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September 2000

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Subject:
From:
Patricia Reeve-De Becker <[log in to unmask]>
Reply To:
Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar <[log in to unmask]>
Date:
Wed, 20 Sep 2000 18:24:57 +0200
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<The little child is lonely; he would be happier if he had someone that
he
can play with.>

This is really getting exciting!

First of all I'd probably avoid the issue and use the infinitive
structure

He'd be happier if he had s.o. to play with

2nd s.o that is perfect for me

a it avoids even considering WHO/WHOM
b I've always used it in non-defining relative clauses (idiolect?) and
saved who for defining ( this could be another issue!)

3rd I would never ever use can. It also does not go down well with
anybody I have asked -  I'll keep asking - this side of the ocean.
The whole thing is an illusion. It's all based on condition.

He would be happier if he had s.o.
He would be happier if he could play
He would be happier if he could play with that  s.o.


Patsi
PS (The longest I've ever written)
Would any one like to see the flow of another forum and give comments.
We're all up tight here, too.
If not stop reading here because it's just as 'mind boggling' as the
above thread.

If you don't know, I am English but have been teaching in Germany for
nearly 30 years. Of course, I go 'home' on holidays and have continual
contact with my mother tongue but basically I've been out of the country
for just as long as I've been teaching. However, it didn't stop me
dropping a line of 'help'
to a forum recently.
Now we can't see the 'would' for the trees! Or for the marking purposes.
This is long but
hopefully entertaining:

Extracts from a friendly forum:

Question:
: What is the present "status" of "would" in if-clauses in both AE and
BE? Is there a difference between what is taught at school and common
usage? Is it true that at least in the US it has become acceptable and
that German teachers are holier than the pope in this respect?-Jochen

My suggestion:
If you'd ( be so kind as to ) give us an example, we could help you,
Jochen. This is the polite Englishwoman in me speaking. However,
speaking as a teacher of English in Lower, middle + weak upper classes I
would prefer a clearly constructed if Clause . If you gave us an
example, we could and would help you. Of course, if you were to use the
'if clauses' I had to when I was at school, we would probably start
complicating matters. P.S. ...
Greetings  P.A.RDB


Example: If I would buy this house/car/etc. I would be very
happy/content/etc. (There is strong interference from German: Wenn ich
kaufen *würde*)



(My answer perhaps too short+ too old fashioned!)

Nope! I wouldn't say or write that. My husband does it all the time! But
I'm not complaining. There's definitely interference(!) there.

If I bought...
If I were to buy...(subjunctive infinitive)
are your best bets here

should (meaning happen to/chance to) can occur in if clauses
However, it doesn't fit your example.
If I should make this mistake again, I would be very unhappy.
or
Should I make this mistake... ( Sollte ich..)
( should for all persons )

Well, it's late and if I go on, I won't be able to get up in the
morning.
Or high faluting:
If I were to continue, I wouldn't be able to arise from my bed in the
morning.
Should you have any more questions, I would be happy to answer them at a
later date.
P.RDB

(Then the expert appeared on the scene:)


We have to establish a clear distinction between British and American
English.

In BRITISH ENGLISH 'will' and 'would' do not normally occur in
if-clauses. There are few
exceptions to this rule:
1. 'When the if-clause refers to a result of the action of the main
clause, 'will' can be used' (Michael Swan). Example: If it will make you
happier, I'll stop smoking.
2. The modal auxiliaries 'will' and 'would' can also be used together
with 'if', as in 'if you will come this way, the headmaster will see you
now' or 'if you will eat such junk food, no wonder you are always
complaining about ...' Note carefully that we are here dealing with
modals.
3. In both British and American English 'will' can be used in
if-clauses, especially if there is explicit reference to a particular
date or period in the future, or if the if-clause lays emphasis on  the
assumed predictability of a future situation rather than an assumed
actual situation (cf. Quirk et al. 1985: 1008-1009). Examples:
'And if we will need to undertake some draconian belt-tightening in the
2020s and 2030s, that too is the fault of the rest of the government.'
'If you won't arrive before six, I can't meet you'
'If the water will rise above this level, then we must warn everybody in
the neighbourhood'

In spoken British and American English, it is quite common to put an
extra 'have' in if-clauses referring to the past; this should not be
confused with the use of the perfect conditional: 'If I'd have paid the
bill, ...'

With AMERICAN ENGLISH it is a different matter. Here the use of the
conditional (would) in if-clauses is quite common. Here are a few
examples from both spoken and written sources:
'We could do away with the lawlessness involved in the present situation
(...) if we would allow potential immigrants to enter legally' (academic
book)
'Moreover, suicide would be laudatory if the person's death would
benefit the group and the individual' (academic journal)
'If we would have had 100,000 firefighters, there's no way that we would
have been able to stop the ...' (TV interview)

This is by no means a new development, as shown by the following example
sentence from a text published around 1900:

'Thus, for instance, anyone would derive less pleasure in proportion
from ten pieces of wallpaper than from twelve, if the latter would, and
the former would not, cover the whole of the walls of his room.'

This means that students who use American English should not be
penalised for employing 'would' in if-clauses.

End of extract

This set my head buzzing. I like to keep it straight and simple for
students of English as a foreign language.
Confronted with the ' will' set above I can explain them all except the
" If the water will rise " - which I would correct to 'should rise' . On
the grounds that water has no ' will'.

I'm not such a 'gammarian' as to be able to explain why I don't feel the
use of would twice is acceptable in modern English- Y2K! Although 'I'd
be happy if it would work' sounds OK. Why? In most cases I would use
'were to', (which is also probably old fashioned!) or ' were able to'.
Or Do you think this would change a fine meaning?


Perhaps I'm wrong but the 'firefighter' sentence jarrs. Although I
remember hearing sentences
( which, Thank goodness, I have never had occasion to discuss in class)
like:

Had I have been there, I would have...
( is this what the gentleman means by 'spoken English putting in an
extra have' ? although he speaks of a conditional perfect : would have
paid.)

or an answer like:
Would I had.
( which I explain as a subjunctive meaning: I wish I had.)

As you see I am full of questions and getting 'confusider' all the time
:-)

I hope you can help us as Jochen has written again;
extract:
What does this (should this in your opinion) mean for corrections? Do
you mark it at all e.g. with a wavy line? Do you ignore it? Do you write
the "correct" simple past form above it? Do you expect some sort of
consistency in the student's use of tenses? What do you do if you get a
hotchpotch of wild guesses and obvious mistakes in the use of tenses in
general and unacceptable (?) things like "If I would be rich ..."? What
do you do with all those If-clause exercises in our text-books?
Distinguish between BE and AE?

Please excuse the length of this mail but we have 'serious' problems!

P.A. Reeve-De Becker

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