I started R-K diagramming in the fifth grade and continued through
senior-level course in Advanced Grammar and Advanced Grammar and
Composition.
I have always taught diagramming, when teaching English and have had good
success in the grammar reflected first in grammar exercises, then in themes.
My only experience with any other English program was the mid-70's in a
highly rated school district in the South. The district was using Robert's
as the English text for the gifted class. They had learned so little
grammar, that they had to leave off Robert's in 9th grade and introduce
traditional grammar for the second semester--much to the disgust of those
teaching English to the gifted, who felt that the high school was being
too restrictive and not in sync with the modern times because the HS
expected the incoming students to be quite familiar with the various
subordinate clauses--which were not taught in the 9th grade Robert's
text.
I have taken only one graduate class in modern English that used IC tree
structures. Many English teachers in the class had trouble following
or using IC trees and questioned the value of IC trees. The English
teachers competent in R-K diagramming quickly understood IC trees but saw
no value in using them in class in lieu of diagramming.
-----Original Message-----
From: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar
[mailto:[log in to unmask]] On Behalf Of ATEG automatic digest system
Sent: Saturday, April 12, 2008 12:00 AM
To: [log in to unmask]
Subject: ATEG Digest - 10 Apr 2008 to 11 Apr 2008 (#2008-88)
There are 14 messages totalling 9602 lines in this issue.
Topics of the day:
1. relative advantages of marking sentences versus diagramming (5)
2. Odd sentence
3. Clauses vs. phrases (3)
4. Than vs. other than (2)
5. Grammar Texts
6. ATEG Digest - 9 Apr 2008 to 10 Apr 2008 (#2008-87) (2)
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Date: Thu, 10 Apr 2008 22:23:01 -0700
From: Scott Woods <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: relative advantages of marking sentences versus diagramming
--0-1810166330-1207891381=:8231
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1
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Dear Listmates,
I would appreciate some comment on the relative advantages of marking
sentences (following a KISS Grammar method or similar) versus diagramming
sentences in the Reed-Kellogg style (or variant) for the purposes of
teaching and learning how to understand sentence structure. The students
are diligent upper elementary and middle school students performing at or
above grade level; the teachers believe that grammar instruction is
important; the administration lets the teachers do what they want, provided
their students continue to outperform other schools. Should students learn
diagramming? What advantages does it bring them that marking will not? When
should they learn diagramming? Does anyone have any experience with using
either both methods or diagramming with this age group? Is there any
relevant research?
Thanks,
Scott Woods
__________________________________________________
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<div>Dear Listmates,</div> <div>I would appreciate some comment on the
relative advantages of marking sentences (following a KISS Grammar method or
similar) versus diagramming sentences in the Reed-Kellogg style (or variant)
for the purposes of teaching and learning how to understand sentence
structure. The students are diligent upper elementary and middle
school students performing at or above grade level; the teachers believe
that grammar instruction is important; the administration lets the teachers
do what they want, provided their students continue to outperform other
schools. Should students learn diagramming? What advantages does
it bring them that marking will not? When should they learn
diagramming? Does anyone have any experience with using either
both methods or diagramming with this age group? Is there any relevant
research? </div> <div>Thanks, </div> <div>Scott
Woods</div><p> __________________________________________________<br>Do
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--0-1810166330-1207891381=:8231--
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 10 Apr 2008 23:07:52 -0700
From: diane skinner <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Re: Odd sentence
I would say that the "that..." clause is nonfinite (spelling from
Klammer, et al Analyzing Grammar)
P.S. I don't know how to use either the underline or the italics with
gmail; I need to ask one of my kids.
Diane Skinner
On Wed, Apr 9, 2008 at 2:49 PM, Castilleja, Janet
<[log in to unmask]> wrote:
> Hi
>
> What do you folks make of this sentence? Is the clause that begins 'that
the Greek colonies..." finite or non-finite? I think it is non-finite, but
I'm wavering a little.
>
>
> When they reached the coast of Asia Minor, they insisted that the Greek
colonies of Lydia recognize the Persian Kings as their over- Lords and pay
them a stipulated tax.
>
> Thanks
>
> Janet Castilleja
> Heritage University
>
> To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web
interface at:
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> and select "Join or leave the list"
>
> Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/
>
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------------------------------
Date: Fri, 11 Apr 2008 08:06:21 -0500
From: rbetting <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Re: relative advantages of marking sentences versus diagramming
This is a multi-part message in MIME format.
------=_NextPart_000_0006_01C89BAA.ED959D10
Content-Type: text/plain;
charset="iso-8859-1"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
You might consider my analysis of diagramming from Grammar Today:
The question is whether diagramming helps, whether students understand =
the functions of the various parts of sentences better with diagrams. =
Does it help to put flag and Camping on a line where the system says =
subjects belong? Students could analyze the sentences and come to the =
same conclusion without a diagram. What a diagram does illustrate is =
that Camping, normally a verb, is used as a subject. But students can =
also understand that without a diagram. They've used those kinds of =
nominatives for years. For visual learners, the diagram may help. =
Diagrams appear neat and attractive for some, frown formidably for =
others. Several problems with diagramming: (1) On some level the lines =
and sticks appear to make clear the relationship of the parts, but =
diagrams do almost nothing to explain meaning, while they oversimplify =
language structures. (2) Diagrams in textbooks use someone else's =
sentences. Few difficult ones. None that cannot be parsed neatly. (3) =
Diagrams are not predictive; that is, they don't help students produce =
sentences of their own. (4) Diagrams fail to distinguish between form =
and function; that is, any word or phrase in subject position must be a =
nominative. Many different kinds of structures can be nominatives: =
gerunds, infinitives, prepositional phrases, noun clauses. (5) Badly =
worded and ungrammatical sentences can be diagrammed as neatly as =
well-worded sentences can. (6) Diagramming as an exercise can become an =
end in itself. (7) Sentences are isolated from context, never the case =
in actual use. (8) Diagrams fail to make a connection between knowing =
how to do them and being able to speak and write more effectively. =
Diagrams don't automatically help students improve their style. They may =
even prevent students from exploring their own linguistic creativity.=20
In Teacher Man Frank McCourt explains his inability to teach =
diagramming, the "structure and Euclidian beauty of it." He admits, "I =
tried but failed. I made lines vertical, horizontal, slanting, and then =
I stood, adrift at the blackboard, till a Chinese student volunteered to =
take over and teach the teacher what the teacher should have known."
In her recent book Sister Bernadette's Barking Dog Kitty Burns Florey =
concludes that diagramming, while a joyful activity for some students, =
will not improve their writing or speaking. "Few people would deny that =
students need to master grammar in order to write decently," Florey =
writes. "But there are other places to acquire it than in sixth-grade =
grammar classes. . . . The fact is that a lot of people don't need =
diagramming or anything else: they pick up grammar and syntax =
effortlessly through their reading . . . and they do things correctly =
without knowing why."
=20
Grammar Today 84 Chapter 6. The Beginnings of Traditional Grammar =
Dick Betting =20
----- Original Message -----=20
From: Scott Woods=20
To: [log in to unmask]
Sent: Friday, April 11, 2008 12:23 AM
Subject: relative advantages of marking sentences versus diagramming
Dear Listmates,
I would appreciate some comment on the relative advantages of marking =
sentences (following a KISS Grammar method or similar) versus =
diagramming sentences in the Reed-Kellogg style (or variant) for the =
purposes of teaching and learning how to understand sentence structure. =
The students are diligent upper elementary and middle school students =
performing at or above grade level; the teachers believe that grammar =
instruction is important; the administration lets the teachers do what =
they want, provided their students continue to outperform other schools. =
Should students learn diagramming? What advantages does it bring them =
that marking will not? When should they learn diagramming? Does anyone =
have any experience with using either both methods or diagramming with =
this age group? Is there any relevant research? =20
Thanks,=20
Scott Woods
__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around=20
http://mail.yahoo.com To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please =
visit the list's web interface at: =
http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html and select "Join or leave =
the list"=20
Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/
To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web interface
at:
http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html
and select "Join or leave the list"
Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/
------=_NextPart_000_0006_01C89BAA.ED959D10
Content-Type: text/html;
charset="iso-8859-1"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
<!DOCTYPE HTML PUBLIC "-//W3C//DTD HTML 4.0 Transitional//EN">
<HTML><HEAD>
<META http-equiv=3DContent-Type content=3D"text/html; =
charset=3Diso-8859-1">
<META content=3D"MSHTML 6.00.2800.1106" name=3DGENERATOR>
<STYLE></STYLE>
</HEAD>
<BODY bgColor=3D#ffffff>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>You might consider my analysis of =
diagramming from=20
Grammar Today:</FONT></DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=3DPa15 style=3D"PAGE-BREAK-BEFORE: always; MARGIN: 0in 0in =
0pt"><SPAN=20
class=3DA2><SPAN style=3D"FONT-SIZE: 10pt">The question is whether =
diagramming=20
helps, whether students understand the functions of the various parts of =
sentences better with diagrams. Does it help to put <B><I>flag =
</I></B>and=20
<B><I>Camping </I></B>on a line where the system says subjects belong? =
Students=20
could analyze the sentences and come to the same conclusion without a =
diagram.=20
What a diagram does illustrate is that <B><I>Camping</I></B>, normally a =
verb,=20
is used as a subject. But students can also understand that without a =
diagram.=20
They=92ve used those kinds of nominatives for years. For visual =
learners, the=20
diagram may help. Diagrams appear neat and attractive for some, frown =
formidably=20
for others. </SPAN></SPAN><SPAN class=3DA2><B><SPAN=20
style=3D"FONT-SIZE: 11pt">Several problems with =
diagramming</SPAN></B></SPAN><SPAN=20
class=3DA2><SPAN style=3D"FONT-SIZE: 11pt">: (1) On some level the lines =
and sticks=20
appear to make clear the relationship of the parts, but diagrams do =
almost=20
nothing to explain meaning, while they oversimplify language structures. =
(2)=20
Diagrams in textbooks use someone else=92s sentences. Few difficult =
ones. None=20
that cannot be parsed neatly. (3) Diagrams are not predictive; that is, =
they=20
don=92t help students produce sentences of their own. (4) Diagrams fail =
to=20
distinguish between form and function; that is, any word or phrase in =
subject=20
position must be a nominative. Many different kinds of structures can be =
nominatives: gerunds, infinitives, prepositional phrases, noun clauses. =
(5)=20
Badly worded and ungrammatical sentences can be diagrammed as neatly as=20
well-worded sentences can. (6) Diagramming as an exercise can become an =
end in=20
itself. (7) Sentences are isolated from context, never the case in =
actual use.=20
(8) Diagrams fail to make a connection between knowing how to do them =
and being=20
able to speak and write more effectively. Diagrams don=92t automatically =
help=20
students improve their </SPAN></SPAN><SPAN class=3DA2><SPAN=20
style=3D"FONT-SIZE: 11pt; COLOR: windowtext">style. They may even =
prevent students=20
from exploring their own linguistic creativity. </SPAN></SPAN><SPAN=20
style=3D"FONT-SIZE: 11pt"><?xml:namespace prefix =3D o ns =3D=20
"urn:schemas-microsoft-com:office:office" /><o:p></o:p></SPAN></P>
<P class=3DPa15 style=3D"MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt; TEXT-INDENT: 0.5in"><SPAN=20
class=3DA2><SPAN style=3D"FONT-SIZE: 10.5pt; COLOR: windowtext">In =
<B><I>Teacher Man=20
</I></B>Frank McCourt explains his inability to teach diagramming, the=20
=93structure and Euclidian beauty of it.=94 He admits, =93I tried but =
failed. I made=20
lines vertical, horizontal, slanting, and then I stood, adrift at the=20
blackboard, till a Chinese student volunteered to take over and teach =
the=20
teacher what the teacher should have known.=94</SPAN></SPAN><SPAN=20
style=3D"FONT-SIZE: 10.5pt"><o:p></o:p></SPAN></P>
<P class=3DMsoNormal style=3D"MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt"><SPAN =
class=3DA2><SPAN=20
style=3D"FONT-SIZE: 11pt; COLOR: windowtext">In her recent book =
<B><I>Sister=20
Bernadette=92s Barking Dog </I></B>Kitty Burns Florey concludes that =
diagramming,=20
while a joyful activity for some students, will not improve their =
writing or=20
speaking. =93Few people would deny that students need to master grammar =
in order=20
to write decently,=94 Florey writes. =93But there are other places to =
acquire it=20
than in sixth-grade grammar classes. . . . The fact is that a lot of =
people=20
don=92t need diagramming or anything else: they pick up grammar and =
syntax=20
effortlessly through their reading . . . and they do things correctly =
without=20
knowing why.=94</SPAN></SPAN></P>
<P class=3DPa15 style=3D"MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt; TEXT-INDENT: 0.5in"><SPAN=20
style=3D"FONT-SIZE: 11pt; COLOR: black"> <o:p></o:p></SPAN></P>
<P class=3DDefault style=3D"MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt"><SPAN=20
style=3D"FONT-SIZE: 11pt; COLOR: windowtext">Grammar Today </SPAN><SPAN=20
style=3D"FONT-SIZE: 11.5pt; COLOR: windowtext">84 </SPAN><I><SPAN=20
style=3D"FONT-SIZE: 11pt; COLOR: windowtext; FONT-FAMILY: 'Lucida =
Bright'">Chapter=20
6. The Beginnings of Traditional Grammar Dick=20
Betting </SPAN></I><SPAN=20
style=3D"FONT-SIZE: 11pt; COLOR: windowtext; FONT-FAMILY: 'Lucida =
Bright'"><o:p></o:p></SPAN></P></DIV>
<BLOCKQUOTE dir=3Dltr=20
style=3D"PADDING-RIGHT: 0px; PADDING-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; =
BORDER-LEFT: #000000 2px solid; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px">
<DIV style=3D"FONT: 10pt arial">----- Original Message ----- </DIV>
<DIV=20
style=3D"BACKGROUND: #e4e4e4; FONT: 10pt arial; font-color: =
black"><B>From:</B>=20
<A [log in to unmask] =
href=3D"mailto:[log in to unmask]">Scott=20
Woods</A> </DIV>
<DIV style=3D"FONT: 10pt arial"><B>To:</B> <A =
[log in to unmask]
href=3D"mailto:[log in to unmask]">[log in to unmask]</A> =
</DIV>
<DIV style=3D"FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Sent:</B> Friday, April 11, 2008 =
12:23=20
AM</DIV>
<DIV style=3D"FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Subject:</B> relative advantages of =
marking=20
sentences versus diagramming</DIV>
<DIV><BR></DIV>
<DIV>Dear Listmates,</DIV>
<DIV>I would appreciate some comment on the relative advantages of =
marking=20
sentences (following a KISS Grammar method or similar) versus =
diagramming=20
sentences in the Reed-Kellogg style (or variant) for the purposes of =
teaching=20
and learning how to understand sentence structure. The students =
are=20
diligent upper elementary and middle school students performing at or =
above=20
grade level; the teachers believe that grammar instruction is =
important; the=20
administration lets the teachers do what they want, provided their =
students=20
continue to outperform other schools. Should students learn=20
diagramming? What advantages does it bring them that marking will =
not?=20
When should they learn diagramming? Does anyone have any =
experience=20
with using either both methods or diagramming with this age =
group? Is=20
there any relevant research? </DIV>
<DIV>Thanks, </DIV>
<DIV>Scott Woods</DIV>
<P>__________________________________________________<BR>Do You=20
Yahoo!?<BR>Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection =
around=20
<BR>http://mail.yahoo.com To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please =
visit=20
the list's web interface at: =
http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html and=20
select "Join or leave the list"=20
<P>Visit ATEG's web site at =
http://ateg.org/</P></BLOCKQUOTE></BODY></HTML>
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------=_NextPart_000_0006_01C89BAA.ED959D10--
------------------------------
The only absolute that I see is "Their legs dangling down."
The other two sentences do not have clauses by definition:
I would diagram those phrases as infinitives that complete
the meaning of the verbs.
Scott
Date: Fri, 11 Apr 2008 09:14:37 -0400
From: Craig Hancock <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Re: Clauses vs. phrases
Bill,
How do you deal with absolutes? Or instances when they could be
thought of as subject bearing?
"I watched my father waste away from cancer."
"She felt the wind grow stronger."
"Their legs dangling down, they rode in the boxcar door."
Are these clauses missing just the finite marker?
I think what bothers me more than anything is when absolutes are called
"phrases." Diana Hacker, in the most recent Writer's Reference, calls
them "a noun phrase followed by a participial phrase." Trying to hold
on to these traditional categories can stimulate goofy descriptions.
Craig
Spruiell, William C wrote:
> Until the early twentieth century, people who wrote grammar books tended
> to use terms like "phrase" and "clause" rather unsystematically -- they
> were descriptive labels, but not precisely defined ones. The way the
> terms are used in U.S. K-12 education is the result of a consensus that
> developed among educators on this side of the Atlantic, but it's not a
> universal consensus. A good many Commonwealth grammarians (for example,
> many in the Systemics approach, but certainly not limited to it), use
> "group" for what most Statesiders would call a phrase (basically, any
> phrase that all of us would view as endocentric is a "group," but an
> arguably-exocentric constituent without a predicate is a "phrase," with
> the prepositional phrase being the prime example). Similarly, the
> requirement that a clause have a subject and finite verb is part of the
> consensus that developed here, but not elsewhere.
>
> I like to view gerunds, infinitives, etc. as kinds of *predicates* --
> but that's based on an approach in which the clause has three, rather
> than two, major constituents: subject, finite marker, and predicate. I
> derived that from SFL, but there are analogues in other modern
> approaches and there are certainly historical precedents for that
> tripartite division. It's not part of the K-12 consensus, though, such
> that it is, so I don't harp on it much in my pedagogic grammar classes.
>
> Bill Spruiell
> Dept. of English
> Central Michigan University
>
> To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web interface
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>
>
>
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------------------------------
Date: Fri, 11 Apr 2008 08:18:09 -0600
From: Bruce Despain <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Re: Than vs. other than
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------------------------------
Date: Fri, 11 Apr 2008 12:41:03 -0400
From: "Spruiell, William C" <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Re: Clauses vs. phrases
Craig,
I find it difficult to shoehorn absolutes into any category that works
well for other kinds of constructions; they're a bit analogous to the
duck-billed platypus. I think, though, that only your last example
involves a "canonical" absolute - the traditional definition requires
the verb form to be a present or past participle, and the structure as a
whole can't be acting as a subject or object in any sense (the lack of a
standard grammatical relation between the construction and the rest of
the sentence was the motivation for using the label "absolute").=20
Whether or not I (or anyone else) *calls* the structures in your first
two examples absolutes or not, though, they're much more common in
English than canonical absolutes are. I *would* treat them as nonfinite
clauses, rather than as nonfinite predicates with an extra something up
front, and I'd treat a canonical absolute the same way. Now I'm stuck
trying to figure out how to cast the difference between the canonical
absolutes and these other things. They're a kind of nonfinite complement
clause, whereas an absolute is also nonfinite, but isn't a complement. I
suppose absolutes could be treated as nonfinite adverbial clauses, but
I'm always want to start checking myself when I slap the "adverbial"
label on something -- it's the "none of the above" category.
Bill Spruiell
Dept. of English
Central Michigan University
-----Original Message-----
From: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar
[mailto:[log in to unmask]] On Behalf Of Craig Hancock
Sent: Friday, April 11, 2008 9:15 AM
To: [log in to unmask]
Subject: Re: Clauses vs. phrases
Bill,
How do you deal with absolutes? Or instances when they could be=20
thought of as subject bearing?
"I watched my father waste away from cancer."
"She felt the wind grow stronger."
"Their legs dangling down, they rode in the boxcar door."
Are these clauses missing just the finite marker?
I think what bothers me more than anything is when absolutes are called=20
"phrases." Diana Hacker, in the most recent Writer's Reference, calls=20
them "a noun phrase followed by a participial phrase." Trying to hold=20
on to these traditional categories can stimulate goofy descriptions.
Craig
Spruiell, William C wrote:
> Until the early twentieth century, people who wrote grammar books
tended
> to use terms like "phrase" and "clause" rather unsystematically --
they
> were descriptive labels, but not precisely defined ones. The way the
> terms are used in U.S. K-12 education is the result of a consensus
that
> developed among educators on this side of the Atlantic, but it's not a
> universal consensus. A good many Commonwealth grammarians (for
example,
> many in the Systemics approach, but certainly not limited to it), use
> "group" for what most Statesiders would call a phrase (basically, any
> phrase that all of us would view as endocentric is a "group," but an
> arguably-exocentric constituent without a predicate is a "phrase,"
with
> the prepositional phrase being the prime example). Similarly, the
> requirement that a clause have a subject and finite verb is part of
the
> consensus that developed here, but not elsewhere.
>
> I like to view gerunds, infinitives, etc. as kinds of *predicates* --
> but that's based on an approach in which the clause has three, rather
> than two, major constituents: subject, finite marker, and predicate. I
> derived that from SFL, but there are analogues in other modern
> approaches and there are certainly historical precedents for that
> tripartite division. It's not part of the K-12 consensus, though, such
> that it is, so I don't harp on it much in my pedagogic grammar
classes.
>
> Bill Spruiell
> Dept. of English
> Central Michigan University
>
> To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web
interface at:
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> and select "Join or leave the list"
>
> Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/
>
>
> =20
To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web
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Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/
To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web interface
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Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/
------------------------------
Date: Fri, 11 Apr 2008 12:57:07 -0400
From: "Spruiell, William C" <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Re: Than vs. other than
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Date: Fri, 11 Apr 2008 13:12:43 -0400
From: Craig Hancock <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Re: Clauses vs. phrases
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Bill,<br>
I miss-represented the examples a bit by being ambiguous with
my
"or" and "they" in "or examples where they [these clauses or phrases]
seem to be subject bearing." I didn't mean to imply that all would be
absolutes. To me, the real in-between one is an absolute with an
explicit "with". "With his hands cuffed behind him, the prisoner was
led into the courtroom." The "with" is optional, but gives the
structure a clearer role. (Is it there all along? Adjectival?)<br>
In systemic functional grammar, they are thought of as
subject-bearing non-finite clauses. Halliday talks about their
frequency as complements of perception verbs. <br>
I like your three part requirement for a main clause or matrix
clause--subject, predicate, and finite marker. But then we have the
situation in traditional grammar where commands are thought of as
clauses despite having subject only implied. They seem to value the
finite marking more than the explicit subject as a criteria for
clausehood.<br>
"Go ahead. Keep on smoking. Kill yourself. See if I care." <br>
Around about now, I try to remind myself that classifying has
little
inherent value, that all this discussion should lead us heart and soul
into the richness of language. We could call clauses with all three
criteria full clauses and the others as partial, though maybe partial
in differing ways. Sometimes the subject is only implied. Sometimes the
finite is missing. Sometimes both.<br>
Since we have finite subordinate clauses, even main clause
status is
a variable for the full clauses.<br>
<br>
Craig<br>
<br>
<br>
Spruiell, William C wrote:
<blockquote
cite="mid:[log in to unmask]
l"
type="cite">
<pre wrap="">Craig,
I find it difficult to shoehorn absolutes into any category that works
well for other kinds of constructions; they're a bit analogous to the
duck-billed platypus. I think, though, that only your last example
involves a "canonical" absolute - the traditional definition requires
the verb form to be a present or past participle, and the structure as a
whole can't be acting as a subject or object in any sense (the lack of a
standard grammatical relation between the construction and the rest of
the sentence was the motivation for using the label "absolute").
Whether or not I (or anyone else) *calls* the structures in your first
two examples absolutes or not, though, they're much more common in
English than canonical absolutes are. I *would* treat them as nonfinite
clauses, rather than as nonfinite predicates with an extra something up
front, and I'd treat a canonical absolute the same way. Now I'm stuck
trying to figure out how to cast the difference between the canonical
absolutes and these other things. They're a kind of nonfinite complement
clause, whereas an absolute is also nonfinite, but isn't a complement. I
suppose absolutes could be treated as nonfinite adverbial clauses, but
I'm always want to start checking myself when I slap the "adverbial"
label on something -- it's the "none of the above" category.
Bill Spruiell
Dept. of English
Central Michigan University
-----Original Message-----
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------------------------------
Date: Fri, 11 Apr 2008 13:30:28 -0400
From: "Veit, Richard" <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Re: Grammar Texts
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At the cost of self-promotion:
=20
Veit, Richard. Discovering English Grammar. Longman.
________________________________
Richard Veit
Department of English
University of North Carolina Wilmington
________________________________
What have you overlooked? Admittedly, the two-volume Curme is incomplete
but Jesperson's Essentials of English grammar is not. Pence & Emery's A
grammar of present-day English is excellent. I was lucky enough to have
one edition in my Advanced Grammar class and a revised edition in my
Advanced Grammar and Composition class a few years later. These will not
be to everyone's taste because they deal more with English grammar and less
with grammar theory: I had a UT-Austin graduate extension class in modern
grammar for English teachers in which the instructor spent the entire
semester trying to explain why modern English grammar did not consider the
verb "to be" to be a verb in English. I did not understand his explanations
and he could not explain himself further--no one else seemed to understand.
Those few who claimed to understand could do nothing more than parrot the
instructor and seemed clueless about English grammar in general. I did
not make an issue because I had been admitted to the PhD program at UT.
From: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar
[mailto:[log in to unmask]] On Behalf Of Peter Adams
Sent: Thursday, April 10, 2008 3:25 PM
To: [log in to unmask]
Subject: Grammar Texts
=20
I am thinking that it might be useful to some on this list to see a list
of texts that could be used in a credit grammar course. So I thought I
would get the list going with the texts I'm familiar with and then ask
others to add to the list. Please understand that I am not necessarily
recommending all of these, but I thought people might find it useful to
see what their options are. So here's a list of the grammar texts I
find on my shelf today:
=20
=20
Biber, Douglas, Susan Conrad, and Geoffrey Leech. Longman Student
Grammar of Spoken and Written English. Longman.
=20
Greenbaum, Sidney. Oxford English Grammar. Oxford UP.
=20
Greenbaum, Sidney, and Randolph Quirk. A Student's Grammar of the
English Language. Longman.
=20
Hancock, Craig. Meaning-Centered Grammar: An Introductory Text.
Equinox.
=20
Huddleston, Rodney, and Geoffrey K. Pullum. The Cambridge Grammar of the
English Language. Cambridge UP.
=20
Kaplan, Jeffrey. English Grammar: Principles and Facts. Prentice Hall.
=20
Klammer, Thomas P., Muriel R. Schulz, and Angela della Volpe. Analyzing
English Grammar. Pearson.
=20
Kolln, Martha, and Robert Funk. Understanding English Grammar. Pearson.
=20
Morenberg, Max. Doing Grammar. Oxford UP.
=20
=20
=20
What have I overlooked?
=20
Peter Adams
=3D To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web
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"Join or leave the list"=20
Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/
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<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D2 color=3Dnavy face=3DArial><span =
style=3D'font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy'>At the cost of =
self-promotion:<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D2 color=3Dnavy face=3DArial><span =
style=3D'font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy'><o:p> </o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=3DMsoNormal><st1:PersonName w:st=3D"on"><font size=3D2 =
color=3Dnavy
face=3DArial><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy'>Veit,
Richard</span></font></st1:PersonName><font size=3D2 color=3Dnavy =
face=3DArial><span
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy'>. <i><span
style=3D'font-style:italic'>Discovering English Grammar</span></i>. =
Longman.<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<div>
<p class=3DMsoNormal =
style=3D'mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><font
size=3D2 color=3Dteal face=3DArial><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Arial;
color:teal'>________________________________</span></font><font =
color=3Dnavy><span
style=3D'color:navy'><o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=3DMsoNormal =
style=3D'mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><font
size=3D2 color=3Dteal face=3DArial><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Arial;
color:teal'>Richard Veit<br>
Department of English<br>
</span></font><font size=3D2 face=3DArial><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:
Arial'><ns0:PlaceType w:insAuthor=3D"UNCW" =
w:insDate=3D"2008-04-11T13:27:00Z"
w:endInsAuthor=3D"UNCW" =
w:endInsDate=3D"2008-04-11T13:27:00Z"><st1:PlaceType
w:st=3D"on"><font color=3Dteal><span =
style=3D'color:teal'>University</span></font></st1:PlaceType></ns0:PlaceT=
ype><font
color=3Dteal><span style=3D'color:teal'> of </span></font><ns0:PlaceName
w:insAuthor=3D"UNCW" w:insDate=3D"2008-04-11T13:27:00Z" =
w:endInsAuthor=3D"UNCW"
w:endInsDate=3D"2008-04-11T13:27:00Z"><st1:PlaceName w:st=3D"on"><font =
color=3Dteal><span
style=3D'color:teal'>North =
Carolina</span></font></st1:PlaceName></ns0:PlaceName><font
color=3Dteal><span style=3D'color:teal'> </span></font><ns0:City =
w:insAuthor=3D"UNCW"
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w:st=3D"on"><font
color=3Dteal><span =
style=3D'color:teal'>Wilmington</span></font></st1:place></st1:City></ns0=
:place></ns0:City></span></font><o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class=3DMsoNormal><b><font size=3D2 face=3DTahoma><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;
font-family:Tahoma;font-weight:bold'>From:</span></font></b><font =
size=3D2
face=3DTahoma><span style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Tahoma'> =
<st1:PersonName
w:st=3D"on">Assembly for the Teaching of English =
Grammar</st1:PersonName>
[mailto:[log in to unmask]] <b><span style=3D'font-weight:bold'>On =
Behalf
Of </span></b>Peter Adams<br>
<b><span style=3D'font-weight:bold'>Sent:</span></b> Thursday, April 10, =
2008
3:25 PM<br>
<b><span style=3D'font-weight:bold'>To:</span></b> =
[log in to unmask]<br>
<b><span style=3D'font-weight:bold'>Subject:</span></b> Grammar =
Texts</span></font><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D3 face=3D"Times New Roman"><span =
style=3D'font-size:
12.0pt'><o:p> </o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D3 face=3D"Times New Roman"><span =
style=3D'font-size:
12.0pt'>I am thinking that it might be useful to some on this list to =
see a
list of texts that could be used in a credit grammar course. So I =
thought
I would get the list going with the texts I'm familiar with and then ask =
others
to add to the list. Please understand that I am not necessarily
recommending all of these, but I thought people might find it useful to =
see
what their options are. So here's a list of the grammar texts I =
find on
my shelf today:<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<div>
<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D3 face=3D"Times New Roman"><span =
style=3D'font-size:
12.0pt'><o:p> </o:p></span></font></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D3 face=3D"Times New Roman"><span =
style=3D'font-size:
12.0pt'><o:p> </o:p></span></font></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D3 face=3D"Times New Roman"><span =
style=3D'font-size:
12.0pt'>Biber, Douglas, Susan Conrad, and Geoffrey Leech. <i><span
style=3D'font-style:italic'>Longman Student Grammar of Spoken and =
Written English</span></i>.
Longman.<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D3 face=3D"Times New Roman"><span =
style=3D'font-size:
12.0pt'><o:p> </o:p></span></font></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D3 face=3D"Times New Roman"><span =
style=3D'font-size:
12.0pt'>Greenbaum, Sidney. <st1:City w:st=3D"on"><st1:place =
w:st=3D"on"><i><span
=
style=3D'font-style:italic'>Oxford</span></i></st1:place></st1:City><i><s=
pan
style=3D'font-style:italic'> English Grammar</span></i>. <st1:City =
w:st=3D"on"><st1:place
w:st=3D"on">Oxford</st1:place></st1:City> =
UP.<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D3 face=3D"Times New Roman"><span =
style=3D'font-size:
12.0pt'><o:p> </o:p></span></font></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D3 face=3D"Times New Roman"><span =
style=3D'font-size:
12.0pt'>Greenbaum, Sidney, and <st1:City w:st=3D"on"><st1:place =
w:st=3D"on">Randolph</st1:place></st1:City>
Quirk. <i><span style=3D'font-style:italic'>A Student's Grammar of =
the
English Language</span></i>. Longman.<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D3 face=3D"Times New Roman"><span =
style=3D'font-size:
12.0pt'><o:p> </o:p></span></font></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D3 face=3D"Times New Roman"><span =
style=3D'font-size:
12.0pt'>Hancock, Craig. <i><span =
style=3D'font-style:italic'>Meaning-Centered
Grammar: An Introductory Text</span></i>. =
Equinox.<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D3 face=3D"Times New Roman"><span =
style=3D'font-size:
12.0pt'><o:p> </o:p></span></font></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D3 face=3D"Times New Roman"><span =
style=3D'font-size:
12.0pt'>Huddleston, Rodney, and Geoffrey K. Pullum. <i><span
style=3D'font-style:italic'>The <st1:City w:st=3D"on"><st1:place =
w:st=3D"on">Cambridge</st1:place></st1:City>
Grammar of the English Language</span></i>. <st1:City =
w:st=3D"on"><st1:place
w:st=3D"on">Cambridge</st1:place></st1:City> =
UP.<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D3 face=3D"Times New Roman"><span =
style=3D'font-size:
12.0pt'><o:p> </o:p></span></font></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D3 face=3D"Times New Roman"><span =
style=3D'font-size:
12.0pt'>Kaplan, Jeffrey. <i><span =
style=3D'font-style:italic'>English
Grammar: Principles and Facts</span></i>. Prentice =
Hall.<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D3 face=3D"Times New Roman"><span =
style=3D'font-size:
12.0pt'><o:p> </o:p></span></font></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D3 face=3D"Times New Roman"><span =
style=3D'font-size:
12.0pt'>Klammer, Thomas P., Muriel R. Schulz, and Angela della Volpe. =
<i><span
style=3D'font-style:italic'>Analyzing English Grammar</span></i>. =
Pearson.<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D3 face=3D"Times New Roman"><span =
style=3D'font-size:
12.0pt'><o:p> </o:p></span></font></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D3 face=3D"Times New Roman"><span =
style=3D'font-size:
12.0pt'>Kolln, Martha, and Robert Funk. <i><span =
style=3D'font-style:italic'>Understanding
English Grammar</span></i>. Pearson.<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D3 face=3D"Times New Roman"><span =
style=3D'font-size:
12.0pt'><o:p> </o:p></span></font></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D3 face=3D"Times New Roman"><span =
style=3D'font-size:
12.0pt'>Morenberg, Max. <i><span style=3D'font-style:italic'>Doing =
Grammar</span></i>.
<st1:City w:st=3D"on"><st1:place =
w:st=3D"on">Oxford</st1:place></st1:City> =
UP.<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D3 face=3D"Times New Roman"><span =
style=3D'font-size:
12.0pt'><o:p> </o:p></span></font></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D3 face=3D"Times New Roman"><span =
style=3D'font-size:
12.0pt'><o:p> </o:p></span></font></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D3 face=3D"Times New Roman"><span =
style=3D'font-size:
12.0pt'><o:p> </o:p></span></font></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D3 face=3D"Times New Roman"><span =
style=3D'font-size:
12.0pt'>What have I overlooked?<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D3 face=3D"Times New Roman"><span =
style=3D'font-size:
12.0pt'><o:p> </o:p></span></font></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D3 face=3D"Times New Roman"><span =
style=3D'font-size:
12.0pt'>Peter Adams<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
</div>
</div>
</body>
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=3D
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<p>
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------_=_NextPart_001_01C89BF9.B35CD336--
------------------------------
Date: Fri, 11 Apr 2008 18:37:38 -0400
From: Scott <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Re: ATEG Digest - 9 Apr 2008 to 10 Apr 2008 (#2008-87)
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for <[log in to unmask]>; Fri, 11 Apr 2008 22:39:22 +0000
From: "Scott" <[log in to unmask]>
To: "'Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar'"
<[log in to unmask]>
References: <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: RE: ATEG Digest - 9 Apr 2008 to 10 Apr 2008 (#2008-87)
Date: Fri, 11 Apr 2008 18:37:38 -0400
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In-Reply-To: <[log in to unmask]>
Note the verbal equivalents:
[T]hey insisted that the Greek colonies of Lydia recognize the Persian
Kings. [sic, kings should not be capitalized in this context]
[T]hey insisted on the Greek colonies of Lydia's recognizing the Persian
Kings. [I abhor such phrasal possessives]
[T]hey ordered the Greek colonies of Lydia to recognize the Persian Kings
Original Message-----
From: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar
[mailto:[log in to unmask]] On Behalf Of ATEG automatic digest system
Sent: Friday, April 11, 2008 12:00 AM
To: [log in to unmask]
Subject: ATEG Digest - 9 Apr 2008 to 10 Apr 2008 (#2008-87)
There are 9 messages totalling 3128 lines in this issue.
Topics of the day:
1. Odd sentence (4)
2. Clauses vs. phrases (3)
3. Grammar Texts
4. Than vs. other than
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----------------------------------------------------------------------
Date: Thu, 10 Apr 2008 11:16:26 -0400
From: "Veit, Richard" <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Re: Odd sentence
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Herb,
=20
The following would seem to be an exception to the claim that the actor
of a nonfinite verb is never nominative:
=20
Were she to leave, everyone would panic.
=20
Dick
=20
________________________________
=20
Richard Veit
Department of English
University of North Carolina Wilmington
=20
=20
-----Original Message-----
From: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar
[mailto:[log in to unmask]] On Behalf Of STAHLKE, HERBERT F
Sent: Wednesday, April 09, 2008 9:38 PM
To: [log in to unmask]
Subject: Re: Odd sentence
=20
I think an argument for that the subjunctive with "suggest" is a finite
clause is that it takes a nominative subject pronoun. Nonfinite clauses
take objective case or, with -ing forms, objective or genitive.
=20
I suggest that she leave earlier.
I encouraged her to leave earlier.
I was surprised at her/him/his leaving early.
=20
Herb
=20
-----Original Message-----
From: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar
[mailto:[log in to unmask]] On Behalf Of Spruiell, William C
Sent: 2008-04-09 18:56
To: [log in to unmask]
Subject: Re: Odd sentence
=20
I'd treat that as a subjunctive -- there's the "If I were president"
type, and the "I suggested she be hired" type, and this looks like a
version of the latter, albeit in a nominal that-clause. That's actually
dodging your question a bit, though. For the first type of subjunctive,
one can argue for finiteness on the basis of the fact that the
subjunctive form can occur before the verb, and that kind of "inversion"
is characteristic of finite forms (but auxiliaries, in non-subjunctive
examples). Instead of "If I were president..." one can opt for the
hyperformal "Were I president..." variant.=20
=20
I can't think of anything similar one can do with the suggest-type
subjunctive that would prove it's finite, unless you're willing to
accept the claim that its presence in a nominal that-clause is
sufficient proof of finiteness. That feels a bit circular, somehow -- it
rests on the assumption that a non-finite that-clause is impossible,
when someone could simply argue that this is an example of just such a
thing.
=20
Bill Spruiell
=20
=20
-----Original Message-----
From: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar
[mailto:[log in to unmask]] On Behalf Of Castilleja, Janet
Sent: Wednesday, April 09, 2008 5:49 PM
To: [log in to unmask]
Subject: Odd sentence
=20
Hi
=20
What do you folks make of this sentence? Is the clause that begins
'that the Greek colonies..." finite or non-finite? I think it is
non-finite, but I'm wavering a little.=20
=20
=20
When they reached the coast of Asia Minor, they insisted that the
Greek colonies of Lydia recognize the Persian Kings as their over- Lords
and pay them a stipulated tax.
=20
Thanks
=20
Janet Castilleja
Heritage University
=20
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=20
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=20
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and select "Join or leave the list"
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To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web
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To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web interface
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<div class=3DSection1>
<p class=3DMsoPlainText><font size=3D2 color=3D"#003366" =
face=3DArial><span
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:#003366'>Herb,<o:p></o:=
p></span></font></p>
<p class=3DMsoPlainText><font size=3D2 color=3D"#003366" =
face=3DArial><span
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:#003366'><o:p> </o=
:p></span></font></p>
<p class=3DMsoPlainText><font size=3D2 color=3D"#003366" =
face=3DArial><span
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:#003366'>The following =
would
seem to be an exception to the claim that the actor of a nonfinite verb =
is
never nominative:<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=3DMsoPlainText><font size=3D2 color=3D"#003366" =
face=3DArial><span
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:#003366'><o:p> </o=
:p></span></font></p>
<p class=3DMsoPlainText><font size=3D2 color=3D"#003366" =
face=3DArial><span
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:#003366'> &n=
bsp; Were
she to leave, everyone would panic.<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=3DMsoPlainText><font size=3D2 color=3D"#003366" =
face=3DArial><span
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:#003366'><o:p> </o=
:p></span></font></p>
<p class=3DMsoPlainText><font size=3D2 color=3D"#003366" =
face=3DArial><span
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:#003366'>Dick<o:p></o:p=
></span></font></p>
<p class=3DMsoPlainText><font size=3D2 face=3DArial><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;
font-family:Arial'><o:p> </o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=3DMsoPlainText><font size=3D2 color=3Dteal face=3DArial><span
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:teal'>_________________=
_______________<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=3DMsoPlainText><font size=3D2 color=3Dteal face=3DArial><span
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:teal'><o:p> </o:p>=
</span></font></p>
<p class=3DMsoPlainText><font size=3D2 color=3Dteal face=3DArial><span
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:teal'>Richard =
Veit<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=3DMsoPlainText><font size=3D2 color=3Dteal face=3DArial><span
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:teal'>Department of =
English<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=3DMsoPlainText><st1:PlaceType w:st=3D"on"><font size=3D2 =
color=3Dteal
face=3DArial><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:teal'>University</span>=
</font></st1:PlaceType><font
color=3Dteal face=3DArial><span style=3D'font-family:Arial;color:teal'> =
of <st1:PlaceName
w:st=3D"on">North Carolina</st1:PlaceName> <st1:City =
w:st=3D"on"><st1:place =
w:st=3D"on">Wilmington</st1:place></st1:City><o:p></o:p></span></font></p=
>
<p class=3DMsoPlainText><font size=3D2 face=3D"Courier New"><span =
style=3D'font-size:
10.0pt'><o:p> </o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=3DMsoPlainText><font size=3D2 face=3D"Courier New"><span =
style=3D'font-size:
10.0pt'><o:p> </o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=3DMsoPlainText><font size=3D2 face=3D"Courier New"><span =
style=3D'font-size:
10.0pt'>-----Original Message-----<br>
From: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar
[mailto:[log in to unmask]] On Behalf Of STAHLKE, HERBERT F<br>
Sent: Wednesday, April 09, 2008 9:38 PM<br>
To: [log in to unmask]<br>
Subject: Re: Odd sentence</span></font></p>
<p class=3DMsoPlainText><font size=3D2 face=3D"Courier New"><span =
style=3D'font-size:
10.0pt'><o:p> </o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=3DMsoPlainText><font size=3D2 face=3D"Courier New"><span =
style=3D'font-size:
10.0pt'>I think an argument for that the subjunctive with =
"suggest"
is a finite<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=3DMsoPlainText><font size=3D2 face=3D"Courier New"><span =
style=3D'font-size:
10.0pt'>clause is that it takes a nominative subject pronoun. =
Nonfinite
clauses<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=3DMsoPlainText><font size=3D2 face=3D"Courier New"><span =
style=3D'font-size:
10.0pt'>take objective case or, with -ing forms, objective or =
genitive.<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=3DMsoPlainText><font size=3D2 face=3D"Courier New"><span =
style=3D'font-size:
10.0pt'><o:p> </o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=3DMsoPlainText><font size=3D2 face=3D"Courier New"><span =
style=3D'font-size:
10.0pt'>I suggest that she leave earlier.<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=3DMsoPlainText><font size=3D2 face=3D"Courier New"><span =
style=3D'font-size:
10.0pt'>I encouraged her to leave earlier.<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=3DMsoPlainText><font size=3D2 face=3D"Courier New"><span =
style=3D'font-size:
10.0pt'>I was surprised at her/him/his leaving =
early.<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=3DMsoPlainText><font size=3D2 face=3D"Courier New"><span =
style=3D'font-size:
10.0pt'><o:p> </o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=3DMsoPlainText><font size=3D2 face=3D"Courier New"><span =
style=3D'font-size:
10.0pt'>Herb<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=3DMsoPlainText><font size=3D2 face=3D"Courier New"><span =
style=3D'font-size:
10.0pt'><o:p> </o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=3DMsoPlainText><font size=3D2 face=3D"Courier New"><span =
style=3D'font-size:
10.0pt'>-----Original Message-----<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=3DMsoPlainText><font size=3D2 face=3D"Courier New"><span =
style=3D'font-size:
10.0pt'>From: Assembly for the Teaching of English =
Grammar<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=3DMsoPlainText><font size=3D2 face=3D"Courier New"><span =
style=3D'font-size:
10.0pt'>[mailto:[log in to unmask]] On Behalf Of Spruiell, William =
C<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=3DMsoPlainText><font size=3D2 face=3D"Courier New"><span =
style=3D'font-size:
10.0pt'>Sent: 2008-04-09 18:56<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=3DMsoPlainText><font size=3D2 face=3D"Courier New"><span =
style=3D'font-size:
10.0pt'>To: [log in to unmask]<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=3DMsoPlainText><font size=3D2 face=3D"Courier New"><span =
style=3D'font-size:
10.0pt'>Subject: Re: Odd sentence<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=3DMsoPlainText><font size=3D2 face=3D"Courier New"><span =
style=3D'font-size:
10.0pt'><o:p> </o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=3DMsoPlainText><font size=3D2 face=3D"Courier New"><span =
style=3D'font-size:
10.0pt'>I'd treat that as a subjunctive -- there's the "If I were =
president"<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=3DMsoPlainText><font size=3D2 face=3D"Courier New"><span =
style=3D'font-size:
10.0pt'>type, and the "I suggested she be hired" type, and =
this looks
like a<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=3DMsoPlainText><font size=3D2 face=3D"Courier New"><span =
style=3D'font-size:
10.0pt'>version of the latter, albeit in a nominal that-clause. That's =
actually<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=3DMsoPlainText><font size=3D2 face=3D"Courier New"><span =
style=3D'font-size:
10.0pt'>dodging your question a bit, though. For the first type of =
subjunctive,<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=3DMsoPlainText><font size=3D2 face=3D"Courier New"><span =
style=3D'font-size:
10.0pt'>one can argue for finiteness on the basis of the fact that =
the<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=3DMsoPlainText><font size=3D2 face=3D"Courier New"><span =
style=3D'font-size:
10.0pt'>subjunctive form can occur before the verb, and that kind of
"inversion"<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=3DMsoPlainText><font size=3D2 face=3D"Courier New"><span =
style=3D'font-size:
10.0pt'>is characteristic of finite forms (but auxiliaries, in =
non-subjunctive<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=3DMsoPlainText><font size=3D2 face=3D"Courier New"><span =
style=3D'font-size:
10.0pt'>examples). Instead of "If I were president..." one can =
opt
for the<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=3DMsoPlainText><font size=3D2 face=3D"Courier New"><span =
style=3D'font-size:
10.0pt'>hyperformal "Were I president..." variant. =
<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=3DMsoPlainText><font size=3D2 face=3D"Courier New"><span =
style=3D'font-size:
10.0pt'><o:p> </o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=3DMsoPlainText><font size=3D2 face=3D"Courier New"><span =
style=3D'font-size:
10.0pt'>I can't think of anything similar one can do with the =
suggest-type<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=3DMsoPlainText><font size=3D2 face=3D"Courier New"><span =
style=3D'font-size:
10.0pt'>subjunctive that would prove it's finite, unless you're willing =
to<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=3DMsoPlainText><font size=3D2 face=3D"Courier New"><span =
style=3D'font-size:
10.0pt'>accept the claim that its presence in a nominal that-clause =
is<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=3DMsoPlainText><font size=3D2 face=3D"Courier New"><span =
style=3D'font-size:
10.0pt'>sufficient proof of finiteness. That feels a bit circular, =
somehow --
it<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=3DMsoPlainText><font size=3D2 face=3D"Courier New"><span =
style=3D'font-size:
10.0pt'>rests on the assumption that a non-finite that-clause is =
impossible,<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=3DMsoPlainText><font size=3D2 face=3D"Courier New"><span =
style=3D'font-size:
10.0pt'>when someone could simply argue that this is an example of just =
such a<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=3DMsoPlainText><font size=3D2 face=3D"Courier New"><span =
style=3D'font-size:
10.0pt'>thing.<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=3DMsoPlainText><font size=3D2 face=3D"Courier New"><span =
style=3D'font-size:
10.0pt'><o:p> </o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=3DMsoPlainText><font size=3D2 face=3D"Courier New"><span =
style=3D'font-size:
10.0pt'>Bill Spruiell<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=3DMsoPlainText><font size=3D2 face=3D"Courier New"><span =
style=3D'font-size:
10.0pt'><o:p> </o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=3DMsoPlainText><font size=3D2 face=3D"Courier New"><span =
style=3D'font-size:
10.0pt'><o:p> </o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=3DMsoPlainText><font size=3D2 face=3D"Courier New"><span =
style=3D'font-size:
10.0pt'>-----Original Message-----<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=3DMsoPlainText><font size=3D2 face=3D"Courier New"><span =
style=3D'font-size:
10.0pt'>From: Assembly for the Teaching of English =
Grammar<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=3DMsoPlainText><font size=3D2 face=3D"Courier New"><span =
style=3D'font-size:
10.0pt'>[mailto:[log in to unmask]] On Behalf Of Castilleja, =
Janet<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=3DMsoPlainText><font size=3D2 face=3D"Courier New"><span =
style=3D'font-size:
10.0pt'>Sent: Wednesday, April 09, 2008 5:49 =
PM<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=3DMsoPlainText><font size=3D2 face=3D"Courier New"><span =
style=3D'font-size:
10.0pt'>To: [log in to unmask]<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=3DMsoPlainText><font size=3D2 face=3D"Courier New"><span =
style=3D'font-size:
10.0pt'>Subject: Odd sentence<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=3DMsoPlainText><font size=3D2 face=3D"Courier New"><span =
style=3D'font-size:
10.0pt'><o:p> </o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=3DMsoPlainText><font size=3D2 face=3D"Courier New"><span =
style=3D'font-size:
10.0pt'>Hi<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=3DMsoPlainText><font size=3D2 face=3D"Courier New"><span =
style=3D'font-size:
10.0pt'> <o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=3DMsoPlainText><font size=3D2 face=3D"Courier New"><span =
style=3D'font-size:
10.0pt'>What do you folks make of this sentence? Is the clause =
that
begins<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=3DMsoPlainText><font size=3D2 face=3D"Courier New"><span =
style=3D'font-size:
10.0pt'>'that the Greek colonies..." finite or non-finite? I =
think
it is<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=3DMsoPlainText><font size=3D2 face=3D"Courier New"><span =
style=3D'font-size:
10.0pt'>non-finite, but I'm wavering a little. =
<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=3DMsoPlainText><font size=3D2 face=3D"Courier New"><span =
style=3D'font-size:
10.0pt'> <o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=3DMsoPlainText><font size=3D2 face=3D"Courier New"><span =
style=3D'font-size:
10.0pt'> <o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=3DMsoPlainText><font size=3D2 face=3D"Courier New"><span =
style=3D'font-size:
10.0pt'>When they reached the coast of <st1:place =
w:st=3D"on">Asia
Minor</st1:place>, they insisted that the<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=3DMsoPlainText><font size=3D2 face=3D"Courier New"><span =
style=3D'font-size:
10.0pt'>Greek colonies of <st1:country-region w:st=3D"on"><st1:place =
w:st=3D"on">Lydia</st1:place></st1:country-region>
recognize the Persian Kings as their over- =
Lords<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=3DMsoPlainText><font size=3D2 face=3D"Courier New"><span =
style=3D'font-size:
10.0pt'>and pay them a stipulated tax.<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=3DMsoPlainText><font size=3D2 face=3D"Courier New"><span =
style=3D'font-size:
10.0pt'> <o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=3DMsoPlainText><font size=3D2 face=3D"Courier New"><span =
style=3D'font-size:
10.0pt'>Thanks<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=3DMsoPlainText><font size=3D2 face=3D"Courier New"><span =
style=3D'font-size:
10.0pt'> <o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=3DMsoPlainText><font size=3D2 face=3D"Courier New"><span =
style=3D'font-size:
10.0pt'>Janet Castilleja<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=3DMsoPlainText><st1:place w:st=3D"on"><st1:PlaceName =
w:st=3D"on"><font
size=3D2 face=3D"Courier New"><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt'>Heritage</span></font></st1:PlaceName>
<st1:PlaceType =
w:st=3D"on">University</st1:PlaceType></st1:place><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3DMsoPlainText><font size=3D2 face=3D"Courier New"><span =
style=3D'font-size:
10.0pt'><o:p> </o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=3DMsoPlainText><font size=3D2 face=3D"Courier New"><span =
style=3D'font-size:
10.0pt'>To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's =
web<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=3DMsoPlainText><font size=3D2 face=3D"Courier New"><span =
style=3D'font-size:
10.0pt'>interface at:<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=3DMsoPlainText><font size=3D2 face=3D"Courier New"><span =
style=3D'font-size:
10.0pt'> =
http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html<o:p></o:p></span></font></p=
>
<p class=3DMsoPlainText><font size=3D2 face=3D"Courier New"><span =
style=3D'font-size:
10.0pt'>and select "Join or leave the =
list"<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=3DMsoPlainText><font size=3D2 face=3D"Courier New"><span =
style=3D'font-size:
10.0pt'><o:p> </o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=3DMsoPlainText><font size=3D2 face=3D"Courier New"><span =
style=3D'font-size:
10.0pt'>Visit ATEG's web site at =
http://ateg.org/<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=3DMsoPlainText><font size=3D2 face=3D"Courier New"><span =
style=3D'font-size:
10.0pt'><o:p> </o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=3DMsoPlainText><font size=3D2 face=3D"Courier New"><span =
style=3D'font-size:
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web<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=3DMsoPlainText><font size=3D2 face=3D"Courier New"><span =
style=3D'font-size:
10.0pt'>interface at:<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=3DMsoPlainText><font size=3D2 face=3D"Courier New"><span =
style=3D'font-size:
10.0pt'> =
http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html<o:p></o:p></span></font></p=
>
<p class=3DMsoPlainText><font size=3D2 face=3D"Courier New"><span =
style=3D'font-size:
10.0pt'>and select "Join or leave the =
list"<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=3DMsoPlainText><font size=3D2 face=3D"Courier New"><span =
style=3D'font-size:
10.0pt'><o:p> </o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=3DMsoPlainText><font size=3D2 face=3D"Courier New"><span =
style=3D'font-size:
10.0pt'>Visit ATEG's web site at =
http://ateg.org/<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=3DMsoPlainText><font size=3D2 face=3D"Courier New"><span =
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>
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------_=_NextPart_001_01C89B1D.D11E5D22--
-----------------------------
Date: Thu, 10 Apr 2008 11:20:27 -0400
From: "STAHLKE, HERBERT F" <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Re: Odd sentence
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Dick,
=20
But isn't "she" subject of "were" here, with SVI? While this is a
conditional use of "were," the structure is analogous to "She was to
leave."
=20
Herb
=20
From: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar
[mailto:[log in to unmask]] On Behalf Of Veit, Richard
Sent: 2008-04-10 11:16
To: [log in to unmask]
Subject: Re: Odd sentence
=20
Herb,
=20
The following would seem to be an exception to the claim that the actor
of a nonfinite verb is never nominative:
=20
Were she to leave, everyone would panic.
=20
Dick
=20
________________________________
=20
Richard Veit
Department of English
University of North Carolina Wilmington
=20
=20
-----Original Message-----
From: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar
[mailto:[log in to unmask]] On Behalf Of STAHLKE, HERBERT F
Sent: Wednesday, April 09, 2008 9:38 PM
To: [log in to unmask]
Subject: Re: Odd sentence
=20
I think an argument for that the subjunctive with "suggest" is a finite
clause is that it takes a nominative subject pronoun. Nonfinite clauses
take objective case or, with -ing forms, objective or genitive.
=20
I suggest that she leave earlier.
I encouraged her to leave earlier.
I was surprised at her/him/his leaving early.
=20
Herb
=20
-----Original Message-----
From: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar
[mailto:[log in to unmask]] On Behalf Of Spruiell, William C
Sent: 2008-04-09 18:56
To: [log in to unmask]
Subject: Re: Odd sentence
=20
I'd treat that as a subjunctive -- there's the "If I were president"
type, and the "I suggested she be hired" type, and this looks like a
version of the latter, albeit in a nominal that-clause. That's actually
dodging your question a bit, though. For the first type of subjunctive,
one can argue for finiteness on the basis of the fact that the
subjunctive form can occur before the verb, and that kind of "inversion"
is characteristic of finite forms (but auxiliaries, in non-subjunctive
examples). Instead of "If I were president..." one can opt for the
hyperformal "Were I president..." variant.=20
=20
I can't think of anything similar one can do with the suggest-type
subjunctive that would prove it's finite, unless you're willing to
accept the claim that its presence in a nominal that-clause is
sufficient proof of finiteness. That feels a bit circular, somehow -- it
rests on the assumption that a non-finite that-clause is impossible,
when someone could simply argue that this is an example of just such a
thing.
=20
Bill Spruiell
=20
=20
-----Original Message-----
From: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar
[mailto:[log in to unmask]] On Behalf Of Castilleja, Janet
Sent: Wednesday, April 09, 2008 5:49 PM
To: [log in to unmask]
Subject: Odd sentence
=20
Hi
=20
What do you folks make of this sentence? Is the clause that begins
'that the Greek colonies..." finite or non-finite? I think it is
non-finite, but I'm wavering a little.=20
=20
=20
When they reached the coast of Asia Minor, they insisted that the
Greek colonies of Lydia recognize the Persian Kings as their over- Lords
and pay them a stipulated tax.
=20
Thanks
=20
Janet Castilleja
Heritage University
=20
To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web
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=20
Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/
=20
To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web
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=20
Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/
=20
To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web
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=20
Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/
To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web
interface at: http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html and select
"Join or leave the list"=20
Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/=20
To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web interface
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<div class=3DSection1>
<p class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";
color:#1F497D'>Dick,<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";
color:#1F497D'><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";
color:#1F497D'>But isn’t “she” subject of =
“were” here, with SVI? While this is
a conditional use of “were,” the structure is analogous to =
“She was to leave.”<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";
color:#1F497D'><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";
color:#1F497D'>Herb<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";
color:#1F497D'><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<div>
<div style=3D'border:none;border-top:solid #B5C4DF 1.0pt;padding:3.0pt =
0in 0in 0in'>
<p class=3DMsoNormal><b><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"'>From:</span>=
</b><span
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"'> Assembly =
for the
Teaching of English Grammar [mailto:[log in to unmask]] <b>On =
Behalf Of </b>Veit,
Richard<br>
<b>Sent:</b> 2008-04-10 11:16<br>
<b>To:</b> [log in to unmask]<br>
<b>Subject:</b> Re: Odd sentence<o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
</div>
<p class=3DMsoNormal><o:p> </o:p></p>
<p class=3DMsoPlainText><span =
style=3D'font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";color:#003366'>Herb,<o:p></o:p>=
</span></p>
<p class=3DMsoPlainText><span =
style=3D'font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";color:#003366'><o:p> </o:p=
></span></p>
<p class=3DMsoPlainText><span =
style=3D'font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";color:#003366'>The
following would seem to be an exception to the claim that the actor of a
nonfinite verb is never nominative:<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3DMsoPlainText><span =
style=3D'font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";color:#003366'><o:p> </o:p=
></span></p>
<p class=3DMsoPlainText><span =
style=3D'font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";color:#003366'> &nbs=
p;
Were she to leave, everyone would panic.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3DMsoPlainText><span =
style=3D'font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";color:#003366'><o:p> </o:p=
></span></p>
<p class=3DMsoPlainText><span =
style=3D'font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";color:#003366'>Dick<o:p></o:p><=
/span></p>
<p class=3DMsoPlainText><span =
style=3D'font-family:"Arial","sans-serif"'><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class=3DMsoPlainText><span =
style=3D'font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";color:teal'>___________________=
_____________<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3DMsoPlainText><span =
style=3D'font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";color:teal'><o:p> </o:p></=
span></p>
<p class=3DMsoPlainText><span =
style=3D'font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";color:teal'>Richard
Veit<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3DMsoPlainText><span =
style=3D'font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";color:teal'>Department
of English<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3DMsoPlainText><span =
style=3D'font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";color:teal'>University
of North Carolina Wilmington<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3DMsoPlainText><o:p> </o:p></p>
<p class=3DMsoPlainText><o:p> </o:p></p>
<p class=3DMsoPlainText>-----Original Message-----<br>
From: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar
[mailto:[log in to unmask]] On Behalf Of STAHLKE, HERBERT F<br>
Sent: Wednesday, April 09, 2008 9:38 PM<br>
To: [log in to unmask]<br>
Subject: Re: Odd sentence<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3DMsoPlainText><o:p> </o:p></p>
<p class=3DMsoPlainText>I think an argument for that the subjunctive =
with
"suggest" is a finite<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3DMsoPlainText>clause is that it takes a nominative subject
pronoun. Nonfinite clauses<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3DMsoPlainText>take objective case or, with -ing forms, =
objective or
genitive.<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3DMsoPlainText><o:p> </o:p></p>
<p class=3DMsoPlainText>I suggest that she leave earlier.<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3DMsoPlainText>I encouraged her to leave =
earlier.<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3DMsoPlainText>I was surprised at her/him/his leaving =
early.<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3DMsoPlainText><o:p> </o:p></p>
<p class=3DMsoPlainText>Herb<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3DMsoPlainText><o:p> </o:p></p>
<p class=3DMsoPlainText>-----Original Message-----<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3DMsoPlainText>From: Assembly for the Teaching of English =
Grammar<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3DMsoPlainText>[mailto:[log in to unmask]] On Behalf Of =
Spruiell,
William C<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3DMsoPlainText>Sent: 2008-04-09 18:56<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3DMsoPlainText>To: [log in to unmask]<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3DMsoPlainText>Subject: Re: Odd sentence<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3DMsoPlainText><o:p> </o:p></p>
<p class=3DMsoPlainText>I'd treat that as a subjunctive -- there's the =
"If I
were president"<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3DMsoPlainText>type, and the "I suggested she be =
hired" type,
and this looks like a<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3DMsoPlainText>version of the latter, albeit in a nominal =
that-clause.
That's actually<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3DMsoPlainText>dodging your question a bit, though. For the =
first type
of subjunctive,<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3DMsoPlainText>one can argue for finiteness on the basis of the =
fact
that the<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3DMsoPlainText>subjunctive form can occur before the verb, and =
that kind
of "inversion"<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3DMsoPlainText>is characteristic of finite forms (but =
auxiliaries, in
non-subjunctive<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3DMsoPlainText>examples). Instead of "If I were =
president..."
one can opt for the<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3DMsoPlainText>hyperformal "Were I president..." =
variant. <o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3DMsoPlainText><o:p> </o:p></p>
<p class=3DMsoPlainText>I can't think of anything similar one can do =
with the
suggest-type<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3DMsoPlainText>subjunctive that would prove it's finite, unless =
you're
willing to<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3DMsoPlainText>accept the claim that its presence in a nominal
that-clause is<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3DMsoPlainText>sufficient proof of finiteness. That feels a bit
circular, somehow -- it<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3DMsoPlainText>rests on the assumption that a non-finite =
that-clause is
impossible,<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3DMsoPlainText>when someone could simply argue that this is an =
example
of just such a<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3DMsoPlainText>thing.<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3DMsoPlainText><o:p> </o:p></p>
<p class=3DMsoPlainText>Bill Spruiell<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3DMsoPlainText><o:p> </o:p></p>
<p class=3DMsoPlainText><o:p> </o:p></p>
<p class=3DMsoPlainText>-----Original Message-----<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3DMsoPlainText>From: Assembly for the Teaching of English =
Grammar<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3DMsoPlainText>[mailto:[log in to unmask]] On Behalf Of
Castilleja, Janet<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3DMsoPlainText>Sent: Wednesday, April 09, 2008 5:49 =
PM<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3DMsoPlainText>To: [log in to unmask]<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3DMsoPlainText>Subject: Odd sentence<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3DMsoPlainText><o:p> </o:p></p>
<p class=3DMsoPlainText>Hi<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3DMsoPlainText> <o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3DMsoPlainText>What do you folks make of this sentence? =
Is the
clause that begins<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3DMsoPlainText>'that the Greek colonies..." finite or
non-finite? I think it is<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3DMsoPlainText>non-finite, but I'm wavering a little. =
<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3DMsoPlainText> <o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3DMsoPlainText> <o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3DMsoPlainText>When they reached the coast of Asia =
Minor,
they insisted that the<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3DMsoPlainText>Greek colonies of Lydia recognize the Persian =
Kings as
their over- Lords<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3DMsoPlainText>and pay them a stipulated tax.<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3DMsoPlainText> <o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3DMsoPlainText>Thanks<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3DMsoPlainText> <o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3DMsoPlainText>Janet Castilleja<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3DMsoPlainText>Heritage University<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3DMsoPlainText><o:p> </o:p></p>
<p class=3DMsoPlainText>To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please =
visit the
list's web<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3DMsoPlainText>interface at:<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3DMsoPlainText>
http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3DMsoPlainText>and select "Join or leave the =
list"<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3DMsoPlainText><o:p> </o:p></p>
<p class=3DMsoPlainText>Visit ATEG's web site at =
http://ateg.org/<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3DMsoPlainText><o:p> </o:p></p>
<p class=3DMsoPlainText>To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please =
visit the
list's web<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3DMsoPlainText>interface at:<o:p></o:p></p>
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http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3DMsoPlainText>and select "Join or leave the =
list"<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3DMsoPlainText><o:p> </o:p></p>
<p class=3DMsoPlainText>Visit ATEG's web site at =
http://ateg.org/<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3DMsoPlainText><o:p> </o:p></p>
<p class=3DMsoPlainText>To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please =
visit the
list's web interface at:<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3DMsoPlainText> =
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<p class=3DMsoPlainText>and select "Join or leave the =
list"<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3DMsoPlainText><o:p> </o:p></p>
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http://ateg.org/<o:p></o:p></p>
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------_=_NextPart_001_01C89B1E.6C6D5537--
-----------------------------
Date: Thu, 10 Apr 2008 11:41:10 -0400
From: "Veit, Richard" <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Re: Odd sentence
This is a multi-part message in MIME format.
------_=_NextPart_001_01C89B21.45E265EC
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Herb,
=20
Right you are. "She" is clearly the subject of "were" in "Were she
wise,..." and "If she were to leave,..." Presumably the underlying form
of "Were she to leave" is approximately "[She were [she leave]]" with
the second "she" deleted and the subject and verb inverted.
=20
Obviously my attempt to sneak that one past you failed.
=20
Dick
________________________________
Richard Veit
Department of English
University of North Carolina Wilmington
________________________________
From: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar
[mailto:[log in to unmask]] On Behalf Of STAHLKE, HERBERT F
Sent: Thursday, April 10, 2008 11:20 AM
To: [log in to unmask]
Subject: Re: Odd sentence
=20
Dick,
=20
But isn't "she" subject of "were" here, with SVI? While this is a
conditional use of "were," the structure is analogous to "She was to
leave."
=20
Herb
=20
From: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar
[mailto:[log in to unmask]] On Behalf Of Veit, Richard
Sent: 2008-04-10 11:16
To: [log in to unmask]
Subject: Re: Odd sentence
=20
Herb,
=20
The following would seem to be an exception to the claim that the actor
of a nonfinite verb is never nominative:
=20
Were she to leave, everyone would panic.
=20
Dick
=20
________________________________
=20
Richard Veit
Department of English
University of North Carolina Wilmington
=20
=20
-----Original Message-----
From: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar
[mailto:[log in to unmask]] On Behalf Of STAHLKE, HERBERT F
Sent: Wednesday, April 09, 2008 9:38 PM
To: [log in to unmask]
Subject: Re: Odd sentence
=20
I think an argument for that the subjunctive with "suggest" is a finite
clause is that it takes a nominative subject pronoun. Nonfinite clauses
take objective case or, with -ing forms, objective or genitive.
=20
I suggest that she leave earlier.
I encouraged her to leave earlier.
I was surprised at her/him/his leaving early.
=20
Herb
=20
-----Original Message-----
From: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar
[mailto:[log in to unmask]] On Behalf Of Spruiell, William C
Sent: 2008-04-09 18:56
To: [log in to unmask]
Subject: Re: Odd sentence
=20
I'd treat that as a subjunctive -- there's the "If I were president"
type, and the "I suggested she be hired" type, and this looks like a
version of the latter, albeit in a nominal that-clause. That's actually
dodging your question a bit, though. For the first type of subjunctive,
one can argue for finiteness on the basis of the fact that the
subjunctive form can occur before the verb, and that kind of "inversion"
is characteristic of finite forms (but auxiliaries, in non-subjunctive
examples). Instead of "If I were president..." one can opt for the
hyperformal "Were I president..." variant.=20
=20
I can't think of anything similar one can do with the suggest-type
subjunctive that would prove it's finite, unless you're willing to
accept the claim that its presence in a nominal that-clause is
sufficient proof of finiteness. That feels a bit circular, somehow -- it
rests on the assumption that a non-finite that-clause is impossible,
when someone could simply argue that this is an example of just such a
thing.
=20
Bill Spruiell
=20
=20
-----Original Message-----
From: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar
[mailto:[log in to unmask]] On Behalf Of Castilleja, Janet
Sent: Wednesday, April 09, 2008 5:49 PM
To: [log in to unmask]
Subject: Odd sentence
=20
Hi
=20
What do you folks make of this sentence? Is the clause that begins
'that the Greek colonies..." finite or non-finite? I think it is
non-finite, but I'm wavering a little.=20
=20
=20
When they reached the coast of Asia Minor, they insisted that the
Greek colonies of Lydia recognize the Persian Kings as their over- Lords
and pay them a stipulated tax.
=20
Thanks
=20
Janet Castilleja
Heritage University
=20
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=20
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<div class=3DSection1>
<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D2 color=3Dnavy face=3DArial><span =
style=3D'font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy'>Herb,<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D2 color=3Dnavy face=3DArial><span =
style=3D'font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy'><o:p> </o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D2 color=3Dnavy face=3DArial><span =
style=3D'font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy'>Right you are. “She” is
clearly the subject of “were” in “Were she =
wise,…”
and “If she were to leave,…” Presumably the underlying =
form
of “Were she to leave” is approximately “[She were =
[she
leave]]” with the second “she” deleted and the subject =
and verb
inverted.<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D2 color=3Dnavy face=3DArial><span =
style=3D'font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy'><o:p> </o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D2 color=3Dnavy face=3DArial><span =
style=3D'font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy'>Obviously my attempt to sneak that =
one
past you failed.<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D2 color=3Dnavy face=3DArial><span =
style=3D'font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy'><o:p> </o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D2 color=3Dnavy face=3DArial><span =
style=3D'font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy'>Dick<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<div>
<p class=3DMsoNormal =
style=3D'mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><font
size=3D2 color=3Dteal face=3DArial><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Arial;
color:teal'>________________________________</span></font><font =
color=3Dnavy><span
style=3D'color:navy'><o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=3DMsoNormal =
style=3D'mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><font
size=3D2 color=3Dteal face=3DArial><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Arial;
color:teal'>Richard Veit<br>
Department of English<br>
</span></font><font size=3D2 face=3DArial><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:
Arial'><ns0:PlaceType w:insAuthor=3D"UNCW" =
w:insDate=3D"2008-04-10T11:33:00Z"
w:endInsAuthor=3D"UNCW" =
w:endInsDate=3D"2008-04-10T11:33:00Z"><st1:PlaceType
w:st=3D"on"><font color=3Dteal><span =
style=3D'color:teal'>University</span></font></st1:PlaceType></ns0:PlaceT=
ype><font
color=3Dteal><span style=3D'color:teal'> of </span></font><ns0:PlaceName
w:insAuthor=3D"UNCW" w:insDate=3D"2008-04-10T11:33:00Z" =
w:endInsAuthor=3D"UNCW"
w:endInsDate=3D"2008-04-10T11:33:00Z"><st1:PlaceName w:st=3D"on"><font =
color=3Dteal><span
style=3D'color:teal'>North =
Carolina</span></font></st1:PlaceName></ns0:PlaceName><font
color=3Dteal><span style=3D'color:teal'> </span></font><ns0:City =
w:insAuthor=3D"UNCW"
w:insDate=3D"2008-04-10T11:33:00Z" w:endInsAuthor=3D"UNCW"
w:endInsDate=3D"2008-04-10T11:33:00Z"><ns0:place w:insAuthor=3D"UNCW"
w:insDate=3D"2008-04-10T11:33:00Z" w:endInsAuthor=3D"UNCW"
w:endInsDate=3D"2008-04-10T11:33:00Z"><st1:City w:st=3D"on"><st1:place =
w:st=3D"on"><font
color=3Dteal><span =
style=3D'color:teal'>Wilmington</span></font></st1:place></st1:City></ns0=
:place></ns0:City></span></font><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<div class=3DMsoNormal align=3Dcenter style=3D'text-align:center'><font =
size=3D3
face=3D"Times New Roman"><span style=3D'font-size:12.0pt'>
<hr size=3D2 width=3D"100%" align=3Dcenter tabindex=3D-1>
</span></font></div>
<p class=3DMsoNormal><b><font size=3D2 face=3DTahoma><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;
font-family:Tahoma;font-weight:bold'>From:</span></font></b><font =
size=3D2
face=3DTahoma><span style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Tahoma'> =
Assembly for the
Teaching of English Grammar [mailto:[log in to unmask]] <b><span
style=3D'font-weight:bold'>On Behalf Of </span></b>STAHLKE, HERBERT =
F<br>
<b><span style=3D'font-weight:bold'>Sent:</span></b> Thursday, April 10, =
2008
11:20 AM<br>
<b><span style=3D'font-weight:bold'>To:</span></b> =
[log in to unmask]<br>
<b><span style=3D'font-weight:bold'>Subject:</span></b> Re: Odd =
sentence</span></font><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D3 face=3D"Times New Roman"><span =
style=3D'font-size:
12.0pt'><o:p> </o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D2 color=3D"#1f497d" =
face=3DCalibri><span
style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:Calibri;color:#1F497D'>Dick,<o:p></=
o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D2 color=3D"#1f497d" =
face=3DCalibri><span
style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:Calibri;color:#1F497D'><o:p> <=
/o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D2 color=3D"#1f497d" =
face=3DCalibri><span
style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:Calibri;color:#1F497D'>But =
isn’t
“she” subject of “were” here, with SVI? =
While
this is a conditional use of “were,” the structure is =
analogous to
“She was to leave.”<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D2 color=3D"#1f497d" =
face=3DCalibri><span
style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:Calibri;color:#1F497D'><o:p> <=
/o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D2 color=3D"#1f497d" =
face=3DCalibri><span
style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:Calibri;color:#1F497D'>Herb<o:p></o=
:p></span></font></p>
<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D2 color=3D"#1f497d" =
face=3DCalibri><span
style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:Calibri;color:#1F497D'><o:p> <=
/o:p></span></font></p>
<div>
<div style=3D'border:none;border-top:solid #B5C4DF 1.0pt;padding:3.0pt =
0in 0in 0in'>
<p class=3DMsoNormal><b><font size=3D2 face=3DTahoma><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;
font-family:Tahoma;font-weight:bold'>From:</span></font></b><font =
size=3D2
face=3DTahoma><span style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Tahoma'> =
Assembly for the
Teaching of English Grammar [mailto:[log in to unmask]] <b><span
style=3D'font-weight:bold'>On Behalf Of </span></b>Veit, Richard<br>
<b><span style=3D'font-weight:bold'>Sent:</span></b> 2008-04-10 =
11:16<br>
<b><span style=3D'font-weight:bold'>To:</span></b> =
[log in to unmask]<br>
<b><span style=3D'font-weight:bold'>Subject:</span></b> Re: Odd =
sentence<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
</div>
</div>
<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D3 face=3D"Times New Roman"><span =
style=3D'font-size:
12.0pt'><o:p> </o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=3DMsoPlainText><font size=3D2 color=3D"#003366" =
face=3DArial><span
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:#003366'>Herb,<o:p></o:=
p></span></font></p>
<p class=3DMsoPlainText><font size=3D2 color=3D"#003366" =
face=3DArial><span
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:#003366'><o:p> </o=
:p></span></font></p>
<p class=3DMsoPlainText><font size=3D2 color=3D"#003366" =
face=3DArial><span
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:#003366'>The following =
would
seem to be an exception to the claim that the actor of a nonfinite verb =
is
never nominative:<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=3DMsoPlainText><font size=3D2 color=3D"#003366" =
face=3DArial><span
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:#003366'><o:p> </o=
:p></span></font></p>
<p class=3DMsoPlainText><font size=3D2 color=3D"#003366" =
face=3DArial><span
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:#003366'> &n=
bsp;
Were she to leave, everyone would panic.<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=3DMsoPlainText><font size=3D2 color=3D"#003366" =
face=3DArial><span
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:#003366'><o:p> </o=
:p></span></font></p>
<p class=3DMsoPlainText><font size=3D2 color=3D"#003366" =
face=3DArial><span
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:#003366'>Dick<o:p></o:p=
></span></font></p>
<p class=3DMsoPlainText><font size=3D2 face=3DArial><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;
font-family:Arial'><o:p> </o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=3DMsoPlainText><font size=3D2 color=3Dteal face=3DArial><span
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:teal'>_________________=
_______________<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=3DMsoPlainText><font size=3D2 color=3Dteal face=3DArial><span
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:teal'><o:p> </o:p>=
</span></font></p>
<p class=3DMsoPlainText><font size=3D2 color=3Dteal face=3DArial><span
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:teal'>Richard =
Veit<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=3DMsoPlainText><font size=3D2 color=3Dteal face=3DArial><span
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:teal'>Department of =
English<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=3DMsoPlainText><st1:PlaceType w:st=3D"on"><font size=3D2 =
color=3Dteal
face=3DArial><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:teal'>University</span>=
</font></st1:PlaceType><font
color=3Dteal face=3DArial><span style=3D'font-family:Arial;color:teal'> =
of <st1:PlaceName
w:st=3D"on">North Carolina</st1:PlaceName> <st1:City =
w:st=3D"on"><st1:place =
w:st=3D"on">Wilmington</st1:place></st1:City><o:p></o:p></span></font></p=
>
<p class=3DMsoPlainText><font size=3D2 face=3D"Courier New"><span =
style=3D'font-size:
10.0pt'><o:p> </o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=3DMsoPlainText><font size=3D2 face=3D"Courier New"><span =
style=3D'font-size:
10.0pt'><o:p> </o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=3DMsoPlainText><font size=3D2 face=3D"Courier New"><span =
style=3D'font-size:
10.0pt'>-----Original Message-----<br>
From: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar
[mailto:[log in to unmask]] On Behalf Of STAHLKE, HERBERT F<br>
Sent: Wednesday, April 09, 2008 9:38 PM<br>
To: [log in to unmask]<br>
Subject: Re: Odd sentence<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=3DMsoPlainText><font size=3D2 face=3D"Courier New"><span =
style=3D'font-size:
10.0pt'><o:p> </o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=3DMsoPlainText><font size=3D2 face=3D"Courier New"><span =
style=3D'font-size:
10.0pt'>I think an argument for that the subjunctive with =
"suggest"
is a finite<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=3DMsoPlainText><font size=3D2 face=3D"Courier New"><span =
style=3D'font-size:
10.0pt'>clause is that it takes a nominative subject pronoun. =
Nonfinite
clauses<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=3DMsoPlainText><font size=3D2 face=3D"Courier New"><span =
style=3D'font-size:
10.0pt'>take objective case or, with -ing forms, objective or =
genitive.<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=3DMsoPlainText><font size=3D2 face=3D"Courier New"><span =
style=3D'font-size:
10.0pt'><o:p> </o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=3DMsoPlainText><font size=3D2 face=3D"Courier New"><span =
style=3D'font-size:
10.0pt'>I suggest that she leave earlier.<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=3DMsoPlainText><font size=3D2 face=3D"Courier New"><span =
style=3D'font-size:
10.0pt'>I encouraged her to leave earlier.<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=3DMsoPlainText><font size=3D2 face=3D"Courier New"><span =
style=3D'font-size:
10.0pt'>I was surprised at her/him/his leaving =
early.<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=3DMsoPlainText><font size=3D2 face=3D"Courier New"><span =
style=3D'font-size:
10.0pt'><o:p> </o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=3DMsoPlainText><font size=3D2 face=3D"Courier New"><span =
style=3D'font-size:
10.0pt'>Herb<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=3DMsoPlainText><font size=3D2 face=3D"Courier New"><span =
style=3D'font-size:
10.0pt'><o:p> </o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=3DMsoPlainText><font size=3D2 face=3D"Courier New"><span =
style=3D'font-size:
10.0pt'>-----Original Message-----<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=3DMsoPlainText><font size=3D2 face=3D"Courier New"><span =
style=3D'font-size:
10.0pt'>From: Assembly for the Teaching of English =
Grammar<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=3DMsoPlainText><font size=3D2 face=3D"Courier New"><span =
style=3D'font-size:
10.0pt'>[mailto:[log in to unmask]] On Behalf Of Spruiell, William =
C<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=3DMsoPlainText><font size=3D2 face=3D"Courier New"><span =
style=3D'font-size:
10.0pt'>Sent: 2008-04-09 18:56<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=3DMsoPlainText><font size=3D2 face=3D"Courier New"><span =
style=3D'font-size:
10.0pt'>To: [log in to unmask]<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=3DMsoPlainText><font size=3D2 face=3D"Courier New"><span =
style=3D'font-size:
10.0pt'>Subject: Re: Odd sentence<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=3DMsoPlainText><font size=3D2 face=3D"Courier New"><span =
style=3D'font-size:
10.0pt'><o:p> </o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=3DMsoPlainText><font size=3D2 face=3D"Courier New"><span =
style=3D'font-size:
10.0pt'>I'd treat that as a subjunctive -- there's the "If I were
president"<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=3DMsoPlainText><font size=3D2 face=3D"Courier New"><span =
style=3D'font-size:
10.0pt'>type, and the "I suggested she be hired" type, and =
this looks
like a<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=3DMsoPlainText><font size=3D2 face=3D"Courier New"><span =
style=3D'font-size:
10.0pt'>version of the latter, albeit in a nominal that-clause. That's =
actually<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=3DMsoPlainText><font size=3D2 face=3D"Courier New"><span =
style=3D'font-size:
10.0pt'>dodging your question a bit, though. For the first type of =
subjunctive,<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=3DMsoPlainText><font size=3D2 face=3D"Courier New"><span =
style=3D'font-size:
10.0pt'>one can argue for finiteness on the basis of the fact that =
the<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=3DMsoPlainText><font size=3D2 face=3D"Courier New"><span =
style=3D'font-size:
10.0pt'>subjunctive form can occur before the verb, and that kind of
"inversion"<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=3DMsoPlainText><font size=3D2 face=3D"Courier New"><span =
style=3D'font-size:
10.0pt'>is characteristic of finite forms (but auxiliaries, in =
non-subjunctive<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=3DMsoPlainText><font size=3D2 face=3D"Courier New"><span =
style=3D'font-size:
10.0pt'>examples). Instead of "If I were president..." one can =
opt
for the<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=3DMsoPlainText><font size=3D2 face=3D"Courier New"><span =
style=3D'font-size:
10.0pt'>hyperformal "Were I president..." variant. =
<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=3DMsoPlainText><font size=3D2 face=3D"Courier New"><span =
style=3D'font-size:
10.0pt'><o:p> </o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=3DMsoPlainText><font size=3D2 face=3D"Courier New"><span =
style=3D'font-size:
10.0pt'>I can't think of anything similar one can do with the =
suggest-type<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=3DMsoPlainText><font size=3D2 face=3D"Courier New"><span =
style=3D'font-size:
10.0pt'>subjunctive that would prove it's finite, unless you're willing =
to<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=3DMsoPlainText><font size=3D2 face=3D"Courier New"><span =
style=3D'font-size:
10.0pt'>accept the claim that its presence in a nominal that-clause =
is<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=3DMsoPlainText><font size=3D2 face=3D"Courier New"><span =
style=3D'font-size:
10.0pt'>sufficient proof of finiteness. That feels a bit circular, =
somehow --
it<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=3DMsoPlainText><font size=3D2 face=3D"Courier New"><span =
style=3D'font-size:
10.0pt'>rests on the assumption that a non-finite that-clause is =
impossible,<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=3DMsoPlainText><font size=3D2 face=3D"Courier New"><span =
style=3D'font-size:
10.0pt'>when someone could simply argue that this is an example of just =
such a<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=3DMsoPlainText><font size=3D2 face=3D"Courier New"><span =
style=3D'font-size:
10.0pt'>thing.<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=3DMsoPlainText><font size=3D2 face=3D"Courier New"><span =
style=3D'font-size:
10.0pt'><o:p> </o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=3DMsoPlainText><font size=3D2 face=3D"Courier New"><span =
style=3D'font-size:
10.0pt'>Bill Spruiell<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=3DMsoPlainText><font size=3D2 face=3D"Courier New"><span =
style=3D'font-size:
10.0pt'><o:p> </o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=3DMsoPlainText><font size=3D2 face=3D"Courier New"><span =
style=3D'font-size:
10.0pt'><o:p> </o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=3DMsoPlainText><font size=3D2 face=3D"Courier New"><span =
style=3D'font-size:
10.0pt'>-----Original Message-----<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=3DMsoPlainText><font size=3D2 face=3D"Courier New"><span =
style=3D'font-size:
10.0pt'>From: Assembly for the Teaching of English =
Grammar<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=3DMsoPlainText><font size=3D2 face=3D"Courier New"><span =
style=3D'font-size:
10.0pt'>[mailto:[log in to unmask]] On Behalf Of Castilleja, =
Janet<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=3DMsoPlainText><font size=3D2 face=3D"Courier New"><span =
style=3D'font-size:
10.0pt'>Sent: Wednesday, April 09, 2008 5:49 =
PM<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=3DMsoPlainText><font size=3D2 face=3D"Courier New"><span =
style=3D'font-size:
10.0pt'>To: [log in to unmask]<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=3DMsoPlainText><font size=3D2 face=3D"Courier New"><span =
style=3D'font-size:
10.0pt'>Subject: Odd sentence<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=3DMsoPlainText><font size=3D2 face=3D"Courier New"><span =
style=3D'font-size:
10.0pt'><o:p> </o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=3DMsoPlainText><font size=3D2 face=3D"Courier New"><span =
style=3D'font-size:
10.0pt'>Hi<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=3DMsoPlainText><font size=3D2 face=3D"Courier New"><span =
style=3D'font-size:
10.0pt'> <o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=3DMsoPlainText><font size=3D2 face=3D"Courier New"><span =
style=3D'font-size:
10.0pt'>What do you folks make of this sentence? Is the clause =
that
begins<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=3DMsoPlainText><font size=3D2 face=3D"Courier New"><span =
style=3D'font-size:
10.0pt'>'that the Greek colonies..." finite or non-finite? I =
think
it is<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=3DMsoPlainText><font size=3D2 face=3D"Courier New"><span =
style=3D'font-size:
10.0pt'>non-finite, but I'm wavering a little. =
<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=3DMsoPlainText><font size=3D2 face=3D"Courier New"><span =
style=3D'font-size:
10.0pt'> <o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=3DMsoPlainText><font size=3D2 face=3D"Courier New"><span =
style=3D'font-size:
10.0pt'> <o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=3DMsoPlainText><font size=3D2 face=3D"Courier New"><span =
style=3D'font-size:
10.0pt'>When they reached the coast of <st1:place =
w:st=3D"on">Asia
Minor</st1:place>, they insisted that the<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=3DMsoPlainText><font size=3D2 face=3D"Courier New"><span =
style=3D'font-size:
10.0pt'>Greek colonies of <st1:country-region w:st=3D"on"><st1:place =
w:st=3D"on">Lydia</st1:place></st1:country-region>
recognize the Persian Kings as their over- =
Lords<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=3DMsoPlainText><font size=3D2 face=3D"Courier New"><span =
style=3D'font-size:
10.0pt'>and pay them a stipulated tax.<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=3DMsoPlainText><font size=3D2 face=3D"Courier New"><span =
style=3D'font-size:
10.0pt'> <o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=3DMsoPlainText><font size=3D2 face=3D"Courier New"><span =
style=3D'font-size:
10.0pt'>Thanks<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=3DMsoPlainText><font size=3D2 face=3D"Courier New"><span =
style=3D'font-size:
10.0pt'> <o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=3DMsoPlainText><font size=3D2 face=3D"Courier New"><span =
style=3D'font-size:
10.0pt'>Janet Castilleja<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=3DMsoPlainText><st1:place w:st=3D"on"><st1:PlaceName =
w:st=3D"on"><font
size=3D2 face=3D"Courier New"><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt'>Heritage</span></font></st1:PlaceName>
<st1:PlaceType =
w:st=3D"on">University</st1:PlaceType></st1:place><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3DMsoPlainText><font size=3D2 face=3D"Courier New"><span =
style=3D'font-size:
10.0pt'><o:p> </o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=3DMsoPlainText><font size=3D2 face=3D"Courier New"><span =
style=3D'font-size:
10.0pt'>To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's =
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style=3D'font-size:
10.0pt'>interface at:<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=3DMsoPlainText><font size=3D2 face=3D"Courier New"><span =
style=3D'font-size:
10.0pt'> =
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>
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<p class=3DMsoPlainText><font size=3D2 face=3D"Courier New"><span =
style=3D'font-size:
10.0pt'>Visit ATEG's web site at =
http://ateg.org/<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=3DMsoPlainText><font size=3D2 face=3D"Courier New"><span =
style=3D'font-size:
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10.0pt'>interface at:<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=3DMsoPlainText><font size=3D2 face=3D"Courier New"><span =
style=3D'font-size:
10.0pt'> =
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>
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style=3D'font-size:
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10.0pt'><o:p> </o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=3DMsoPlainText><font size=3D2 face=3D"Courier New"><span =
style=3D'font-size:
10.0pt'>Visit ATEG's web site at =
http://ateg.org/<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=3DMsoPlainText><font size=3D2 face=3D"Courier New"><span =
style=3D'font-size:
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>
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<p class=3DMsoPlainText><font size=3D2 face=3D"Courier New"><span =
style=3D'font-size:
10.0pt'>Visit ATEG's web site at =
http://ateg.org/<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
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------_=_NextPart_001_01C89B21.45E265EC--
-----------------------------
Date: Thu, 10 Apr 2008 12:00:16 -0400
From: Martha Kolln <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Clauses vs. phrases
Janet,
I think that your explanation of participle and infinite phrases as
non-finite clauses is clear, and I know that perhaps the majority of
linguists on our list agree with you. And, yes, because those verb
phrases are reduced clauses, we can call them clauses.
But I prefer to reserve "clause" for the traditional "subject +
predicate." First, the work that I do is mainly for students who are
applying their knowledge of sentence grammar to their own writing or
to the teaching of others. It's very practical to be able to define a
sentence and discuss its possibilities and its punctuation on the
basis of clauses--the subject + predicate kind. And it's very
useful to discuss all the possibilities for expanding sentences with
various kinds of phrases, both verb phrases and others, and various
dependent clauses.
I also have to dissent somewhat from the notion that "Running" in
your example doesn't make the grade as a clause because it has no
other "clause elements." But doesn't the fact that "run" is
intransitive and doesn't need any other elements to be a grammatical
sentence make a difference? The children are running. If your
example had been "Running regularly is good for you" or "Running
fast. . .", would that make a difference? And in your example "To
know him is to love him," isn't "to know him" also a non-finite
clause? So you would analyze that as three clauses, right?
For purposes of pedagogy--the kind of teaching that I think should be
going on in language arts classes of middle school and high school--I
think structural grammar is the logical choice.
Martha
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-----------------------------
Date: Thu, 10 Apr 2008 11:21:54 -0700
From: "Castilleja, Janet" <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Re: Clauses vs. phrases
I do think that 'To know him is to love him' consists of three clauses =
together, two nonfinite and the complete clause finite. In my other =
example, it would make a difference to my analysis if it were 'running =
regularly is good for you ' rather than 'running is good for you.' I =
would call the first a reduced clause. I analyze it in a way that =
participle phrases still exist, but I guess I could call them all =
clauses if the possibility of other clause elements is there.
=20
I actually only use the reduced clause explanation with my upper =
division students who are studying to be ESL or bilingual ed teachers. I =
do this so I can show them how independent clauses can be combined and =
where the elements of those embedded clauses come from. I also do it =
because it usually seems reasonably transparent to me. For number of =
years, we have taught a Quirk et al. based grammar in this class. =
However, I may have to change that. The students have to take a =
professional certification test that seems to expect them to know quite =
a bit of grammar, but much of it is discussed in a more traditional way, =
so now I find myself saying things like this: " But you might find this =
referred to as a participle phrase on the test or in the text books your =
district uses" and things like that. It's probably more confusing to =
try to get them to learn more than one name for structure.
=20
In my composition course, I stick to more traditional names for =
structures and use them to discuss linguistic possibilities. At my =
school, we use sentence combining in the developmental composition =
classes. I think students are more comfortable if they have a name for =
a structure, but I think a lot of grammar terminology just overwhelms =
them.
=20
Janet
________________________________
From: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar on behalf of Martha =
Kolln
Sent: Thu 4/10/2008 9:00 AM
To: [log in to unmask]
Subject: Clauses vs. phrases
Janet,
I think that your explanation of participle and infinite phrases as
non-finite clauses is clear, and I know that perhaps the majority of
linguists on our list agree with you. And, yes, because those verb
phrases are reduced clauses, we can call them clauses.
But I prefer to reserve "clause" for the traditional "subject +
predicate." First, the work that I do is mainly for students who are
applying their knowledge of sentence grammar to their own writing or
to the teaching of others. It's very practical to be able to define a
sentence and discuss its possibilities and its punctuation on the
basis of clauses--the subject + predicate kind. And it's very
useful to discuss all the possibilities for expanding sentences with
various kinds of phrases, both verb phrases and others, and various
dependent clauses.
I also have to dissent somewhat from the notion that "Running" in
your example doesn't make the grade as a clause because it has no
other "clause elements." But doesn't the fact that "run" is
intransitive and doesn't need any other elements to be a grammatical
sentence make a difference? The children are running. If your
example had been "Running regularly is good for you" or "Running
fast. . .", would that make a difference? And in your example "To
know him is to love him," isn't "to know him" also a non-finite
clause? So you would analyze that as three clauses, right?
For purposes of pedagogy--the kind of teaching that I think should be
going on in language arts classes of middle school and high school--I
think structural grammar is the logical choice.
Martha
To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web =
interface at:
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and select "Join or leave the list"
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-----------------------------
Date: Thu, 10 Apr 2008 15:24:42 -0400
From: Peter Adams <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Grammar Texts
--Apple-Mail-10--232467559
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charset=US-ASCII;
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I am thinking that it might be useful to some on this list to see a
list of texts that could be used in a credit grammar course. So I
thought I would get the list going with the texts I'm familiar with
and then ask others to add to the list. Please understand that I am
not necessarily recommending all of these, but I thought people might
find it useful to see what their options are. So here's a list of the
grammar texts I find on my shelf today:
Biber, Douglas, Susan Conrad, and Geoffrey Leech. Longman Student
Grammar of Spoken and Written English. Longman.
Greenbaum, Sidney. Oxford English Grammar. Oxford UP.
Greenbaum, Sidney, and Randolph Quirk. A Student's Grammar of the
English Language. Longman.
Hancock, Craig. Meaning-Centered Grammar: An Introductory Text.
Equinox.
Huddleston, Rodney, and Geoffrey K. Pullum. The Cambridge Grammar of
the English Language. Cambridge UP.
Kaplan, Jeffrey. English Grammar: Principles and Facts. Prentice Hall.
Klammer, Thomas P., Muriel R. Schulz, and Angela della Volpe.
Analyzing English Grammar. Pearson.
Kolln, Martha, and Robert Funk. Understanding English Grammar. Pearson.
Morenberg, Max. Doing Grammar. Oxford UP.
What have I overlooked?
Peter Adams
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--Apple-Mail-10--232467559
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Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
<html><body style=3D"word-wrap: break-word; -webkit-nbsp-mode: space;
-webki=
t-line-break: after-white-space; ">I am thinking that it might be useful
to=20=
some on this list to see a list of texts that could be used in a credit
gram=
mar course. So I thought I would get the list going with the texts
I'm=
familiar with and then ask others to add to the list. Please
understa=
nd that I am not necessarily recommending all of these, but I thought
people=
might find it useful to see what their options are. So here's a
list=20=
of the grammar texts I find on my shelf
today:<div><br></div><div><br></div>=
<div>Biber, Douglas, Susan Conrad, and Geoffrey Leech. <i>Longman
Stud=
ent Grammar of Spoken and Written English</i>.
Longman.</div><div><br>=
</div><div>Greenbaum, Sidney. <i>Oxford English Grammar</i>.
Oxf=
ord UP.</div><div><br></div><div>Greenbaum, Sidney, and Randolph Quirk.
&nbs=
p;<i>A Student's Grammar of the English Language</i>.
Longman.</div><d=
iv><br></div><div>Hancock, Craig. <i>Meaning-Centered Grammar: An
Intr=
oductory Text</i>. Equinox.</div><div><br></div><div>Huddleston,
Rodne=
y, and Geoffrey K. Pullum. <i>The Cambridge Grammar of the English
Lang=
uage</i>. Cambridge UP.</div><div><br></div><div>Kaplan, Jeffrey.
&nbs=
p;<i>English Grammar: Principles and Facts</i>. Prentice
Hall.</div><d=
iv><br></div><div>Klammer, Thomas P., Muriel R. Schulz, and Angela della
Vol=
pe. <i>Analyzing English Grammar</i>.
Pearson.</div><div><br></d=
iv><div>Kolln, Martha, and Robert Funk. <i>Understanding English
Gramm=
ar</i>. Pearson.</div><div><br></div><div>Morenberg, Max. <i>Doing
Gra=
mmar</i>. Oxford
UP.</div><div><br></div><div><br></div><div><br></div><div>=
What have I overlooked?</div><div><br></div><div>Peter
Adams</div></body></h=
tml>=3D
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--Apple-Mail-10--232467559--
-----------------------------
I consider a phrase to be a group of words functioning as a single part of
speech but lacking a subject and finite verb. That definition avoids
"exocentric constituents.
A clause contains a subject and a finite verb.
I met English professors at a regional MLA meeting some decades back and
discovered that we used almost identical definitions with a slight variation
in terminology. I reckon that the Commonwealth might have gone its own way.
I still have contacts with professors, students, and teachers from the
Commonwealth; however, we discuss onomastics to the exclusion of grammar.
Scott Catledge
Date: Thu, 10 Apr 2008 16:10:12 -0400
From: "Spruiell, William C" <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Re: Clauses vs. phrases
Until the early twentieth century, people who wrote grammar books tended
to use terms like "phrase" and "clause" rather unsystematically -- they
were descriptive labels, but not precisely defined ones. The way the
terms are used in U.S. K-12 education is the result of a consensus that
developed among educators on this side of the Atlantic, but it's not a
universal consensus. A good many Commonwealth grammarians (for example,
many in the Systemics approach, but certainly not limited to it), use
"group" for what most Statesiders would call a phrase (basically, any
phrase that all of us would view as endocentric is a "group," but an
arguably-exocentric constituent without a predicate is a "phrase," with
the prepositional phrase being the prime example). Similarly, the
requirement that a clause have a subject and finite verb is part of the
consensus that developed here, but not elsewhere.
Bill Spruiell
Dept. of English
Central Michigan University
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-----------------------------
Date: Thu, 10 Apr 2008 17:21:10 -0400
From: "Spruiell, William C" <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Than vs. other than
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=20
Someone asked me today whether one should use "I" or "me" after "other
than." Now, I know the standard answer for when you have just "than" -
fill in the words that you think are elided to get the right pronoun:
=20
John gave Mary more books than I [gave Mary].
John gave Mary more books than [he gave] me.
=20
But...I can't make ellipsis work with "other than":
=20
*Don't talk to anyone other than [you talk to] me.
=20
If I used "but" instead of "other than," I'd class that "but" as a
preposition - it seems to be introducing a noun phrase, not a clause
with elliptical bits -- so that's the route I went with "other than."
Does that seem reasonable? Garner's dictionary of usage had nothing on
that particular point.
=20
Thanks in advance -=20
=20
Bill Spruiell
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<p class=3DMsoNormal>Someone asked me today whether one should use =
“I”
or “me” after “other than.” Now, I know the =
standard
answer for when you have just “than” – fill in the =
words that
you think are elided to get the right pronoun:<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3DMsoNormal><o:p> </o:p></p>
<p =
class=3DMsoNormal> &=
nbsp; John
gave Mary more books than I [gave Mary].<o:p></o:p></p>
<p =
class=3DMsoNormal> &=
nbsp; John
gave Mary more books than [he gave] me.<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3DMsoNormal><o:p> </o:p></p>
<p class=3DMsoNormal>But…I can’t make ellipsis work with =
“other
than”:<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3DMsoNormal><o:p> </o:p></p>
<p =
class=3DMsoNormal> &=
nbsp; *Don’t
talk to anyone other than [you talk to] me.<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3DMsoNormal><o:p> </o:p></p>
<p class=3DMsoNormal>If I used “but” instead of “other =
than,”
I’d class that “but” as a preposition – it seems =
to be
introducing a noun phrase, not a clause with elliptical bits -- so =
that’s
the route I went with “other than.” Does that seem
reasonable? Garner’s dictionary of usage had nothing on that =
particular
point.<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3DMsoNormal><o:p> </o:p></p>
<p class=3DMsoNormal>Thanks in advance – <o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3DMsoNormal><o:p> </o:p></p>
<p class=3DMsoNormal>Bill Spruiell<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
</body>
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-----------------------------
Date: Thu, 10 Apr 2008 15:00:36 -0700
From: "Castilleja, Janet" <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Re: Odd sentence
Well, I should have looked this up is Quirk et al. in the first place
and saved everybody the trouble. They quite clearly explained that
'insist,' when the meaning is a command, is a verb that frequently
requires a that- clause in the mandative subjunctive form. I usually
treat the subjunctive as finite, although I don't know that it is,
quite.
Thanks to all!
Janet=20
-----Original Message-----
From: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar
[mailto:[log in to unmask]] On Behalf Of Spruiell, William C
Sent: Wednesday, April 09, 2008 3:56 PM
To: [log in to unmask]
Subject: Re: Odd sentence
I'd treat that as a subjunctive -- there's the "If I were president"
type, and the "I suggested she be hired" type, and this looks like a
version of the latter, albeit in a nominal that-clause. That's actually
dodging your question a bit, though. For the first type of subjunctive,
one can argue for finiteness on the basis of the fact that the
subjunctive form can occur before the verb, and that kind of "inversion"
is characteristic of finite forms (but auxiliaries, in non-subjunctive
examples). Instead of "If I were president..." one can opt for the
hyperformal "Were I president..." variant.=20
I can't think of anything similar one can do with the suggest-type
subjunctive that would prove it's finite, unless you're willing to
accept the claim that its presence in a nominal that-clause is
sufficient proof of finiteness. That feels a bit circular, somehow -- it
rests on the assumption that a non-finite that-clause is impossible,
when someone could simply argue that this is an example of just such a
thing.
Bill Spruiell
-----Original Message-----
From: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar
[mailto:[log in to unmask]] On Behalf Of Castilleja, Janet
Sent: Wednesday, April 09, 2008 5:49 PM
To: [log in to unmask]
Subject: Odd sentence
Hi
=20
What do you folks make of this sentence? Is the clause that begins
'that the Greek colonies..." finite or non-finite? I think it is
non-finite, but I'm wavering a little.=20
=20
=20
When they reached the coast of Asia Minor, they insisted that the
Greek colonies of Lydia recognize the Persian Kings as their over- Lords
and pay them a stipulated tax.
=20
Thanks
=20
Janet Castilleja
Heritage University
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-----------------------------
End of ATEG Digest - 9 Apr 2008 to 10 Apr 2008 (#2008-87)
*********************************************************
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------------------------------
Date: Fri, 11 Apr 2008 18:39:28 -0400
From: Scott <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Re: ATEG Digest - 9 Apr 2008 to 10 Apr 2008 (#2008-87)
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From: "Scott" <[log in to unmask]>
To: "'Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar'"
<[log in to unmask]>
References: <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: RE: ATEG Digest - 9 Apr 2008 to 10 Apr 2008 (#2008-87)
Date: Fri, 11 Apr 2008 18:39:28 -0400
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-----Original Message-----
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[mailto:[log in to unmask]] On Behalf Of ATEG automatic digest system
Sent: Friday, April 11, 2008 12:00 AM
To: [log in to unmask]
Subject: ATEG Digest - 9 Apr 2008 to 10 Apr 2008 (#2008-87)
There are 9 messages totalling 3128 lines in this issue.
Topics of the day:
1. Odd sentence (4)
2. Clauses vs. phrases (3)
3. Grammar Texts
4. Than vs. other than
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----------------------------------------------------------------------
She is the subject of 'were'--not 'to leave.'
Scott
Date: Thu, 10 Apr 2008 11:16:26 -0400
From: "Veit, Richard" <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Re: Odd sentence
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Herb,
=20
The following would seem to be an exception to the claim that the actor
of a nonfinite verb is never nominative:
=20
Were she to leave, everyone would panic.
=20
Dick
=20
________________________________
=20
Richard Veit
Department of English
University of North Carolina Wilmington
=20
=20
-----Original Message-----
From: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar
[mailto:[log in to unmask]] On Behalf Of STAHLKE, HERBERT F
Sent: Wednesday, April 09, 2008 9:38 PM
To: [log in to unmask]
Subject: Re: Odd sentence
=20
I think an argument for that the subjunctive with "suggest" is a finite
clause is that it takes a nominative subject pronoun. Nonfinite clauses
take objective case or, with -ing forms, objective or genitive.
=20
I suggest that she leave earlier.
I encouraged her to leave earlier.
I was surprised at her/him/his leaving early.
=20
Herb
=20
-----Original Message-----
From: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar
[mailto:[log in to unmask]] On Behalf Of Spruiell, William C
Sent: 2008-04-09 18:56
To: [log in to unmask]
Subject: Re: Odd sentence
=20
I'd treat that as a subjunctive -- there's the "If I were president"
type, and the "I suggested she be hired" type, and this looks like a
version of the latter, albeit in a nominal that-clause. That's actually
dodging your question a bit, though. For the first type of subjunctive,
one can argue for finiteness on the basis of the fact that the
subjunctive form can occur before the verb, and that kind of "inversion"
is characteristic of finite forms (but auxiliaries, in non-subjunctive
examples). Instead of "If I were president..." one can opt for the
hyperformal "Were I president..." variant.=20
=20
I can't think of anything similar one can do with the suggest-type
subjunctive that would prove it's finite, unless you're willing to
accept the claim that its presence in a nominal that-clause is
sufficient proof of finiteness. That feels a bit circular, somehow -- it
rests on the assumption that a non-finite that-clause is impossible,
when someone could simply argue that this is an example of just such a
thing.
=20
Bill Spruiell
=20
=20
-----Original Message-----
From: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar
[mailto:[log in to unmask]] On Behalf Of Castilleja, Janet
Sent: Wednesday, April 09, 2008 5:49 PM
To: [log in to unmask]
Subject: Odd sentence
=20
Hi
=20
What do you folks make of this sentence? Is the clause that begins
'that the Greek colonies..." finite or non-finite? I think it is
non-finite, but I'm wavering a little.=20
=20
=20
When they reached the coast of Asia Minor, they insisted that the
Greek colonies of Lydia recognize the Persian Kings as their over- Lords
and pay them a stipulated tax.
=20
Thanks
=20
Janet Castilleja
Heritage University
=20
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=20
Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/
=20
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=20
Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/
=20
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=20
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<p class=3DMsoPlainText><font size=3D2 color=3D"#003366" =
face=3DArial><span
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:#003366'>Herb,<o:p></o:=
p></span></font></p>
<p class=3DMsoPlainText><font size=3D2 color=3D"#003366" =
face=3DArial><span
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:#003366'><o:p> </o=
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<p class=3DMsoPlainText><font size=3D2 color=3D"#003366" =
face=3DArial><span
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:#003366'>The following =
would
seem to be an exception to the claim that the actor of a nonfinite verb =
is
never nominative:<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=3DMsoPlainText><font size=3D2 color=3D"#003366" =
face=3DArial><span
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:#003366'><o:p> </o=
:p></span></font></p>
<p class=3DMsoPlainText><font size=3D2 color=3D"#003366" =
face=3DArial><span
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:#003366'> &n=
bsp; Were
she to leave, everyone would panic.<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=3DMsoPlainText><font size=3D2 color=3D"#003366" =
face=3DArial><span
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:#003366'><o:p> </o=
:p></span></font></p>
<p class=3DMsoPlainText><font size=3D2 color=3D"#003366" =
face=3DArial><span
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:#003366'>Dick<o:p></o:p=
></span></font></p>
<p class=3DMsoPlainText><font size=3D2 face=3DArial><span =
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font-family:Arial'><o:p> </o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=3DMsoPlainText><font size=3D2 color=3Dteal face=3DArial><span
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:teal'>_________________=
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<p class=3DMsoPlainText><font size=3D2 color=3Dteal face=3DArial><span
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:teal'><o:p> </o:p>=
</span></font></p>
<p class=3DMsoPlainText><font size=3D2 color=3Dteal face=3DArial><span
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:teal'>Richard =
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<p class=3DMsoPlainText><font size=3D2 color=3Dteal face=3DArial><span
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:teal'>Department of =
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color=3Dteal
face=3DArial><span =
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</font></st1:PlaceType><font
color=3Dteal face=3DArial><span style=3D'font-family:Arial;color:teal'> =
of <st1:PlaceName
w:st=3D"on">North Carolina</st1:PlaceName> <st1:City =
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<p class=3DMsoPlainText><font size=3D2 face=3D"Courier New"><span =
style=3D'font-size:
10.0pt'>-----Original Message-----<br>
From: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar
[mailto:[log in to unmask]] On Behalf Of STAHLKE, HERBERT F<br>
Sent: Wednesday, April 09, 2008 9:38 PM<br>
To: [log in to unmask]<br>
Subject: Re: Odd sentence</span></font></p>
<p class=3DMsoPlainText><font size=3D2 face=3D"Courier New"><span =
style=3D'font-size:
10.0pt'><o:p> </o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=3DMsoPlainText><font size=3D2 face=3D"Courier New"><span =
style=3D'font-size:
10.0pt'>I think an argument for that the subjunctive with =
"suggest"
is a finite<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=3DMsoPlainText><font size=3D2 face=3D"Courier New"><span =
style=3D'font-size:
10.0pt'>clause is that it takes a nominative subject pronoun. =
Nonfinite
clauses<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=3DMsoPlainText><font size=3D2 face=3D"Courier New"><span =
style=3D'font-size:
10.0pt'>take objective case or, with -ing forms, objective or =
genitive.<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=3DMsoPlainText><font size=3D2 face=3D"Courier New"><span =
style=3D'font-size:
10.0pt'><o:p> </o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=3DMsoPlainText><font size=3D2 face=3D"Courier New"><span =
style=3D'font-size:
10.0pt'>I suggest that she leave earlier.<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=3DMsoPlainText><font size=3D2 face=3D"Courier New"><span =
style=3D'font-size:
10.0pt'>I encouraged her to leave earlier.<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=3DMsoPlainText><font size=3D2 face=3D"Courier New"><span =
style=3D'font-size:
10.0pt'>I was surprised at her/him/his leaving =
early.<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=3DMsoPlainText><font size=3D2 face=3D"Courier New"><span =
style=3D'font-size:
10.0pt'><o:p> </o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=3DMsoPlainText><font size=3D2 face=3D"Courier New"><span =
style=3D'font-size:
10.0pt'>Herb<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=3DMsoPlainText><font size=3D2 face=3D"Courier New"><span =
style=3D'font-size:
10.0pt'><o:p> </o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=3DMsoPlainText><font size=3D2 face=3D"Courier New"><span =
style=3D'font-size:
10.0pt'>-----Original Message-----<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=3DMsoPlainText><font size=3D2 face=3D"Courier New"><span =
style=3D'font-size:
10.0pt'>From: Assembly for the Teaching of English =
Grammar<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=3DMsoPlainText><font size=3D2 face=3D"Courier New"><span =
style=3D'font-size:
10.0pt'>[mailto:[log in to unmask]] On Behalf Of Spruiell, William =
C<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=3DMsoPlainText><font size=3D2 face=3D"Courier New"><span =
style=3D'font-size:
10.0pt'>Sent: 2008-04-09 18:56<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=3DMsoPlainText><font size=3D2 face=3D"Courier New"><span =
style=3D'font-size:
10.0pt'>To: [log in to unmask]<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=3DMsoPlainText><font size=3D2 face=3D"Courier New"><span =
style=3D'font-size:
10.0pt'>Subject: Re: Odd sentence<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=3DMsoPlainText><font size=3D2 face=3D"Courier New"><span =
style=3D'font-size:
10.0pt'><o:p> </o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=3DMsoPlainText><font size=3D2 face=3D"Courier New"><span =
style=3D'font-size:
10.0pt'>I'd treat that as a subjunctive -- there's the "If I were =
president"<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=3DMsoPlainText><font size=3D2 face=3D"Courier New"><span =
style=3D'font-size:
10.0pt'>type, and the "I suggested she be hired" type, and =
this looks
like a<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=3DMsoPlainText><font size=3D2 face=3D"Courier New"><span =
style=3D'font-size:
10.0pt'>version of the latter, albeit in a nominal that-clause. That's =
actually<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=3DMsoPlainText><font size=3D2 face=3D"Courier New"><span =
style=3D'font-size:
10.0pt'>dodging your question a bit, though. For the first type of =
subjunctive,<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=3DMsoPlainText><font size=3D2 face=3D"Courier New"><span =
style=3D'font-size:
10.0pt'>one can argue for finiteness on the basis of the fact that =
the<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=3DMsoPlainText><font size=3D2 face=3D"Courier New"><span =
style=3D'font-size:
10.0pt'>subjunctive form can occur before the verb, and that kind of
"inversion"<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=3DMsoPlainText><font size=3D2 face=3D"Courier New"><span =
style=3D'font-size:
10.0pt'>is characteristic of finite forms (but auxiliaries, in =
non-subjunctive<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=3DMsoPlainText><font size=3D2 face=3D"Courier New"><span =
style=3D'font-size:
10.0pt'>examples). Instead of "If I were president..." one can =
opt
for the<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=3DMsoPlainText><font size=3D2 face=3D"Courier New"><span =
style=3D'font-size:
10.0pt'>hyperformal "Were I president..." variant. =
<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=3DMsoPlainText><font size=3D2 face=3D"Courier New"><span =
style=3D'font-size:
10.0pt'><o:p> </o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=3DMsoPlainText><font size=3D2 face=3D"Courier New"><span =
style=3D'font-size:
10.0pt'>I can't think of anything similar one can do with the =
suggest-type<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=3DMsoPlainText><font size=3D2 face=3D"Courier New"><span =
style=3D'font-size:
10.0pt'>subjunctive that would prove it's finite, unless you're willing =
to<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=3DMsoPlainText><font size=3D2 face=3D"Courier New"><span =
style=3D'font-size:
10.0pt'>accept the claim that its presence in a nominal that-clause =
is<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=3DMsoPlainText><font size=3D2 face=3D"Courier New"><span =
style=3D'font-size:
10.0pt'>sufficient proof of finiteness. That feels a bit circular, =
somehow --
it<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=3DMsoPlainText><font size=3D2 face=3D"Courier New"><span =
style=3D'font-size:
10.0pt'>rests on the assumption that a non-finite that-clause is =
impossible,<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=3DMsoPlainText><font size=3D2 face=3D"Courier New"><span =
style=3D'font-size:
10.0pt'>when someone could simply argue that this is an example of just =
such a<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=3DMsoPlainText><font size=3D2 face=3D"Courier New"><span =
style=3D'font-size:
10.0pt'>thing.<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=3DMsoPlainText><font size=3D2 face=3D"Courier New"><span =
style=3D'font-size:
10.0pt'><o:p> </o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=3DMsoPlainText><font size=3D2 face=3D"Courier New"><span =
style=3D'font-size:
10.0pt'>Bill Spruiell<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=3DMsoPlainText><font size=3D2 face=3D"Courier New"><span =
style=3D'font-size:
10.0pt'><o:p> </o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=3DMsoPlainText><font size=3D2 face=3D"Courier New"><span =
style=3D'font-size:
10.0pt'><o:p> </o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=3DMsoPlainText><font size=3D2 face=3D"Courier New"><span =
style=3D'font-size:
10.0pt'>-----Original Message-----<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=3DMsoPlainText><font size=3D2 face=3D"Courier New"><span =
style=3D'font-size:
10.0pt'>From: Assembly for the Teaching of English =
Grammar<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=3DMsoPlainText><font size=3D2 face=3D"Courier New"><span =
style=3D'font-size:
10.0pt'>[mailto:[log in to unmask]] On Behalf Of Castilleja, =
Janet<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=3DMsoPlainText><font size=3D2 face=3D"Courier New"><span =
style=3D'font-size:
10.0pt'>Sent: Wednesday, April 09, 2008 5:49 =
PM<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=3DMsoPlainText><font size=3D2 face=3D"Courier New"><span =
style=3D'font-size:
10.0pt'>To: [log in to unmask]<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=3DMsoPlainText><font size=3D2 face=3D"Courier New"><span =
style=3D'font-size:
10.0pt'>Subject: Odd sentence<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=3DMsoPlainText><font size=3D2 face=3D"Courier New"><span =
style=3D'font-size:
10.0pt'><o:p> </o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=3DMsoPlainText><font size=3D2 face=3D"Courier New"><span =
style=3D'font-size:
10.0pt'>Hi<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=3DMsoPlainText><font size=3D2 face=3D"Courier New"><span =
style=3D'font-size:
10.0pt'> <o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=3DMsoPlainText><font size=3D2 face=3D"Courier New"><span =
style=3D'font-size:
10.0pt'>What do you folks make of this sentence? Is the clause =
that
begins<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=3DMsoPlainText><font size=3D2 face=3D"Courier New"><span =
style=3D'font-size:
10.0pt'>'that the Greek colonies..." finite or non-finite? I =
think
it is<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=3DMsoPlainText><font size=3D2 face=3D"Courier New"><span =
style=3D'font-size:
10.0pt'>non-finite, but I'm wavering a little. =
<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=3DMsoPlainText><font size=3D2 face=3D"Courier New"><span =
style=3D'font-size:
10.0pt'> <o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=3DMsoPlainText><font size=3D2 face=3D"Courier New"><span =
style=3D'font-size:
10.0pt'> <o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=3DMsoPlainText><font size=3D2 face=3D"Courier New"><span =
style=3D'font-size:
10.0pt'>When they reached the coast of <st1:place =
w:st=3D"on">Asia
Minor</st1:place>, they insisted that the<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=3DMsoPlainText><font size=3D2 face=3D"Courier New"><span =
style=3D'font-size:
10.0pt'>Greek colonies of <st1:country-region w:st=3D"on"><st1:place =
w:st=3D"on">Lydia</st1:place></st1:country-region>
recognize the Persian Kings as their over- =
Lords<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=3DMsoPlainText><font size=3D2 face=3D"Courier New"><span =
style=3D'font-size:
10.0pt'>and pay them a stipulated tax.<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=3DMsoPlainText><font size=3D2 face=3D"Courier New"><span =
style=3D'font-size:
10.0pt'> <o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=3DMsoPlainText><font size=3D2 face=3D"Courier New"><span =
style=3D'font-size:
10.0pt'>Thanks<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=3DMsoPlainText><font size=3D2 face=3D"Courier New"><span =
style=3D'font-size:
10.0pt'> <o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=3DMsoPlainText><font size=3D2 face=3D"Courier New"><span =
style=3D'font-size:
10.0pt'>Janet Castilleja<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=3DMsoPlainText><st1:place w:st=3D"on"><st1:PlaceName =
w:st=3D"on"><font
size=3D2 face=3D"Courier New"><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt'>Heritage</span></font></st1:PlaceName>
<st1:PlaceType =
w:st=3D"on">University</st1:PlaceType></st1:place><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3DMsoPlainText><font size=3D2 face=3D"Courier New"><span =
style=3D'font-size:
10.0pt'><o:p> </o:p></span></font></p>
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10.0pt'>interface at:<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
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------_=_NextPart_001_01C89B1D.D11E5D22--
-----------------------------
Date: Thu, 10 Apr 2008 11:20:27 -0400
From: "STAHLKE, HERBERT F" <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Re: Odd sentence
This is a multi-part message in MIME format.
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Dick,
=20
But isn't "she" subject of "were" here, with SVI? While this is a
conditional use of "were," the structure is analogous to "She was to
leave."
=20
Herb
=20
From: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar
[mailto:[log in to unmask]] On Behalf Of Veit, Richard
Sent: 2008-04-10 11:16
To: [log in to unmask]
Subject: Re: Odd sentence
=20
Herb,
=20
The following would seem to be an exception to the claim that the actor
of a nonfinite verb is never nominative:
=20
Were she to leave, everyone would panic.
=20
Dick
=20
________________________________
=20
Richard Veit
Department of English
University of North Carolina Wilmington
=20
=20
-----Original Message-----
From: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar
[mailto:[log in to unmask]] On Behalf Of STAHLKE, HERBERT F
Sent: Wednesday, April 09, 2008 9:38 PM
To: [log in to unmask]
Subject: Re: Odd sentence
=20
I think an argument for that the subjunctive with "suggest" is a finite
clause is that it takes a nominative subject pronoun. Nonfinite clauses
take objective case or, with -ing forms, objective or genitive.
=20
I suggest that she leave earlier.
I encouraged her to leave earlier.
I was surprised at her/him/his leaving early.
=20
Herb
=20
-----Original Message-----
From: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar
[mailto:[log in to unmask]] On Behalf Of Spruiell, William C
Sent: 2008-04-09 18:56
To: [log in to unmask]
Subject: Re: Odd sentence
=20
I'd treat that as a subjunctive -- there's the "If I were president"
type, and the "I suggested she be hired" type, and this looks like a
version of the latter, albeit in a nominal that-clause. That's actually
dodging your question a bit, though. For the first type of subjunctive,
one can argue for finiteness on the basis of the fact that the
subjunctive form can occur before the verb, and that kind of "inversion"
is characteristic of finite forms (but auxiliaries, in non-subjunctive
examples). Instead of "If I were president..." one can opt for the
hyperformal "Were I president..." variant.=20
=20
I can't think of anything similar one can do with the suggest-type
subjunctive that would prove it's finite, unless you're willing to
accept the claim that its presence in a nominal that-clause is
sufficient proof of finiteness. That feels a bit circular, somehow -- it
rests on the assumption that a non-finite that-clause is impossible,
when someone could simply argue that this is an example of just such a
thing.
=20
Bill Spruiell
=20
=20
-----Original Message-----
From: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar
[mailto:[log in to unmask]] On Behalf Of Castilleja, Janet
Sent: Wednesday, April 09, 2008 5:49 PM
To: [log in to unmask]
Subject: Odd sentence
=20
Hi
=20
What do you folks make of this sentence? Is the clause that begins
'that the Greek colonies..." finite or non-finite? I think it is
non-finite, but I'm wavering a little.=20
=20
=20
When they reached the coast of Asia Minor, they insisted that the
Greek colonies of Lydia recognize the Persian Kings as their over- Lords
and pay them a stipulated tax.
=20
Thanks
=20
Janet Castilleja
Heritage University
=20
To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web
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=20
Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/
=20
To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web
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=20
Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/
=20
To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web
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=20
Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/
To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web
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"Join or leave the list"=20
Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/=20
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<div class=3DSection1>
<p class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";
color:#1F497D'>Dick,<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";
color:#1F497D'><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";
color:#1F497D'>But isn’t “she” subject of =
“were” here, with SVI? While this is
a conditional use of “were,” the structure is analogous to =
“She was to leave.”<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";
color:#1F497D'><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";
color:#1F497D'>Herb<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";
color:#1F497D'><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<div>
<div style=3D'border:none;border-top:solid #B5C4DF 1.0pt;padding:3.0pt =
0in 0in 0in'>
<p class=3DMsoNormal><b><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"'>From:</span>=
</b><span
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"'> Assembly =
for the
Teaching of English Grammar [mailto:[log in to unmask]] <b>On =
Behalf Of </b>Veit,
Richard<br>
<b>Sent:</b> 2008-04-10 11:16<br>
<b>To:</b> [log in to unmask]<br>
<b>Subject:</b> Re: Odd sentence<o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
</div>
<p class=3DMsoNormal><o:p> </o:p></p>
<p class=3DMsoPlainText><span =
style=3D'font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";color:#003366'>Herb,<o:p></o:p>=
</span></p>
<p class=3DMsoPlainText><span =
style=3D'font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";color:#003366'><o:p> </o:p=
></span></p>
<p class=3DMsoPlainText><span =
style=3D'font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";color:#003366'>The
following would seem to be an exception to the claim that the actor of a
nonfinite verb is never nominative:<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3DMsoPlainText><span =
style=3D'font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";color:#003366'><o:p> </o:p=
></span></p>
<p class=3DMsoPlainText><span =
style=3D'font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";color:#003366'> &nbs=
p;
Were she to leave, everyone would panic.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3DMsoPlainText><span =
style=3D'font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";color:#003366'><o:p> </o:p=
></span></p>
<p class=3DMsoPlainText><span =
style=3D'font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";color:#003366'>Dick<o:p></o:p><=
/span></p>
<p class=3DMsoPlainText><span =
style=3D'font-family:"Arial","sans-serif"'><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class=3DMsoPlainText><span =
style=3D'font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";color:teal'>___________________=
_____________<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3DMsoPlainText><span =
style=3D'font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";color:teal'><o:p> </o:p></=
span></p>
<p class=3DMsoPlainText><span =
style=3D'font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";color:teal'>Richard
Veit<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3DMsoPlainText><span =
style=3D'font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";color:teal'>Department
of English<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3DMsoPlainText><span =
style=3D'font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";color:teal'>University
of North Carolina Wilmington<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3DMsoPlainText><o:p> </o:p></p>
<p class=3DMsoPlainText><o:p> </o:p></p>
<p class=3DMsoPlainText>-----Original Message-----<br>
From: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar
[mailto:[log in to unmask]] On Behalf Of STAHLKE, HERBERT F<br>
Sent: Wednesday, April 09, 2008 9:38 PM<br>
To: [log in to unmask]<br>
Subject: Re: Odd sentence<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3DMsoPlainText><o:p> </o:p></p>
<p class=3DMsoPlainText>I think an argument for that the subjunctive =
with
"suggest" is a finite<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3DMsoPlainText>clause is that it takes a nominative subject
pronoun. Nonfinite clauses<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3DMsoPlainText>take objective case or, with -ing forms, =
objective or
genitive.<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3DMsoPlainText><o:p> </o:p></p>
<p class=3DMsoPlainText>I suggest that she leave earlier.<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3DMsoPlainText>I encouraged her to leave =
earlier.<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3DMsoPlainText>I was surprised at her/him/his leaving =
early.<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3DMsoPlainText><o:p> </o:p></p>
<p class=3DMsoPlainText>Herb<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3DMsoPlainText><o:p> </o:p></p>
<p class=3DMsoPlainText>-----Original Message-----<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3DMsoPlainText>From: Assembly for the Teaching of English =
Grammar<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3DMsoPlainText>[mailto:[log in to unmask]] On Behalf Of =
Spruiell,
William C<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3DMsoPlainText>Sent: 2008-04-09 18:56<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3DMsoPlainText>To: [log in to unmask]<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3DMsoPlainText>Subject: Re: Odd sentence<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3DMsoPlainText><o:p> </o:p></p>
<p class=3DMsoPlainText>I'd treat that as a subjunctive -- there's the =
"If I
were president"<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3DMsoPlainText>type, and the "I suggested she be =
hired" type,
and this looks like a<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3DMsoPlainText>version of the latter, albeit in a nominal =
that-clause.
That's actually<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3DMsoPlainText>dodging your question a bit, though. For the =
first type
of subjunctive,<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3DMsoPlainText>one can argue for finiteness on the basis of the =
fact
that the<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3DMsoPlainText>subjunctive form can occur before the verb, and =
that kind
of "inversion"<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3DMsoPlainText>is characteristic of finite forms (but =
auxiliaries, in
non-subjunctive<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3DMsoPlainText>examples). Instead of "If I were =
president..."
one can opt for the<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3DMsoPlainText>hyperformal "Were I president..." =
variant. <o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3DMsoPlainText><o:p> </o:p></p>
<p class=3DMsoPlainText>I can't think of anything similar one can do =
with the
suggest-type<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3DMsoPlainText>subjunctive that would prove it's finite, unless =
you're
willing to<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3DMsoPlainText>accept the claim that its presence in a nominal
that-clause is<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3DMsoPlainText>sufficient proof of finiteness. That feels a bit
circular, somehow -- it<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3DMsoPlainText>rests on the assumption that a non-finite =
that-clause is
impossible,<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3DMsoPlainText>when someone could simply argue that this is an =
example
of just such a<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3DMsoPlainText>thing.<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3DMsoPlainText><o:p> </o:p></p>
<p class=3DMsoPlainText>Bill Spruiell<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3DMsoPlainText><o:p> </o:p></p>
<p class=3DMsoPlainText><o:p> </o:p></p>
<p class=3DMsoPlainText>-----Original Message-----<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3DMsoPlainText>From: Assembly for the Teaching of English =
Grammar<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3DMsoPlainText>[mailto:[log in to unmask]] On Behalf Of
Castilleja, Janet<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3DMsoPlainText>Sent: Wednesday, April 09, 2008 5:49 =
PM<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3DMsoPlainText>To: [log in to unmask]<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3DMsoPlainText>Subject: Odd sentence<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3DMsoPlainText><o:p> </o:p></p>
<p class=3DMsoPlainText>Hi<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3DMsoPlainText> <o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3DMsoPlainText>What do you folks make of this sentence? =
Is the
clause that begins<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3DMsoPlainText>'that the Greek colonies..." finite or
non-finite? I think it is<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3DMsoPlainText>non-finite, but I'm wavering a little. =
<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3DMsoPlainText> <o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3DMsoPlainText> <o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3DMsoPlainText>When they reached the coast of Asia =
Minor,
they insisted that the<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3DMsoPlainText>Greek colonies of Lydia recognize the Persian =
Kings as
their over- Lords<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3DMsoPlainText>and pay them a stipulated tax.<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3DMsoPlainText> <o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3DMsoPlainText>Thanks<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3DMsoPlainText> <o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3DMsoPlainText>Janet Castilleja<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3DMsoPlainText>Heritage University<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3DMsoPlainText><o:p> </o:p></p>
<p class=3DMsoPlainText>To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please =
visit the
list's web<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3DMsoPlainText>interface at:<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3DMsoPlainText>
http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3DMsoPlainText>and select "Join or leave the =
list"<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3DMsoPlainText><o:p> </o:p></p>
<p class=3DMsoPlainText>Visit ATEG's web site at =
http://ateg.org/<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3DMsoPlainText><o:p> </o:p></p>
<p class=3DMsoPlainText>To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please =
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<p class=3DMsoPlainText>and select "Join or leave the =
list"<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3DMsoPlainText><o:p> </o:p></p>
<p class=3DMsoPlainText>Visit ATEG's web site at =
http://ateg.org/<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3DMsoPlainText><o:p> </o:p></p>
<p class=3DMsoPlainText>To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please =
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list's web interface at:<o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class=3DMsoPlainText>and select "Join or leave the =
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<p class=3DMsoPlainText><o:p> </o:p></p>
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the list's
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select
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------_=_NextPart_001_01C89B1E.6C6D5537--
-----------------------------
Date: Thu, 10 Apr 2008 11:41:10 -0400
From: "Veit, Richard" <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Re: Odd sentence
This is a multi-part message in MIME format.
------_=_NextPart_001_01C89B21.45E265EC
Content-Type: text/plain;
charset="us-ascii"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Herb,
=20
Right you are. "She" is clearly the subject of "were" in "Were she
wise,..." and "If she were to leave,..." Presumably the underlying form
of "Were she to leave" is approximately "[She were [she leave]]" with
the second "she" deleted and the subject and verb inverted.
=20
Obviously my attempt to sneak that one past you failed.
=20
Dick
________________________________
Richard Veit
Department of English
University of North Carolina Wilmington
________________________________
From: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar
[mailto:[log in to unmask]] On Behalf Of STAHLKE, HERBERT F
Sent: Thursday, April 10, 2008 11:20 AM
To: [log in to unmask]
Subject: Re: Odd sentence
=20
Dick,
=20
But isn't "she" subject of "were" here, with SVI? While this is a
conditional use of "were," the structure is analogous to "She was to
leave."
=20
Herb
=20
From: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar
[mailto:[log in to unmask]] On Behalf Of Veit, Richard
Sent: 2008-04-10 11:16
To: [log in to unmask]
Subject: Re: Odd sentence
=20
Herb,
=20
The following would seem to be an exception to the claim that the actor
of a nonfinite verb is never nominative:
=20
Were she to leave, everyone would panic.
=20
Dick
=20
________________________________
=20
Richard Veit
Department of English
University of North Carolina Wilmington
=20
=20
-----Original Message-----
From: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar
[mailto:[log in to unmask]] On Behalf Of STAHLKE, HERBERT F
Sent: Wednesday, April 09, 2008 9:38 PM
To: [log in to unmask]
Subject: Re: Odd sentence
=20
I think an argument for that the subjunctive with "suggest" is a finite
clause is that it takes a nominative subject pronoun. Nonfinite clauses
take objective case or, with -ing forms, objective or genitive.
=20
I suggest that she leave earlier.
I encouraged her to leave earlier.
I was surprised at her/him/his leaving early.
=20
Herb
=20
-----Original Message-----
From: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar
[mailto:[log in to unmask]] On Behalf Of Spruiell, William C
Sent: 2008-04-09 18:56
To: [log in to unmask]
Subject: Re: Odd sentence
=20
I'd treat that as a subjunctive -- there's the "If I were president"
type, and the "I suggested she be hired" type, and this looks like a
version of the latter, albeit in a nominal that-clause. That's actually
dodging your question a bit, though. For the first type of subjunctive,
one can argue for finiteness on the basis of the fact that the
subjunctive form can occur before the verb, and that kind of "inversion"
is characteristic of finite forms (but auxiliaries, in non-subjunctive
examples). Instead of "If I were president..." one can opt for the
hyperformal "Were I president..." variant.=20
=20
I can't think of anything similar one can do with the suggest-type
subjunctive that would prove it's finite, unless you're willing to
accept the claim that its presence in a nominal that-clause is
sufficient proof of finiteness. That feels a bit circular, somehow -- it
rests on the assumption that a non-finite that-clause is impossible,
when someone could simply argue that this is an example of just such a
thing.
=20
Bill Spruiell
=20
=20
-----Original Message-----
From: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar
[mailto:[log in to unmask]] On Behalf Of Castilleja, Janet
Sent: Wednesday, April 09, 2008 5:49 PM
To: [log in to unmask]
Subject: Odd sentence
=20
Hi
=20
What do you folks make of this sentence? Is the clause that begins
'that the Greek colonies..." finite or non-finite? I think it is
non-finite, but I'm wavering a little.=20
=20
=20
When they reached the coast of Asia Minor, they insisted that the
Greek colonies of Lydia recognize the Persian Kings as their over- Lords
and pay them a stipulated tax.
=20
Thanks
=20
Janet Castilleja
Heritage University
=20
To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web
interface at:
http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html
and select "Join or leave the list"
=20
Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/
=20
To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web
interface at:
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and select "Join or leave the list"
=20
Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/
=20
To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web
interface at:
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and select "Join or leave the list"
=20
Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/
To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web
interface at: http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html and select
"Join or leave the list"=20
Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/=20
To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web
interface at: http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html and select
"Join or leave the list"=20
Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/
To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web interface
at:
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<body lang=3DEN-US link=3Dblue vlink=3Dpurple>
<div class=3DSection1>
<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D2 color=3Dnavy face=3DArial><span =
style=3D'font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy'>Herb,<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D2 color=3Dnavy face=3DArial><span =
style=3D'font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy'><o:p> </o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D2 color=3Dnavy face=3DArial><span =
style=3D'font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy'>Right you are. “She” is
clearly the subject of “were” in “Were she =
wise,…”
and “If she were to leave,…” Presumably the underlying =
form
of “Were she to leave” is approximately “[She were =
[she
leave]]” with the second “she” deleted and the subject =
and verb
inverted.<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D2 color=3Dnavy face=3DArial><span =
style=3D'font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy'><o:p> </o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D2 color=3Dnavy face=3DArial><span =
style=3D'font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy'>Obviously my attempt to sneak that =
one
past you failed.<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D2 color=3Dnavy face=3DArial><span =
style=3D'font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy'><o:p> </o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D2 color=3Dnavy face=3DArial><span =
style=3D'font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy'>Dick<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<div>
<p class=3DMsoNormal =
style=3D'mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><font
size=3D2 color=3Dteal face=3DArial><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Arial;
color:teal'>________________________________</span></font><font =
color=3Dnavy><span
style=3D'color:navy'><o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=3DMsoNormal =
style=3D'mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><font
size=3D2 color=3Dteal face=3DArial><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Arial;
color:teal'>Richard Veit<br>
Department of English<br>
</span></font><font size=3D2 face=3DArial><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:
Arial'><ns0:PlaceType w:insAuthor=3D"UNCW" =
w:insDate=3D"2008-04-10T11:33:00Z"
w:endInsAuthor=3D"UNCW" =
w:endInsDate=3D"2008-04-10T11:33:00Z"><st1:PlaceType
w:st=3D"on"><font color=3Dteal><span =
style=3D'color:teal'>University</span></font></st1:PlaceType></ns0:PlaceT=
ype><font
color=3Dteal><span style=3D'color:teal'> of </span></font><ns0:PlaceName
w:insAuthor=3D"UNCW" w:insDate=3D"2008-04-10T11:33:00Z" =
w:endInsAuthor=3D"UNCW"
w:endInsDate=3D"2008-04-10T11:33:00Z"><st1:PlaceName w:st=3D"on"><font =
color=3Dteal><span
style=3D'color:teal'>North =
Carolina</span></font></st1:PlaceName></ns0:PlaceName><font
color=3Dteal><span style=3D'color:teal'> </span></font><ns0:City =
w:insAuthor=3D"UNCW"
w:insDate=3D"2008-04-10T11:33:00Z" w:endInsAuthor=3D"UNCW"
w:endInsDate=3D"2008-04-10T11:33:00Z"><ns0:place w:insAuthor=3D"UNCW"
w:insDate=3D"2008-04-10T11:33:00Z" w:endInsAuthor=3D"UNCW"
w:endInsDate=3D"2008-04-10T11:33:00Z"><st1:City w:st=3D"on"><st1:place =
w:st=3D"on"><font
color=3Dteal><span =
style=3D'color:teal'>Wilmington</span></font></st1:place></st1:City></ns0=
:place></ns0:City></span></font><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<div class=3DMsoNormal align=3Dcenter style=3D'text-align:center'><font =
size=3D3
face=3D"Times New Roman"><span style=3D'font-size:12.0pt'>
<hr size=3D2 width=3D"100%" align=3Dcenter tabindex=3D-1>
</span></font></div>
<p class=3DMsoNormal><b><font size=3D2 face=3DTahoma><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;
font-family:Tahoma;font-weight:bold'>From:</span></font></b><font =
size=3D2
face=3DTahoma><span style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Tahoma'> =
Assembly for the
Teaching of English Grammar [mailto:[log in to unmask]] <b><span
style=3D'font-weight:bold'>On Behalf Of </span></b>STAHLKE, HERBERT =
F<br>
<b><span style=3D'font-weight:bold'>Sent:</span></b> Thursday, April 10, =
2008
11:20 AM<br>
<b><span style=3D'font-weight:bold'>To:</span></b> =
[log in to unmask]<br>
<b><span style=3D'font-weight:bold'>Subject:</span></b> Re: Odd =
sentence</span></font><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D3 face=3D"Times New Roman"><span =
style=3D'font-size:
12.0pt'><o:p> </o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D2 color=3D"#1f497d" =
face=3DCalibri><span
style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:Calibri;color:#1F497D'>Dick,<o:p></=
o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D2 color=3D"#1f497d" =
face=3DCalibri><span
style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:Calibri;color:#1F497D'><o:p> <=
/o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D2 color=3D"#1f497d" =
face=3DCalibri><span
style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:Calibri;color:#1F497D'>But =
isn’t
“she” subject of “were” here, with SVI? =
While
this is a conditional use of “were,” the structure is =
analogous to
“She was to leave.”<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D2 color=3D"#1f497d" =
face=3DCalibri><span
style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:Calibri;color:#1F497D'><o:p> <=
/o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D2 color=3D"#1f497d" =
face=3DCalibri><span
style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:Calibri;color:#1F497D'>Herb<o:p></o=
:p></span></font></p>
<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D2 color=3D"#1f497d" =
face=3DCalibri><span
style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:Calibri;color:#1F497D'><o:p> <=
/o:p></span></font></p>
<div>
<div style=3D'border:none;border-top:solid #B5C4DF 1.0pt;padding:3.0pt =
0in 0in 0in'>
<p class=3DMsoNormal><b><font size=3D2 face=3DTahoma><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;
font-family:Tahoma;font-weight:bold'>From:</span></font></b><font =
size=3D2
face=3DTahoma><span style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Tahoma'> =
Assembly for the
Teaching of English Grammar [mailto:[log in to unmask]] <b><span
style=3D'font-weight:bold'>On Behalf Of </span></b>Veit, Richard<br>
<b><span style=3D'font-weight:bold'>Sent:</span></b> 2008-04-10 =
11:16<br>
<b><span style=3D'font-weight:bold'>To:</span></b> =
[log in to unmask]<br>
<b><span style=3D'font-weight:bold'>Subject:</span></b> Re: Odd =
sentence<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
</div>
</div>
<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D3 face=3D"Times New Roman"><span =
style=3D'font-size:
12.0pt'><o:p> </o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=3DMsoPlainText><font size=3D2 color=3D"#003366" =
face=3DArial><span
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:#003366'>Herb,<o:p></o:=
p></span></font></p>
<p class=3DMsoPlainText><font size=3D2 color=3D"#003366" =
face=3DArial><span
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:#003366'><o:p> </o=
:p></span></font></p>
<p class=3DMsoPlainText><font size=3D2 color=3D"#003366" =
face=3DArial><span
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:#003366'>The following =
would
seem to be an exception to the claim that the actor of a nonfinite verb =
is
never nominative:<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=3DMsoPlainText><font size=3D2 color=3D"#003366" =
face=3DArial><span
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:#003366'><o:p> </o=
:p></span></font></p>
<p class=3DMsoPlainText><font size=3D2 color=3D"#003366" =
face=3DArial><span
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:#003366'> &n=
bsp;
Were she to leave, everyone would panic.<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=3DMsoPlainText><font size=3D2 color=3D"#003366" =
face=3DArial><span
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:#003366'><o:p> </o=
:p></span></font></p>
<p class=3DMsoPlainText><font size=3D2 color=3D"#003366" =
face=3DArial><span
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:#003366'>Dick<o:p></o:p=
></span></font></p>
<p class=3DMsoPlainText><font size=3D2 face=3DArial><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;
font-family:Arial'><o:p> </o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=3DMsoPlainText><font size=3D2 color=3Dteal face=3DArial><span
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:teal'>_________________=
_______________<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=3DMsoPlainText><font size=3D2 color=3Dteal face=3DArial><span
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:teal'><o:p> </o:p>=
</span></font></p>
<p class=3DMsoPlainText><font size=3D2 color=3Dteal face=3DArial><span
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:teal'>Richard =
Veit<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=3DMsoPlainText><font size=3D2 color=3Dteal face=3DArial><span
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:teal'>Department of =
English<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=3DMsoPlainText><st1:PlaceType w:st=3D"on"><font size=3D2 =
color=3Dteal
face=3DArial><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:teal'>University</span>=
</font></st1:PlaceType><font
color=3Dteal face=3DArial><span style=3D'font-family:Arial;color:teal'> =
of <st1:PlaceName
w:st=3D"on">North Carolina</st1:PlaceName> <st1:City =
w:st=3D"on"><st1:place =
w:st=3D"on">Wilmington</st1:place></st1:City><o:p></o:p></span></font></p=
>
<p class=3DMsoPlainText><font size=3D2 face=3D"Courier New"><span =
style=3D'font-size:
10.0pt'><o:p> </o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=3DMsoPlainText><font size=3D2 face=3D"Courier New"><span =
style=3D'font-size:
10.0pt'><o:p> </o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=3DMsoPlainText><font size=3D2 face=3D"Courier New"><span =
style=3D'font-size:
10.0pt'>-----Original Message-----<br>
From: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar
[mailto:[log in to unmask]] On Behalf Of STAHLKE, HERBERT F<br>
Sent: Wednesday, April 09, 2008 9:38 PM<br>
To: [log in to unmask]<br>
Subject: Re: Odd sentence<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=3DMsoPlainText><font size=3D2 face=3D"Courier New"><span =
style=3D'font-size:
10.0pt'><o:p> </o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=3DMsoPlainText><font size=3D2 face=3D"Courier New"><span =
style=3D'font-size:
10.0pt'>I think an argument for that the subjunctive with =
"suggest"
is a finite<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=3DMsoPlainText><font size=3D2 face=3D"Courier New"><span =
style=3D'font-size:
10.0pt'>clause is that it takes a nominative subject pronoun. =
Nonfinite
clauses<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=3DMsoPlainText><font size=3D2 face=3D"Courier New"><span =
style=3D'font-size:
10.0pt'>take objective case or, with -ing forms, objective or =
genitive.<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=3DMsoPlainText><font size=3D2 face=3D"Courier New"><span =
style=3D'font-size:
10.0pt'><o:p> </o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=3DMsoPlainText><font size=3D2 face=3D"Courier New"><span =
style=3D'font-size:
10.0pt'>I suggest that she leave earlier.<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=3DMsoPlainText><font size=3D2 face=3D"Courier New"><span =
style=3D'font-size:
10.0pt'>I encouraged her to leave earlier.<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=3DMsoPlainText><font size=3D2 face=3D"Courier New"><span =
style=3D'font-size:
10.0pt'>I was surprised at her/him/his leaving =
early.<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=3DMsoPlainText><font size=3D2 face=3D"Courier New"><span =
style=3D'font-size:
10.0pt'><o:p> </o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=3DMsoPlainText><font size=3D2 face=3D"Courier New"><span =
style=3D'font-size:
10.0pt'>Herb<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=3DMsoPlainText><font size=3D2 face=3D"Courier New"><span =
style=3D'font-size:
10.0pt'><o:p> </o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=3DMsoPlainText><font size=3D2 face=3D"Courier New"><span =
style=3D'font-size:
10.0pt'>-----Original Message-----<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=3DMsoPlainText><font size=3D2 face=3D"Courier New"><span =
style=3D'font-size:
10.0pt'>From: Assembly for the Teaching of English =
Grammar<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=3DMsoPlainText><font size=3D2 face=3D"Courier New"><span =
style=3D'font-size:
10.0pt'>[mailto:[log in to unmask]] On Behalf Of Spruiell, William =
C<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=3DMsoPlainText><font size=3D2 face=3D"Courier New"><span =
style=3D'font-size:
10.0pt'>Sent: 2008-04-09 18:56<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=3DMsoPlainText><font size=3D2 face=3D"Courier New"><span =
style=3D'font-size:
10.0pt'>To: [log in to unmask]<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=3DMsoPlainText><font size=3D2 face=3D"Courier New"><span =
style=3D'font-size:
10.0pt'>Subject: Re: Odd sentence<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=3DMsoPlainText><font size=3D2 face=3D"Courier New"><span =
style=3D'font-size:
10.0pt'><o:p> </o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=3DMsoPlainText><font size=3D2 face=3D"Courier New"><span =
style=3D'font-size:
10.0pt'>I'd treat that as a subjunctive -- there's the "If I were
president"<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=3DMsoPlainText><font size=3D2 face=3D"Courier New"><span =
style=3D'font-size:
10.0pt'>type, and the "I suggested she be hired" type, and =
this looks
like a<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=3DMsoPlainText><font size=3D2 face=3D"Courier New"><span =
style=3D'font-size:
10.0pt'>version of the latter, albeit in a nominal that-clause. That's =
actually<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=3DMsoPlainText><font size=3D2 face=3D"Courier New"><span =
style=3D'font-size:
10.0pt'>dodging your question a bit, though. For the first type of =
subjunctive,<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=3DMsoPlainText><font size=3D2 face=3D"Courier New"><span =
style=3D'font-size:
10.0pt'>one can argue for finiteness on the basis of the fact that =
the<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=3DMsoPlainText><font size=3D2 face=3D"Courier New"><span =
style=3D'font-size:
10.0pt'>subjunctive form can occur before the verb, and that kind of
"inversion"<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=3DMsoPlainText><font size=3D2 face=3D"Courier New"><span =
style=3D'font-size:
10.0pt'>is characteristic of finite forms (but auxiliaries, in =
non-subjunctive<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=3DMsoPlainText><font size=3D2 face=3D"Courier New"><span =
style=3D'font-size:
10.0pt'>examples). Instead of "If I were president..." one can =
opt
for the<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=3DMsoPlainText><font size=3D2 face=3D"Courier New"><span =
style=3D'font-size:
10.0pt'>hyperformal "Were I president..." variant. =
<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=3DMsoPlainText><font size=3D2 face=3D"Courier New"><span =
style=3D'font-size:
10.0pt'><o:p> </o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=3DMsoPlainText><font size=3D2 face=3D"Courier New"><span =
style=3D'font-size:
10.0pt'>I can't think of anything similar one can do with the =
suggest-type<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=3DMsoPlainText><font size=3D2 face=3D"Courier New"><span =
style=3D'font-size:
10.0pt'>subjunctive that would prove it's finite, unless you're willing =
to<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=3DMsoPlainText><font size=3D2 face=3D"Courier New"><span =
style=3D'font-size:
10.0pt'>accept the claim that its presence in a nominal that-clause =
is<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=3DMsoPlainText><font size=3D2 face=3D"Courier New"><span =
style=3D'font-size:
10.0pt'>sufficient proof of finiteness. That feels a bit circular, =
somehow --
it<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=3DMsoPlainText><font size=3D2 face=3D"Courier New"><span =
style=3D'font-size:
10.0pt'>rests on the assumption that a non-finite that-clause is =
impossible,<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=3DMsoPlainText><font size=3D2 face=3D"Courier New"><span =
style=3D'font-size:
10.0pt'>when someone could simply argue that this is an example of just =
such a<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=3DMsoPlainText><font size=3D2 face=3D"Courier New"><span =
style=3D'font-size:
10.0pt'>thing.<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=3DMsoPlainText><font size=3D2 face=3D"Courier New"><span =
style=3D'font-size:
10.0pt'><o:p> </o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=3DMsoPlainText><font size=3D2 face=3D"Courier New"><span =
style=3D'font-size:
10.0pt'>Bill Spruiell<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=3DMsoPlainText><font size=3D2 face=3D"Courier New"><span =
style=3D'font-size:
10.0pt'><o:p> </o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=3DMsoPlainText><font size=3D2 face=3D"Courier New"><span =
style=3D'font-size:
10.0pt'><o:p> </o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=3DMsoPlainText><font size=3D2 face=3D"Courier New"><span =
style=3D'font-size:
10.0pt'>-----Original Message-----<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=3DMsoPlainText><font size=3D2 face=3D"Courier New"><span =
style=3D'font-size:
10.0pt'>From: Assembly for the Teaching of English =
Grammar<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=3DMsoPlainText><font size=3D2 face=3D"Courier New"><span =
style=3D'font-size:
10.0pt'>[mailto:[log in to unmask]] On Behalf Of Castilleja, =
Janet<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=3DMsoPlainText><font size=3D2 face=3D"Courier New"><span =
style=3D'font-size:
10.0pt'>Sent: Wednesday, April 09, 2008 5:49 =
PM<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=3DMsoPlainText><font size=3D2 face=3D"Courier New"><span =
style=3D'font-size:
10.0pt'>To: [log in to unmask]<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=3DMsoPlainText><font size=3D2 face=3D"Courier New"><span =
style=3D'font-size:
10.0pt'>Subject: Odd sentence<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=3DMsoPlainText><font size=3D2 face=3D"Courier New"><span =
style=3D'font-size:
10.0pt'><o:p> </o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=3DMsoPlainText><font size=3D2 face=3D"Courier New"><span =
style=3D'font-size:
10.0pt'>Hi<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=3DMsoPlainText><font size=3D2 face=3D"Courier New"><span =
style=3D'font-size:
10.0pt'> <o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=3DMsoPlainText><font size=3D2 face=3D"Courier New"><span =
style=3D'font-size:
10.0pt'>What do you folks make of this sentence? Is the clause =
that
begins<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=3DMsoPlainText><font size=3D2 face=3D"Courier New"><span =
style=3D'font-size:
10.0pt'>'that the Greek colonies..." finite or non-finite? I =
think
it is<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=3DMsoPlainText><font size=3D2 face=3D"Courier New"><span =
style=3D'font-size:
10.0pt'>non-finite, but I'm wavering a little. =
<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=3DMsoPlainText><font size=3D2 face=3D"Courier New"><span =
style=3D'font-size:
10.0pt'> <o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=3DMsoPlainText><font size=3D2 face=3D"Courier New"><span =
style=3D'font-size:
10.0pt'> <o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=3DMsoPlainText><font size=3D2 face=3D"Courier New"><span =
style=3D'font-size:
10.0pt'>When they reached the coast of <st1:place =
w:st=3D"on">Asia
Minor</st1:place>, they insisted that the<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=3DMsoPlainText><font size=3D2 face=3D"Courier New"><span =
style=3D'font-size:
10.0pt'>Greek colonies of <st1:country-region w:st=3D"on"><st1:place =
w:st=3D"on">Lydia</st1:place></st1:country-region>
recognize the Persian Kings as their over- =
Lords<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=3DMsoPlainText><font size=3D2 face=3D"Courier New"><span =
style=3D'font-size:
10.0pt'>and pay them a stipulated tax.<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=3DMsoPlainText><font size=3D2 face=3D"Courier New"><span =
style=3D'font-size:
10.0pt'> <o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=3DMsoPlainText><font size=3D2 face=3D"Courier New"><span =
style=3D'font-size:
10.0pt'>Thanks<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=3DMsoPlainText><font size=3D2 face=3D"Courier New"><span =
style=3D'font-size:
10.0pt'> <o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=3DMsoPlainText><font size=3D2 face=3D"Courier New"><span =
style=3D'font-size:
10.0pt'>Janet Castilleja<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=3DMsoPlainText><st1:place w:st=3D"on"><st1:PlaceName =
w:st=3D"on"><font
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<st1:PlaceType =
w:st=3D"on">University</st1:PlaceType></st1:place><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3DMsoPlainText><font size=3D2 face=3D"Courier New"><span =
style=3D'font-size:
10.0pt'><o:p> </o:p></span></font></p>
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------_=_NextPart_001_01C89B21.45E265EC--
-----------------------------
Date: Thu, 10 Apr 2008 12:00:16 -0400
From: Martha Kolln <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Clauses vs. phrases
Janet,
I think that your explanation of participle and infinite phrases as
non-finite clauses is clear, and I know that perhaps the majority of
linguists on our list agree with you. And, yes, because those verb
phrases are reduced clauses, we can call them clauses.
But I prefer to reserve "clause" for the traditional "subject +
predicate." First, the work that I do is mainly for students who are
applying their knowledge of sentence grammar to their own writing or
to the teaching of others. It's very practical to be able to define a
sentence and discuss its possibilities and its punctuation on the
basis of clauses--the subject + predicate kind. And it's very
useful to discuss all the possibilities for expanding sentences with
various kinds of phrases, both verb phrases and others, and various
dependent clauses.
I also have to dissent somewhat from the notion that "Running" in
your example doesn't make the grade as a clause because it has no
other "clause elements." But doesn't the fact that "run" is
intransitive and doesn't need any other elements to be a grammatical
sentence make a difference? The children are running. If your
example had been "Running regularly is good for you" or "Running
fast. . .", would that make a difference? And in your example "To
know him is to love him," isn't "to know him" also a non-finite
clause? So you would analyze that as three clauses, right?
For purposes of pedagogy--the kind of teaching that I think should be
going on in language arts classes of middle school and high school--I
think structural grammar is the logical choice.
Martha
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-----------------------------
Date: Thu, 10 Apr 2008 11:21:54 -0700
From: "Castilleja, Janet" <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Re: Clauses vs. phrases
I do think that 'To know him is to love him' consists of three clauses =
together, two nonfinite and the complete clause finite. In my other =
example, it would make a difference to my analysis if it were 'running =
regularly is good for you ' rather than 'running is good for you.' I =
would call the first a reduced clause. I analyze it in a way that =
participle phrases still exist, but I guess I could call them all =
clauses if the possibility of other clause elements is there.
=20
I actually only use the reduced clause explanation with my upper =
division students who are studying to be ESL or bilingual ed teachers. I =
do this so I can show them how independent clauses can be combined and =
where the elements of those embedded clauses come from. I also do it =
because it usually seems reasonably transparent to me. For number of =
years, we have taught a Quirk et al. based grammar in this class. =
However, I may have to change that. The students have to take a =
professional certification test that seems to expect them to know quite =
a bit of grammar, but much of it is discussed in a more traditional way, =
so now I find myself saying things like this: " But you might find this =
referred to as a participle phrase on the test or in the text books your =
district uses" and things like that. It's probably more confusing to =
try to get them to learn more than one name for structure.
=20
In my composition course, I stick to more traditional names for =
structures and use them to discuss linguistic possibilities. At my =
school, we use sentence combining in the developmental composition =
classes. I think students are more comfortable if they have a name for =
a structure, but I think a lot of grammar terminology just overwhelms =
them.
=20
Janet
________________________________
From: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar on behalf of Martha =
Kolln
Sent: Thu 4/10/2008 9:00 AM
To: [log in to unmask]
Subject: Clauses vs. phrases
Janet,
I think that your explanation of participle and infinite phrases as
non-finite clauses is clear, and I know that perhaps the majority of
linguists on our list agree with you. And, yes, because those verb
phrases are reduced clauses, we can call them clauses.
But I prefer to reserve "clause" for the traditional "subject +
predicate." First, the work that I do is mainly for students who are
applying their knowledge of sentence grammar to their own writing or
to the teaching of others. It's very practical to be able to define a
sentence and discuss its possibilities and its punctuation on the
basis of clauses--the subject + predicate kind. And it's very
useful to discuss all the possibilities for expanding sentences with
various kinds of phrases, both verb phrases and others, and various
dependent clauses.
I also have to dissent somewhat from the notion that "Running" in
your example doesn't make the grade as a clause because it has no
other "clause elements." But doesn't the fact that "run" is
intransitive and doesn't need any other elements to be a grammatical
sentence make a difference? The children are running. If your
example had been "Running regularly is good for you" or "Running
fast. . .", would that make a difference? And in your example "To
know him is to love him," isn't "to know him" also a non-finite
clause? So you would analyze that as three clauses, right?
For purposes of pedagogy--the kind of teaching that I think should be
going on in language arts classes of middle school and high school--I
think structural grammar is the logical choice.
Martha
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-----------------------------
Date: Thu, 10 Apr 2008 15:24:42 -0400
From: Peter Adams <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Grammar Texts
--Apple-Mail-10--232467559
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I am thinking that it might be useful to some on this list to see a
list of texts that could be used in a credit grammar course. So I
thought I would get the list going with the texts I'm familiar with
and then ask others to add to the list. Please understand that I am
not necessarily recommending all of these, but I thought people might
find it useful to see what their options are. So here's a list of the
grammar texts I find on my shelf today:
Biber, Douglas, Susan Conrad, and Geoffrey Leech. Longman Student
Grammar of Spoken and Written English. Longman.
Greenbaum, Sidney. Oxford English Grammar. Oxford UP.
Greenbaum, Sidney, and Randolph Quirk. A Student's Grammar of the
English Language. Longman.
Hancock, Craig. Meaning-Centered Grammar: An Introductory Text.
Equinox.
Huddleston, Rodney, and Geoffrey K. Pullum. The Cambridge Grammar of
the English Language. Cambridge UP.
Kaplan, Jeffrey. English Grammar: Principles and Facts. Prentice Hall.
Klammer, Thomas P., Muriel R. Schulz, and Angela della Volpe.
Analyzing English Grammar. Pearson.
Kolln, Martha, and Robert Funk. Understanding English Grammar. Pearson.
Morenberg, Max. Doing Grammar. Oxford UP.
What have I overlooked?
Peter Adams
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--Apple-Mail-10--232467559
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<html><body style=3D"word-wrap: break-word; -webkit-nbsp-mode: space;
-webki=
t-line-break: after-white-space; ">I am thinking that it might be useful
to=20=
some on this list to see a list of texts that could be used in a credit
gram=
mar course. So I thought I would get the list going with the texts
I'm=
familiar with and then ask others to add to the list. Please
understa=
nd that I am not necessarily recommending all of these, but I thought
people=
might find it useful to see what their options are. So here's a
list=20=
of the grammar texts I find on my shelf
today:<div><br></div><div><br></div>=
<div>Biber, Douglas, Susan Conrad, and Geoffrey Leech. <i>Longman
Stud=
ent Grammar of Spoken and Written English</i>.
Longman.</div><div><br>=
</div><div>Greenbaum, Sidney. <i>Oxford English Grammar</i>.
Oxf=
ord UP.</div><div><br></div><div>Greenbaum, Sidney, and Randolph Quirk.
&nbs=
p;<i>A Student's Grammar of the English Language</i>.
Longman.</div><d=
iv><br></div><div>Hancock, Craig. <i>Meaning-Centered Grammar: An
Intr=
oductory Text</i>. Equinox.</div><div><br></div><div>Huddleston,
Rodne=
y, and Geoffrey K. Pullum. <i>The Cambridge Grammar of the English
Lang=
uage</i>. Cambridge UP.</div><div><br></div><div>Kaplan, Jeffrey.
&nbs=
p;<i>English Grammar: Principles and Facts</i>. Prentice
Hall.</div><d=
iv><br></div><div>Klammer, Thomas P., Muriel R. Schulz, and Angela della
Vol=
pe. <i>Analyzing English Grammar</i>.
Pearson.</div><div><br></d=
iv><div>Kolln, Martha, and Robert Funk. <i>Understanding English
Gramm=
ar</i>. Pearson.</div><div><br></div><div>Morenberg, Max. <i>Doing
Gra=
mmar</i>. Oxford
UP.</div><div><br></div><div><br></div><div><br></div><div>=
What have I overlooked?</div><div><br></div><div>Peter
Adams</div></body></h=
tml>=3D
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--Apple-Mail-10--232467559--
-----------------------------
Date: Thu, 10 Apr 2008 16:10:12 -0400
From: "Spruiell, William C" <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Re: Clauses vs. phrases
Until the early twentieth century, people who wrote grammar books tended
to use terms like "phrase" and "clause" rather unsystematically -- they
were descriptive labels, but not precisely defined ones. The way the
terms are used in U.S. K-12 education is the result of a consensus that
developed among educators on this side of the Atlantic, but it's not a
universal consensus. A good many Commonwealth grammarians (for example,
many in the Systemics approach, but certainly not limited to it), use
"group" for what most Statesiders would call a phrase (basically, any
phrase that all of us would view as endocentric is a "group," but an
arguably-exocentric constituent without a predicate is a "phrase," with
the prepositional phrase being the prime example). Similarly, the
requirement that a clause have a subject and finite verb is part of the
consensus that developed here, but not elsewhere.
I like to view gerunds, infinitives, etc. as kinds of *predicates* --
but that's based on an approach in which the clause has three, rather
than two, major constituents: subject, finite marker, and predicate. I
derived that from SFL, but there are analogues in other modern
approaches and there are certainly historical precedents for that
tripartite division. It's not part of the K-12 consensus, though, such
that it is, so I don't harp on it much in my pedagogic grammar classes.
Bill Spruiell
Dept. of English
Central Michigan University
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-----------------------------
Date: Thu, 10 Apr 2008 17:21:10 -0400
From: "Spruiell, William C" <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Than vs. other than
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=20
Someone asked me today whether one should use "I" or "me" after "other
than." Now, I know the standard answer for when you have just "than" -
fill in the words that you think are elided to get the right pronoun:
=20
John gave Mary more books than I [gave Mary].
John gave Mary more books than [he gave] me.
=20
But...I can't make ellipsis work with "other than":
=20
*Don't talk to anyone other than [you talk to] me.
=20
If I used "but" instead of "other than," I'd class that "but" as a
preposition - it seems to be introducing a noun phrase, not a clause
with elliptical bits -- so that's the route I went with "other than."
Does that seem reasonable? Garner's dictionary of usage had nothing on
that particular point.
=20
Thanks in advance -=20
=20
Bill Spruiell
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<p class=3DMsoNormal><o:p> </o:p></p>
<p class=3DMsoNormal>Someone asked me today whether one should use =
“I”
or “me” after “other than.” Now, I know the =
standard
answer for when you have just “than” – fill in the =
words that
you think are elided to get the right pronoun:<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3DMsoNormal><o:p> </o:p></p>
<p =
class=3DMsoNormal> &=
nbsp; John
gave Mary more books than I [gave Mary].<o:p></o:p></p>
<p =
class=3DMsoNormal> &=
nbsp; John
gave Mary more books than [he gave] me.<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3DMsoNormal><o:p> </o:p></p>
<p class=3DMsoNormal>But…I can’t make ellipsis work with =
“other
than”:<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3DMsoNormal><o:p> </o:p></p>
<p =
class=3DMsoNormal> &=
nbsp; *Don’t
talk to anyone other than [you talk to] me.<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3DMsoNormal><o:p> </o:p></p>
<p class=3DMsoNormal>If I used “but” instead of “other =
than,”
I’d class that “but” as a preposition – it seems =
to be
introducing a noun phrase, not a clause with elliptical bits -- so =
that’s
the route I went with “other than.” Does that seem
reasonable? Garner’s dictionary of usage had nothing on that =
particular
point.<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3DMsoNormal><o:p> </o:p></p>
<p class=3DMsoNormal>Thanks in advance – <o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3DMsoNormal><o:p> </o:p></p>
<p class=3DMsoNormal>Bill Spruiell<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
</body>
</html>
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and select "Join or leave the list"
<p>
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------_=_NextPart_001_01C89B50.CA986CCA--
-----------------------------
Date: Thu, 10 Apr 2008 15:00:36 -0700
From: "Castilleja, Janet" <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Re: Odd sentence
Well, I should have looked this up is Quirk et al. in the first place
and saved everybody the trouble. They quite clearly explained that
'insist,' when the meaning is a command, is a verb that frequently
requires a that- clause in the mandative subjunctive form. I usually
treat the subjunctive as finite, although I don't know that it is,
quite.
Thanks to all!
Janet=20
-----Original Message-----
From: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar
[mailto:[log in to unmask]] On Behalf Of Spruiell, William C
Sent: Wednesday, April 09, 2008 3:56 PM
To: [log in to unmask]
Subject: Re: Odd sentence
I'd treat that as a subjunctive -- there's the "If I were president"
type, and the "I suggested she be hired" type, and this looks like a
version of the latter, albeit in a nominal that-clause. That's actually
dodging your question a bit, though. For the first type of subjunctive,
one can argue for finiteness on the basis of the fact that the
subjunctive form can occur before the verb, and that kind of "inversion"
is characteristic of finite forms (but auxiliaries, in non-subjunctive
examples). Instead of "If I were president..." one can opt for the
hyperformal "Were I president..." variant.=20
I can't think of anything similar one can do with the suggest-type
subjunctive that would prove it's finite, unless you're willing to
accept the claim that its presence in a nominal that-clause is
sufficient proof of finiteness. That feels a bit circular, somehow -- it
rests on the assumption that a non-finite that-clause is impossible,
when someone could simply argue that this is an example of just such a
thing.
Bill Spruiell
-----Original Message-----
From: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar
[mailto:[log in to unmask]] On Behalf Of Castilleja, Janet
Sent: Wednesday, April 09, 2008 5:49 PM
To: [log in to unmask]
Subject: Odd sentence
Hi
=20
What do you folks make of this sentence? Is the clause that begins
'that the Greek colonies..." finite or non-finite? I think it is
non-finite, but I'm wavering a little.=20
=20
=20
When they reached the coast of Asia Minor, they insisted that the
Greek colonies of Lydia recognize the Persian Kings as their over- Lords
and pay them a stipulated tax.
=20
Thanks
=20
Janet Castilleja
Heritage University
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-----------------------------
End of ATEG Digest - 9 Apr 2008 to 10 Apr 2008 (#2008-87)
*********************************************************
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--ruwxz124689BDFGIKLNPRSUWXZbdegiklnpqsuwx--
------------------------------
Date: Fri, 11 Apr 2008 19:06:26 -0400
From: "STAHLKE, HERBERT F" <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Re: relative advantages of marking sentences versus diagramming
This is a multi-part message in MIME format.
------_=_NextPart_001_01C89C28.AFFC559B
Content-Type: text/plain;
charset="US-ASCII"
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Dick,
=20
While I have good memories of diagramming, it's because I was one of
those students who was good at it. It just made sense and came to me
easily. I can't argue with litany of criticisms you review. I have, by
the way, similar enjoyment of and problems with phrase structure trees,
which I find generally more useful than RK diagrams, if not necessarily
any clearer, and flawed in other ways although they do structure very
well.
=20
But I'm bothered by the criticism that either kind of diagramming is
simply an exercise in geometry. I suspect it was that when I learned it
and that it's all too often taught in that way: the diagram as an end
in itself. But any sort of grammar, even without formal diagrams, can
be taught as an end in itself, and that's the problem many of us have
with traditional school grammar, that when it's not simply about formal
correctness it is an end in itself. We classify words into parts of
speech to classify words into parts of speech. We underline subjects
once and predicates twice with the same circular goal. The problem with
teaching grammar is most frequently that we don't know why we teach what
we teach, and so we can't provide a curricular justification that will
pass muster with any competent curriculum committee. We never explain
the role of subject and predicate in expressing meaning effectively and
in structuring discourse.
=20
Asking why we teach what we teach will lead to answers that actually do
deal with communication, spoken and written. Doing so will make us ask
what developing writers need to know about their grammatical options so
that they choose them with as much knowledge and care that we would like
them to make other choices. =20
=20
I disagree strongly with Florey's claim that you cite, "But there are
other places to acquire it than in sixth-grade grammar classes. . . .
The fact is that a lot of people don't need diagramming or anything
else: they pick up grammar and syntax effortlessly through their reading
. . . and they do things correctly without knowing why." This is the
standard confusion of grammar as what children learn in their first five
years as they acquire most of the first language and grammar as the
anatomy and physiology of language that defines the rhetorical choices
we can make as we speak or write. There is no question that children
master the former sort of grammar. The problem is that they don't
typically learn at the same time how to use that knowledge to good
rhetorical effect without overt teaching. It's rather like saying that
because children learn to run and swing their arms without overt
teaching that they don't have to taught to play tennis, an activity in
which directed and effective use of these natural motions is critical.
=20
So we're back to the questions that continue to both plague and drive
groups like ATEG: what should we teach and how should we teach it?
=20
Herb
From: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar
[mailto:[log in to unmask]] On Behalf Of rbetting
Sent: 2008-04-11 09:06
To: [log in to unmask]
Subject: Re: relative advantages of marking sentences versus diagramming
=20
You might consider my analysis of diagramming from Grammar Today:
The question is whether diagramming helps, whether students understand
the functions of the various parts of sentences better with diagrams.
Does it help to put flag and Camping on a line where the system says
subjects belong? Students could analyze the sentences and come to the
same conclusion without a diagram. What a diagram does illustrate is
that Camping, normally a verb, is used as a subject. But students can
also understand that without a diagram. They've used those kinds of
nominatives for years. For visual learners, the diagram may help.
Diagrams appear neat and attractive for some, frown formidably for
others. Several problems with diagramming: (1) On some level the lines
and sticks appear to make clear the relationship of the parts, but
diagrams do almost nothing to explain meaning, while they oversimplify
language structures. (2) Diagrams in textbooks use someone else's
sentences. Few difficult ones. None that cannot be parsed neatly. (3)
Diagrams are not predictive; that is, they don't help students produce
sentences of their own. (4) Diagrams fail to distinguish between form
and function; that is, any word or phrase in subject position must be a
nominative. Many different kinds of structures can be nominatives:
gerunds, infinitives, prepositional phrases, noun clauses. (5) Badly
worded and ungrammatical sentences can be diagrammed as neatly as
well-worded sentences can. (6) Diagramming as an exercise can become an
end in itself. (7) Sentences are isolated from context, never the case
in actual use. (8) Diagrams fail to make a connection between knowing
how to do them and being able to speak and write more effectively.
Diagrams don't automatically help students improve their style. They may
even prevent students from exploring their own linguistic creativity.=20
In Teacher Man Frank McCourt explains his inability to teach
diagramming, the "structure and Euclidian beauty of it." He admits, "I
tried but failed. I made lines vertical, horizontal, slanting, and then
I stood, adrift at the blackboard, till a Chinese student volunteered to
take over and teach the teacher what the teacher should have known."
In her recent book Sister Bernadette's Barking Dog Kitty Burns Florey
concludes that diagramming, while a joyful activity for some students,
will not improve their writing or speaking. "Few people would deny that
students need to master grammar in order to write decently," Florey
writes. "But there are other places to acquire it than in sixth-grade
grammar classes. . . . The fact is that a lot of people don't need
diagramming or anything else: they pick up grammar and syntax
effortlessly through their reading . . . and they do things correctly
without knowing why."
=20
Grammar Today 84 Chapter 6. The Beginnings of Traditional Grammar
Dick Betting =20
----- Original Message -----=20
From: Scott Woods <mailto:[log in to unmask]> =20
To: [log in to unmask]
Sent: Friday, April 11, 2008 12:23 AM
Subject: relative advantages of marking sentences versus
diagramming
=20
Dear Listmates,
I would appreciate some comment on the relative advantages of
marking sentences (following a KISS Grammar method or similar) versus
diagramming sentences in the Reed-Kellogg style (or variant) for the
purposes of teaching and learning how to understand sentence structure.
The students are diligent upper elementary and middle school students
performing at or above grade level; the teachers believe that grammar
instruction is important; the administration lets the teachers do what
they want, provided their students continue to outperform other schools.
Should students learn diagramming? What advantages does it bring them
that marking will not? When should they learn diagramming? Does anyone
have any experience with using either both methods or diagramming with
this age group? Is there any relevant research? =20
Thanks,=20
Scott Woods
__________________________________________________
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"Join or leave the list"=20
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<div class=3DSection1>
<p class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";
color:#1F497D'>Dick,<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";
color:#1F497D'><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";
color:#1F497D'>While I have good memories of diagramming, it’s =
because I
was one of those students who was good at it. It just made sense =
and came
to me easily. I can’t argue with litany of criticisms you =
review.
I have, by the way, similar enjoyment of and problems with phrase =
structure
trees, which I find generally more useful than RK diagrams, if not =
necessarily
any clearer, and flawed in other ways although they do structure very =
well.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";
color:#1F497D'><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";
color:#1F497D'>But I’m bothered by the criticism that either kind =
of
diagramming is simply an exercise in geometry. I suspect it was =
that when
I learned it and that it’s all too often taught in that way: =
the
diagram as an end in itself. But any sort of grammar, even without =
formal
diagrams, can be taught as an end in itself, and that’s the =
problem many
of us have with traditional school grammar, that when it’s not =
simply
about formal correctness it is an end in itself. We classify words =
into
parts of speech to classify words into parts of speech. We =
underline
subjects once and predicates twice with the same circular goal. =
The
problem with teaching grammar is most frequently that we don’t =
know why
we teach what we teach, and so we can’t provide a curricular
justification that will pass muster with any competent curriculum =
committee.
We never explain the role of subject and predicate in expressing meaning
effectively and in structuring discourse.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";
color:#1F497D'><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";
color:#1F497D'>Asking why we teach what we teach will lead to answers =
that
actually do deal with communication, spoken and written. Doing so =
will
make us ask what developing writers need to know about their grammatical =
options
so that they choose them with as much knowledge and care that we would =
like
them to make other choices. <o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";
color:#1F497D'><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";
color:#1F497D'>I disagree strongly with Florey’s claim that you =
cite, “</span><span
class=3Da2><span style=3D'font-size:11.0pt'>But there are other places =
to acquire
it than in sixth-grade grammar classes. . . . The fact is that a lot of =
people
don’t need diagramming or anything else: they pick up grammar and =
syntax
effortlessly through their reading . . . and they do things correctly =
without
knowing why.” </span></span><span style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;
font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'>This is the standard
confusion of grammar as what children learn in their first five years as =
they
acquire most of the first language and grammar as the anatomy and =
physiology of
language that defines the rhetorical choices we can make as we speak or
write. There is no question that children master the former sort =
of
grammar. The problem is that they don’t typically learn at =
the same
time how to use that knowledge to good rhetorical effect without overt =
teaching.
It’s rather like saying that because children learn to run and =
swing
their arms without overt teaching that they don’t have to taught =
to play
tennis, an activity in which directed and effective use of these natural =
motions
is critical.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";
color:#1F497D'><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";
color:#1F497D'>So we’re back to the questions that continue to =
both
plague and drive groups like ATEG: what should we teach and how =
should we
teach it?<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";
color:#1F497D'><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";
color:#1F497D'>Herb<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<div>
<div style=3D'border:none;border-top:solid #B5C4DF 1.0pt;padding:3.0pt =
0in 0in 0in'>
<p class=3DMsoNormal><b><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"'>From:</span>=
</b><span
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"'> Assembly =
for the
Teaching of English Grammar [mailto:[log in to unmask]] <b>On =
Behalf Of </b>rbetting<br>
<b>Sent:</b> 2008-04-11 09:06<br>
<b>To:</b> [log in to unmask]<br>
<b>Subject:</b> Re: relative advantages of marking sentences versus =
diagramming<o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
</div>
<p class=3DMsoNormal><o:p> </o:p></p>
<div>
<p class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif"'>You
might consider my analysis of diagramming from Grammar =
Today:</span><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3Dpa15 =
style=3D'margin:0in;margin-bottom:.0001pt;page-break-before:always'><span=
class=3Da2><span style=3D'font-size:10.0pt'>The question is whether =
diagramming
helps, whether students understand the functions of the various parts of
sentences better with diagrams. Does it help to put <b><i>flag =
</i></b>and <b><i>Camping
</i></b>on a line where the system says subjects belong? Students could =
analyze
the sentences and come to the same conclusion without a diagram. What a =
diagram
does illustrate is that <b><i>Camping</i></b>, normally a verb, is used =
as a
subject. But students can also understand that without a diagram. =
They’ve
used those kinds of nominatives for years. For visual learners, the =
diagram may
help. Diagrams appear neat and attractive for some, frown formidably for
others. </span></span><span class=3Da2><b><span =
style=3D'font-size:11.0pt'>Several
problems with diagramming</span></b></span><span class=3Da2><span
style=3D'font-size:11.0pt'>: (1) On some level the lines and sticks =
appear to
make clear the relationship of the parts, but diagrams do almost nothing =
to
explain meaning, while they oversimplify language structures. (2) =
Diagrams in
textbooks use someone else’s sentences. Few difficult ones. None =
that cannot
be parsed neatly. (3) Diagrams are not predictive; that is, they =
don’t
help students produce sentences of their own. (4) Diagrams fail to =
distinguish
between form and function; that is, any word or phrase in subject =
position must
be a nominative. Many different kinds of structures can be nominatives:
gerunds, infinitives, prepositional phrases, noun clauses. (5) Badly =
worded and
ungrammatical sentences can be diagrammed as neatly as well-worded =
sentences
can. (6) Diagramming as an exercise can become an end in itself. (7) =
Sentences
are isolated from context, never the case in actual use. (8) Diagrams =
fail to
make a connection between knowing how to do them and being able to speak =
and
write more effectively. Diagrams don’t automatically help students =
improve
their style. They may even prevent students from exploring their own =
linguistic
creativity. </span></span><span =
style=3D'font-size:11.0pt'><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3Dpa15 =
style=3D'margin:0in;margin-bottom:.0001pt;text-indent:.5in'><span
class=3Da2><span style=3D'font-size:10.5pt'>In <b><i>Teacher Man =
</i></b>Frank
McCourt explains his inability to teach diagramming, the =
“structure and
Euclidian beauty of it.” He admits, “I tried but failed. I =
made
lines vertical, horizontal, slanting, and then I stood, adrift at the
blackboard, till a Chinese student volunteered to take over and teach =
the
teacher what the teacher should have known.”</span></span><span
style=3D'font-size:10.5pt'><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3DMsoNormal><span class=3Da2><span =
style=3D'font-size:11.0pt'>In her recent
book <b><i>Sister Bernadette’s Barking Dog </i></b>Kitty Burns =
Florey
concludes that diagramming, while a joyful activity for some students, =
will not
improve their writing or speaking. “Few people would deny that =
students
need to master grammar in order to write decently,” Florey writes.
“But there are other places to acquire it than in sixth-grade =
grammar
classes. . . . The fact is that a lot of people don’t need =
diagramming or
anything else: they pick up grammar and syntax effortlessly through =
their
reading . . . and they do things correctly without knowing =
why.”</span></span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3Dpa15 =
style=3D'margin:0in;margin-bottom:.0001pt;text-indent:.5in'><span
style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;color:black'> <o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3Ddefault style=3D'margin:0in;margin-bottom:.0001pt'><span
style=3D'font-size:11.0pt'>Grammar Today </span><span =
style=3D'font-size:11.5pt'>84
</span><i><span style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Lucida =
Bright","serif"'>Chapter
6. The Beginnings of Traditional Grammar Dick
Betting </span></i><span =
style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:
"Lucida Bright","serif"'><o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<blockquote style=3D'border:none;border-left:solid black =
1.5pt;padding:0in 0in 0in 4.0pt;
margin-left:3.75pt;margin-top:5.0pt;margin-right:0in;margin-bottom:5.0pt'=
>
<div>
<p class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif"'>-----
Original Message ----- <o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3DMsoNormal style=3D'background:#E4E4E4'><b><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;
font-family:"Arial","sans-serif"'>From:</span></b><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;
font-family:"Arial","sans-serif"'> <a =
href=3D"mailto:[log in to unmask]"
title=3D"[log in to unmask]">Scott Woods</a> <o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3DMsoNormal><b><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif"'>To:</span></b=
><span
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif"'> <a
href=3D"mailto:[log in to unmask]" =
title=3D"[log in to unmask]">[log in to unmask]</a>
<o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3DMsoNormal><b><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif"'>Sent:</span><=
/b><span
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif"'> Friday, =
April 11,
2008 12:23 AM<o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3DMsoNormal><b><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif"'>Subject:</spa=
n></b><span
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif"'> relative =
advantages
of marking sentences versus diagramming<o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3DMsoNormal><o:p> </o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3DMsoNormal>Dear Listmates,<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3DMsoNormal>I would appreciate some comment on the relative =
advantages
of marking sentences (following a KISS Grammar method or similar) versus
diagramming sentences in the Reed-Kellogg style (or variant) for the =
purposes
of teaching and learning how to understand sentence structure. The =
students
are diligent upper elementary and middle school students performing at =
or above
grade level; the teachers believe that grammar instruction is important; =
the
administration lets the teachers do what they want, provided their =
students
continue to outperform other schools. Should students learn
diagramming? What advantages does it bring them that marking will =
not?
When should they learn diagramming? Does anyone have any =
experience
with using either both methods or diagramming with this age group? =
Is there
any relevant research? <o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3DMsoNormal>Thanks, <o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3DMsoNormal>Scott Woods<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<p>__________________________________________________<br>
Do You Yahoo!?<br>
Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around <br>
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the list's
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select
"Join or leave the list" <o:p></o:p></p>
<p>Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/<o:p></o:p></p>
</blockquote>
<p class=3DMsoNormal>To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit =
the list's
web interface at: http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html and =
select
"Join or leave the list" <o:p></o:p></p>
<p>Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/ <o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
</body>
</html>
To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web interface
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and select "Join or leave the list"
<p>
Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/
------_=_NextPart_001_01C89C28.AFFC559B--
------------------------------
Date: Fri, 11 Apr 2008 19:03:20 -0700
From: Dawn Burnette <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Re: relative advantages of marking sentences versus diagramming
<table cellspacing='0' cellpadding='0' border='0' ><tr><td style='font:
inherit;'>When I teach professional development training for Daily Grammar
Practice, someone always asks why we need to diagram. Here's my
explanation: Diagramming is a graphic organizer, and, yes, research
does show that graphic organizers are beneficial. And here's my analogy
for comparing sentence "marking" and sentence diagramming: When we mark
the sentence (or identify its parts), that's like taking all the pieces
of a puzzle and lining them up on the table. You can see they're all
there, and you know that they'll all fit together, but you can't see
the actual picture. Diagramming is like putting the pieces together to
make the picture. The important thing is that the two practices go hand
in hand. Diagramming without parsing leaves kids wondering what the
point is. Parsing without diagramming leaves them without a full
picture. While we don't all need both methods, many people do! I've
experienced eureka experience after eureka experience by using both.<br>
Hope that helps,<br>
Dawn Burnette<br><br>--- On <b>Fri, 4/11/08, Scott Woods
<i><[log in to unmask]></i></b> wrote:<br><blockquote
style="border-left: 2px solid rgb(16, 16, 255); margin-left: 5px;
padding-left: 5px;">From: Scott Woods
<[log in to unmask]><br>Subject: relative advantages of marking
sentences versus diagramming<br>To: [log in to unmask]<br>Date:
Friday, April 11, 2008, 1:23 AM<br><br><div id="yiv579785500"><div>Dear
Listmates,</div> <div>I
would appreciate some comment on the relative advantages of marking
sentences (following a KISS Grammar method or similar) versus
diagramming sentences in the Reed-Kellogg style (or variant) for the
purposes of teaching and learning how to understand sentence
structure. The students are diligent upper elementary and middle
school students performing at or above grade level; the teachers
believe that grammar instruction is important; the administration lets
the teachers do what they want, provided their students continue to
outperform other schools. Should students learn
diagramming? What advantages does it bring them that marking will
not? When should they learn diagramming? Does anyone have
any experience with using either both methods or diagramming with this
age group? Is there any relevant research? </div> <div>Thanks,
</div> <div>Scott
Woods</div><p> __________________________________________________<br>Do You
Yahoo!?<br>Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around
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</p><p>
Visit ATEG's web site at
http://ateg.org/</p></div></blockquote></td></tr></table><br>_______________
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<p>
Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/
------------------------------
Date: Fri, 11 Apr 2008 21:09:07 -0500
From: rbetting <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Re: relative advantages of marking sentences versus diagramming
This is a multi-part message in MIME format.
------=_NextPart_000_0081_01C89C18.47C32A60
Content-Type: text/plain;
charset="iso-8859-1"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Herb,=20
I have good memories of diagramming too, and I taught it for years in =
high schools. The right brain functioning. I never taught KISS but have =
read some of the literature. It seems to focus a bit much on labels =
(which is what members have been discussing) but it alse requires lots =
of use, something that diagrammers sometimes don't. I would still use =
diagrams, generative grammar trees and sentence stratification (test =
sentences and so on too) as tools to show students ways to see and =
describe sentences and their component parts. The list of negatives is =
meant to make a point, I guess, that this activity can become an end in =
itself easily. Florey illustrates with some elegant diagrams.=20
Yup, we're back to the main question: what can and should be used. When =
these activities can be applied to showing students how to use =
structures to make particular kinds of sense in effective communication, =
they can be useful, ought to be used. Seems to me. Students need to be =
shown how. Use doesn't come automatically. Dick Betting=20
----- Original Message -----=20
From: STAHLKE, HERBERT F=20
To: [log in to unmask]
Sent: Friday, April 11, 2008 6:06 PM
Subject: Re: relative advantages of marking sentences versus =
diagramming
Dick,
=20
While I have good memories of diagramming, it's because I was one of =
those students who was good at it. It just made sense and came to me =
easily. I can't argue with litany of criticisms you review. I have, by =
the way, similar enjoyment of and problems with phrase structure trees, =
which I find generally more useful than RK diagrams, if not necessarily =
any clearer, and flawed in other ways although they do structure very =
well.
=20
But I'm bothered by the criticism that either kind of diagramming is =
simply an exercise in geometry. I suspect it was that when I learned it =
and that it's all too often taught in that way: the diagram as an end =
in itself. But any sort of grammar, even without formal diagrams, can =
be taught as an end in itself, and that's the problem many of us have =
with traditional school grammar, that when it's not simply about formal =
correctness it is an end in itself. We classify words into parts of =
speech to classify words into parts of speech. We underline subjects =
once and predicates twice with the same circular goal. The problem with =
teaching grammar is most frequently that we don't know why we teach what =
we teach, and so we can't provide a curricular justification that will =
pass muster with any competent curriculum committee. We never explain =
the role of subject and predicate in expressing meaning effectively and =
in structuring discourse.
=20
Asking why we teach what we teach will lead to answers that actually =
do deal with communication, spoken and written. Doing so will make us =
ask what developing writers need to know about their grammatical options =
so that they choose them with as much knowledge and care that we would =
like them to make other choices. =20
=20
I disagree strongly with Florey's claim that you cite, "But there are =
other places to acquire it than in sixth-grade grammar classes. . . . =
The fact is that a lot of people don't need diagramming or anything =
else: they pick up grammar and syntax effortlessly through their reading =
. . . and they do things correctly without knowing why." This is the =
standard confusion of grammar as what children learn in their first five =
years as they acquire most of the first language and grammar as the =
anatomy and physiology of language that defines the rhetorical choices =
we can make as we speak or write. There is no question that children =
master the former sort of grammar. The problem is that they don't =
typically learn at the same time how to use that knowledge to good =
rhetorical effect without overt teaching. It's rather like saying that =
because children learn to run and swing their arms without overt =
teaching that they don't have to taught to play tennis, an activity in =
which directed and effective use of these natural motions is critical.
=20
So we're back to the questions that continue to both plague and drive =
groups like ATEG: what should we teach and how should we teach it?
=20
Herb
From: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar =
[mailto:[log in to unmask]] On Behalf Of rbetting
Sent: 2008-04-11 09:06
To: [log in to unmask]
Subject: Re: relative advantages of marking sentences versus =
diagramming
=20
You might consider my analysis of diagramming from Grammar Today:
The question is whether diagramming helps, whether students understand =
the functions of the various parts of sentences better with diagrams. =
Does it help to put flag and Camping on a line where the system says =
subjects belong? Students could analyze the sentences and come to the =
same conclusion without a diagram. What a diagram does illustrate is =
that Camping, normally a verb, is used as a subject. But students can =
also understand that without a diagram. They've used those kinds of =
nominatives for years. For visual learners, the diagram may help. =
Diagrams appear neat and attractive for some, frown formidably for =
others. Several problems with diagramming: (1) On some level the lines =
and sticks appear to make clear the relationship of the parts, but =
diagrams do almost nothing to explain meaning, while they oversimplify =
language structures. (2) Diagrams in textbooks use someone else's =
sentences. Few difficult ones. None that cannot be parsed neatly. (3) =
Diagrams are not predictive; that is, they don't help students produce =
sentences of their own. (4) Diagrams fail to distinguish between form =
and function; that is, any word or phrase in subject position must be a =
nominative. Many different kinds of structures can be nominatives: =
gerunds, infinitives, prepositional phrases, noun clauses. (5) Badly =
worded and ungrammatical sentences can be diagrammed as neatly as =
well-worded sentences can. (6) Diagramming as an exercise can become an =
end in itself. (7) Sentences are isolated from context, never the case =
in actual use. (8) Diagrams fail to make a connection between knowing =
how to do them and being able to speak and write more effectively. =
Diagrams don't automatically help students improve their style. They may =
even prevent students from exploring their own linguistic creativity.=20
In Teacher Man Frank McCourt explains his inability to teach =
diagramming, the "structure and Euclidian beauty of it." He admits, "I =
tried but failed. I made lines vertical, horizontal, slanting, and then =
I stood, adrift at the blackboard, till a Chinese student volunteered to =
take over and teach the teacher what the teacher should have known."
In her recent book Sister Bernadette's Barking Dog Kitty Burns Florey =
concludes that diagramming, while a joyful activity for some students, =
will not improve their writing or speaking. "Few people would deny that =
students need to master grammar in order to write decently," Florey =
writes. "But there are other places to acquire it than in sixth-grade =
grammar classes. . . . The fact is that a lot of people don't need =
diagramming or anything else: they pick up grammar and syntax =
effortlessly through their reading . . . and they do things correctly =
without knowing why."
=20
Grammar Today 84 Chapter 6. The Beginnings of Traditional Grammar =
Dick Betting =20
----- Original Message -----=20
From: Scott Woods=20
To: [log in to unmask]
Sent: Friday, April 11, 2008 12:23 AM
Subject: relative advantages of marking sentences versus diagramming
=20
Dear Listmates,
I would appreciate some comment on the relative advantages of =
marking sentences (following a KISS Grammar method or similar) versus =
diagramming sentences in the Reed-Kellogg style (or variant) for the =
purposes of teaching and learning how to understand sentence structure. =
The students are diligent upper elementary and middle school students =
performing at or above grade level; the teachers believe that grammar =
instruction is important; the administration lets the teachers do what =
they want, provided their students continue to outperform other schools. =
Should students learn diagramming? What advantages does it bring them =
that marking will not? When should they learn diagramming? Does anyone =
have any experience with using either both methods or diagramming with =
this age group? Is there any relevant research? =20
Thanks,=20
Scott Woods
__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around=20
http://mail.yahoo.com To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please =
visit the list's web interface at: =
http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html and select "Join or leave =
the list"=20
Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/
To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web =
interface at: http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html and select =
"Join or leave the list"=20
Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/=20
To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web =
interface at: http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html and select =
"Join or leave the list"=20
Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/=20
To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web interface
at:
http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html
and select "Join or leave the list"
Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/
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<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>Herb, </FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>I have good memories of diagramming =
too, and I=20
taught it for years in high schools. The right brain functioning. I =
never=20
taught KISS but have read some of the literature. It seems to focus a =
bit much=20
on labels (which is what members have been discussing) but it =
alse=20
requires lots of use, something that diagrammers sometimes don't. I =
would still=20
use diagrams, generative grammar trees and sentence stratification (test =
sentences and so on too) as tools to show students ways to see and =
describe=20
sentences and their component parts. The list of negatives is meant to =
make a=20
point, I guess, that this activity can become an end in itself easily. =
Florey=20
illustrates with some elegant diagrams. </FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>Yup, we're back to the main question: =
what can and=20
should be used. When these activities can be applied to showing students =
how to=20
use structures to make particular kinds of sense in effective =
communication,=20
they can be useful, ought to be used. Seems to me. Students need to be =
shown=20
how. Use doesn't come automatically. Dick Betting </FONT></DIV>
<BLOCKQUOTE dir=3Dltr=20
style=3D"PADDING-RIGHT: 0px; PADDING-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; =
BORDER-LEFT: #000000 2px solid; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px">
<DIV style=3D"FONT: 10pt arial">----- Original Message ----- </DIV>
<DIV=20
style=3D"BACKGROUND: #e4e4e4; FONT: 10pt arial; font-color: =
black"><B>From:</B>=20
<A [log in to unmask] href=3D"mailto:[log in to unmask]">STAHLKE, =
HERBERT=20
F</A> </DIV>
<DIV style=3D"FONT: 10pt arial"><B>To:</B> <A =
[log in to unmask]
href=3D"mailto:[log in to unmask]">[log in to unmask]</A> =
</DIV>
<DIV style=3D"FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Sent:</B> Friday, April 11, 2008 =
6:06=20
PM</DIV>
<DIV style=3D"FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Subject:</B> Re: relative =
advantages of=20
marking sentences versus diagramming</DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2></FONT><FONT face=3DArial =
size=3D2></FONT><BR></DIV>
<DIV class=3DSection1>
<P class=3DMsoNormal><SPAN=20
style=3D"FONT-SIZE: 11pt; COLOR: #1f497d; FONT-FAMILY: =
'Calibri','sans-serif'">Dick,<o:p></o:p></SPAN></P>
<P class=3DMsoNormal><SPAN=20
style=3D"FONT-SIZE: 11pt; COLOR: #1f497d; FONT-FAMILY: =
'Calibri','sans-serif'"><o:p> </o:p></SPAN></P>
<P class=3DMsoNormal><SPAN=20
style=3D"FONT-SIZE: 11pt; COLOR: #1f497d; FONT-FAMILY: =
'Calibri','sans-serif'">While=20
I have good memories of diagramming, it=92s because I was one of those =
students=20
who was good at it. It just made sense and came to me =
easily. I=20
can=92t argue with litany of criticisms you review. I have, by =
the way,=20
similar enjoyment of and problems with phrase structure trees, which I =
find=20
generally more useful than RK diagrams, if not necessarily any =
clearer, and=20
flawed in other ways although they do structure very=20
well.<o:p></o:p></SPAN></P>
<P class=3DMsoNormal><SPAN=20
style=3D"FONT-SIZE: 11pt; COLOR: #1f497d; FONT-FAMILY: =
'Calibri','sans-serif'"><o:p> </o:p></SPAN></P>
<P class=3DMsoNormal><SPAN=20
style=3D"FONT-SIZE: 11pt; COLOR: #1f497d; FONT-FAMILY: =
'Calibri','sans-serif'">But=20
I=92m bothered by the criticism that either kind of diagramming is =
simply an=20
exercise in geometry. I suspect it was that when I learned it =
and that=20
it=92s all too often taught in that way: the diagram as an end =
in=20
itself. But any sort of grammar, even without formal diagrams, =
can be=20
taught as an end in itself, and that=92s the problem many of us have =
with=20
traditional school grammar, that when it=92s not simply about formal =
correctness=20
it is an end in itself. We classify words into parts of speech =
to=20
classify words into parts of speech. We underline subjects once =
and=20
predicates twice with the same circular goal. The problem with =
teaching=20
grammar is most frequently that we don=92t know why we teach what we =
teach, and=20
so we can=92t provide a curricular justification that will pass muster =
with any=20
competent curriculum committee. We never explain the role of =
subject and=20
predicate in expressing meaning effectively and in structuring=20
discourse.<o:p></o:p></SPAN></P>
<P class=3DMsoNormal><SPAN=20
style=3D"FONT-SIZE: 11pt; COLOR: #1f497d; FONT-FAMILY: =
'Calibri','sans-serif'"><o:p> </o:p></SPAN></P>
<P class=3DMsoNormal><SPAN=20
style=3D"FONT-SIZE: 11pt; COLOR: #1f497d; FONT-FAMILY: =
'Calibri','sans-serif'">Asking=20
why we teach what we teach will lead to answers that actually do deal =
with=20
communication, spoken and written. Doing so will make us ask =
what=20
developing writers need to know about their grammatical options so =
that they=20
choose them with as much knowledge and care that we would like them to =
make=20
other choices. <o:p></o:p></SPAN></P>
<P class=3DMsoNormal><SPAN=20
style=3D"FONT-SIZE: 11pt; COLOR: #1f497d; FONT-FAMILY: =
'Calibri','sans-serif'"><o:p> </o:p></SPAN></P>
<P class=3DMsoNormal><SPAN=20
style=3D"FONT-SIZE: 11pt; COLOR: #1f497d; FONT-FAMILY: =
'Calibri','sans-serif'">I=20
disagree strongly with Florey=92s claim that you cite, =93</SPAN><SPAN =
class=3Da2><SPAN style=3D"FONT-SIZE: 11pt">But there are other places =
to acquire=20
it than in sixth-grade grammar classes. . . . The fact is that a lot =
of people=20
don=92t need diagramming or anything else: they pick up grammar and =
syntax=20
effortlessly through their reading . . . and they do things correctly =
without=20
knowing why.=94 </SPAN></SPAN><SPAN=20
style=3D"FONT-SIZE: 11pt; COLOR: #1f497d; FONT-FAMILY: =
'Calibri','sans-serif'">This=20
is the standard confusion of grammar as what children learn in their =
first=20
five years as they acquire most of the first language and grammar as =
the=20
anatomy and physiology of language that defines the rhetorical choices =
we can=20
make as we speak or write. There is no question that children =
master the=20
former sort of grammar. The problem is that they don=92t =
typically learn=20
at the same time how to use that knowledge to good rhetorical effect =
without=20
overt teaching. It=92s rather like saying that because children =
learn to=20
run and swing their arms without overt teaching that they don=92t have =
to taught=20
to play tennis, an activity in which directed and effective use of =
these=20
natural motions is critical.<o:p></o:p></SPAN></P>
<P class=3DMsoNormal><SPAN=20
style=3D"FONT-SIZE: 11pt; COLOR: #1f497d; FONT-FAMILY: =
'Calibri','sans-serif'"><o:p> </o:p></SPAN></P>
<P class=3DMsoNormal><SPAN=20
style=3D"FONT-SIZE: 11pt; COLOR: #1f497d; FONT-FAMILY: =
'Calibri','sans-serif'">So=20
we=92re back to the questions that continue to both plague and drive =
groups like=20
ATEG: what should we teach and how should we teach=20
it?<o:p></o:p></SPAN></P>
<P class=3DMsoNormal><SPAN=20
style=3D"FONT-SIZE: 11pt; COLOR: #1f497d; FONT-FAMILY: =
'Calibri','sans-serif'"><o:p> </o:p></SPAN></P>
<P class=3DMsoNormal><SPAN=20
style=3D"FONT-SIZE: 11pt; COLOR: #1f497d; FONT-FAMILY: =
'Calibri','sans-serif'">Herb<o:p></o:p></SPAN></P>
<DIV>
<DIV=20
style=3D"BORDER-RIGHT: medium none; PADDING-RIGHT: 0in; BORDER-TOP: =
#b5c4df 1pt solid; PADDING-LEFT: 0in; PADDING-BOTTOM: 0in; BORDER-LEFT: =
medium none; PADDING-TOP: 3pt; BORDER-BOTTOM: medium none">
<P class=3DMsoNormal><B><SPAN=20
style=3D"FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: =
'Tahoma','sans-serif'">From:</SPAN></B><SPAN=20
style=3D"FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: 'Tahoma','sans-serif'"> =
Assembly for the=20
Teaching of English Grammar [mailto:[log in to unmask]] <B>On =
Behalf Of=20
</B>rbetting<BR><B>Sent:</B> 2008-04-11 09:06<BR><B>To:</B>=20
[log in to unmask]<BR><B>Subject:</B> Re: relative advantages of =
marking=20
sentences versus diagramming<o:p></o:p></SPAN></P></DIV></DIV>
<P class=3DMsoNormal><o:p> </o:p></P>
<DIV>
<P class=3DMsoNormal><SPAN=20
style=3D"FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: 'Arial','sans-serif'">You might =
consider=20
my analysis of diagramming from Grammar =
Today:</SPAN><o:p></o:p></P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=3Dpa15 style=3D"PAGE-BREAK-BEFORE: always; MARGIN: 0in 0in =
0pt"><SPAN=20
class=3Da2><SPAN style=3D"FONT-SIZE: 10pt">The question is whether =
diagramming=20
helps, whether students understand the functions of the various parts =
of=20
sentences better with diagrams. Does it help to put <B><I>flag =
</I></B>and=20
<B><I>Camping </I></B>on a line where the system says subjects belong? =
Students could analyze the sentences and come to the same conclusion =
without a=20
diagram. What a diagram does illustrate is that <B><I>Camping</I></B>, =
normally a verb, is used as a subject. But students can also =
understand that=20
without a diagram. They=92ve used those kinds of nominatives for =
years. For=20
visual learners, the diagram may help. Diagrams appear neat and =
attractive for=20
some, frown formidably for others. </SPAN></SPAN><SPAN =
class=3Da2><B><SPAN=20
style=3D"FONT-SIZE: 11pt">Several problems with=20
diagramming</SPAN></B></SPAN><SPAN class=3Da2><SPAN =
style=3D"FONT-SIZE: 11pt">:=20
(1) On some level the lines and sticks appear to make clear the =
relationship=20
of the parts, but diagrams do almost nothing to explain meaning, while =
they=20
oversimplify language structures. (2) Diagrams in textbooks use =
someone else=92s=20
sentences. Few difficult ones. None that cannot be parsed neatly. (3) =
Diagrams=20
are not predictive; that is, they don=92t help students produce =
sentences of=20
their own. (4) Diagrams fail to distinguish between form and function; =
that=20
is, any word or phrase in subject position must be a nominative. Many=20
different kinds of structures can be nominatives: gerunds, =
infinitives,=20
prepositional phrases, noun clauses. (5) Badly worded and =
ungrammatical=20
sentences can be diagrammed as neatly as well-worded sentences can. =
(6)=20
Diagramming as an exercise can become an end in itself. (7) Sentences =
are=20
isolated from context, never the case in actual use. (8) Diagrams fail =
to make=20
a connection between knowing how to do them and being able to speak =
and write=20
more effectively. Diagrams don=92t automatically help students improve =
their=20
style. They may even prevent students from exploring their own =
linguistic=20
creativity. </SPAN></SPAN><SPAN style=3D"FONT-SIZE: =
11pt"><o:p></o:p></SPAN></P>
<P class=3Dpa15 style=3D"MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt; TEXT-INDENT: =
0.5in"><SPAN=20
class=3Da2><SPAN style=3D"FONT-SIZE: 10.5pt">In <B><I>Teacher Man =
</I></B>Frank=20
McCourt explains his inability to teach diagramming, the =93structure =
and=20
Euclidian beauty of it.=94 He admits, =93I tried but failed. I made =
lines=20
vertical, horizontal, slanting, and then I stood, adrift at the =
blackboard,=20
till a Chinese student volunteered to take over and teach the teacher =
what the=20
teacher should have known.=94</SPAN></SPAN><SPAN=20
style=3D"FONT-SIZE: 10.5pt"><o:p></o:p></SPAN></P>
<P class=3DMsoNormal><SPAN class=3Da2><SPAN style=3D"FONT-SIZE: =
11pt">In her recent=20
book <B><I>Sister Bernadette=92s Barking Dog </I></B>Kitty Burns =
Florey=20
concludes that diagramming, while a joyful activity for some students, =
will=20
not improve their writing or speaking. =93Few people would deny that =
students=20
need to master grammar in order to write decently,=94 Florey writes. =
=93But there=20
are other places to acquire it than in sixth-grade grammar classes. . =
. . The=20
fact is that a lot of people don=92t need diagramming or anything =
else: they=20
pick up grammar and syntax effortlessly through their reading . . . =
and they=20
do things correctly without knowing =
why.=94</SPAN></SPAN><o:p></o:p></P>
<P class=3Dpa15 style=3D"MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt; TEXT-INDENT: =
0.5in"><SPAN=20
style=3D"FONT-SIZE: 11pt; COLOR: black"> <o:p></o:p></SPAN></P>
<P class=3Ddefault style=3D"MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt"><SPAN=20
style=3D"FONT-SIZE: 11pt">Grammar Today </SPAN><SPAN=20
style=3D"FONT-SIZE: 11.5pt">84 </SPAN><I><SPAN=20
style=3D"FONT-SIZE: 11pt; FONT-FAMILY: 'Lucida =
Bright','serif'">Chapter 6. The=20
Beginnings of Traditional Grammar Dick=20
Betting </SPAN></I><SPAN=20
style=3D"FONT-SIZE: 11pt; FONT-FAMILY: 'Lucida =
Bright','serif'"><o:p></o:p></SPAN></P></DIV>
<BLOCKQUOTE=20
style=3D"BORDER-RIGHT: medium none; PADDING-RIGHT: 0in; BORDER-TOP: =
medium none; PADDING-LEFT: 4pt; PADDING-BOTTOM: 0in; MARGIN: 5pt 0in 5pt =
3.75pt; BORDER-LEFT: black 1.5pt solid; PADDING-TOP: 0in; BORDER-BOTTOM: =
medium none">
<DIV>
<P class=3DMsoNormal><SPAN=20
style=3D"FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: 'Arial','sans-serif'">----- =
Original=20
Message ----- <o:p></o:p></SPAN></P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=3DMsoNormal style=3D"BACKGROUND: #e4e4e4"><B><SPAN=20
style=3D"FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: =
'Arial','sans-serif'">From:</SPAN></B><SPAN=20
style=3D"FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: 'Arial','sans-serif'"> <A=20
[log in to unmask] =
href=3D"mailto:[log in to unmask]">Scott=20
Woods</A> <o:p></o:p></SPAN></P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=3DMsoNormal><B><SPAN=20
style=3D"FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: =
'Arial','sans-serif'">To:</SPAN></B><SPAN=20
style=3D"FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: 'Arial','sans-serif'"> <A=20
[log in to unmask]
=
href=3D"mailto:[log in to unmask]">[log in to unmask]</A>=20
<o:p></o:p></SPAN></P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=3DMsoNormal><B><SPAN=20
style=3D"FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: =
'Arial','sans-serif'">Sent:</SPAN></B><SPAN=20
style=3D"FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: 'Arial','sans-serif'"> =
Friday, April=20
11, 2008 12:23 AM<o:p></o:p></SPAN></P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=3DMsoNormal><B><SPAN=20
style=3D"FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: =
'Arial','sans-serif'">Subject:</SPAN></B><SPAN=20
style=3D"FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: 'Arial','sans-serif'"> =
relative=20
advantages of marking sentences versus=20
diagramming<o:p></o:p></SPAN></P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=3DMsoNormal><o:p> </o:p></P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=3DMsoNormal>Dear Listmates,<o:p></o:p></P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=3DMsoNormal>I would appreciate some comment on the relative =
advantages of marking sentences (following a KISS Grammar method or =
similar)=20
versus diagramming sentences in the Reed-Kellogg style (or variant) =
for the=20
purposes of teaching and learning how to understand sentence=20
structure. The students are diligent upper elementary and =
middle=20
school students performing at or above grade level; the teachers =
believe=20
that grammar instruction is important; the administration lets the =
teachers=20
do what they want, provided their students continue to outperform =
other=20
schools. Should students learn diagramming? What =
advantages does=20
it bring them that marking will not? When should they learn=20
diagramming? Does anyone have any experience with using =
either=20
both methods or diagramming with this age group? Is there any =
relevant=20
research? <o:p></o:p></P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=3DMsoNormal>Thanks, <o:p></o:p></P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=3DMsoNormal>Scott Woods<o:p></o:p></P></DIV>
<P>__________________________________________________<BR>Do You=20
Yahoo!?<BR>Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection =
around=20
<BR>http://mail.yahoo.com To join or leave this LISTSERV list, =
please visit=20
the list's web interface at: =
http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html=20
and select "Join or leave the list" <o:p></o:p></P>
<P>Visit ATEG's web site at =
http://ateg.org/<o:p></o:p></P></BLOCKQUOTE>
<P class=3DMsoNormal>To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit =
the=20
list's web interface at: http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html =
and=20
select "Join or leave the list" <o:p></o:p></P>
<P>Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/ <o:p></o:p></P></DIV>To =
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leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web interface at:=20
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list"=20
<P>Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/ =
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