Johanna,

Mea culpa! I should not have said, "Error" in my comments. For what it's
worth, I never say error to my kids when I note their informal speech. I do
tell my students to correct informalities in their writing, however, unless
they're writing vernacular.

It is difficult to find the right words when working with writers. They
often ask if what they have done is "correct" or "good English," and I just
as often find it necessary to 'correct' that habit of self-deprecation; but
it is not easy to do.

Paul E. Doniger

----- Original Message -----
From: Johanna Rubba <[log in to unmask]>
To: <[log in to unmask]>
Sent: Wednesday, August 22, 2001 8:11 PM
Subject: Re: him and me


> I wouldn't call using 'him and me' in subject position an error. If a
> lot of people are doing it, that means it is becoming a part of the
> language. If it is old, then it is all the more established.
>
> English has been revising its case system for hundreds of years and this
> is no doubt part of it.
>
> Instead of calling this an error, I'd say it is very informal English. I
>  certainly hear very educated people do things like this in informal
> speech, and it sounds quite natural. Kids should know that they need to
> use 'he and I' in more formal situations and in writing. But calling
> subjective 'him and me' an error gives kids the impression that they
> have learned 'bad English'; that they are not competent at English. This
> isn't true. They may need to add a formal register to their repertoire
> of types of English, but they are quite competent at whatever language
> they have learned outside of school.
>
> Among the numerous reasons children don't like grammar instruction is
> the constant message that their natural English is wrong, mistaken. How
> can a child interpret this, except to understand that they must be
> stupid, they must have missed learning 'correct English' somehow? And
> how can it give them confidence that they can learn the correct version?
> Instead of using grammar instruction to undermine children's security
> about their use of language, we should use it to make them aware of the
> great amount of grammar they learned on their own, and to support the
> idea that they can learn more styles of English so as to function
> successfully in a wide range of situations.
>
> Another reason changing this mindset is so important is that it will
> help remedy language-based prejudice. If children understand that
> language varies naturally across situations and social groups, they are
> less likely to look down on others because they speak a nonstandard
> variety of English.
>
> I choose to harp on this point because of a regrettable incident I
> witnessed recently. A good friend of mine has a 6-year-old daughter who
> just finished kindergarten. My friend has taught the girl to use 'whom'
> correctly. The girl notices that other children don't do this; her
> mother's explanation for this is that 'some kids don't learn English
> very well'. This patent falsehood has the potential to set up this
> little girl to think that she is smarter than other children and that
> other children somehow have deficient backgrounds. Not a message I'd
> want my kid to internalize,  especially before she has even entered
> first grade.
>
> ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
> Johanna Rubba   Associate Professor, Linguistics
> English Department, California Polytechnic State University
> One Grand Avenue  . San Luis Obispo, CA 93407
> Tel. (805)-756-2184  .  Fax: (805)-756-6374 . Dept. Phone.  756-2596
> . E-mail: [log in to unmask] .  Home page:
http://www.cla.calpoly.edu/~jrubba
> ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
>
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