graduate School
Ph.D. candidate, Technical Communication and Rhetoric Texas Tech
University Editor, ATEG Journal
________________________________
From: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar on behalf of
[log in to unmask]
Sent: Tue 7/18/2006 1:00 PM
To: [log in to unmask]
Subject: Re: ATEG conference, Scope and Sequence project
Would it be possible to see the text of Martha's speech?
Thanks,
Nancy Burkhalter, Ph.D.
----- Original Message -----
From: Paul E. Doniger <mailto:[log in to unmask]>
To: [log in to unmask]
Sent: 7/18/2006 10:54:14 AM
Subject: Re: ATEG conference, Scope and Sequence project
If anyone thinks we are "drifting back to the NCTE perspective
on grammar," perhaps it would have been a good idea to attend the
recentl ATEG Conference and listen to Martha Kolln's eloquent keynote
speech. Such an experience would have disabused you of this very wrong
notion. We agree to disagree about terminology and perhaps methodology,
but we very much are making strong efforts to reinvigorate grammar
instruction in both the public schools and in teacher education.
Paul E. Doniger
----- Original Message ----
From: Eduard C. Hanganu <[log in to unmask]>
To: [log in to unmask]
Sent: Tuesday, July 18, 2006 10:04:30 AM
Subject: Re: ATEG conference, Scope and Sequence project
Ed,
I have to agree with you. It seems that this group has lost its
focus
and is drifting back to the NCTE perspective on grammar. There
is an
amazing confusion concerning the metalanguage of grammar, or
what you
call a " specific set of defined terms." Grammar perspectives
are all
mixed-up into a hodge-podge of traditional, structural,
generative,
cognitive and anti-grammatical dogmas. A forum participant even
wrote
in a post that he did not know what grammar was.
What is worse, I believe, is that there is no discussion
openness in
the forum. People sent messages to me stating that they were
afraid
to post on the forum because they were afraid of the violent
reaction
they would get from a few individuals who believe that they have
a
monopoly on the exchange of ideas.
Quite often discussions drift into linguistic diatribes which I
don't
believe benefit in any way those who struggle to put together a
! coherent approach to teaching grammar in public school. I
wonder
sometimes what are the "experts" in Linguistics doing on this
forum
which is dedicated to the "good old grammar." If they want to
engage
in deep linguistic discussions, why don't they post on the
Linguist
List, or some other specilized linguistic forums? I am a member
of
the Linguist List, and I go there for linguistics. On the other
hand,
I come here for practical suggestions teachers and instructors
need
when they teach English Composition.
I recognize that some messages I posted on the forum have not
been
very friendly, but the vicious reaction to them and the fact
that
from that moment I became a persona non grata is evidence to me
that
the forum has lost its fundamental scientific characteristic -
the
free circulation of ideas, and open participation and
coooperation
among its members.
If 20 years of existence and activity of this forum has ha! d so
little
effect on the grammar education of teachers and instru ctors,
what is
that we should expect from the future when there appears to be
less
and less consensus about the major objectives and approaches to
the
goal of changes the current anti-grammarian perspective in the
NCTE
and in the American education in general?
Eduard
On Mon, 17 Jul 2006, Edward Vavra wrote...
> I basically lost interest in this group (even though I'm
primarily the one who started it), at the first Seattle
conference *
when there was the first serious discussion of scope and
sequence. At
that conference I suggested that ATEG establish three, perhaps
four
distinct groups, each of which could develop a named scope and
sequence, based on a specific set of defined terms. It does not
make
any sense to have one group that considers infinitives to be
clauses
and another that considers them to be phrases, both working
within
the same scope and seque! nce, and both claiming that they are
teaching "grammar." Most members of this list realize that there
are
fundamental differences among traditional, structural,
transformational, etc. grammars. Put them all in one "grammar"
pot
and the public has an indigestible mess--the current state of
affairs.
> Let me note here that I would have been (and to a certain
extent still am) open to changes in KISS terminology, but none
of the
members of ATEG has shown any specific interest in working with
me.
Indeed, I started the newsletter and the first conferences with
the
idea of getting suggestions and improvements for KISS.
> As long as this group refuses to make such distinctions, it
will
fail. In effect, it is speaking and writing nonsense (as I
understand
Hobbes to call it), since different members use the same terms
to
refer to different constructions, and different terms to refer!
to the
same constructions. Clear definitions are first principles of
philosophy and of the natural sciences. It amazes me that this
group
cannot understand that.
>Ed
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