"Her English is so perfect, which clearly indicates that she is foreign.
For foreign people are instructed in the English language while the English
people are'n.
In America they haven't used it for years."
I am a grammarian by training and choice. I have studied grammar at the
graduate level in
English, French, Spanish, Latin, and Koine Greek and taught all five as well
as English as
a foreign language to native speakers of French, Provencal, Spanish
(including native speakers
from numerous Hispano-American countries) and have studied grammar in
Sanscrit, German, Russian,
Portuguese, and Irish Gaelic. When I am teaching grammar, I target my
audience. Any grammar is
prescriptive because it has rules. My Portuguese instructor emphasized
colloquial Brazilian
because most student were interested in visiting Brazil or in talking or
writing to relatives
who spoke Brazilian Portuguese. Fortunately, the book also covered formal
Portuguese grammar
that would help me in reading Peninsular Portuguese documents and academic
books and papers in
my primary field of interest (medieval anthroponomastics). My second year
of teaching (secondary
level) I encountered a new book by Martin Joos called The Five Clocks. Any
student who ever
questioned why I was teaching English that did not correspond to that
student's idiolect was
assigned a copy of the book and required to make a book report. I bought
the book in bulk in
case of the book's being lost. I never had a problem with complaints about
prescriptive grammar
from students who were exposed to the Five Clocks. I suggested the book to
a fellow professor
who had criticized my teaching of English composition. He refused to read
the book because he
claimed to have nothing left to learn about grammar. Verbum sap.
There are intelligent learned professors (e.g., Herb) who disagree with me
on the degree to which
students should be required to use formal grammar. We can disagree without
"hissy fits" and name-
calling (e.g., Messianic, pseudoscientist). Having to resort to such
infantile tactics is evidence
pro se of a lack of a logical ground on which to stand.
Scott
-----Original Message-----
From: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar
[mailto:[log in to unmask]] On Behalf Of ATEG automatic digest system
Sent: Wednesday, November 24, 2010 12:00 AM
To: [log in to unmask]
Subject: ATEG Digest - 22 Nov 2010 to 23 Nov 2010 (#2010-205)
There are 12 messages totalling 3719 lines in this issue.
Topics of the day:
1. grammar term definitions (8)
2. Approaching Grammar as Art, Science, or Engineering
3. Susan's crazy 'had' guy (2)
4. Susan's crazy 'had' guy = Tom Joad
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----------------------------------------------------------------------
Date: Tue, 23 Nov 2010 06:11:23 -0600
From: Eduard Hanganu <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Re: grammar term definitions
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Susan,
All right, let's take one of your claims. Did you claim that "grammatical
categories" are "subjective"? What is the basis of your statement? Can most
of the words in a language be classified based on commmon characteristics?
This is taxonomy. Is the classification of plants in groups scientific? So,
what is the difference?
Eduard
----- Original Message -----
From: Susan van Druten <[log in to unmask]>
Date: Monday, November 22, 2010 16:49
Subject: Re: grammar term definitions
To: [log in to unmask]
> Eduard,
> Isn't saying I have made "unsubstantiated claim" an
> unsubstantiated claim? No offense intended.
> Susan
>
> On Nov 22, 2010, at 6:15 AM, Eduard Hanganu wrote:
>
> > Susan,
> >
> > You have been making some odd and unsubstantiated claims on
> this thread. Just curious: Are you familiar with any other
> languages than English? And what are your academic credentials?
> No offense intended.
> >
> > Eduard
> >
> > ----- Original Message -----
> > From: Susan van Druten <[log in to unmask]>
> > Date: Sunday, November 21, 2010 21:03
> > Subject: Re: grammar term definitions
> > To: [log in to unmask]
> >
> > > On Nov 21, 2010, at 7:39 PM, Craig Hancock wrote:
> > > > Do you believe that dictionaries can't be scientific?
> > >
> > > Do you believe that discographies can't be scientific?
> > >
> > > > Prescriptive grammarians often seem to have a messianic
> > > passion behind
> > > > their activities. It hardly seems scientific.
> > >
> > > Correct. Prescriptive grammarians are
> > > pseudoscientists. Messianic means you think you
> know
> > > what is "truth" and right for all people when you don't
> because
> > > other people have a different "truth." Scientists
> aren't
> > > messianic, yet they tell Truth.
> > >
> > > What Truth do grammarians have to tell?
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > >>> If the main points you are trying to make are...
> > > >>
> > > >> In this thread I have had only one main point: As a
> > > field of inquiry,
> > > >> grammar is not science.
> > > >>
> > > >> I know that you understand the stupidity of believing
> > > prescriptive grammar
> > > >> is The Way. But if you believe grammar is
> ultimately
> > > scientific, then you
> > > >> contradict yourself. Ultimately grammar is
> > > democratic. But science
> > > >> doesn't vote.
> > > >>
> > > >> That crazy "had" guy on this list demands we all follow a
> > > scientific,>> prescriptive rule he learned once. Most
> of
> > > us laugh, but those of you who
> > > >> believe grammar is science, can't laugh.
> Crazy
> > > "had" guy puts you, the
> > > >> scientific grammarian, in a bind. Mediator Girl
> comes
> > > in and says, "You,
> > > >> drop the lab coat. And, you, drop your
> dogma."
> > > When you insists your
> > > >> unscientific beliefs are real, you create extremists who
> > > refuse to take
> > > >> you metaphorically (because you deny the metaphor).
> > > Maybe if you come
> > > >> clean about the lack of science, crazy "had" guy could
> move
> > > on. The 72
> > > >> virgins aren't science. There's no reward for
> beliefs
> > > that aren't real.
> > > >>
> > > >>
> > > >> On Nov 21, 2010, at 5:10 PM, Craig Hancock wrote:
> > > >>
> > > >>> Susan,
> > > >>> If the main points you are trying to make
> are
> > > that grammar should not
> > > >>> be entirely prescriptive and that prescriptive
> grammarians
> > > should not
> > > >>> claim scientific certainty behind their prescriptive
> rules,
> > > I am happy
> > > >>> to agree. Apparently, we have very different ideas about
> > > science. To
> > > >>> me, a scientist observes the world and tries to make
> sense
> > > out of it.
> > > >>> He/she may have very human values that drive that--a
> desire
> > > to cure
> > > >>> cancer, for example--but those are not the science. I
> think
> > > there is
> > > >>> room for patient observation and disciplined inquiry in
> the
> > > study of
> > > >>> language. We should understand how it works apart from
> > > trying to
> > > >>> control other people's use of it.
> > > >>>
> > > >>> Craig
> > > >>>
> > > >>>
> > > >>> On Nov 21, 2010, at 4:25 PM, Craig Hancock wrote:
> > > >>>>> I agree that grammar stops being a science when it
> becomes
> > > narrowly>>>>> prescriptive.
> > > >>>>
> > > >>>> You have this completely turned around. Science
> is
> > > "prescriptive.">>>>
> > > >>>> Those who try to put prescriptive rules and laws on
> > > language are acting
> > > >>>> as
> > > >>>> though grammar is a science when it clearly is
> not.
> > > Why do we belittle
> > > >>>> them? Because they don't get it; grammar is not
> > > science. Your
> > > >>>> insistence
> > > >>>> that grammar is science, means you believe grammar
> ought to be
> > > >>>> completely
> > > >>>> prescriptive. If a scientific law only most of
> the
> > > time follows the
> > > >>>> law,
> > > >>>> it is pseudoscience. Science demands complete
> obedience.> > >>>>
> > > >>>> We can rail all we want about how unfair it is that the
> > > cute fawn with
> > > >>>> the
> > > >>>> damaged foot will be the wolf's target, but the world
> works
> > > without our
> > > >>>> emotions. Survival of the fittest doesn't care
> about
> > > anything but
> > > >>>> their
> > > >>>> ability to survive.
> > > >>>> To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the
> > > list's web
> > > >>>> interface
> > > >>>> at:
> > > >>>>
> http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html> > >>>> and select
> "Join or leave the list"
> > > >>>>
> > > >>>> Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/
> > > >>>>
> > > >>>
> > > >>> To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the
> list's web
> > > >>> interface at:
> > > >>>
> http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html> > >>> and select
> "Join or leave the list"
> > > >>>
> > > >>> Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/
> > > >>
> > > >> To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the
> list's
> > > web interface
> > > >> at:
> > > >>
> > > http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html>> and select
> "Join
> > > or leave the list"
> > > >>
> > > >> Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/
> > > >>
> > > >
> > > > To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the
> list's
> > > web interface at:
> > > >
> > > http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html> and select
> "Join
> > > or leave the list"
> > > >
> > > > Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/
> > >
> > > To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's
> web
> > > interface at:
> > >
> http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html> > and select
> "Join or leave the list"
> > >
> > > Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/
> > >
> > To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's
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> and select "Join or leave the list"
> > Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/
> >
>
>
> To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web
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> Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/
>
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=3CDIV=3ESusan=2C=3C/DIV=3E
=3CDIV=3E=26nbsp=3B=3C/DIV=3E
=3CDIV=3EAll right=2C let=27s take one of your claims=2E Did you claim t=
hat =22grammatical categories=22 are =22subjective=22=3F What is the bas=
is of your statement=3F Can most of the words=26nbsp=3Bin a language be =
classified based=26nbsp=3B on commmon characteristics=3F This is taxonom=
y=2E Is the classification of plants in groups scientific=3F So=2C what =
is the difference=3F=3C/DIV=3E
=3CDIV=3E=26nbsp=3B=3C/DIV=3E
=3CDIV=3EEduard =3C/DIV=3E
=3CDIV=3E=26nbsp=3B=3C/DIV=3E
=3CDIV=3E=3CBR=3E----- Original Message -----=3CBR=3EFrom=3A Susan van D=
ruten =26lt=3Bbosvd=40CPINTERNET=2ECOM=26gt=3B=3CBR=3EDate=3A Monday=2C =
November 22=2C 2010 16=3A49=3CBR=3ESubject=3A Re=3A grammar term definit=
ions=3CBR=3ETo=3A ATEG=40LISTSERV=2EMUOHIO=2EEDU=3CBR=3E=3CBR=3E=26gt=3B=
Eduard=2C=3CBR=3E=26gt=3B Isn=27t saying I have made =22unsubstantiated=
claim=22 an =3CBR=3E=26gt=3B unsubstantiated claim=3F=26nbsp=3B No offe=
nse intended=2E=3CBR=3E=26gt=3B Susan=3CBR=3E=26gt=3B =3CBR=3E=26gt=3B O=
n Nov 22=2C 2010=2C at 6=3A15 AM=2C Eduard Hanganu wrote=3A=3CBR=3E=26gt=
=3B =3CBR=3E=26gt=3B =26gt=3B Susan=2C=3CBR=3E=26gt=3B =26gt=3B=26nbsp=3B=
=3CBR=3E=26gt=3B =26gt=3B You have been making some odd and unsubstanti=
ated claims on =3CBR=3E=26gt=3B this thread=2E Just curious=3A Are you f=
amiliar with any other =3CBR=3E=26gt=3B languages than English=3F And wh=
at are your academic credentials=3F =3CBR=3E=26gt=3B No offense intended=
=2E=3CBR=3E=26gt=3B =26gt=3B=26nbsp=3B =3CBR=3E=26gt=3B =26gt=3B Eduard =
=3CBR=3E=26gt=3B =26gt=3B =3CBR=3E=26gt=3B =26gt=3B ----- Original Messa=
ge -----=3CBR=3E=26gt=3B =26gt=3B From=3A Susan van Druten =26lt=3Bbosvd=
=40CPINTERNET=2ECOM=26gt=3B=3CBR=3E=26gt=3B =26gt=3B Date=3A Sunday=2C N=
ovember 21=2C 2010 21=3A03=3CBR=3E=26gt=3B =26gt=3B Subject=3A Re=3A gra=
mmar term definitions=3CBR=3E=26gt=3B =26gt=3B To=3A ATEG=40LISTSERV=2EM=
UOHIO=2EEDU=3CBR=3E=26gt=3B =26gt=3B =3CBR=3E=26gt=3B =26gt=3B =26gt=3B =
On Nov 21=2C 2010=2C at 7=3A39 PM=2C Craig Hancock wrote=3A=3CBR=3E=26gt=
=3B =26gt=3B =26gt=3B =26gt=3B Do you believe that dictionaries can=27t =
be scientific=3F=3CBR=3E=26gt=3B =26gt=3B =26gt=3B =3CBR=3E=26gt=3B =26g=
t=3B =26gt=3B Do you believe that discographies can=27t be scientific=3F=
=3CBR=3E=26gt=3B =26gt=3B =26gt=3B =3CBR=3E=26gt=3B =26gt=3B =26gt=3B =26=
gt=3B Prescriptive grammarians often seem to have a messianic =3CBR=3E=26=
gt=3B =26gt=3B =26gt=3B passion behind=3CBR=3E=26gt=3B =26gt=3B =26gt=3B=
=26gt=3B their activities=2E It hardly seems scientific=2E=3CBR=3E=26gt=
=3B =26gt=3B =26gt=3B =3CBR=3E=26gt=3B =26gt=3B =26gt=3B Correct=2E=26nb=
sp=3B Prescriptive grammarians are =3CBR=3E=26gt=3B =26gt=3B =26gt=3B ps=
eudoscientists=2E=26nbsp=3B=26nbsp=3B Messianic means you think you =3CB=
R=3E=26gt=3B know =3CBR=3E=26gt=3B =26gt=3B =26gt=3B what is =22truth=22=
and right for all people when you don=27t =3CBR=3E=26gt=3B because =3CB=
R=3E=26gt=3B =26gt=3B =26gt=3B other people have a different =22truth=2E=
=22=26nbsp=3B Scientists =3CBR=3E=26gt=3B aren=27t =3CBR=3E=26gt=3B =26g=
t=3B =26gt=3B messianic=2C yet they tell Truth=2E =3CBR=3E=26gt=3B =26gt=
=3B =26gt=3B =3CBR=3E=26gt=3B =26gt=3B =26gt=3B What Truth do grammarian=
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=26gt=3B =3CBR=3E=26gt=3B =26gt=3B =26gt=3B =3CBR=3E=26gt=3B =26gt=3B =26=
gt=3B =3CBR=3E=26gt=3B =26gt=3B =26gt=3B =3CBR=3E=26gt=3B =26gt=3B =26gt=
=3B =3CBR=3E=26gt=3B =26gt=3B =26gt=3B =3CBR=3E=26gt=3B =26gt=3B =26gt=3B=
=3CBR=3E=26gt=3B =26gt=3B =26gt=3B =3CBR=3E=26gt=3B =26gt=3B =26gt=3B =26=
gt=3B=26gt=3B=26gt=3B=26nbsp=3B=26nbsp=3B If the main points you are try=
ing to make are=2E=2E=2E=3CBR=3E=26gt=3B =26gt=3B =26gt=3B =26gt=3B=26gt=
=3B =3CBR=3E=26gt=3B =26gt=3B =26gt=3B =26gt=3B=26gt=3B In this thread I=
have had only one main point=3A=26nbsp=3B As a =3CBR=3E=26gt=3B =26gt=3B=
=26gt=3B field of inquiry=2C=3CBR=3E=26gt=3B =26gt=3B =26gt=3B =26gt=3B=
=26gt=3B grammar is not science=2E=3CBR=3E=26gt=3B =26gt=3B =26gt=3B =26=
gt=3B=26gt=3B =3CBR=3E=26gt=3B =26gt=3B =26gt=3B =26gt=3B=26gt=3B I know=
that you understand the stupidity of believing =3CBR=3E=26gt=3B =26gt=3B=
=26gt=3B prescriptive grammar=3CBR=3E=26gt=3B =26gt=3B =26gt=3B =26gt=3B=
=26gt=3B is The Way=2E=26nbsp=3B But if you believe grammar is =3CBR=3E=26=
gt=3B ultimately =3CBR=3E=26gt=3B =26gt=3B =26gt=3B scientific=2C then y=
ou=3CBR=3E=26gt=3B =26gt=3B =26gt=3B =26gt=3B=26gt=3B contradict yoursel=
f=2E=26nbsp=3B=26nbsp=3B Ultimately grammar is =3CBR=3E=26gt=3B =26gt=3B=
=26gt=3B democratic=2E=26nbsp=3B But science=3CBR=3E=26gt=3B =26gt=3B =26=
gt=3B =26gt=3B=26gt=3B doesn=27t vote=2E=3CBR=3E=26gt=3B =26gt=3B =26gt=3B=
=26gt=3B=26gt=3B =3CBR=3E=26gt=3B =26gt=3B =26gt=3B =26gt=3B=26gt=3B Th=
at crazy =22had=22 guy on this list demands we all follow a =3CBR=3E=26g=
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e learned once=2E=26nbsp=3B Most =3CBR=3E=26gt=3B of =3CBR=3E=26gt=3B =26=
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=26gt=3B =26gt=3B=26gt=3B believe grammar is science=2C can=27t laugh=2E=
=26nbsp=3B=26nbsp=3B =3CBR=3E=26gt=3B Crazy =3CBR=3E=26gt=3B =26gt=3B =26=
gt=3B =22had=22 guy puts you=2C the=3CBR=3E=26gt=3B =26gt=3B =26gt=3B =26=
gt=3B=26gt=3B scientific grammarian=2C in a bind=2E=26nbsp=3B Mediator G=
irl =3CBR=3E=26gt=3B comes =3CBR=3E=26gt=3B =26gt=3B =26gt=3B in and say=
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he lab coat=2E=26nbsp=3B And=2C you=2C drop your =3CBR=3E=26gt=3B dogma=2E=
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e real=2C you create extremists who =3CBR=3E=26gt=3B =26gt=3B =26gt=3B r=
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aphorically (because you deny the metaphor)=2E=26nbsp=3B =3CBR=3E=26gt=3B=
=26gt=3B =26gt=3B Maybe if you come=3CBR=3E=26gt=3B =26gt=3B =26gt=3B =26=
gt=3B=26gt=3B clean about the lack of science=2C crazy =22had=22 guy cou=
ld =3CBR=3E=26gt=3B move =3CBR=3E=26gt=3B =26gt=3B =26gt=3B on=2E=26nbsp=
=3B The 72=3CBR=3E=26gt=3B =26gt=3B =26gt=3B =26gt=3B=26gt=3B virgins ar=
en=27t science=2E=26nbsp=3B There=27s no reward for =3CBR=3E=26gt=3B bel=
iefs =3CBR=3E=26gt=3B =26gt=3B =26gt=3B that aren=27t real=2E=3CBR=3E=26=
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=3B =26gt=3B=26gt=3B =3CBR=3E=26gt=3B =26gt=3B =26gt=3B =26gt=3B=26gt=3B=
On Nov 21=2C 2010=2C at 5=3A10 PM=2C Craig Hancock wrote=3A=3CBR=3E=26g=
t=3B =26gt=3B =26gt=3B =26gt=3B=26gt=3B =3CBR=3E=26gt=3B =26gt=3B =26gt=3B=
=26gt=3B=26gt=3B=26gt=3B Susan=2C=3CBR=3E=26gt=3B =26gt=3B =26gt=3B =26=
gt=3B=26gt=3B=26gt=3B=26nbsp=3B=26nbsp=3B If the main points you are try=
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gt=3B be entirely prescriptive and that prescriptive =3CBR=3E=26gt=3B gr=
ammarians =3CBR=3E=26gt=3B =26gt=3B =26gt=3B should not=3CBR=3E=26gt=3B =
=26gt=3B =26gt=3B =26gt=3B=26gt=3B=26gt=3B claim scientific certainty be=
hind their prescriptive =3CBR=3E=26gt=3B rules=2C =3CBR=3E=26gt=3B =26gt=
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=26gt=3B to agree=2E Apparently=2C we have very different ideas about =3C=
BR=3E=26gt=3B =26gt=3B =26gt=3B science=2E To=3CBR=3E=26gt=3B =26gt=3B =26=
gt=3B =26gt=3B=26gt=3B=26gt=3B me=2C a scientist observes the world and =
tries to make =3CBR=3E=26gt=3B sense =3CBR=3E=26gt=3B =26gt=3B =26gt=3B =
out of it=2E=3CBR=3E=26gt=3B =26gt=3B =26gt=3B =26gt=3B=26gt=3B=26gt=3B =
He/she may have very human values that drive that--a =3CBR=3E=26gt=3B de=
sire =3CBR=3E=26gt=3B =26gt=3B =26gt=3B to cure=3CBR=3E=26gt=3B =26gt=3B=
=26gt=3B =26gt=3B=26gt=3B=26gt=3B cancer=2C for example--but those are =
not the science=2E I =3CBR=3E=26gt=3B think =3CBR=3E=26gt=3B =26gt=3B =26=
gt=3B there is=3CBR=3E=26gt=3B =26gt=3B =26gt=3B =26gt=3B=26gt=3B=26gt=3B=
room for patient observation and disciplined inquiry in =3CBR=3E=26gt=3B=
the =3CBR=3E=26gt=3B =26gt=3B =26gt=3B study of=3CBR=3E=26gt=3B =26gt=3B=
=26gt=3B =26gt=3B=26gt=3B=26gt=3B language=2E We should understand how =
it works apart from =3CBR=3E=26gt=3B =26gt=3B =26gt=3B trying to=3CBR=3E=
=26gt=3B =26gt=3B =26gt=3B =26gt=3B=26gt=3B=26gt=3B control other people=
=27s use of it=2E=3CBR=3E=26gt=3B =26gt=3B =26gt=3B =26gt=3B=26gt=3B=26g=
t=3B =3CBR=3E=26gt=3B =26gt=3B =26gt=3B =26gt=3B=26gt=3B=26gt=3B Craig=3C=
BR=3E=26gt=3B =26gt=3B =26gt=3B =26gt=3B=26gt=3B=26gt=3B =3CBR=3E=26gt=3B=
=26gt=3B =26gt=3B =26gt=3B=26gt=3B=26gt=3B =3CBR=3E=26gt=3B =26gt=3B =26=
gt=3B =26gt=3B=26gt=3B=26gt=3B On Nov 21=2C 2010=2C at 4=3A25 PM=2C Crai=
g Hancock wrote=3A=3CBR=3E=26gt=3B =26gt=3B =26gt=3B =26gt=3B=26gt=3B=26=
gt=3B=26gt=3B=26gt=3B I agree that grammar stops being a science when it=
=3CBR=3E=26gt=3B becomes =3CBR=3E=26gt=3B =26gt=3B =26gt=3B narrowly=26=
gt=3B=26gt=3B=26gt=3B=26gt=3B=26gt=3B prescriptive=2E=3CBR=3E=26gt=3B =26=
gt=3B =26gt=3B =26gt=3B=26gt=3B=26gt=3B=26gt=3B =3CBR=3E=26gt=3B =26gt=3B=
=26gt=3B =26gt=3B=26gt=3B=26gt=3B=26gt=3B You have this completely turn=
ed around=2E=26nbsp=3B Science =3CBR=3E=26gt=3B is =3CBR=3E=26gt=3B =26g=
t=3B =26gt=3B =22prescriptive=2E=22=26gt=3B=26gt=3B=26gt=3B=26gt=3B =3CB=
R=3E=26gt=3B =26gt=3B =26gt=3B =26gt=3B=26gt=3B=26gt=3B=26gt=3B Those wh=
o try to put prescriptive rules and laws on =3CBR=3E=26gt=3B =26gt=3B =26=
gt=3B language are acting=3CBR=3E=26gt=3B =26gt=3B =26gt=3B =26gt=3B=26g=
t=3B=26gt=3B=26gt=3B as=3CBR=3E=26gt=3B =26gt=3B =26gt=3B =26gt=3B=26gt=3B=
=26gt=3B=26gt=3B though grammar is a science when it clearly is =3CBR=3E=
=26gt=3B not=2E=26nbsp=3B =3CBR=3E=26gt=3B =26gt=3B =26gt=3B Why do we b=
elittle=3CBR=3E=26gt=3B =26gt=3B =26gt=3B =26gt=3B=26gt=3B=26gt=3B=26gt=3B=
them=3F=26nbsp=3B Because they don=27t get it=3B grammar is not =3CBR=3E=
=26gt=3B =26gt=3B =26gt=3B science=2E=26nbsp=3B Your=3CBR=3E=26gt=3B =26=
gt=3B =26gt=3B =26gt=3B=26gt=3B=26gt=3B=26gt=3B insistence=3CBR=3E=26gt=3B=
=26gt=3B =26gt=3B =26gt=3B=26gt=3B=26gt=3B=26gt=3B that grammar is scie=
nce=2C means you believe grammar =3CBR=3E=26gt=3B ought to be=3CBR=3E=26=
gt=3B =26gt=3B =26gt=3B =26gt=3B=26gt=3B=26gt=3B=26gt=3B completely=3CBR=
=3E=26gt=3B =26gt=3B =26gt=3B =26gt=3B=26gt=3B=26gt=3B=26gt=3B prescript=
ive=2E=26nbsp=3B If a scientific law only most of =3CBR=3E=26gt=3B the =3C=
BR=3E=26gt=3B =26gt=3B =26gt=3B time follows the=3CBR=3E=26gt=3B =26gt=3B=
=26gt=3B =26gt=3B=26gt=3B=26gt=3B=26gt=3B law=2C=3CBR=3E=26gt=3B =26gt=3B=
=26gt=3B =26gt=3B=26gt=3B=26gt=3B=26gt=3B it is pseudoscience=2E=26nbsp=
=3B Science demands complete =3CBR=3E=26gt=3B obedience=2E=26gt=3B =26gt=
=3B =26gt=3B=26gt=3B=26gt=3B=26gt=3B =3CBR=3E=26gt=3B =26gt=3B =26gt=3B =
=26gt=3B=26gt=3B=26gt=3B=26gt=3B We can rail all we want about how unfai=
r it is that the =3CBR=3E=26gt=3B =26gt=3B =26gt=3B cute fawn with=3CBR=3E=
=26gt=3B =26gt=3B =26gt=3B =26gt=3B=26gt=3B=26gt=3B=26gt=3B the=3CBR=3E=26=
gt=3B =26gt=3B =26gt=3B =26gt=3B=26gt=3B=26gt=3B=26gt=3B damaged foot wi=
ll be the wolf=27s target=2C but the world =3CBR=3E=26gt=3B works =3CBR=3E=
=26gt=3B =26gt=3B =26gt=3B without our=3CBR=3E=26gt=3B =26gt=3B =26gt=3B=
=26gt=3B=26gt=3B=26gt=3B=26gt=3B emotions=2E=26nbsp=3B Survival of the =
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s web site at http=3A//ateg=2Eorg/=3CBR=3E=26gt=3B =26gt=3B =26gt=3B =3C=
BR=3E=26gt=3B =26gt=3B =26gt=3B To join or leave this LISTSERV list=2C p=
lease visit the list=27s =3CBR=3E=26gt=3B web =3CBR=3E=26gt=3B =26gt=3B =
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bsp=3B=26nbsp=3B=26nbsp=3B=26nbsp=3B =3CBR=3E=26gt=3B http=3A//listserv=2E=
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BR=3E=26gt=3B =26gt=3B =26gt=3B Visit ATEG=27s web site at http=3A//ateg=
=2Eorg/=3CBR=3E=26gt=3B =26gt=3B =26gt=3B=3CBR=3E=26gt=3B =26gt=3B To jo=
in or leave this LISTSERV list=2C please visit the list=27s =3CBR=3E=26g=
t=3B web interface at=3A http=3A//listserv=2Emuohio=2Eedu/archives/ateg=2E=
html =3CBR=3E=26gt=3B and select =22Join or leave the list=22=3CBR=3E=26=
gt=3B =26gt=3B Visit ATEG=27s web site at http=3A//ateg=2Eorg/=3CBR=3E=26=
gt=3B =26gt=3B =3CBR=3E=26gt=3B =3CBR=3E=26gt=3B =3CBR=3E=26gt=3B To joi=
n or leave this LISTSERV list=2C please visit the list=27s web =3CBR=3E=26=
gt=3B interface at=3A=3CBR=3E=26gt=3B =26nbsp=3B=26nbsp=3B=26nbsp=3B=26n=
bsp=3B http=3A//listserv=2Emuohio=2Eedu/archives/ateg=2Ehtml=3CBR=3E=26g=
t=3B and select =22Join or leave the list=22=3CBR=3E=26gt=3B =3CBR=3E=26=
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------------------------------
Date: Tue, 23 Nov 2010 06:18:35 -0600
From: Eduard Hanganu <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Re: grammar term definitions
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Susan,
I have a couple of dictionaries at hand. I can look up words. What I asked
you was for YOUR PERSONAL DEFINITION of science. What is science to you?
Your definition of science seems to exclude grammar. So, again, what is your
definition of science? One sentence or paragraph, please.
No offense intended.
Eduard
----- Original Message -----
From: Susan van Druten <[log in to unmask]>
Date: Monday, November 22, 2010 17:11
Subject: Re: grammar term definitions
To: [log in to unmask]
> Eduard,
>
> Here's an entry from the World English Dictionary:
> 1. a branch of knowledge or study dealing with a body of facts
> or truths systematically arranged and showing the operation of
> general laws: the mathematical sciences.
> 2. systematic knowledge of the physical or material world gained
> through observation and experimentation.
> 3. any of the branches of natural or physical science.
> 4. systematized knowledge in general.
> 5. knowledge, as of facts or principles; knowledge gained by
> systematic study.
> 6. a particular branch of knowledge.
> 7. skill, esp. reflecting a precise application of facts or
> principles; proficiency.
>
> A grammarian could call him- or herself a scientist by
> definition 4, 5, 6, and 7 but then by that definition, I am a
> scientist too.
>
> Do you consider teachers of "economics, history, political
> science, psychology, anthropology, and sociology" to be scientist?
>
> What is your definition of "science"? Gosh, maybe at the
> next cocktail party I can impress everyone by letting them know
> that I am a...scientist!
>
> Susan
>
>
> On Nov 22, 2010, at 6:21 AM, Eduard Hanganu wrote:
>
> > Susan,
> >
> > Would it be possible to provide to this thread a definition of
> "science" the way you see it? Is Linguistics "science" or not?
> >
> > Thanks,
> >
> > Eduard
>
>
> To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web
> interface at:
> http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html
> and select "Join or leave the list"
>
> Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/
>
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=3CDIV=3ESusan=2C=3C/DIV=3E
=3CDIV=3E=26nbsp=3B=3C/DIV=3E
=3CDIV=3EI have a couple of dictionaries at hand=2E I can look up words=2E=
What I asked you was for YOUR PERSONAL DEFINITION of science=2E What is=
science to you=3F Your definition of science seems to exclude grammar=2E=
So=2C again=2C what is your definition of science=3F One sentence or pa=
ragraph=2C please=2E=3C/DIV=3E
=3CDIV=3ENo offense intended=2E=3C/DIV=3E
=3CDIV=3E=26nbsp=3B=3C/DIV=3E
=3CDIV=3EEduard =3CBR=3E=3CBR=3E----- Original Message -----=3CBR=3EFrom=
=3A Susan van Druten =26lt=3Bbosvd=40CPINTERNET=2ECOM=26gt=3B=3CBR=3EDat=
e=3A Monday=2C November 22=2C 2010 17=3A11=3CBR=3ESubject=3A Re=3A gramm=
ar term definitions=3CBR=3ETo=3A ATEG=40LISTSERV=2EMUOHIO=2EEDU=3CBR=3E=3C=
BR=3E=26gt=3B Eduard=2C=3CBR=3E=26gt=3B =3CBR=3E=26gt=3B Here=27s an ent=
ry from the World English Dictionary=3A=3CBR=3E=26gt=3B 1=2E a branch of=
knowledge or study dealing with a body of facts =3CBR=3E=26gt=3B or tru=
ths systematically arranged and showing the operation of =3CBR=3E=26gt=3B=
general laws=3A the mathematical sciences=2E=3CBR=3E=26gt=3B 2=2E syste=
matic knowledge of the physical or material world gained =3CBR=3E=26gt=3B=
through observation and experimentation=2E=3CBR=3E=26gt=3B 3=2E any of =
the branches of natural or physical science=2E=3CBR=3E=26gt=3B 4=2E syst=
ematized knowledge in general=2E=3CBR=3E=26gt=3B 5=2E knowledge=2C as of=
facts or principles=3B knowledge gained by =3CBR=3E=26gt=3B systematic =
study=2E=3CBR=3E=26gt=3B 6=2E a particular branch of knowledge=2E=3CBR=3E=
=26gt=3B 7=2E skill=2C esp=2E reflecting a precise application of facts =
or =3CBR=3E=26gt=3B principles=3B proficiency=2E=3CBR=3E=26gt=3B =3CBR=3E=
=26gt=3B A grammarian could call him- or herself a scientist by =3CBR=3E=
=26gt=3B definition 4=2C 5=2C 6=2C and 7 but then by that definition=2C =
I am a =3CBR=3E=26gt=3B scientist too=2E=3CBR=3E=26gt=3B =3CBR=3E=26gt=3B=
Do you consider teachers of =22economics=2C history=2C political =3CBR=3E=
=26gt=3B science=2C psychology=2C anthropology=2C and sociology=22 to be=
scientist=3F=3CBR=3E=26gt=3B =3CBR=3E=26gt=3B What is your definition o=
f =22science=22=3F=26nbsp=3B Gosh=2C maybe at the =3CBR=3E=26gt=3B next =
cocktail party I can impress everyone by letting them know =3CBR=3E=26gt=
=3B that I am a=2E=2E=2Escientist!=26nbsp=3B =3CBR=3E=26gt=3B =3CBR=3E=26=
gt=3B Susan=3CBR=3E=26gt=3B =3CBR=3E=26gt=3B =3CBR=3E=26gt=3B On Nov 22=2C=
2010=2C at 6=3A21 AM=2C Eduard Hanganu wrote=3A=3CBR=3E=26gt=3B =3CBR=3E=
=26gt=3B =26gt=3B Susan=2C=3CBR=3E=26gt=3B =26gt=3B=26nbsp=3B =3CBR=3E=26=
gt=3B =26gt=3B Would it be possible to provide to this thread a definiti=
on of =3CBR=3E=26gt=3B =22science=22 the way you see it=3F Is Linguistic=
s =22science=22 or not=3F=3CBR=3E=26gt=3B =26gt=3B=26nbsp=3B =3CBR=3E=26=
gt=3B =26gt=3B Thanks=2C=3CBR=3E=26gt=3B =26gt=3B=26nbsp=3B =3CBR=3E=26g=
t=3B =26gt=3B Eduard =3CBR=3E=26gt=3B =3CBR=3E=26gt=3B =3CBR=3E=26gt=3B =
To join or leave this LISTSERV list=2C please visit the list=27s web =3C=
BR=3E=26gt=3B interface at=3A=3CBR=3E=26gt=3B =26nbsp=3B=26nbsp=3B=26nbs=
p=3B=26nbsp=3B http=3A//listserv=2Emuohio=2Eedu/archives/ateg=2Ehtml=3CB=
R=3E=26gt=3B and select =22Join or leave the list=22=3CBR=3E=26gt=3B =3C=
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gt=3B =3C/DIV=3E
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Date: Tue, 23 Nov 2010 06:25:13 -0600
From: Eduard Hanganu <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Re: grammar term definitions
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Craig,
I learned English in a foreign country from dictionaries, textbooks, and
PRESCRIPTIVE GRAMMARS, and I believe that I have a better command of English
than more than 80 per cent of the "native" American users of the English
language. "Native" users of English "acquire" it in a non-prescriptive way.
Is this why they cannot speak, read, and write in English?
Eduard
----- Original Message -----
From: Craig Hancock <[log in to unmask]>
Date: Monday, November 22, 2010 11:34
Subject: Re: grammar term definitions
To: [log in to unmask]
> Susan,
> You mention Pinker in an earlier post.
> This is from The Language
> Instinct, p. 384 in my paperback version.
> "Prescriptive rules are useless
> without the much more fundamental
> rules that create the sentences... When a scientist considers
> all the
> high tech mental machinery needed to arrange words into ordinary
> sentences, prescriptive rules are, at best,
> inconsequential little
> decorations."
> The truth that grammar can reveal would
> be, in Pinker's words, "the
> much more fundamental rules that create the sentences."
>
> Craig
>
> On 11/21/2010 10:00 PM, Susan van Druten wrote:
> > On Nov 21, 2010, at 7:39 PM, Craig Hancock wrote:
> >> Do you believe that dictionaries can't be scientific?
> > Do you believe that discographies can't be scientific?
> >
> >> Prescriptive grammarians often seem to have a messianic
> passion behind
> >> their activities. It hardly seems scientific.
> > Correct. Prescriptive grammarians are
> pseudoscientists. Messianic means you think you know
> what is "truth" and right for all people when you don't because
> other people have a different "truth." Scientists aren't
> messianic, yet they tell Truth.
> >
> > What Truth do grammarians have to tell?
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >>>> If the main points you are trying to make
> are...>>> In this thread I have had only one main point:
> As a field of inquiry,
> >>> grammar is not science.
> >>>
> >>> I know that you understand the stupidity of believing
> prescriptive grammar
> >>> is The Way. But if you believe grammar is ultimately
> scientific, then you
> >>> contradict yourself. Ultimately grammar is
> democratic. But science
> >>> doesn't vote.
> >>>
> >>> That crazy "had" guy on this list demands we all follow a
> scientific,>>> prescriptive rule he learned once. Most of
> us laugh, but those of you who
> >>> believe grammar is science, can't laugh. Crazy
> "had" guy puts you, the
> >>> scientific grammarian, in a bind. Mediator Girl comes
> in and says, "You,
> >>> drop the lab coat. And, you, drop your dogma."
> When you insists your
> >>> unscientific beliefs are real, you create extremists who
> refuse to take
> >>> you metaphorically (because you deny the metaphor).
> Maybe if you come
> >>> clean about the lack of science, crazy "had" guy could move
> on. The 72
> >>> virgins aren't science. There's no reward for beliefs
> that aren't real.
> >>>
> >>>
> >>> On Nov 21, 2010, at 5:10 PM, Craig Hancock wrote:
> >>>
> >>>> Susan,
> >>>> If the main points you are trying to make
> are that grammar should not
> >>>> be entirely prescriptive and that prescriptive grammarians
> should not
> >>>> claim scientific certainty behind their prescriptive rules,
> I am happy
> >>>> to agree. Apparently, we have very different ideas about
> science. To
> >>>> me, a scientist observes the world and tries to make sense
> out of it.
> >>>> He/she may have very human values that drive that--a desire
> to cure
> >>>> cancer, for example--but those are not the science. I think
> there is
> >>>> room for patient observation and disciplined inquiry in the
> study of
> >>>> language. We should understand how it works apart from
> trying to
> >>>> control other people's use of it.
> >>>>
> >>>> Craig
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>> On Nov 21, 2010, at 4:25 PM, Craig Hancock wrote:
> >>>>>> I agree that grammar stops being a science when it
> becomes narrowly
> >>>>>> prescriptive.
> >>>>> You have this completely turned around. Science is
> "prescriptive.">>>>>
> >>>>> Those who try to put prescriptive rules and laws on
> language are acting
> >>>>> as
> >>>>> though grammar is a science when it clearly is not.
> Why do we belittle
> >>>>> them? Because they don't get it; grammar is not
> science. Your
> >>>>> insistence
> >>>>> that grammar is science, means you believe grammar ought
> to be
> >>>>> completely
> >>>>> prescriptive. If a scientific law only most of the
> time follows the
> >>>>> law,
> >>>>> it is pseudoscience. Science demands complete obedience.
> >>>>>
> >>>>> We can rail all we want about how unfair it is that the
> cute fawn with
> >>>>> the
> >>>>> damaged foot will be the wolf's target, but the world
> works without our
> >>>>> emotions. Survival of the fittest doesn't care about
> anything but
> >>>>> their
> >>>>> ability to survive.
> >>>>> To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the
> list's web
> >>>>> interface
> >>>>> at:
> >>>>>
> http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html>>>>> and select
> "Join or leave the list"
> >>>>>
> >>>>> Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/
> >>>>>
> >>>> To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the
> list's web
> >>>> interface at:
> >>>>
> http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html>>>> and select
> "Join or leave the list"
> >>>>
> >>>> Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/
> >>> To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's
> web interface
> >>> at:
> >>>
> http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html>>> and select
> "Join or leave the list"
> >>>
> >>> Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/
> >>>
> >> To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's
> web interface at:
> >>
> http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html>> and select "Join
> or leave the list"
> >>
> >> Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/
> > To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's
> web interface at:
> >
> http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html> and select "Join
> or leave the list"
> >
> > Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/
> >
> >
>
> To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web
> interface at:
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>
> Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/
>
To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web interface
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=3CDIV=3E=26nbsp=3B=3C/DIV=3E
=3CDIV=3ECraig=2C=3C/DIV=3E
=3CDIV=3E=26nbsp=3B=3C/DIV=3E
=3CDIV=3EI learned English in a foreign country from dictionaries=2C tex=
tbooks=2C and PRESCRIPTIVE GRAMMARS=2C and I believe that I have a bette=
r command of English than more than 80 per cent of the =22native=22 Amer=
ican users of=26nbsp=3B the English language=2E =22Native=22 users of En=
glish =22acquire=22 it in a non-prescriptive way=2E Is this why they can=
not speak=2C read=2C and write in English=3F=3C/DIV=3E
=3CDIV=3E=26nbsp=3B=3C/DIV=3E
=3CDIV=3EEduard =3CBR=3E=3CBR=3E----- Original Message -----=3CBR=3EFrom=
=3A Craig Hancock =26lt=3Bhancock=40ALBANY=2EEDU=26gt=3B=3CBR=3EDate=3A =
Monday=2C November 22=2C 2010 11=3A34=3CBR=3ESubject=3A Re=3A grammar te=
rm definitions=3CBR=3ETo=3A ATEG=40LISTSERV=2EMUOHIO=2EEDU=3CBR=3E=3CBR=3E=
=26gt=3B Susan=2C=3CBR=3E=26gt=3B =26nbsp=3B=26nbsp=3B=26nbsp=3B=26nbsp=3B=
You mention Pinker in an earlier post=2E =3CBR=3E=26gt=3B This is from =
The Language =3CBR=3E=26gt=3B Instinct=2C p=2E 384 in my paperback versi=
on=2E=3CBR=3E=26gt=3B =26nbsp=3B=26nbsp=3B=26nbsp=3B=26nbsp=3B=26nbsp=3B=
=22Prescriptive rules are useless =3CBR=3E=26gt=3B without the much mor=
e fundamental =3CBR=3E=26gt=3B rules that create the sentences=2E=2E=2E =
When a scientist considers =3CBR=3E=26gt=3B all the =3CBR=3E=26gt=3B hig=
h tech mental machinery needed to arrange words into ordinary =3CBR=3E=26=
gt=3B sentences=2C prescriptive rules are=2C at best=2C=26nbsp=3B =3CBR=3E=
=26gt=3B inconsequential little =3CBR=3E=26gt=3B decorations=2E=22=3CBR=3E=
=26gt=3B =26nbsp=3B=26nbsp=3B=26nbsp=3B=26nbsp=3B The truth that grammar=
can reveal would =3CBR=3E=26gt=3B be=2C in Pinker=27s words=2C =22the =3C=
BR=3E=26gt=3B much more fundamental rules that create the sentences=2E=22=
=3CBR=3E=26gt=3B =3CBR=3E=26gt=3B Craig=3CBR=3E=26gt=3B =3CBR=3E=26gt=3B=
On 11/21/2010 10=3A00 PM=2C Susan van Druten wrote=3A=3CBR=3E=26gt=3B =26=
gt=3B On Nov 21=2C 2010=2C at 7=3A39 PM=2C Craig Hancock wrote=3A=3CBR=3E=
=26gt=3B =26gt=3B=26gt=3B Do you believe that dictionaries can=27t be sc=
ientific=3F=3CBR=3E=26gt=3B =26gt=3B Do you believe that discographies c=
an=27t be scientific=3F=3CBR=3E=26gt=3B =26gt=3B=3CBR=3E=26gt=3B =26gt=3B=
=26gt=3B Prescriptive grammarians often seem to have a messianic =3CBR=3E=
=26gt=3B passion behind=3CBR=3E=26gt=3B =26gt=3B=26gt=3B their activitie=
s=2E It hardly seems scientific=2E=3CBR=3E=26gt=3B =26gt=3B Correct=2E=26=
nbsp=3B Prescriptive grammarians are =3CBR=3E=26gt=3B pseudoscientists=2E=
=26nbsp=3B=26nbsp=3B Messianic means you think you know =3CBR=3E=26gt=3B=
what is =22truth=22 and right for all people when you don=27t because =3C=
BR=3E=26gt=3B other people have a different =22truth=2E=22=26nbsp=3B Sci=
entists aren=27t =3CBR=3E=26gt=3B messianic=2C yet they tell Truth=2E=3C=
BR=3E=26gt=3B =26gt=3B=3CBR=3E=26gt=3B =26gt=3B What Truth do grammarian=
s have to tell=3F=3CBR=3E=26gt=3B =26gt=3B=3CBR=3E=26gt=3B =26gt=3B=3CBR=
=3E=26gt=3B =26gt=3B=3CBR=3E=26gt=3B =26gt=3B=3CBR=3E=26gt=3B =26gt=3B=3C=
BR=3E=26gt=3B =26gt=3B=3CBR=3E=26gt=3B =26gt=3B=3CBR=3E=26gt=3B =26gt=3B=
=3CBR=3E=26gt=3B =26gt=3B=3CBR=3E=26gt=3B =26gt=3B=3CBR=3E=26gt=3B =26gt=
=3B=3CBR=3E=26gt=3B =26gt=3B=3CBR=3E=26gt=3B =26gt=3B=3CBR=3E=26gt=3B =26=
gt=3B=26gt=3B=26gt=3B=26gt=3B=26nbsp=3B=26nbsp=3B=26nbsp=3B If the main =
points you are trying to make =3CBR=3E=26gt=3B are=2E=2E=2E=26gt=3B=26gt=
=3B=26gt=3B In this thread I have had only one main point=3A=26nbsp=3B =3C=
BR=3E=26gt=3B As a field of inquiry=2C=3CBR=3E=26gt=3B =26gt=3B=26gt=3B=26=
gt=3B grammar is not science=2E=3CBR=3E=26gt=3B =26gt=3B=26gt=3B=26gt=3B=
=3CBR=3E=26gt=3B =26gt=3B=26gt=3B=26gt=3B I know that you understand the=
stupidity of believing =3CBR=3E=26gt=3B prescriptive grammar=3CBR=3E=26=
gt=3B =26gt=3B=26gt=3B=26gt=3B is The Way=2E=26nbsp=3B But if you believ=
e grammar is ultimately =3CBR=3E=26gt=3B scientific=2C then you=3CBR=3E=26=
gt=3B =26gt=3B=26gt=3B=26gt=3B contradict yourself=2E=26nbsp=3B=26nbsp=3B=
Ultimately grammar is =3CBR=3E=26gt=3B democratic=2E=26nbsp=3B But scie=
nce=3CBR=3E=26gt=3B =26gt=3B=26gt=3B=26gt=3B doesn=27t vote=2E=3CBR=3E=26=
gt=3B =26gt=3B=26gt=3B=26gt=3B=3CBR=3E=26gt=3B =26gt=3B=26gt=3B=26gt=3B =
That crazy =22had=22 guy on this list demands we all follow a =3CBR=3E=26=
gt=3B scientific=2C=26gt=3B=26gt=3B=26gt=3B prescriptive rule he learned=
once=2E=26nbsp=3B Most of =3CBR=3E=26gt=3B us laugh=2C but those of you=
who=3CBR=3E=26gt=3B =26gt=3B=26gt=3B=26gt=3B believe grammar is science=
=2C can=27t laugh=2E=26nbsp=3B=26nbsp=3B Crazy =3CBR=3E=26gt=3B =22had=22=
guy puts you=2C the=3CBR=3E=26gt=3B =26gt=3B=26gt=3B=26gt=3B scientific=
grammarian=2C in a bind=2E=26nbsp=3B Mediator Girl comes =3CBR=3E=26gt=3B=
in and says=2C =22You=2C=3CBR=3E=26gt=3B =26gt=3B=26gt=3B=26gt=3B drop =
the lab coat=2E=26nbsp=3B And=2C you=2C drop your dogma=2E=22=26nbsp=3B =
=3CBR=3E=26gt=3B When you insists your=3CBR=3E=26gt=3B =26gt=3B=26gt=3B=26=
gt=3B unscientific beliefs are real=2C you create extremists who =3CBR=3E=
=26gt=3B refuse to take=3CBR=3E=26gt=3B =26gt=3B=26gt=3B=26gt=3B you met=
aphorically (because you deny the metaphor)=2E=26nbsp=3B =3CBR=3E=26gt=3B=
Maybe if you come=3CBR=3E=26gt=3B =26gt=3B=26gt=3B=26gt=3B clean about =
the lack of science=2C crazy =22had=22 guy could move =3CBR=3E=26gt=3B o=
n=2E=26nbsp=3B The 72=3CBR=3E=26gt=3B =26gt=3B=26gt=3B=26gt=3B virgins a=
ren=27t science=2E=26nbsp=3B There=27s no reward for beliefs =3CBR=3E=26=
gt=3B that aren=27t real=2E=3CBR=3E=26gt=3B =26gt=3B=26gt=3B=26gt=3B=3CB=
R=3E=26gt=3B =26gt=3B=26gt=3B=26gt=3B=3CBR=3E=26gt=3B =26gt=3B=26gt=3B=26=
gt=3B On Nov 21=2C 2010=2C at 5=3A10 PM=2C Craig Hancock wrote=3A=3CBR=3E=
=26gt=3B =26gt=3B=26gt=3B=26gt=3B=3CBR=3E=26gt=3B =26gt=3B=26gt=3B=26gt=3B=
=26gt=3B Susan=2C=3CBR=3E=26gt=3B =26gt=3B=26gt=3B=26gt=3B=26gt=3B=26nbs=
p=3B=26nbsp=3B=26nbsp=3B If the main points you are trying to make =3CBR=
=3E=26gt=3B are that grammar should not=3CBR=3E=26gt=3B =26gt=3B=26gt=3B=
=26gt=3B=26gt=3B be entirely prescriptive and that prescriptive grammari=
ans =3CBR=3E=26gt=3B should not=3CBR=3E=26gt=3B =26gt=3B=26gt=3B=26gt=3B=
=26gt=3B claim scientific certainty behind their prescriptive rules=2C =3C=
BR=3E=26gt=3B I am happy=3CBR=3E=26gt=3B =26gt=3B=26gt=3B=26gt=3B=26gt=3B=
to agree=2E Apparently=2C we have very different ideas about =3CBR=3E=26=
gt=3B science=2E To=3CBR=3E=26gt=3B =26gt=3B=26gt=3B=26gt=3B=26gt=3B me=2C=
a scientist observes the world and tries to make sense =3CBR=3E=26gt=3B=
out of it=2E=3CBR=3E=26gt=3B =26gt=3B=26gt=3B=26gt=3B=26gt=3B He/she ma=
y have very human values that drive that--a desire =3CBR=3E=26gt=3B to c=
ure=3CBR=3E=26gt=3B =26gt=3B=26gt=3B=26gt=3B=26gt=3B cancer=2C for examp=
le--but those are not the science=2E I think =3CBR=3E=26gt=3B there is=3C=
BR=3E=26gt=3B =26gt=3B=26gt=3B=26gt=3B=26gt=3B room for patient observat=
ion and disciplined inquiry in the =3CBR=3E=26gt=3B study of=3CBR=3E=26g=
t=3B =26gt=3B=26gt=3B=26gt=3B=26gt=3B language=2E We should understand h=
ow it works apart from =3CBR=3E=26gt=3B trying to=3CBR=3E=26gt=3B =26gt=3B=
=26gt=3B=26gt=3B=26gt=3B control other people=27s use of it=2E=3CBR=3E=26=
gt=3B =26gt=3B=26gt=3B=26gt=3B=26gt=3B=3CBR=3E=26gt=3B =26gt=3B=26gt=3B=26=
gt=3B=26gt=3B Craig=3CBR=3E=26gt=3B =26gt=3B=26gt=3B=26gt=3B=26gt=3B=3CB=
R=3E=26gt=3B =26gt=3B=26gt=3B=26gt=3B=26gt=3B=3CBR=3E=26gt=3B =26gt=3B=26=
gt=3B=26gt=3B=26gt=3B On Nov 21=2C 2010=2C at 4=3A25 PM=2C Craig Hancock=
wrote=3A=3CBR=3E=26gt=3B =26gt=3B=26gt=3B=26gt=3B=26gt=3B=26gt=3B=26gt=3B=
I agree that grammar stops being a science when it =3CBR=3E=26gt=3B bec=
omes narrowly=3CBR=3E=26gt=3B =26gt=3B=26gt=3B=26gt=3B=26gt=3B=26gt=3B=26=
gt=3B prescriptive=2E=3CBR=3E=26gt=3B =26gt=3B=26gt=3B=26gt=3B=26gt=3B=26=
gt=3B You have this completely turned around=2E=26nbsp=3B Science is =3C=
BR=3E=26gt=3B =22prescriptive=2E=22=26gt=3B=26gt=3B=26gt=3B=26gt=3B=26gt=
=3B=3CBR=3E=26gt=3B =26gt=3B=26gt=3B=26gt=3B=26gt=3B=26gt=3B Those who t=
ry to put prescriptive rules and laws on =3CBR=3E=26gt=3B language are a=
cting=3CBR=3E=26gt=3B =26gt=3B=26gt=3B=26gt=3B=26gt=3B=26gt=3B as=3CBR=3E=
=26gt=3B =26gt=3B=26gt=3B=26gt=3B=26gt=3B=26gt=3B though grammar is a sc=
ience when it clearly is not=2E=26nbsp=3B =3CBR=3E=26gt=3B Why do we bel=
ittle=3CBR=3E=26gt=3B =26gt=3B=26gt=3B=26gt=3B=26gt=3B=26gt=3B them=3F=26=
nbsp=3B Because they don=27t get it=3B grammar is not =3CBR=3E=26gt=3B s=
cience=2E=26nbsp=3B Your=3CBR=3E=26gt=3B =26gt=3B=26gt=3B=26gt=3B=26gt=3B=
=26gt=3B insistence=3CBR=3E=26gt=3B =26gt=3B=26gt=3B=26gt=3B=26gt=3B=26g=
t=3B that grammar is science=2C means you believe grammar ought =3CBR=3E=
=26gt=3B to be=3CBR=3E=26gt=3B =26gt=3B=26gt=3B=26gt=3B=26gt=3B=26gt=3B =
completely=3CBR=3E=26gt=3B =26gt=3B=26gt=3B=26gt=3B=26gt=3B=26gt=3B pres=
criptive=2E=26nbsp=3B If a scientific law only most of the =3CBR=3E=26gt=
=3B time follows the=3CBR=3E=26gt=3B =26gt=3B=26gt=3B=26gt=3B=26gt=3B=26=
gt=3B law=2C=3CBR=3E=26gt=3B =26gt=3B=26gt=3B=26gt=3B=26gt=3B=26gt=3B it=
is pseudoscience=2E=26nbsp=3B Science demands complete obedience=2E=3CB=
R=3E=26gt=3B =26gt=3B=26gt=3B=26gt=3B=26gt=3B=26gt=3B=3CBR=3E=26gt=3B =26=
gt=3B=26gt=3B=26gt=3B=26gt=3B=26gt=3B We can rail all we want about how =
unfair it is that the =3CBR=3E=26gt=3B cute fawn with=3CBR=3E=26gt=3B =26=
gt=3B=26gt=3B=26gt=3B=26gt=3B=26gt=3B the=3CBR=3E=26gt=3B =26gt=3B=26gt=3B=
=26gt=3B=26gt=3B=26gt=3B damaged foot will be the wolf=27s target=2C but=
the world =3CBR=3E=26gt=3B works without our=3CBR=3E=26gt=3B =26gt=3B=26=
gt=3B=26gt=3B=26gt=3B=26gt=3B emotions=2E=26nbsp=3B Survival of the fitt=
est doesn=27t care about =3CBR=3E=26gt=3B anything but=3CBR=3E=26gt=3B =26=
gt=3B=26gt=3B=26gt=3B=26gt=3B=26gt=3B their=3CBR=3E=26gt=3B =26gt=3B=26g=
t=3B=26gt=3B=26gt=3B=26gt=3B ability to survive=2E=3CBR=3E=26gt=3B =26gt=
=3B=26gt=3B=26gt=3B=26gt=3B=26gt=3B To join or leave this LISTSERV list=2C=
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=3B=26gt=3B=26gt=3B=26gt=3B at=3A=3CBR=3E=26gt=3B =26gt=3B=26gt=3B=26gt=3B=
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------------------------------
Date: Tue, 23 Nov 2010 06:55:12 -0600
From: Susan van Druten <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Re: grammar term definitions
--Apple-Mail-10-824583809
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I have time for one email response this a.m. =20
The ability to classify is not a prerequisite for something being =
scientific. You can classify music into genres. I would never call =
that taxonomy, but one could by your loose use of it, just as your use =
of "science" is too loose. Also note that you qualified your ability to =
classify words. What about those words that can't be concretely =
classified? Are those words unreal?
How about answering a question for me: what is your personal definition =
of science?
On Nov 23, 2010, at 6:11 AM, Eduard Hanganu wrote:
> Susan,
> =20
> All right, let's take one of your claims. Did you claim that =
"grammatical categories" are "subjective"? What is the basis of your =
statement? Can most of the words in a language be classified based on =
commmon characteristics? This is taxonomy. Is the classification of =
plants in groups scientific? So, what is the difference?
> =20
> Eduard
> =20
>=20
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: Susan van Druten <[log in to unmask]>
> Date: Monday, November 22, 2010 16:49
> Subject: Re: grammar term definitions
> To: [log in to unmask]
>=20
> > Eduard,
> > Isn't saying I have made "unsubstantiated claim" an=20
> > unsubstantiated claim? No offense intended.
> > Susan
> >=20
> > On Nov 22, 2010, at 6:15 AM, Eduard Hanganu wrote:
> >=20
> > > Susan,
> > > =20
> > > You have been making some odd and unsubstantiated claims on=20
> > this thread. Just curious: Are you familiar with any other=20
> > languages than English? And what are your academic credentials?=20
> > No offense intended.
> > > =20
> > > Eduard=20
> > >=20
> > > ----- Original Message -----
> > > From: Susan van Druten <[log in to unmask]>
> > > Date: Sunday, November 21, 2010 21:03
> > > Subject: Re: grammar term definitions
> > > To: [log in to unmask]
> > >=20
> > > > On Nov 21, 2010, at 7:39 PM, Craig Hancock wrote:
> > > > > Do you believe that dictionaries can't be scientific?
> > > >=20
> > > > Do you believe that discographies can't be scientific?
> > > >=20
> > > > > Prescriptive grammarians often seem to have a messianic=20
> > > > passion behind
> > > > > their activities. It hardly seems scientific.
> > > >=20
> > > > Correct. Prescriptive grammarians are=20
> > > > pseudoscientists. Messianic means you think you=20
> > know=20
> > > > what is "truth" and right for all people when you don't=20
> > because=20
> > > > other people have a different "truth." Scientists=20
> > aren't=20
> > > > messianic, yet they tell Truth.=20
> > > >=20
> > > > What Truth do grammarians have to tell?
> > > >=20
> > > >=20
> > > >=20
> > > >=20
> > > >=20
> > > >=20
> > > >=20
> > > >=20
> > > >=20
> > > >=20
> > > >=20
> > > >=20
> > > >=20
> > > > >>> If the main points you are trying to make are...
> > > > >>=20
> > > > >> In this thread I have had only one main point: As a=20
> > > > field of inquiry,
> > > > >> grammar is not science.
> > > > >>=20
> > > > >> I know that you understand the stupidity of believing=20
> > > > prescriptive grammar
> > > > >> is The Way. But if you believe grammar is=20
> > ultimately=20
> > > > scientific, then you
> > > > >> contradict yourself. Ultimately grammar is=20
> > > > democratic. But science
> > > > >> doesn't vote.
> > > > >>=20
> > > > >> That crazy "had" guy on this list demands we all follow a=20
> > > > scientific,>> prescriptive rule he learned once. Most=20
> > of=20
> > > > us laugh, but those of you who
> > > > >> believe grammar is science, can't laugh. =20
> > Crazy=20
> > > > "had" guy puts you, the
> > > > >> scientific grammarian, in a bind. Mediator Girl=20
> > comes=20
> > > > in and says, "You,
> > > > >> drop the lab coat. And, you, drop your=20
> > dogma." =20
> > > > When you insists your
> > > > >> unscientific beliefs are real, you create extremists who=20
> > > > refuse to take
> > > > >> you metaphorically (because you deny the metaphor). =20
> > > > Maybe if you come
> > > > >> clean about the lack of science, crazy "had" guy could=20
> > move=20
> > > > on. The 72
> > > > >> virgins aren't science. There's no reward for=20
> > beliefs=20
> > > > that aren't real.
> > > > >>=20
> > > > >>=20
> > > > >> On Nov 21, 2010, at 5:10 PM, Craig Hancock wrote:
> > > > >>=20
> > > > >>> Susan,
> > > > >>> If the main points you are trying to make=20
> > are=20
> > > > that grammar should not
> > > > >>> be entirely prescriptive and that prescriptive=20
> > grammarians=20
> > > > should not
> > > > >>> claim scientific certainty behind their prescriptive=20
> > rules,=20
> > > > I am happy
> > > > >>> to agree. Apparently, we have very different ideas about=20
> > > > science. To
> > > > >>> me, a scientist observes the world and tries to make=20
> > sense=20
> > > > out of it.
> > > > >>> He/she may have very human values that drive that--a=20
> > desire=20
> > > > to cure
> > > > >>> cancer, for example--but those are not the science. I=20
> > think=20
> > > > there is
> > > > >>> room for patient observation and disciplined inquiry in=20
> > the=20
> > > > study of
> > > > >>> language. We should understand how it works apart from=20
> > > > trying to
> > > > >>> control other people's use of it.
> > > > >>>=20
> > > > >>> Craig
> > > > >>>=20
> > > > >>>=20
> > > > >>> On Nov 21, 2010, at 4:25 PM, Craig Hancock wrote:
> > > > >>>>> I agree that grammar stops being a science when it=20
> > becomes=20
> > > > narrowly>>>>> prescriptive.
> > > > >>>>=20
> > > > >>>> You have this completely turned around. Science=20
> > is=20
> > > > "prescriptive.">>>>=20
> > > > >>>> Those who try to put prescriptive rules and laws on=20
> > > > language are acting
> > > > >>>> as
> > > > >>>> though grammar is a science when it clearly is=20
> > not. =20
> > > > Why do we belittle
> > > > >>>> them? Because they don't get it; grammar is not=20
> > > > science. Your
> > > > >>>> insistence
> > > > >>>> that grammar is science, means you believe grammar=20
> > ought to be
> > > > >>>> completely
> > > > >>>> prescriptive. If a scientific law only most of=20
> > the=20
> > > > time follows the
> > > > >>>> law,
> > > > >>>> it is pseudoscience. Science demands complete=20
> > obedience.> > >>>>=20
> > > > >>>> We can rail all we want about how unfair it is that the=20
> > > > cute fawn with
> > > > >>>> the
> > > > >>>> damaged foot will be the wolf's target, but the world=20
> > works=20
> > > > without our
> > > > >>>> emotions. Survival of the fittest doesn't care=20
> > about=20
> > > > anything but
> > > > >>>> their
> > > > >>>> ability to survive.
> > > > >>>> To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the=20
> > > > list's web
> > > > >>>> interface
> > > > >>>> at:
> > > > >>>> =20
> > http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html> > >>>> and select=20
> > "Join or leave the list"
> > > > >>>>=20
> > > > >>>> Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/
> > > > >>>>=20
> > > > >>>=20
> > > > >>> To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the=20
> > list's web
> > > > >>> interface at:
> > > > >>> =20
> > http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html> > >>> and select=20
> > "Join or leave the list"
> > > > >>>=20
> > > > >>> Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/
> > > > >>=20
> > > > >> To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the=20
> > list's=20
> > > > web interface
> > > > >> at:
> > > > >> =20
> > > > http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html>> and select=20
> > "Join=20
> > > > or leave the list"
> > > > >>=20
> > > > >> Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/
> > > > >>=20
> > > > >=20
> > > > > To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the=20
> > list's=20
> > > > web interface at:
> > > > > =20
> > > > http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html> and select=20
> > "Join=20
> > > > or leave the list"
> > > > >=20
> > > > > Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/
> > > >=20
> > > > To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's=20
> > web=20
> > > > interface at:
> > > > =20
> > http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html> > and select=20
> > "Join or leave the list"
> > > >=20
> > > > Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/
> > > >
> > > To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's=20
> > web interface at: http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html=20
> > and select "Join or leave the list"
> > > Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/
> > >=20
> >=20
> >=20
> > To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web=20
> > interface at:
> > http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html
> > and select "Join or leave the list"
> >=20
> > Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/
> >
> To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web =
interface at: http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html and select =
"Join or leave the list"
> Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/
>=20
To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web interface
at:
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and select "Join or leave the list"
Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/
--Apple-Mail-10-824583809
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<html><head></head><body style=3D"word-wrap: break-word; =
-webkit-nbsp-mode: space; -webkit-line-break: after-white-space; ">I =
have time for one email response this a.m. <div><br></div><div>The =
ability to classify is not a prerequisite for something being =
scientific. You can classify music into genres. I would =
never call that taxonomy, but one could by your loose use of it, just as =
your use of "science" is too loose. Also note that you qualified =
your ability to classify words. What about those words that can't =
be concretely classified? Are those words =
unreal?</div><div><br></div><div>How about answering a question for me: =
what is your personal definition of =
science?<div><br></div><div><br><div><div>On Nov 23, 2010, at 6:11 AM, =
Eduard Hanganu wrote:</div><br =
class=3D"Apple-interchange-newline"><blockquote =
type=3D"cite"><div>Susan,</div>
<div> </div>
<div>All right, let's take one of your claims. Did you claim that =
"grammatical categories" are "subjective"? What is the basis of your =
statement? Can most of the words in a language be classified =
based on commmon characteristics? This is taxonomy. Is the =
classification of plants in groups scientific? So, what is the =
difference?</div>
<div> </div>
<div>Eduard </div>
<div> </div>
<div><br>----- Original Message -----<br>From: Susan van Druten <<a =
href=3D"mailto:[log in to unmask]">[log in to unmask]</a>><br>Date:=
Monday, November 22, 2010 16:49<br>Subject: Re: grammar term =
definitions<br>To: <a =
href=3D"mailto:[log in to unmask]">[log in to unmask]</a><br><=
br>> Eduard,<br>> Isn't saying I have made "unsubstantiated claim" =
an <br>> unsubstantiated claim? No offense intended.<br>> =
Susan<br>> <br>> On Nov 22, 2010, at 6:15 AM, Eduard Hanganu =
wrote:<br>> <br>> > Susan,<br>> > <br>> > You =
have been making some odd and unsubstantiated claims on <br>> this =
thread. Just curious: Are you familiar with any other <br>> languages =
than English? And what are your academic credentials? <br>> No =
offense intended.<br>> > <br>> > Eduard <br>> > =
<br>> > ----- Original Message -----<br>> > From: Susan van =
Druten <<a =
href=3D"mailto:[log in to unmask]">[log in to unmask]</a>><br>> =
> Date: Sunday, November 21, 2010 21:03<br>> > Subject: Re: =
grammar term definitions<br>> > To: <a =
href=3D"mailto:[log in to unmask]">[log in to unmask]</a><br>&=
gt; > <br>> > > On Nov 21, 2010, at 7:39 PM, Craig Hancock =
wrote:<br>> > > > Do you believe that dictionaries can't be =
scientific?<br>> > > <br>> > > Do you believe that =
discographies can't be scientific?<br>> > > <br>> > > =
> Prescriptive grammarians often seem to have a messianic <br>> =
> > passion behind<br>> > > > their activities. It =
hardly seems scientific.<br>> > > <br>> > > =
Correct. Prescriptive grammarians are <br>> > > =
pseudoscientists. Messianic means you think you <br>> =
know <br>> > > what is "truth" and right for all people when =
you don't <br>> because <br>> > > other people have a =
different "truth." Scientists <br>> aren't <br>> > > =
messianic, yet they tell Truth. <br>> > > <br>> > > =
What Truth do grammarians have to tell?<br>> > > <br>> > =
> <br>> > > <br>> > > <br>> > > <br>> =
> > <br>> > > <br>> > > <br>> > > =
<br>> > > <br>> > > <br>> > > <br>> > =
> <br>> > > >>> If the main points you =
are trying to make are...<br>> > > >> <br>> > > =
>> In this thread I have had only one main point: As a =
<br>> > > field of inquiry,<br>> > > >> grammar =
is not science.<br>> > > >> <br>> > > >> I =
know that you understand the stupidity of believing <br>> > > =
prescriptive grammar<br>> > > >> is The Way. But if =
you believe grammar is <br>> ultimately <br>> > > =
scientific, then you<br>> > > >> contradict =
yourself. Ultimately grammar is <br>> > > =
democratic. But science<br>> > > >> doesn't =
vote.<br>> > > >> <br>> > > >> That crazy =
"had" guy on this list demands we all follow a <br>> > > =
scientific,>> prescriptive rule he learned once. Most =
<br>> of <br>> > > us laugh, but those of you who<br>> =
> > >> believe grammar is science, can't laugh. =
<br>> Crazy <br>> > > "had" guy puts you, the<br>> > =
> >> scientific grammarian, in a bind. Mediator Girl =
<br>> comes <br>> > > in and says, "You,<br>> > > =
>> drop the lab coat. And, you, drop your <br>> =
dogma." <br>> > > When you insists your<br>> > > =
>> unscientific beliefs are real, you create extremists who =
<br>> > > refuse to take<br>> > > >> you =
metaphorically (because you deny the metaphor). <br>> > > =
Maybe if you come<br>> > > >> clean about the lack of =
science, crazy "had" guy could <br>> move <br>> > > =
on. The 72<br>> > > >> virgins aren't =
science. There's no reward for <br>> beliefs <br>> > > =
that aren't real.<br>> > > >> <br>> > > >> =
<br>> > > >> On Nov 21, 2010, at 5:10 PM, Craig Hancock =
wrote:<br>> > > >> <br>> > > >>> =
Susan,<br>> > > >>> If the main points you =
are trying to make <br>> are <br>> > > that grammar should =
not<br>> > > >>> be entirely prescriptive and that =
prescriptive <br>> grammarians <br>> > > should not<br>> =
> > >>> claim scientific certainty behind their =
prescriptive <br>> rules, <br>> > > I am happy<br>> > =
> >>> to agree. Apparently, we have very different ideas =
about <br>> > > science. To<br>> > > >>> me, =
a scientist observes the world and tries to make <br>> sense <br>> =
> > out of it.<br>> > > >>> He/she may have very =
human values that drive that--a <br>> desire <br>> > > to =
cure<br>> > > >>> cancer, for example--but those are =
not the science. I <br>> think <br>> > > there is<br>> =
> > >>> room for patient observation and disciplined =
inquiry in <br>> the <br>> > > study of<br>> > > =
>>> language. We should understand how it works apart from =
<br>> > > trying to<br>> > > >>> control =
other people's use of it.<br>> > > >>> <br>> > =
> >>> Craig<br>> > > >>> <br>> > =
> >>> <br>> > > >>> On Nov 21, 2010, at =
4:25 PM, Craig Hancock wrote:<br>> > > >>>>> I =
agree that grammar stops being a science when it <br>> becomes =
<br>> > > narrowly>>>>> prescriptive.<br>> =
> > >>>> <br>> > > >>>> You have =
this completely turned around. Science <br>> is <br>> > =
> "prescriptive.">>>> <br>> > > >>>> =
Those who try to put prescriptive rules and laws on <br>> > > =
language are acting<br>> > > >>>> as<br>> > =
> >>>> though grammar is a science when it clearly is =
<br>> not. <br>> > > Why do we belittle<br>> > =
> >>>> them? Because they don't get it; grammar is =
not <br>> > > science. Your<br>> > > =
>>>> insistence<br>> > > >>>> that =
grammar is science, means you believe grammar <br>> ought to =
be<br>> > > >>>> completely<br>> > > =
>>>> prescriptive. If a scientific law only most of =
<br>> the <br>> > > time follows the<br>> > > =
>>>> law,<br>> > > >>>> it is =
pseudoscience. Science demands complete <br>> obedience.> =
> >>>> <br>> > > >>>> We can rail =
all we want about how unfair it is that the <br>> > > cute fawn =
with<br>> > > >>>> the<br>> > > =
>>>> damaged foot will be the wolf's target, but the world =
<br>> works <br>> > > without our<br>> > > =
>>>> emotions. Survival of the fittest doesn't care =
<br>> about <br>> > > anything but<br>> > > =
>>>> their<br>> > > >>>> ability to =
survive.<br>> > > >>>> To join or leave this =
LISTSERV list, please visit the <br>> > > list's web<br>> =
> > >>>> interface<br>> > > >>>> =
at:<br>> > > >>>> <br>> <a =
href=3D"http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html">http://listserv.muo=
hio.edu/archives/ateg.html</a>> > >>>> and select =
<br>> "Join or leave the list"<br>> > > >>>> =
<br>> > > >>>> Visit ATEG's web site at <a =
href=3D"http://ateg.org/">http://ateg.org/</a><br>> > > =
>>>> <br>> > > >>> <br>> > > =
>>> To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the =
<br>> list's web<br>> > > >>> interface at:<br>> =
> > >>> <br>> <a =
href=3D"http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html">http://listserv.muo=
hio.edu/archives/ateg.html</a>> > >>> and select <br>> =
"Join or leave the list"<br>> > > >>> <br>> > =
> >>> Visit ATEG's web site at <a =
href=3D"http://ateg.org/">http://ateg.org/</a><br>> > > =
>> <br>> > > >> To join or leave this LISTSERV =
list, please visit the <br>> list's <br>> > > web =
interface<br>> > > >> at:<br>> > > =
>> <br>> > > <a =
href=3D"http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html">http://listserv.muo=
hio.edu/archives/ateg.html</a>>> and select <br>> "Join =
<br>> > > or leave the list"<br>> > > >> =
<br>> > > >> Visit ATEG's web site at <a =
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--Apple-Mail-10-824583809--
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 23 Nov 2010 09:32:19 -0500
From: Craig Hancock <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Re: grammar term definitions
This is a multi-part message in MIME format.
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Eduard,
I think there are a number of different paths to literacy and it
might be wrong to assume that one size fits all. Generally speaking, we
have a serious literacy crisis in this country, but the reasons for it
are in dispute.
One of my sons scored 800 on the verbal SAT's and accomplished
that, I think, by being an absolutely voracious reader. The fact that he
has two parents who love (and teach) English was no doubt a part of
that, but mainly because we read to him (and all my children) from birth
and books have always been a huge part of family life. My kids get books
for birthday and Christmas presents, for example. That would back up the
whole language argument pretty well. People acquire language in a
language rich environment.
On the other hand, I teach students every year who are fresh out of
high school who are in no way prepared for the literacy demands of
college. In getting them ready for that, we put them through a program
that focuses much more intensely on language, in part by undoing some of
their misunderstandings. We just received our graduation/retention
statistics from last year, and once again these "at risk" students have
outperformed those who came in through regular admissions. We graduate
close to 70%. So that would seem to be an argument for explicit
attention to language, at least within the context of engaged reading
and writing. And by explicit attention to language, I don't mean error
correction.
I have recently received a pre-publication copy of an article
about a study that seems to show a large improvement in writing quality
for explicit attention to language within the context of writing--very
specifically, in context of genre, involving ordinary English teachers.
So that would seem to show that this is not an either/or choice. If we
had to choose between error focused grammar and meaning focused reading
and writing, I would opt for the latter, but that is a false choice
built out of a shallow (non-scientific) understanding of grammar.
Deep engagement in reading and writing helps. The most productive
thing a writing teacher can do is ask students to write and then take
that writing seriously. But we should also include a deep exploration of
language within English studies. For some strange reason, those
approaches have been made to seem incompatible. We need to move past that.
It is hard to have a discussion about the nature of language study
with people who have never studied language. It would seem to me that
they should ask questions about it rather than give answers to those
questions on their own. At one point in my teaching life, I decided I
needed to know a great deal more about language, and many years later I
am still moving down that path. Because I am fundamentally a writing and
reading teacher, I have been drawn toward some approaches and have tried
to promote those on the list.
Knowledge about language is valuable. Why English teachers would
resist that is beyond me. One form that resistance takes is to degrade
the science behind it. If it's just "subjective," then there's no value
in it.
Craig
On 11/23/2010 7:25 AM, Eduard Hanganu wrote:
>
> Craig,
>
> I learned English in a foreign country from dictionaries, textbooks,
> and PRESCRIPTIVE GRAMMARS, and I believe that I have a better
> command of English than more than 80 per cent of the "native"
> American users of the English language. "Native" users of English
> "acquire" it in a non-prescriptive way. Is this why they cannot
> speak, read, and write in English?
>
> Eduard
>
> ----- Original Message ----- From: Craig Hancock <[log in to unmask]>
> Date: Monday, November 22, 2010 11:34 Subject: Re: grammar term
> definitions To: [log in to unmask]
>
> > Susan, You mention Pinker in an earlier post. This is from The
> > Language Instinct, p. 384 in my paperback version. "Prescriptive
> > rules are useless without the much more fundamental rules that
> > create the sentences... When a scientist considers all the high
> > tech mental machinery needed to arrange words into ordinary
> > sentences, prescriptive rules are, at best, inconsequential little
> > decorations." The truth that grammar can reveal would be, in
> > Pinker's words, "the much more fundamental rules that create the
> > sentences."
> >
> > Craig
> >
> > On 11/21/2010 10:00 PM, Susan van Druten wrote:
> >> On Nov 21, 2010, at 7:39 PM, Craig Hancock wrote:
> >>> Do you believe that dictionaries can't be scientific?
> >> Do you believe that discographies can't be scientific?
> >>
> >>> Prescriptive grammarians often seem to have a messianic
> > passion behind
> >>> their activities. It hardly seems scientific.
> >> Correct. Prescriptive grammarians are
> > pseudoscientists. Messianic means you think you know what is
> > "truth" and right for all people when you don't because other
> > people have a different "truth." Scientists aren't messianic, yet
> > they tell Truth.
> >>
> >> What Truth do grammarians have to tell?
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>>>> If the main points you are trying to make
> > are...>>> In this thread I have had only one main point: As a
> > field of inquiry,
> >>>> grammar is not science.
> >>>>
> >>>> I know that you understand the stupidity of believing
> > prescriptive grammar
> >>>> is The Way. But if you believe grammar is ultimately
> > scientific, then you
> >>>> contradict yourself. Ultimately grammar is
> > democratic. But science
> >>>> doesn't vote.
> >>>>
> >>>> That crazy "had" guy on this list demands we all follow a
> > scientific,>>> prescriptive rule he learned once. Most of us
> > laugh, but those of you who
> >>>> believe grammar is science, can't laugh. Crazy
> > "had" guy puts you, the
> >>>> scientific grammarian, in a bind. Mediator Girl comes
> > in and says, "You,
> >>>> drop the lab coat. And, you, drop your dogma."
> > When you insists your
> >>>> unscientific beliefs are real, you create extremists who
> > refuse to take
> >>>> you metaphorically (because you deny the metaphor).
> > Maybe if you come
> >>>> clean about the lack of science, crazy "had" guy could move
> > on. The 72
> >>>> virgins aren't science. There's no reward for beliefs
> > that aren't real.
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>> On Nov 21, 2010, at 5:10 PM, Craig Hancock wrote:
> >>>>
> >>>>> Susan, If the main points you are trying to make
> > are that grammar should not
> >>>>> be entirely prescriptive and that prescriptive grammarians
> > should not
> >>>>> claim scientific certainty behind their prescriptive
> >>>>> rules,
> > I am happy
> >>>>> to agree. Apparently, we have very different ideas about
> > science. To
> >>>>> me, a scientist observes the world and tries to make sense
> > out of it.
> >>>>> He/she may have very human values that drive that--a
> >>>>> desire
> > to cure
> >>>>> cancer, for example--but those are not the science. I
> >>>>> think
> > there is
> >>>>> room for patient observation and disciplined inquiry in
> >>>>> the
> > study of
> >>>>> language. We should understand how it works apart from
> > trying to
> >>>>> control other people's use of it.
> >>>>>
> >>>>> Craig
> >>>>>
> >>>>>
> >>>>> On Nov 21, 2010, at 4:25 PM, Craig Hancock wrote:
> >>>>>>> I agree that grammar stops being a science when it
> > becomes narrowly
> >>>>>>> prescriptive.
> >>>>>> You have this completely turned around. Science is
> > "prescriptive.">>>>>
> >>>>>> Those who try to put prescriptive rules and laws on
> > language are acting
> >>>>>> as though grammar is a science when it clearly is not.
> > Why do we belittle
> >>>>>> them? Because they don't get it; grammar is not
> > science. Your
> >>>>>> insistence that grammar is science, means you believe
> >>>>>> grammar ought
> > to be
> >>>>>> completely prescriptive. If a scientific law only most
> >>>>>> of the
> > time follows the
> >>>>>> law, it is pseudoscience. Science demands complete
> >>>>>> obedience.
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>> We can rail all we want about how unfair it is that the
> > cute fawn with
> >>>>>> the damaged foot will be the wolf's target, but the
> >>>>>> world
> > works without our
> >>>>>> emotions. Survival of the fittest doesn't care about
> > anything but
> >>>>>> their ability to survive. To join or leave this LISTSERV
> >>>>>> list, please visit the
> > list's web
> >>>>>> interface at:
> >>>>>>
> > http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html>>>>> and select
> > "Join or leave the list"
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>> Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/
> >>>>>>
> >>>>> To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the
> > list's web
> >>>>> interface at:
> >>>>>
> > http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html>>>> and select "Join
> > or leave the list"
> >>>>>
> >>>>> Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/
> >>>> To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's
> > web interface
> >>>> at:
> >>>>
> > http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html>>> and select "Join
> > or leave the list"
> >>>>
> >>>> Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/
> >>>>
> >>> To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's
> > web interface at:
> >>>
> > http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html>> and select "Join
> > or leave the list"
> >>>
> >>> Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/
> >> To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's
> > web interface at:
> >>
> > http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html> and select "Join or
> > leave the list"
> >>
> >> Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/
> >>
> >>
> >
> > To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web
> > interface at: http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html and
> > select "Join or leave the list"
> >
> > Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/
> >
> To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web
> interface at: http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html and
> select "Join or leave the list"
>
> Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/
>
To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web interface
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Eduard,<br>
I think there are a number of different paths to
literacy and it
might be wrong to assume that one size fits all. Generally
speaking, we have a serious literacy crisis in this country, but the
reasons for it are in dispute.<br>
One of my sons scored 800 on the verbal SAT's and
accomplished
that, I think, by being an absolutely voracious reader. The fact
that he has two parents who love (and teach) English was no doubt a
part of that, but mainly because we read to him (and all my
children) from birth and books have always been a huge part of
family life. My kids get books for birthday and Christmas presents,
for example. That would back up the whole language argument pretty
well. People acquire language in a language rich environment.<br>
On the other hand, I teach students every year who
are fresh out
of high school who are in no way prepared for the literacy demands
of college. In getting them ready for that, we put them through a
program that focuses much more intensely on language, in part by
undoing some of their misunderstandings. We just received our
graduation/retention statistics from last year, and once again these
"at risk" students have outperformed those who came in through
regular admissions. We graduate close to 70%. So that would seem to
be an argument for explicit attention to language, at least within
the context of engaged reading and writing. And by explicit
attention to language, I don't mean error correction.<br>
I have recently received a pre-publication copy
of an article
about a study that seems to show a large improvement in writing
quality for explicit attention to language within the context of
writing--very specifically, in context of genre, involving ordinary
English teachers. So that would seem to show that this is not an
either/or choice. If we had to choose between error focused grammar
and meaning focused reading and writing, I would opt for the latter,
but that is a false choice built out of a shallow (non-scientific)
understanding of grammar. <br>
Deep engagement in reading and writing helps.
The most
productive thing a writing teacher can do is ask students to write
and then take that writing seriously. But we should also include a
deep exploration of language within English studies. For some
strange reason, those approaches have been made to seem
incompatible. We need to move past that. <br>
It is hard to have a discussion about the nature of
language
study with people who have never studied language. It would seem to
me that they should ask questions about it rather than give answers
to those questions on their own. At one point in my teaching life, I
decided I needed to know a great deal more about language, and many
years later I am still moving down that path. Because I am
fundamentally a writing and reading teacher, I have been drawn
toward some approaches and have tried to promote those on the list.
<br>
Knowledge about language is valuable. Why English
teachers would
resist that is beyond me. One form that resistance takes is to
degrade the science behind it. If it's just "subjective," then
there's no value in it. <br>
<br>
Craig<br>
On 11/23/2010 7:25 AM, Eduard Hanganu wrote:<br>
<span style="white-space: pre;">> <br>
> Craig,<br>
> <br>
> I learned English in a foreign country from dictionaries,
textbooks, <br>
> and PRESCRIPTIVE GRAMMARS, and I believe that I have a better<br>
> command of English than more than 80 per cent of the "native"<br>
> American users of the English language. "Native" users of
English<br>
> "acquire" it in a non-prescriptive way. Is this why they
cannot<br>
> speak, read, and write in English?<br>
> <br>
> Eduard<br>
> <br>
> ----- Original Message ----- From: Craig Hancock
<a class="moz-txt-link-rfc2396E"
href="mailto:[log in to unmask]"><[log in to unmask]></a><br>
> Date: Monday, November 22, 2010 11:34 Subject: Re: grammar
term<br>
> definitions To: <a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated"
href="mailto:[log in to unmask]">[log in to unmask]</a><br>
> <br>
>> Susan, You mention Pinker in an earlier post. This is
from The <br>
>> Language Instinct, p. 384 in my paperback version.
"Prescriptive <br>
>> rules are useless without the much more fundamental rules
that <br>
>> create the sentences... When a scientist considers all
the high <br>
>> tech mental machinery needed to arrange words into
ordinary <br>
>> sentences, prescriptive rules are, at best,
inconsequential little<br>
>> decorations." The truth that grammar can reveal would be,
in <br>
>> Pinker's words, "the much more fundamental rules that
create the <br>
>> sentences."<br>
>> <br>
>> Craig<br>
>> <br>
>> On 11/21/2010 10:00 PM, Susan van Druten wrote:<br>
>>> On Nov 21, 2010, at 7:39 PM, Craig Hancock wrote:<br>
>>>> Do you believe that dictionaries can't be
scientific?<br>
>>> Do you believe that discographies can't be
scientific?<br>
>>> <br>
>>>> Prescriptive grammarians often seem to have a
messianic<br>
>> passion behind<br>
>>>> their activities. It hardly seems scientific.<br>
>>> Correct. Prescriptive grammarians are<br>
>> pseudoscientists. Messianic means you think you know what
is <br>
>> "truth" and right for all people when you don't because
other <br>
>> people have a different "truth." Scientists aren't
messianic, yet <br>
>> they tell Truth.<br>
>>> <br>
>>> What Truth do grammarians have to tell?<br>
>>> <br>
>>> <br>
>>> <br>
>>> <br>
>>> <br>
>>> <br>
>>> <br>
>>> <br>
>>> <br>
>>> <br>
>>> <br>
>>> <br>
>>> <br>
>>>>>> If the main points you are trying to make<br>
>> are...>>> In this thread I have had only one
main point: As a<br>
>> field of inquiry,<br>
>>>>> grammar is not science.<br>
>>>>> <br>
>>>>> I know that you understand the stupidity of
believing<br>
>> prescriptive grammar<br>
>>>>> is The Way. But if you believe grammar is
ultimately<br>
>> scientific, then you<br>
>>>>> contradict yourself. Ultimately grammar is<br>
>> democratic. But science<br>
>>>>> doesn't vote.<br>
>>>>> <br>
>>>>> That crazy "had" guy on this list demands we
all follow a<br>
>> scientific,>>> prescriptive rule he learned
once. Most of us <br>
>> laugh, but those of you who<br>
>>>>> believe grammar is science, can't laugh.
Crazy<br>
>> "had" guy puts you, the<br>
>>>>> scientific grammarian, in a bind. Mediator
Girl comes<br>
>> in and says, "You,<br>
>>>>> drop the lab coat. And, you, drop your
dogma."<br>
>> When you insists your<br>
>>>>> unscientific beliefs are real, you create
extremists who<br>
>> refuse to take<br>
>>>>> you metaphorically (because you deny the
metaphor).<br>
>> Maybe if you come<br>
>>>>> clean about the lack of science, crazy "had"
guy could move<br>
>> on. The 72<br>
>>>>> virgins aren't science. There's no reward for
beliefs<br>
>> that aren't real.<br>
>>>>> <br>
>>>>> <br>
>>>>> On Nov 21, 2010, at 5:10 PM, Craig Hancock
wrote:<br>
>>>>> <br>
>>>>>> Susan, If the main points you are trying
to make<br>
>> are that grammar should not<br>
>>>>>> be entirely prescriptive and that
prescriptive grammarians<br>
>> should not<br>
>>>>>> claim scientific certainty behind their
prescriptive <br>
>>>>>> rules,<br>
>> I am happy<br>
>>>>>> to agree. Apparently, we have very
different ideas about<br>
>> science. To<br>
>>>>>> me, a scientist observes the world and
tries to make sense<br>
>> out of it.<br>
>>>>>> He/she may have very human values that
drive that--a <br>
>>>>>> desire<br>
>> to cure<br>
>>>>>> cancer, for example--but those are not
the science. I <br>
>>>>>> think<br>
>> there is<br>
>>>>>> room for patient observation and
disciplined inquiry in <br>
>>>>>> the<br>
>> study of<br>
>>>>>> language. We should understand how it
works apart from<br>
>> trying to<br>
>>>>>> control other people's use of it.<br>
>>>>>> <br>
>>>>>> Craig<br>
>>>>>> <br>
>>>>>> <br>
>>>>>> On Nov 21, 2010, at 4:25 PM, Craig
Hancock wrote:<br>
>>>>>>>> I agree that grammar stops being
a science when it<br>
>> becomes narrowly<br>
>>>>>>>> prescriptive.<br>
>>>>>>> You have this completely turned
around. Science is<br>
>> "prescriptive.">>>>><br>
>>>>>>> Those who try to put prescriptive
rules and laws on<br>
>> language are acting<br>
>>>>>>> as though grammar is a science when
it clearly is not.<br>
>> Why do we belittle<br>
>>>>>>> them? Because they don't get it;
grammar is not<br>
>> science. Your<br>
>>>>>>> insistence that grammar is science,
means you believe <br>
>>>>>>> grammar ought<br>
>> to be<br>
>>>>>>> completely prescriptive. If a
scientific law only most <br>
>>>>>>> of the<br>
>> time follows the<br>
>>>>>>> law, it is pseudoscience. Science
demands complete <br>
>>>>>>> obedience.<br>
>>>>>>> <br>
>>>>>>> We can rail all we want about how
unfair it is that the<br>
>> cute fawn with<br>
>>>>>>> the damaged foot will be the wolf's
target, but the <br>
>>>>>>> world<br>
>> works without our<br>
>>>>>>> emotions. Survival of the fittest
doesn't care about<br>
>> anything but<br>
>>>>>>> their ability to survive. To join or
leave this LISTSERV <br>
>>>>>>> list, please visit the<br>
>> list's web<br>
>>>>>>> interface at:<br>
>>>>>>> <br>
>>
<a class="moz-txt-link-freetext"
href="http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html">http://listserv.muohio.
edu/archives/ateg.html</a>>>>>>
and select<br>
>> "Join or leave the list"<br>
>>>>>>> <br>
>>>>>>> Visit ATEG's web site at
<a class="moz-txt-link-freetext"
href="http://ateg.org/">http://ateg.org/</a><br>
>>>>>>> <br>
>>>>>> To join or leave this LISTSERV list,
please visit the<br>
>> list's web<br>
>>>>>> interface at:<br>
>>>>>> <br>
>>
<a class="moz-txt-link-freetext"
href="http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html">http://listserv.muohio.
edu/archives/ateg.html</a>>>>> and
select "Join <br>
>> or leave the list"<br>
>>>>>> <br>
>>>>>> Visit ATEG's web site at <a
class="moz-txt-link-freetext"
href="http://ateg.org/">http://ateg.org/</a><br>
>>>>> To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please
visit the list's<br>
>> web interface<br>
>>>>> at:<br>
>>>>> <br>
>> <a class="moz-txt-link-freetext"
href="http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html">http://listserv.muohio.
edu/archives/ateg.html</a>>>>
and select "Join <br>
>> or leave the list"<br>
>>>>> <br>
>>>>> Visit ATEG's web site at <a
class="moz-txt-link-freetext"
href="http://ateg.org/">http://ateg.org/</a><br>
>>>>> <br>
>>>> To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit
the list's<br>
>> web interface at:<br>
>>>> <br>
>> <a class="moz-txt-link-freetext"
href="http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html">http://listserv.muohio.
edu/archives/ateg.html</a>>> and
select "Join<br>
>> or leave the list"<br>
>>>> <br>
>>>> Visit ATEG's web site at <a
class="moz-txt-link-freetext"
href="http://ateg.org/">http://ateg.org/</a><br>
>>> To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the
list's<br>
>> web interface at:<br>
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edu/archives/ateg.html</a>> and
select "Join or <br>
>> leave the list"<br>
>>> <br>
>>> Visit ATEG's web site at <a class="moz-txt-link-freetext"
href="http://ateg.org/">http://ateg.org/</a><br>
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--------------010207030400000409040601--
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 23 Nov 2010 17:22:40 +0100
From: Marie-Pierre Jouannaud <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Re: Approaching Grammar as Art, Science, or Engineering
Scott,
Certainly, definitions can be useful with middle school children.
We should just not make the mistake of thinking that we are going to=20
find definitions that cover ALL the members of a category and ONLY the=20
members of that category, simply because that's not how grammatical=20
categories work.
You should use definitions that convey the core, prototypical cases;=20
this should be enough for students to grasp the essential idea. Once=20
again, teachers should be aware that there will be peripheral members=20
that will not display all of the characteristics of the category, but=20
there is no need to discuss them until you actually encounter them.
I hadn't read your definitions until now, but they feel like they have=20
been witten by people who have never really TAUGHT grammar. If they are=20
to be used/ learned by students who have never studied grammar before,=20
they seem unduly complicated ("subject, complete: the simple subject and=20
its modifiers"; "verbal, infinitive: a verbal that consists of to=9D plus=
=20
a verb and functions as a noun, adjective, or adverb", and why the need=20
for "predicate nominative" and "predicate adjective" when you can use=20
the function "subject complement"?). Some of them are simple, but hard=20
to apply:
clause, dependent (subordinate) a clause that does not express a complete=
=20
thought and cannot stand alone=20
clause, independent (main) a clause that expresses a complete thought and=
can=20
stand alone=20
Notional definitions might work for parts of speech, but not really for=20
phrases or clauses: how can you tell whether a thought is complete or=20
not? "Cannot stand alone" might work better, although if students=20
punctuate dependent clauses as fragments, it probably means that it=20
feels to them like they can stand alone.
It might make more sense to start with prototypical cases: a subordinate=20
clause is a clause introduced by a subordinator (because, that,...)
I don't think a more exact "linguistic" definition such as this one=20
would be useful in middle school: a subordinate clause is a clause that=20
has a function within another clause.
Your "parts of speech" definitions are not very clear either: some of=20
them refer to meaning (nouns or verbs), others to functions...
I don't want to come across as too negative, but if your students come=20
to you with no background in grammar (as some of the discussions seem to=20
imply), I don't see how you are going to make this work!
Marie
> Dear List,
> There has been much discussion of whether grammar is (or can be) a=20
> science. That is all interesting (to me at least) and often useful.=20
> But as a middle school teacher, I'm primarily interested in=20
> engineering grammar instruction so students use language artfully.=20
> Regarding using definitions in the classroom, I'm interested in=20
> definintions that help students understand important linguistic=20
> phenomena for the purpose of improving student performance in=20
> understanding written language and using these concepts artfully in=20
> their writing. Merely teaching definitions will not not achieve this=20
> end, obviously, but definitions may have a role.
> Science helps us in the design process by informing our understanding=20
> of the phenomena and environments we need to understand, but it cannot=20
> tell us how to design effective systems. The sciences relating to=20
> effective instructional design and engineering in grammar, reading,=20
> and writing include cognitive science, linguistics, and behavioral=20
> psychology (at a minimum). These tell us about the nature of both the=20
> things being learned and the learners. Science informs our engineered=20
> instructional systems, but it cannot tell us what to do, when to do=20
> it, or how to do it.
> We use science to tell us how the world works; we use engineering to=20
> create something new. One of the things we are (I think) mutually=20
> engaged in is designing grammar instruction that achieves worthy ends.=20
> We ought not to lose sight of that end.
> Scott Woods
>
> To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web=20
> interface at: http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html and select=20
> "Join or leave the list"
>
> Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/
>
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------------------------------
Date: Tue, 23 Nov 2010 08:23:50 -0800
From: Brad Johnston <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Susan's crazy 'had' guy
--0-715368532-1290529430=:73169
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Susan wrote: That crazy "had" guy on this list demands we all follow a =0As=
cientific, prescriptive rule he learned once.=0A=A0=0A~~~~~~~=0A=A0=0ASusan=
,=0A=A0=0AAs long as=A0Charles Osgood writes, in the Afterword to the 2000 =
Edition of Strunk =0A& White, "Nor could they have imagined that thirty-eig=
ht years after they met, =0AWhite would take this little gem of a textbook =
that Strunk had written=A0for his =0Astudents, polish it, expand it, and tr=
ansform it into a classic".=0A=A0=0AAs long as=A0Otto Jesperson writes, "Wh=
en they had been=A0little they =0Ahad=A0watched=A0each other's plates with =
hostile eyes".=0A=A0=0AAs long as Steven Pinker writes, "Once they had left=
, many men went to take a =0Alook."=0A=A0=0AAs long as Purdue's Online Writ=
ing Lab website=A0illustrates the past perfect =0Awith, "John had hoped to =
have won the trophy".=0A=A0=0AAs long as Ed Vavra=A0illustrates the past pe=
rfect with,=A0"They had given us visas =0Afor three months".=0A=A0=A0As lon=
g as Rodney Huddleston=A0writes, "When Arthur had been a boy he had used =
=0Ato play football".=0AAs long as The Little Gold Grammar Book=A0illustrat=
es the past perfect with, =0A"Larry had studied Russian before he went to M=
oscow".=0A=A0=0A=A0=0AAs long as the McGraw-Hill Handbook of English Gramma=
r writes that, "The past =0Aperfect deals with an action that began at a mo=
re distant point in the past and =0Aended at a more recent point in the pas=
t".As long as these anomalies, and =0Ahundreds more like them, persist, wha=
t I am still doing, lo these many months =0Alater,=A0is called "perseveranc=
e", not "perseveration", the former being admirable =0Adedication, the latt=
er being a mild form of crazy.=0A=A0=0A=A0=0AI elect to=A0assumeyou were dr=
inking, or had been drinking, when you hurled =0Ayour=A0insult.=0A=A0=0A.th=
atcrazyhadguy.brad.23nov10.=0A=A0=0ASidebar: Pinker also writes in The Lang=
uage Instinct, "The highest percentage of =0Aungrammatical sentences was fo=
und in the proceedings of learned academic =0Aconferences" :)=0A=0A=0A =
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--0-715368532-1290529430=:73169
Content-Type: text/html; charset=iso-8859-1
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
<html><head><style type=3D"text/css"><!-- DIV {margin:0px;} --></style></he=
ad><body><div style=3D"font-family:arial, helvetica, sans-serif;font-size:1=
4pt;color:#000000;"><DIV>=0A<DIV><FONT color=3D#000000 size=3D2>Susan wrote=
: That crazy "had" guy on this list demands we all follow a scientific, pre=
scriptive rule he learned once.</FONT></DIV>=0A<DIV><FONT size=3D2></FONT>&=
nbsp;</DIV>=0A<DIV><FONT size=3D2>~~~~~~~</FONT></DIV>=0A<DIV><FONT color=
=3D#000000 size=3D2></FONT> </DIV>=0A<DIV><FONT color=3D#000000 size=
=3D2>Susan,</FONT></DIV>=0A<DIV><FONT color=3D#000000 size=3D2></FONT> =
;</DIV>=0A<DIV><FONT color=3D#000000 size=3D2>As long as Charles Osgoo=
d writes, in the Afterword to the 2000 Edition of Strunk & White, "Nor =
could they have imagined that thirty-eight years after they met, White woul=
d take this little gem of a textbook that Strunk had written for his s=
tudents, polish it, expand it, and transform it into a classic".</FONT></DI=
V>=0A<DIV><FONT color=3D#000000 size=3D2> </FONT></DIV>=0A<DIV><FONT f=
ace=3D"arial, helvetica, sans-serif"><SPAN class=3Dital-inline><SPAN><FONT =
color=3D#000000><FONT size=3D2><SPAN>As long as Otto Jesperson writes,=
"</SPAN>When they had been little they had watched each oth=
er's plates with hostile eyes".</FONT></FONT></SPAN></SPAN></FONT></DIV>=0A=
<DIV><FONT face=3D"arial, helvetica, sans-serif"><SPAN class=3Dital-inline>=
<SPAN></SPAN></SPAN></FONT><FONT color=3D#000000 size=3D2> </FONT></DI=
V>=0A<DIV><FONT color=3D#000000 size=3D2 face=3D"arial, helvetica, sans-ser=
if"><SPAN class=3Dital-inline><SPAN>As long as Steven Pinker writes, "Once =
they had left, many men went to take a look."</SPAN></SPAN></FONT></DIV>=0A=
<DIV><FONT face=3D"arial, helvetica, sans-serif"><SPAN class=3Dital-inline>=
<SPAN><FONT face=3D"arial, helvetica, sans-serif"><EM></EM></FONT></SPAN></=
SPAN></FONT><FONT color=3D#000000 size=3D2> </FONT></DIV>=0A<DIV><SPAN=
class=3Dital-inline><SPAN><SPAN class=3Dital-inline><SPAN><FONT color=3D#0=
00000 size=3D2>As long as Purdue's Online Writing Lab website illustra=
tes the past perfect with, "John had hoped to have won the trophy".</FONT><=
/SPAN></SPAN></SPAN></SPAN></DIV>=0A<DIV><SPAN class=3Dital-inline><SPAN><S=
PAN class=3Dital-inline><SPAN><FONT size=3D2></FONT></SPAN></SPAN></SPAN></=
SPAN> </DIV>=0A<DIV><SPAN class=3Dital-inline><SPAN><SPAN class=3Dital=
-inline><SPAN>=0A<DIV><SPAN class=3Dital-inline><SPAN><SPAN class=3Dital-in=
line><SPAN><FONT color=3D#000000 size=3D2>As long as Ed Vavra illustra=
tes the past perfect with, "They had given us visas for three months".=
</FONT></SPAN></SPAN></DIV>=0A<DIV>=0A<DIV><SPAN class=3Dital-inline><SPAN>=
</SPAN></SPAN><FONT color=3D#000000 size=3D2> </FONT></SPAN></SPAN></S=
PAN></SPAN><FONT size=3D2> </FONT></DIV></DIV></DIV>=0A<DIV>=0A<DIV><S=
PAN class=3Dital-inline><SPAN><FONT color=3D#000000 size=3D2>As long as The=
Little Gold Grammar Book illustrates the past perfect with, "Larry ha=
d studied Russian before he went to Moscow".</FONT></SPAN></SPAN></DIV>=0A<=
DIV><SPAN class=3Dital-inline><SPAN><FONT color=3D#000000></FONT></SPAN></S=
PAN><FONT size=3D2> </FONT></DIV>=0A<DIV><SPAN class=3Dital-inline><SP=
AN></SPAN></SPAN></SPAN></SPAN><SPAN class=3Dital-inline><SPAN><FONT color=
=3D#000000 size=3D2>As long as Rodney Huddleston writes, "When Arthur =
had been a boy he had used to play football".</FONT></SPAN></SPAN></DIV>=0A=
<DIV><SPAN class=3Dital-inline><SPAN></SPAN></SPAN><FONT color=3D#000000 si=
ze=3D2> </FONT></DIV></DIV>=0A<DIV><SPAN class=3Dital-inline><SPAN><FO=
NT color=3D#000000 size=3D2>As long as the McGraw-Hill Handbook of English =
Grammar writes that, "</FONT></SPAN></SPAN><SPAN class=3Dital-inline><SPAN>=
<FONT color=3D#000000 size=3D2>The past perfect deals with an action that b=
egan at a more distant point in the past and ended at a more recent point i=
n the past".</FONT></DIV>=0A<DIV><FONT color=3D#000000 size=3D2> </FON=
T></DIV>=0A<DIV></SPAN></SPAN><SPAN class=3Dital-inline><SPAN><FONT color=
=3D#000000 size=3D2>As long as these anomalies, and hundreds more like them=
, persist, what I am <U>still</U> doing, lo these many months later, i=
s called "perseverance", not "perseveration", the former being admirable de=
dication, the latter being a mild form of crazy.</FONT></SPAN></SPAN></DIV>=
=0A<DIV><SPAN class=3Dital-inline><SPAN></SPAN></SPAN><FONT color=3D#000000=
size=3D2> </FONT></DIV>=0A<DIV><FONT color=3D#000000><FONT size=3D2><=
SPAN class=3Dital-inline><SPAN>I elect to assume</SPAN></SPAN><SPAN cl=
ass=3Dital-inline><SPAN> you were drinking, or had been drinking, when you =
hurled your insult.</SPAN></SPAN></FONT></FONT></DIV>=0A<DIV><FONT col=
or=3D#000000><FONT size=3D2><SPAN class=3Dital-inline><SPAN></SPAN></SPAN><=
/FONT></FONT> </DIV>=0A<DIV><FONT color=3D#000000><FONT size=3D2><SPAN=
class=3Dital-inline><SPAN>.thatcrazyhadguy.brad.23nov10.</SPAN></SPAN></FO=
NT></FONT></DIV>=0A<DIV><FONT color=3D#000000><FONT size=3D2><SPAN class=3D=
ital-inline><SPAN></SPAN></SPAN></FONT></FONT> </DIV>=0A<DIV><FONT col=
or=3D#000000><FONT size=3D2><SPAN class=3Dital-inline><SPAN>=0A<DIV><FONT f=
ace=3D"arial, helvetica, sans-serif"><SPAN class=3Dital-inline><SPAN><FONT =
color=3D#000000><FONT size=3D2><FONT face=3D"arial, helvetica, sans-serif">=
Sidebar: Pinker also writes in <EM>The Language Instinct, "</EM></FONT><FON=
T face=3D"arial, helvetica, sans-serif">The highest percentage of ungrammat=
ical sentences was found in the proceedings of learned academic conferences=
" </FONT><FONT face=3D"times new roman, new york, times, serif">:)</FONT></=
FONT></FONT></DIV>=0A<DIV><FONT color=3D#000000 size=3D2> </FONT></SPA=
N></SPAN></FONT></DIV></SPAN></SPAN></FONT></FONT></DIV></DIV></div><br>=0A=
=0A=0A=0A=0A=0A=0A=0A </body></html>
To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web interface
at:
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--0-715368532-1290529430=:73169--
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 23 Nov 2010 11:45:40 -0500
From: Susan Jacobs <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Re: Susan's crazy 'had' guy
This is a multi-part message in MIME format.
----------MB_8CD5944FF3CE724_F54_D81C_webmail-stg-m02.sysops.aol.com
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
I did not write anything. Was this to me? I never respond to any of this.
Susan Jacobs
Enid,OK
-----Original Message-----
From: Brad Johnston <[log in to unmask]>
To: ATEG <[log in to unmask]>
Sent: Tue, Nov 23, 2010 10:24 am
Subject: Susan's crazy 'had' guy
Susan wrote: That crazy "had" guy on this list demands we all follow a scie=
ntific, prescriptive rule he learned once.
=20
~~~~~~~
=20
Susan,
=20
As long as Charles Osgood writes, in the Afterword to the 2000 Edition of S=
trunk & White, "Nor could they have imagined that thirty-eight years after =
they met, White would take this little gem of a textbook that Strunk had wr=
itten for his students, polish it, expand it, and transform it into a class=
ic".
=20
As long as Otto Jesperson writes, "When they had been little they had watch=
ed each other's plates with hostile eyes".
=20
As long as Steven Pinker writes, "Once they had left, many men went to take=
a look."
=20
As long as Purdue's Online Writing Lab website illustrates the past perfect=
with, "John had hoped to have won the trophy".
=20
As long as Ed Vavra illustrates the past perfect with, "They had given us v=
isas for three months".
=20
=20
=20
As long as The Little Gold Grammar Book illustrates the past perfect with, =
"Larry had studied Russian before he went to Moscow".
=20
As long as Rodney Huddleston writes, "When Arthur had been a boy he had use=
d to play football".
=20
As long as The Little Gold Grammar Book illustrates the past perfect with, =
"Larry had studied Russian before he went to Moscow".
=20
As long as Rodney Huddleston writes, "When Arthur had been a boy he had use=
d to play football".
=20
As long as the McGraw-Hill Handbook of English Grammar writes that, "The pa=
st perfect deals with an action that began at a more distant point in the p=
ast and ended at a more recent point in the past".
=20
As long as these anomalies, and hundreds more like them, persist, what I am=
still doing, lo these many months later, is called "perseverance", not "pe=
rseveration", the former being admirable dedication, the latter being a mil=
d form of crazy.
=20
As long as these anomalies, and hundreds more like them, persist, what I am=
still doing, lo these many months later, is called "perseverance", not "pe=
rseveration", the former being admirable dedication, the latter being a mil=
d form of crazy.
=20
I elect to assume you were drinking, or had been drinking, when you hurled =
your insult.
=20
.thatcrazyhadguy.brad.23nov10.
=20
Sidebar: Pinker also writes in The Language Instinct, "The highest percenta=
ge of ungrammatical sentences was found in the proceedings of learned acade=
mic conferences" :)
=20
=20
To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web interface =
at: http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html and select "Join or leave=
the list"=20
Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/=20
To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web interface
at:
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Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Content-Type: text/html; charset="us-ascii"
<font color=3D'black' size=3D'2' face=3D'arial'>
<div>I did not write anything. Was this to me? I never respond =
to any of this.</div>
<div> </div>
<div>Susan Jacobs</div>
<div>Enid,OK<br>
<br>
</div>
<div style=3D"CLEAR: both"></div>
<br>
<br>
<div style=3D"FONT-FAMILY: arial,helvetica; COLOR: black; FONT-SIZE: 10pt">=
-----Original Message-----<br>
From: Brad Johnston <[log in to unmask]><br>
To: ATEG <[log in to unmask]><br>
Sent: Tue, Nov 23, 2010 10:24 am<br>
Subject: Susan's crazy 'had' guy<br>
<br>
<div id=3DAOLMsgPart_1_3b8fc250-70fe-4c1b-9aa8-ec826aff7f99>
<STYLE type=3Dtext/css>#AOLMsgPart_1_3b8fc250-70fe-4c1b-9aa8-ec826aff7f99 t=
d{color: black;} #AOLMsgPart_1_3b8fc250-70fe-4c1b-9aa8-ec826aff7f99 DIV {m=
argin:0px;} </STYLE>
<div style=3D"FONT-FAMILY: arial, helvetica, sans-serif; COLOR: #000000; FO=
NT-SIZE: 14pt">
<div>
<div><FONT color=3D#000000 size=3D2>Susan wrote: That crazy "had" guy on th=
is list demands we all follow a scientific, prescriptive rule he learned on=
ce.</FONT></div>
<div><FONT size=3D2></FONT> </div>
<div><FONT size=3D2>~~~~~~~</FONT></div>
<div><FONT color=3D#000000 size=3D2></FONT> </div>
<div><FONT color=3D#000000 size=3D2>Susan,</FONT></div>
<div><FONT color=3D#000000 size=3D2></FONT> </div>
<div><FONT color=3D#000000 size=3D2>As long as Charles Osgood writes, =
in the Afterword to the 2000 Edition of Strunk & White, "Nor could they=
have imagined that thirty-eight years after they met, White would take thi=
s little gem of a textbook that Strunk had written for his students, p=
olish it, expand it, and transform it into a classic".</FONT></div>
<div><FONT color=3D#000000 size=3D2> </FONT></div>
<div><FONT face=3D"arial, helvetica, sans-serif"><SPAN class=3Dital-inline>=
<SPAN><FONT color=3D#000000><FONT size=3D2><SPAN>As long as Otto Jespe=
rson writes, "</SPAN>When they had been little they had watched&n=
bsp;each other's plates with hostile eyes".</FONT></FONT></SPAN></SPAN></FO=
NT></div>
<div><FONT face=3D"arial, helvetica, sans-serif"><SPAN class=3Dital-inline>=
<SPAN></SPAN></SPAN></FONT><FONT color=3D#000000 size=3D2> </FONT></di=
v>
<div><FONT color=3D#000000 size=3D2 face=3D"arial, helvetica, sans-serif"><=
SPAN class=3Dital-inline><SPAN>As long as Steven Pinker writes, "Once they =
had left, many men went to take a look."</SPAN></SPAN></FONT></div>
<div><FONT face=3D"arial, helvetica, sans-serif"><SPAN class=3Dital-inline>=
<SPAN><FONT face=3D"arial, helvetica, sans-serif"><EM></EM></FONT></SPAN></=
SPAN></FONT><FONT color=3D#000000 size=3D2> </FONT></div>
<div><SPAN class=3Dital-inline><SPAN><SPAN class=3Dital-inline><SPAN><FONT =
color=3D#000000 size=3D2>As long as Purdue's Online Writing Lab website&nbs=
p;illustrates the past perfect with, "John had hoped to have won the trophy=
".</FONT></SPAN></SPAN></SPAN></SPAN></div>
<div><SPAN class=3Dital-inline><SPAN><SPAN class=3Dital-inline><SPAN><FONT =
size=3D2></FONT></SPAN></SPAN></SPAN></SPAN> </div>
<div><SPAN class=3Dital-inline><SPAN><SPAN class=3Dital-inline><SPAN>
<div><SPAN class=3Dital-inline><SPAN><SPAN class=3Dital-inline><SPAN><FONT =
color=3D#000000 size=3D2>As long as Ed Vavra illustrates the past perf=
ect with, "They had given us visas for three months".</FONT></SPAN></S=
PAN></div>
<div>
<div><SPAN class=3Dital-inline><SPAN></SPAN></SPAN><FONT color=3D#000000 si=
ze=3D2> </FONT></SPAN></SPAN></SPAN></SPAN><FONT size=3D2> </FONT=
></div>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div><SPAN class=3Dital-inline><SPAN><FONT color=3D#000000 size=3D2>As long=
as The Little Gold Grammar Book illustrates the past perfect with, "L=
arry had studied Russian before he went to Moscow".</FONT></SPAN></SPAN></d=
iv>
<div><SPAN class=3Dital-inline><SPAN><FONT color=3D#000000></FONT></SPAN></=
SPAN><FONT size=3D2> </FONT></div>
<div><SPAN class=3Dital-inline><SPAN></SPAN></SPAN></SPAN></SPAN><SPAN clas=
s=3Dital-inline><SPAN><FONT color=3D#000000 size=3D2>As long as Rodney Hudd=
leston writes, "When Arthur had been a boy he had used to play footbal=
l".</FONT></SPAN></SPAN></div>
<div><SPAN class=3Dital-inline><SPAN></SPAN></SPAN><FONT color=3D#000000 si=
ze=3D2> </FONT></div>
</div>
<div><SPAN class=3Dital-inline><SPAN><FONT color=3D#000000 size=3D2>As long=
as the McGraw-Hill Handbook of English Grammar writes that, "</FONT></SPAN=
></SPAN><SPAN class=3Dital-inline><SPAN><FONT color=3D#000000 size=3D2>The =
past perfect deals with an action that began at a more distant point in the=
past and ended at a more recent point in the past".</FONT></div>
<div><FONT color=3D#000000 size=3D2> </FONT></div>
<div></SPAN></SPAN><SPAN class=3Dital-inline><SPAN><FONT color=3D#000000 si=
ze=3D2>As long as these anomalies, and hundreds more like them, persist, wh=
at I am <U>still</U> doing, lo these many months later, is called "per=
severance", not "perseveration", the former being admirable dedication, the=
latter being a mild form of crazy.</FONT></SPAN></SPAN></div>
<div><SPAN class=3Dital-inline><SPAN></SPAN></SPAN><FONT color=3D#000000 si=
ze=3D2> </FONT></div>
<div><FONT color=3D#000000><FONT size=3D2><SPAN class=3Dital-inline><SPAN>I=
elect to assume</SPAN></SPAN><SPAN class=3Dital-inline><SPAN> you wer=
e drinking, or had been drinking, when you hurled your insult.</SPAN><=
/SPAN></FONT></FONT></div>
<div><FONT color=3D#000000><FONT size=3D2><SPAN class=3Dital-inline><SPAN><=
/SPAN></SPAN></FONT></FONT> </div>
<div><FONT color=3D#000000><FONT size=3D2><SPAN class=3Dital-inline><SPAN>.=
thatcrazyhadguy.brad.23nov10.</SPAN></SPAN></FONT></FONT></div>
<div><FONT color=3D#000000><FONT size=3D2><SPAN class=3Dital-inline><SPAN><=
/SPAN></SPAN></FONT></FONT> </div>
<div><FONT color=3D#000000><FONT size=3D2><SPAN class=3Dital-inline><SPAN>
<div><FONT face=3D"arial, helvetica, sans-serif"><SPAN class=3Dital-inline>=
<SPAN><FONT color=3D#000000><FONT size=3D2><FONT face=3D"arial, helvetica, =
sans-serif">Sidebar: Pinker also writes in <EM>The Language Instinct, "</EM=
></FONT><FONT face=3D"arial, helvetica, sans-serif">The highest percentage =
of ungrammatical sentences was found in the proceedings of learned academic=
conferences" </FONT><FONT face=3D"times new roman, new york, times, serif"=
>:)</FONT></FONT></FONT></div>
<div><FONT color=3D#000000 size=3D2> </FONT></SPAN></SPAN></FONT></div=
>
</SPAN></SPAN></FONT></FONT></div>
</div>
</div>
<br>
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----------MB_8CD5944FF3CE724_F54_D81C_webmail-stg-m02.sysops.aol.com--
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 23 Nov 2010 12:01:29 -0600
From: Geoffrey Layton <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Re: Susan's crazy 'had' guy = Tom Joad
--_98ee30ba-0ceb-4c40-8aa2-93cebdc330f6_
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Little known fact: John Steinbeck left out part of Tom Joad's speech ("Wher=
ever there's a fight=2C so hungry people can eat=2C I'll be there. Wherever=
there's a cop beatin' up a guy=2C I'll be there. I'll be in the way guys y=
ell when they're mad. I'll be in the way kids laugh when they're hungry and=
they know supper's ready=2C and when the people are eatin' the stuff they =
raise and livin' in the houses they build - I'll be there=2C too.") It turn=
s out that Joad also said=2C "And=2C whenever somebody misuses had' I'll be=
there!" Go Brad!
=20
Geoff Layton
=20
As long as Otto Jesperson writes=2C "When they had been little they had wat=
ched each other's plates with hostile eyes".
=20
As long as Steven Pinker writes=2C "Once they had left=2C many men went to =
take a look."
=20
As long as Purdue's Online Writing Lab website illustrates the past perfect=
with=2C "John had hoped to have won the trophy".
=20
As long as Ed Vavra illustrates the past perfect with=2C "They had given us=
visas for three months".
=20
As long as The Little Gold Grammar Book illustrates the past perfect with=
=2C "Larry had studied Russian before he went to Moscow".
=20
As long as Rodney Huddleston writes=2C "When Arthur had been a boy he had u=
sed to play football".
=20
As long as the McGraw-Hill Handbook of English Grammar writes that=2C "The =
past perfect deals with an action that began at a more distant point in the=
past and ended at a more recent point in the past".
=20
As long as these anomalies=2C and hundreds more like them=2C persist=2C wha=
t I am still doing=2C lo these many months later=2C is called "perseverance=
"=2C not "perseveration"=2C the former being admirable dedication=2C the la=
tter being a mild form of crazy. =
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--_98ee30ba-0ceb-4c40-8aa2-93cebdc330f6_
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Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
<html>
<head>
<style><!--
.hmmessage P
{
margin:0px=3B
padding:0px
}
body.hmmessage
{
font-size: 10pt=3B
font-family:Tahoma
}
--></style>
</head>
<body class=3D'hmmessage'>
Little known fact: John Steinbeck left out part of Tom Joad's speech ("Wher=
ever there's a fight=2C so hungry people can eat=2C I'll be there. Wherever=
there's a cop beatin' up a guy=2C I'll be there. I'll be in the way guys y=
ell when they're mad. I'll be in the way kids laugh when they're hungry and=
they know supper's ready=2C and when the people are eatin' the stuff they =
raise and livin' in the houses they build - I'll be there=2C too.") It turn=
s out that Joad also said=2C =3B"And=2C whenever somebody misuses had' =
I'll be there!" Go Brad!<BR>
 =3B<BR>
Geoff Layton<BR><BR><BR><FONT color=3D#000000 size=3D2> =3B</FONT><BR>
<DIV style=3D"FONT-FAMILY: arial=2C helvetica=2C sans-serif=3B COLOR: #0000=
00=3B FONT-SIZE: 14pt">
<DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3D"arial=2C helvetica=2C sans-serif"><SPAN class=3Decxital-=
inline><SPAN><FONT color=3D#000000><FONT size=3D2><SPAN>As long as =3BO=
tto Jesperson writes=2C "</SPAN>When they had been =3Blittle they had&n=
bsp=3Bwatched =3Beach other's plates with hostile eyes".</FONT></FONT><=
/SPAN></SPAN></FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3D"arial=2C helvetica=2C sans-serif"><SPAN class=3Decxital-=
inline><SPAN></SPAN></SPAN></FONT><FONT color=3D#000000 size=3D2> =3B</=
FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT color=3D#000000 size=3D2 face=3D"arial=2C helvetica=2C sans-seri=
f"><SPAN class=3Decxital-inline><SPAN>As long as Steven Pinker writes=2C "O=
nce they had left=2C many men went to take a look."</SPAN></SPAN></FONT></D=
IV>
<DIV><FONT face=3D"arial=2C helvetica=2C sans-serif"><SPAN class=3Decxital-=
inline><SPAN><FONT face=3D"arial=2C helvetica=2C sans-serif"><EM></EM></FON=
T></SPAN></SPAN></FONT><FONT color=3D#000000 size=3D2> =3B</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><SPAN class=3Decxital-inline><SPAN><SPAN class=3Decxital-inline><SPAN>=
<FONT color=3D#000000 size=3D2>As long as Purdue's Online Writing Lab websi=
te =3Billustrates the past perfect with=2C "John had hoped to have won =
the trophy".</FONT></SPAN></SPAN></SPAN></SPAN></DIV>
<DIV><SPAN class=3Decxital-inline><SPAN><SPAN class=3Decxital-inline><SPAN>=
<FONT size=3D2></FONT></SPAN></SPAN></SPAN></SPAN> =3B</DIV>
<DIV><SPAN class=3Decxital-inline><SPAN><SPAN class=3Decxital-inline><SPAN>
<DIV><SPAN class=3Decxital-inline><SPAN><SPAN class=3Decxital-inline><SPAN>=
<FONT color=3D#000000 size=3D2>As long as Ed Vavra =3Billustrates the p=
ast perfect with=2C =3B"They had given us visas for three months".</FON=
T></SPAN></SPAN></DIV>
<DIV>
<DIV><SPAN class=3Decxital-inline><SPAN></SPAN></SPAN><FONT color=3D#000000=
size=3D2> =3B</FONT></SPAN></SPAN></SPAN></SPAN><FONT size=3D2> =
=3B</FONT></DIV></DIV></DIV>
<DIV>
<DIV><SPAN class=3Decxital-inline><SPAN><FONT color=3D#000000 size=3D2>As l=
ong as The Little Gold Grammar Book =3Billustrates the past perfect wit=
h=2C "Larry had studied Russian before he went to Moscow".</FONT></SPAN></S=
PAN></DIV>
<DIV><SPAN class=3Decxital-inline><SPAN><FONT color=3D#000000></FONT></SPAN=
></SPAN><FONT size=3D2> =3B</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><SPAN class=3Decxital-inline><SPAN></SPAN></SPAN></SPAN></SPAN><SPAN c=
lass=3Decxital-inline><SPAN><FONT color=3D#000000 size=3D2>As long as Rodne=
y Huddleston =3Bwrites=2C "When Arthur had been a boy he had used to pl=
ay football".</FONT></SPAN></SPAN></DIV>
<DIV><SPAN class=3Decxital-inline><SPAN></SPAN></SPAN><FONT color=3D#000000=
size=3D2> =3B</FONT></DIV></DIV>
<DIV><SPAN class=3Decxital-inline><SPAN><FONT color=3D#000000 size=3D2>As l=
ong as the McGraw-Hill Handbook of English Grammar writes that=2C "</FONT><=
/SPAN></SPAN><SPAN class=3Decxital-inline><SPAN><FONT color=3D#000000 size=
=3D2>The past perfect deals with an action that began at a more distant poi=
nt in the past and ended at a more recent point in the past".</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT color=3D#000000 size=3D2> =3B</FONT></DIV>
<DIV></SPAN></SPAN><SPAN class=3Decxital-inline><SPAN><FONT color=3D#000000=
size=3D2>As long as these anomalies=2C and hundreds more like them=2C pers=
ist=2C what I am <U>still</U> doing=2C lo these many months later=2C =
=3Bis called "perseverance"=2C not "perseveration"=2C the former being admi=
rable dedication=2C the latter being a mild form of crazy.</FONT></SPAN></S=
PAN></DIV></DIV></DIV> </body>
</html>=
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--_98ee30ba-0ceb-4c40-8aa2-93cebdc330f6_--
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 23 Nov 2010 12:42:49 -0600
From: Eduard Hanganu <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Re: grammar term definitions
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Craig,
You are right. Reaching high levels of language use is not something that
could be left to chance. Learning a language well requires a lot of reading
and writing. There is no way around it. And all appropriate means and
approaches need to be used in order to reach the proficiency goal. I was a
voracious reader in my native language, and I continued to read as intensely
in English as soon as I was able to do it. This developed my vocabulary, and
helped me become familiar with the natural morpho-syntactic structure of the
English language and with its highly idiomatic nature. I learned from the
best English language sources, and I immitated. This is what we should do
with the students we teach.
Eduard
----- Original Message -----
From: Craig Hancock <[log in to unmask]>
Date: Tuesday, November 23, 2010 8:35
Subject: Re: grammar term definitions
To: [log in to unmask]
> Eduard,
> I think there are a number of different
> paths to literacy and it
> might be wrong to assume that one size fits all. Generally
> speaking, we
> have a serious literacy crisis in this country, but the reasons
> for it
> are in dispute.
> One of my sons scored 800 on the verbal
> SAT's and accomplished
> that, I think, by being an absolutely voracious reader. The fact
> that he
> has two parents who love (and teach) English was no doubt a part
> of
> that, but mainly because we read to him (and all my children)
> from birth
> and books have always been a huge part of family life. My kids
> get books
> for birthday and Christmas presents, for example. That would
> back up the
> whole language argument pretty well. People acquire language in
> a
> language rich environment.
> On the other hand, I teach students
> every year who are fresh out of
> high school who are in no way prepared for the literacy demands
> of
> college. In getting them ready for that, we put them through a
> program
> that focuses much more intensely on language, in part by undoing
> some of
> their misunderstandings. We just received our
> graduation/retention
> statistics from last year, and once again these "at risk"
> students have
> outperformed those who came in through regular admissions. We
> graduate
> close to 70%. So that would seem to be an argument for explicit
> attention to language, at least within the context of engaged
> reading
> and writing. And by explicit attention to language, I don't mean
> error
> correction.
> I have recently received a pre-
> publication copy of an article
> about a study that seems to show a large improvement in writing
> quality
> for explicit attention to language within the context of writing-
> -very
> specifically, in context of genre, involving ordinary English
> teachers.
> So that would seem to show that this is not an either/or choice.
> If we
> had to choose between error focused grammar and meaning focused
> reading
> and writing, I would opt for the latter, but that is a false
> choice
> built out of a shallow (non-scientific) understanding of grammar.
> Deep engagement in reading and
> writing helps. The most productive
> thing a writing teacher can do is ask students to write and then
> take
> that writing seriously. But we should also include a deep
> exploration of
> language within English studies. For some strange reason, those
> approaches have been made to seem incompatible. We need to move
> past that.
> It is hard to have a discussion about
> the nature of language study
> with people who have never studied language. It would seem to me
> that
> they should ask questions about it rather than give answers to
> those
> questions on their own. At one point in my teaching life, I
> decided I
> needed to know a great deal more about language, and many years
> later I
> am still moving down that path. Because I am fundamentally a
> writing and
> reading teacher, I have been drawn toward some approaches and
> have tried
> to promote those on the list.
> Knowledge about language is valuable.
> Why English teachers would
> resist that is beyond me. One form that resistance takes is to
> degrade
> the science behind it. If it's just "subjective," then there's
> no value
> in it.
>
> Craig
> On 11/23/2010 7:25 AM, Eduard Hanganu wrote:
> >
> > Craig,
> >
> > I learned English in a foreign country from
> dictionaries, textbooks,
> > and PRESCRIPTIVE GRAMMARS, and I believe that I have a better
> > command of English than more than 80 per cent of the "native"
> > American users of the English language. "Native" users
> of English
> > "acquire" it in a non-prescriptive way. Is this why they
> cannot> speak, read, and write in English?
> >
> > Eduard
> >
> > ----- Original Message ----- From: Craig Hancock
> <[log in to unmask]>> Date: Monday, November 22, 2010
> 11:34 Subject: Re: grammar term
> > definitions To: [log in to unmask]
> >
> > > Susan, You mention Pinker in an earlier post. This is from The
> > > Language Instinct, p. 384 in my paperback version. "Prescriptive
> > > rules are useless without the much more fundamental rules that
> > > create the sentences... When a scientist considers all the high
> > > tech mental machinery needed to arrange words into ordinary
> > > sentences, prescriptive rules are, at best, inconsequential little
> > > decorations." The truth that grammar can reveal would be, in
> > > Pinker's words, "the much more fundamental rules that create the
> > > sentences."
> > >
> > > Craig
> > >
> > > On 11/21/2010 10:00 PM, Susan van Druten wrote:
> > >> On Nov 21, 2010, at 7:39 PM, Craig Hancock wrote:
> > >>> Do you believe that dictionaries can't be scientific?
> > >> Do you believe that discographies can't be scientific?
> > >>
> > >>> Prescriptive grammarians often seem to have a messianic
> > > passion behind
> > >>> their activities. It hardly seems scientific.
> > >> Correct. Prescriptive grammarians are
> > > pseudoscientists. Messianic means you think you know what is
> > > "truth" and right for all people when you don't because other
> > > people have a different "truth." Scientists aren't
> messianic, yet
> > > they tell Truth.
> > >>
> > >> What Truth do grammarians have to tell?
> > >>
> > >>
> > >>
> > >>
> > >>
> > >>
> > >>
> > >>
> > >>
> > >>
> > >>
> > >>
> > >>
> > >>>>> If the main points you are trying to make
> > > are...>>> In this thread I have had only one main point: As a
> > > field of inquiry,
> > >>>> grammar is not science.
> > >>>>
> > >>>> I know that you understand the stupidity of believing
> > > prescriptive grammar
> > >>>> is The Way. But if you believe grammar is ultimately
> > > scientific, then you
> > >>>> contradict yourself. Ultimately grammar is
> > > democratic. But science
> > >>>> doesn't vote.
> > >>>>
> > >>>> That crazy "had" guy on this list demands we all follow a
> > > scientific,>>> prescriptive rule he learned once. Most of us
> > > laugh, but those of you who
> > >>>> believe grammar is science, can't laugh. Crazy
> > > "had" guy puts you, the
> > >>>> scientific grammarian, in a bind. Mediator Girl comes
> > > in and says, "You,
> > >>>> drop the lab coat. And, you, drop your dogma."
> > > When you insists your
> > >>>> unscientific beliefs are real, you create extremists who
> > > refuse to take
> > >>>> you metaphorically (because you deny the metaphor).
> > > Maybe if you come
> > >>>> clean about the lack of science, crazy "had" guy could move
> > > on. The 72
> > >>>> virgins aren't science. There's no reward for beliefs
> > > that aren't real.
> > >>>>
> > >>>>
> > >>>> On Nov 21, 2010, at 5:10 PM, Craig Hancock wrote:
> > >>>>
> > >>>>> Susan, If the main points you are trying to make
> > > are that grammar should not
> > >>>>> be entirely prescriptive and that prescriptive grammarians
> > > should not
> > >>>>> claim scientific certainty behind their prescriptive
> > >>>>> rules,
> > > I am happy
> > >>>>> to agree. Apparently, we have very different ideas about
> > > science. To
> > >>>>> me, a scientist observes the world and tries to make sense
> > > out of it.
> > >>>>> He/she may have very human values that drive that--a
> > >>>>> desire
> > > to cure
> > >>>>> cancer, for example--but those are not the science. I
> > >>>>> think
> > > there is
> > >>>>> room for patient observation and disciplined inquiry in
> > >>>>> the
> > > study of
> > >>>>> language. We should understand how it works apart from
> > > trying to
> > >>>>> control other people's use of it.
> > >>>>>
> > >>>>> Craig
> > >>>>>
> > >>>>>
> > >>>>> On Nov 21, 2010, at 4:25 PM, Craig Hancock wrote:
> > >>>>>>> I agree that grammar stops being a science when it
> > > becomes narrowly
> > >>>>>>> prescriptive.
> > >>>>>> You have this completely turned around. Science is
> > > "prescriptive.">>>>>
> > >>>>>> Those who try to put prescriptive rules and laws on
> > > language are acting
> > >>>>>> as though grammar is a science when it clearly is not.
> > > Why do we belittle
> > >>>>>> them? Because they don't get it; grammar is not
> > > science. Your
> > >>>>>> insistence that grammar is science, means you believe
> > >>>>>> grammar ought
> > > to be
> > >>>>>> completely prescriptive. If a scientific law only most
> > >>>>>> of the
> > > time follows the
> > >>>>>> law, it is pseudoscience. Science demands complete
> > >>>>>> obedience.
> > >>>>>>
> > >>>>>> We can rail all we want about how unfair it is that the
> > > cute fawn with
> > >>>>>> the damaged foot will be the wolf's target, but the
> > >>>>>> world
> > > works without our
> > >>>>>> emotions. Survival of the fittest doesn't care about
> > > anything but
> > >>>>>> their ability to survive. To join or leave this LISTSERV
> > >>>>>> list, please visit the
> > > list's web
> > >>>>>> interface at:
> > >>>>>>
> > > http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html>>>>> and select
> > > "Join or leave the list"
> > >>>>>>
> > >>>>>> Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/
> > >>>>>>
> > >>>>> To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the
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> > >>>>> interface at:
> > >>>>>
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> > >>>>>
> > >>>>> Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/
> > >>>> To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's
> > > web interface
> > >>>> at:
> > >>>>
> > > http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html>>> and select "Join
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> > >>>>
> > >>>> Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/
> > >>>>
> > >>> To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's
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> > >>>
> > > http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html>> and select "Join
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> > >>>
> > >>> Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/
> > >> To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's
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> > >>
> > >
> > > To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web
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> > >
> > To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the
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> >
>
>
>
>
> To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web
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=3CDIV=3ECraig=2C=3C/DIV=3E
=3CDIV=3E=26nbsp=3B=3C/DIV=3E
=3CDIV=3EYou are right=2E Reaching high levels of language use is not so=
mething that could be left to chance=2E Learning a language well =26nbsp=
=3Brequires a lot of reading and writing=2E There is no way around it=2E=
And all appropriate means and approaches need to be used in order to re=
ach the proficiency goal=2E I was a voracious reader in my native langua=
ge=2C and I continued to read as intensely in English as soon as I was a=
ble to do it=2E This developed my vocabulary=2C and helped me become fam=
iliar with the natural morpho-syntactic structure of the English languag=
e and=26nbsp=3Bwith its highly=26nbsp=3Bidiomatic nature=2E I learned fr=
om the best English language sources=2C and I immitated=2E This is what =
we should do with the students we teach=2E=3C/DIV=3E
=3CDIV=3E=26nbsp=3B=3C/DIV=3E
=3CDIV=3EEduard =3C/DIV=3E
=3CDIV=3E=26nbsp=3B=3C/DIV=3E
=3CDIV=3E----- Original Message -----=3CBR=3EFrom=3A Craig Hancock =26lt=
=3Bhancock=40ALBANY=2EEDU=26gt=3B=3CBR=3EDate=3A Tuesday=2C November 23=2C=
2010 8=3A35=3CBR=3ESubject=3A Re=3A grammar term definitions=3CBR=3ETo=3A=
ATEG=40LISTSERV=2EMUOHIO=2EEDU=3CBR=3E=3CBR=3E=26gt=3B Eduard=2C=3CBR=3E=
=26gt=3B =26nbsp=3B=26nbsp=3B=26nbsp=3B=26nbsp=3B I think there are a nu=
mber of different =3CBR=3E=26gt=3B paths to literacy and it =3CBR=3E=26g=
t=3B might be wrong to assume that one size fits all=2E=26nbsp=3B Genera=
lly =3CBR=3E=26gt=3B speaking=2C we =3CBR=3E=26gt=3B have a serious lite=
racy crisis in this country=2C but the reasons =3CBR=3E=26gt=3B for it =3C=
BR=3E=26gt=3B are in dispute=2E=3CBR=3E=26gt=3B =26nbsp=3B=26nbsp=3B=26n=
bsp=3B=26nbsp=3B One of my sons scored 800 on the verbal =3CBR=3E=26gt=3B=
SAT=27s and accomplished =3CBR=3E=26gt=3B that=2C I think=2C by being a=
n absolutely voracious reader=2E The fact =3CBR=3E=26gt=3B that he =3CBR=
=3E=26gt=3B has two parents who love (and teach) English was no doubt a =
part =3CBR=3E=26gt=3B of =3CBR=3E=26gt=3B that=2C but mainly because we =
read to him (and all my children) =3CBR=3E=26gt=3B from birth =3CBR=3E=26=
gt=3B and books have always been a huge part of family life=2E My kids =3C=
BR=3E=26gt=3B get books =3CBR=3E=26gt=3B for birthday and Christmas pres=
ents=2C for example=2E That would =3CBR=3E=26gt=3B back up the =3CBR=3E=26=
gt=3B whole language argument pretty well=2E People acquire language in =
=3CBR=3E=26gt=3B a =3CBR=3E=26gt=3B language rich environment=2E=3CBR=3E=
=26gt=3B =26nbsp=3B=26nbsp=3B=26nbsp=3B=26nbsp=3B On the other hand=2C I=
teach students =3CBR=3E=26gt=3B every year who are fresh out of =3CBR=3E=
=26gt=3B high school who are in no way prepared for the literacy demands=
=3CBR=3E=26gt=3B of =3CBR=3E=26gt=3B college=2E In getting them ready f=
or that=2C we put them through a =3CBR=3E=26gt=3B program =3CBR=3E=26gt=3B=
that focuses much more intensely on language=2C in part by undoing =3CB=
R=3E=26gt=3B some of =3CBR=3E=26gt=3B their misunderstandings=2E We just=
received our =3CBR=3E=26gt=3B graduation/retention =3CBR=3E=26gt=3B sta=
tistics from last year=2C and once again these =22at risk=22 =3CBR=3E=26=
gt=3B students have =3CBR=3E=26gt=3B outperformed those who came in thro=
ugh regular admissions=2E We =3CBR=3E=26gt=3B graduate =3CBR=3E=26gt=3B =
close to 70=25=2E So that would seem to be an argument for explicit =3CB=
R=3E=26gt=3B attention to language=2C at least within the context of eng=
aged =3CBR=3E=26gt=3B reading =3CBR=3E=26gt=3B and writing=2E And by exp=
licit attention to language=2C I don=27t mean =3CBR=3E=26gt=3B error =3C=
BR=3E=26gt=3B correction=2E=3CBR=3E=26gt=3B =26nbsp=3B=26nbsp=3B=26nbsp=3B=
=26nbsp=3B=26nbsp=3B I have recently received a pre-=3CBR=3E=26gt=3B pub=
lication copy of an article =3CBR=3E=26gt=3B about a study that seems to=
show a large improvement in writing =3CBR=3E=26gt=3B quality =3CBR=3E=26=
gt=3B for explicit attention to language within the context of writing-=3C=
BR=3E=26gt=3B -very =3CBR=3E=26gt=3B specifically=2C in context of genre=
=2C involving ordinary English =3CBR=3E=26gt=3B teachers=2E =3CBR=3E=26g=
t=3B So that would seem to show that this is not an either/or choice=2E =
=3CBR=3E=26gt=3B If we =3CBR=3E=26gt=3B had to choose between error focu=
sed grammar and meaning focused =3CBR=3E=26gt=3B reading =3CBR=3E=26gt=3B=
and writing=2C I would opt for the latter=2C but that is a false =3CBR=3E=
=26gt=3B choice =3CBR=3E=26gt=3B built out of a shallow (non-scientific)=
understanding of grammar=2E=3CBR=3E=26gt=3B =26nbsp=3B=26nbsp=3B=26nbsp=
=3B=26nbsp=3B Deep engagement=26nbsp=3B in reading and =3CBR=3E=26gt=3B =
writing helps=2E The most productive =3CBR=3E=26gt=3B thing a writing te=
acher can do is ask students to write and then =3CBR=3E=26gt=3B take =3C=
BR=3E=26gt=3B that writing seriously=2E But we should also include a dee=
p =3CBR=3E=26gt=3B exploration of =3CBR=3E=26gt=3B language within Engli=
sh studies=2E For some strange reason=2C those =3CBR=3E=26gt=3B approach=
es have been made to seem incompatible=2E We need to move =3CBR=3E=26gt=3B=
past that=2E=3CBR=3E=26gt=3B =26nbsp=3B=26nbsp=3B=26nbsp=3B=26nbsp=3B I=
t is hard to have a discussion about =3CBR=3E=26gt=3B the nature of lang=
uage study =3CBR=3E=26gt=3B with people who have never studied language=2E=
It would seem to me =3CBR=3E=26gt=3B that =3CBR=3E=26gt=3B they should =
ask questions about it rather than give answers to =3CBR=3E=26gt=3B thos=
e =3CBR=3E=26gt=3B questions on their own=2E At one point in my teaching=
life=2C I =3CBR=3E=26gt=3B decided I =3CBR=3E=26gt=3B needed to know a =
great deal more about language=2C and many years =3CBR=3E=26gt=3B later =
I =3CBR=3E=26gt=3B am still moving down that path=2E Because I am fundam=
entally a =3CBR=3E=26gt=3B writing and =3CBR=3E=26gt=3B reading teacher=2C=
I have been drawn toward some approaches and =3CBR=3E=26gt=3B have trie=
d =3CBR=3E=26gt=3B to promote those on the list=2E=3CBR=3E=26gt=3B =26nb=
sp=3B=26nbsp=3B=26nbsp=3B=26nbsp=3B Knowledge about language is valuable=
=2E =3CBR=3E=26gt=3B Why English teachers would =3CBR=3E=26gt=3B resist =
that is beyond me=2E One form that resistance takes is to =3CBR=3E=26gt=3B=
degrade =3CBR=3E=26gt=3B the science behind it=2E If it=27s just =22sub=
jective=2C=22 then there=27s =3CBR=3E=26gt=3B no value =3CBR=3E=26gt=3B =
in it=2E=3CBR=3E=26gt=3B =3CBR=3E=26gt=3B Craig=3CBR=3E=26gt=3B On 11/23=
/2010 7=3A25 AM=2C Eduard Hanganu wrote=3A=3CBR=3E=26gt=3B =26gt=3B=3CBR=
=3E=26gt=3B =26gt=3B=26nbsp=3B Craig=2C=3CBR=3E=26gt=3B =26gt=3B=3CBR=3E=
=26gt=3B =26gt=3B=26nbsp=3B I learned English in a foreign country from =
=3CBR=3E=26gt=3B dictionaries=2C textbooks=2C=3CBR=3E=26gt=3B =26gt=3B=26=
nbsp=3B and PRESCRIPTIVE GRAMMARS=2C and I believe that I have a better=3C=
BR=3E=26gt=3B =26gt=3B=26nbsp=3B command of English than more than 80 pe=
r cent of the =22native=22=3CBR=3E=26gt=3B =26gt=3B=26nbsp=3B American u=
sers of the English language=2E =22Native=22 users =3CBR=3E=26gt=3B of E=
nglish=3CBR=3E=26gt=3B =26gt=3B=26nbsp=3B =22acquire=22 it in a non-pres=
criptive way=2E Is this why they =3CBR=3E=26gt=3B cannot=26gt=3B=26nbsp=3B=
speak=2C read=2C and write in English=3F=3CBR=3E=26gt=3B =26gt=3B=3CBR=3E=
=26gt=3B =26gt=3B=26nbsp=3B Eduard=3CBR=3E=26gt=3B =26gt=3B=3CBR=3E=26gt=
=3B =26gt=3B=26nbsp=3B ----- Original Message ----- From=3A Craig Hancoc=
k =3CBR=3E=26gt=3B =26lt=3Bhancock=40ALBANY=2EEDU=26gt=3B=26gt=3B=26nbsp=
=3B Date=3A Monday=2C November 22=2C 2010 =3CBR=3E=26gt=3B 11=3A34 Subje=
ct=3A Re=3A grammar term=3CBR=3E=26gt=3B =26gt=3B=26nbsp=3B definitions =
To=3A ATEG=40LISTSERV=2EMUOHIO=2EEDU=3CBR=3E=26gt=3B =26gt=3B=3CBR=3E=26=
gt=3B =26gt=3B =26gt=3B Susan=2C You mention Pinker in an earlier post=2E=
This is from The=3CBR=3E=26gt=3B =26gt=3B =26gt=3B Language Instinct=2C=
p=2E 384 in my paperback version=2E =22Prescriptive=3CBR=3E=26gt=3B =26=
gt=3B =26gt=3B rules are useless without the much more fundamental rules=
that=3CBR=3E=26gt=3B =26gt=3B =26gt=3B create the sentences=2E=2E=2E Wh=
en a scientist considers all the high=3CBR=3E=26gt=3B =26gt=3B =26gt=3B =
tech mental machinery needed to arrange words into ordinary=3CBR=3E=26gt=
=3B =26gt=3B =26gt=3B sentences=2C prescriptive rules are=2C at best=2C =
inconsequential little=3CBR=3E=26gt=3B =26gt=3B =26gt=3B decorations=2E=22=
The truth that grammar can reveal would be=2C in=3CBR=3E=26gt=3B =26gt=3B=
=26gt=3B Pinker=27s words=2C =22the much more fundamental rules that cr=
eate the=3CBR=3E=26gt=3B =26gt=3B =26gt=3B sentences=2E=22=3CBR=3E=26gt=3B=
=26gt=3B =26gt=3B=3CBR=3E=26gt=3B =26gt=3B =26gt=3B Craig=3CBR=3E=26gt=3B=
=26gt=3B =26gt=3B=3CBR=3E=26gt=3B =26gt=3B =26gt=3B On 11/21/2010 10=3A=
00 PM=2C Susan van Druten wrote=3A=3CBR=3E=26gt=3B =26gt=3B =26gt=3B=26g=
t=3B On Nov 21=2C 2010=2C at 7=3A39 PM=2C Craig Hancock wrote=3A=3CBR=3E=
=26gt=3B =26gt=3B =26gt=3B=26gt=3B=26gt=3B Do you believe that dictionar=
ies can=27t be scientific=3F=3CBR=3E=26gt=3B =26gt=3B =26gt=3B=26gt=3B D=
o you believe that discographies can=27t be scientific=3F=3CBR=3E=26gt=3B=
=26gt=3B =26gt=3B=26gt=3B=3CBR=3E=26gt=3B =26gt=3B =26gt=3B=26gt=3B=26g=
t=3B Prescriptive grammarians often seem to have a messianic=3CBR=3E=26g=
t=3B =26gt=3B =26gt=3B passion behind=3CBR=3E=26gt=3B =26gt=3B =26gt=3B=26=
gt=3B=26gt=3B their activities=2E It hardly seems scientific=2E=3CBR=3E=26=
gt=3B =26gt=3B =26gt=3B=26gt=3B Correct=2E Prescriptive grammarians are=3C=
BR=3E=26gt=3B =26gt=3B =26gt=3B pseudoscientists=2E Messianic means you =
think you know what is=3CBR=3E=26gt=3B =26gt=3B =26gt=3B =22truth=22 and=
right for all people when you don=27t because other=3CBR=3E=26gt=3B =26=
gt=3B =26gt=3B people have a different =22truth=2E=22 Scientists aren=27=
t =3CBR=3E=26gt=3B messianic=2C yet=3CBR=3E=26gt=3B =26gt=3B =26gt=3B th=
ey tell Truth=2E=3CBR=3E=26gt=3B =26gt=3B =26gt=3B=26gt=3B=3CBR=3E=26gt=3B=
=26gt=3B =26gt=3B=26gt=3B What Truth do grammarians have to tell=3F=3CB=
R=3E=26gt=3B =26gt=3B =26gt=3B=26gt=3B=3CBR=3E=26gt=3B =26gt=3B =26gt=3B=
=26gt=3B=3CBR=3E=26gt=3B =26gt=3B =26gt=3B=26gt=3B=3CBR=3E=26gt=3B =26gt=
=3B =26gt=3B=26gt=3B=3CBR=3E=26gt=3B =26gt=3B =26gt=3B=26gt=3B=3CBR=3E=26=
gt=3B =26gt=3B =26gt=3B=26gt=3B=3CBR=3E=26gt=3B =26gt=3B =26gt=3B=26gt=3B=
=3CBR=3E=26gt=3B =26gt=3B =26gt=3B=26gt=3B=3CBR=3E=26gt=3B =26gt=3B =26g=
t=3B=26gt=3B=3CBR=3E=26gt=3B =26gt=3B =26gt=3B=26gt=3B=3CBR=3E=26gt=3B =26=
gt=3B =26gt=3B=26gt=3B=3CBR=3E=26gt=3B =26gt=3B =26gt=3B=26gt=3B=3CBR=3E=
=26gt=3B =26gt=3B =26gt=3B=26gt=3B=3CBR=3E=26gt=3B =26gt=3B =26gt=3B=26g=
t=3B=26gt=3B=26gt=3B=26gt=3B If the main points you are trying to make=3C=
BR=3E=26gt=3B =26gt=3B =26gt=3B are=2E=2E=2E=26gt=3B=26gt=3B=26gt=3B In =
this thread I have had only one main point=3A As a=3CBR=3E=26gt=3B =26gt=
=3B =26gt=3B field of inquiry=2C=3CBR=3E=26gt=3B =26gt=3B =26gt=3B=26gt=3B=
=26gt=3B=26gt=3B grammar is not science=2E=3CBR=3E=26gt=3B =26gt=3B =26g=
t=3B=26gt=3B=26gt=3B=26gt=3B=3CBR=3E=26gt=3B =26gt=3B =26gt=3B=26gt=3B=26=
gt=3B=26gt=3B I know that you understand the stupidity of believing=3CBR=
=3E=26gt=3B =26gt=3B =26gt=3B prescriptive grammar=3CBR=3E=26gt=3B =26gt=
=3B =26gt=3B=26gt=3B=26gt=3B=26gt=3B is The Way=2E But if you believe gr=
ammar is ultimately=3CBR=3E=26gt=3B =26gt=3B =26gt=3B scientific=2C then=
you=3CBR=3E=26gt=3B =26gt=3B =26gt=3B=26gt=3B=26gt=3B=26gt=3B contradic=
t yourself=2E Ultimately grammar is=3CBR=3E=26gt=3B =26gt=3B =26gt=3B de=
mocratic=2E But science=3CBR=3E=26gt=3B =26gt=3B =26gt=3B=26gt=3B=26gt=3B=
=26gt=3B doesn=27t vote=2E=3CBR=3E=26gt=3B =26gt=3B =26gt=3B=26gt=3B=26g=
t=3B=26gt=3B=3CBR=3E=26gt=3B =26gt=3B =26gt=3B=26gt=3B=26gt=3B=26gt=3B T=
hat crazy =22had=22 guy on this list demands we all follow a=3CBR=3E=26g=
t=3B =26gt=3B =26gt=3B scientific=2C=26gt=3B=26gt=3B=26gt=3B prescriptiv=
e rule he learned once=2E Most of us=3CBR=3E=26gt=3B =26gt=3B =26gt=3B l=
augh=2C but those of you who=3CBR=3E=26gt=3B =26gt=3B =26gt=3B=26gt=3B=26=
gt=3B=26gt=3B believe grammar is science=2C can=27t laugh=2E Crazy=3CBR=3E=
=26gt=3B =26gt=3B =26gt=3B =22had=22 guy puts you=2C the=3CBR=3E=26gt=3B=
=26gt=3B =26gt=3B=26gt=3B=26gt=3B=26gt=3B scientific grammarian=2C in a=
bind=2E Mediator Girl comes=3CBR=3E=26gt=3B =26gt=3B =26gt=3B in and sa=
ys=2C =22You=2C=3CBR=3E=26gt=3B =26gt=3B =26gt=3B=26gt=3B=26gt=3B=26gt=3B=
drop the lab coat=2E And=2C you=2C drop your dogma=2E=22=3CBR=3E=26gt=3B=
=26gt=3B =26gt=3B When you insists your=3CBR=3E=26gt=3B =26gt=3B =26gt=3B=
=26gt=3B=26gt=3B=26gt=3B unscientific beliefs are real=2C you create ext=
remists who=3CBR=3E=26gt=3B =26gt=3B =26gt=3B refuse to take=3CBR=3E=26g=
t=3B =26gt=3B =26gt=3B=26gt=3B=26gt=3B=26gt=3B you metaphorically (becau=
se you deny the metaphor)=2E=3CBR=3E=26gt=3B =26gt=3B =26gt=3B Maybe if =
you come=3CBR=3E=26gt=3B =26gt=3B =26gt=3B=26gt=3B=26gt=3B=26gt=3B clean=
about the lack of science=2C crazy =22had=22 guy could move=3CBR=3E=26g=
t=3B =26gt=3B =26gt=3B on=2E The 72=3CBR=3E=26gt=3B =26gt=3B =26gt=3B=26=
gt=3B=26gt=3B=26gt=3B virgins aren=27t science=2E There=27s no reward fo=
r beliefs=3CBR=3E=26gt=3B =26gt=3B =26gt=3B that aren=27t real=2E=3CBR=3E=
=26gt=3B =26gt=3B =26gt=3B=26gt=3B=26gt=3B=26gt=3B=3CBR=3E=26gt=3B =26gt=
=3B =26gt=3B=26gt=3B=26gt=3B=26gt=3B=3CBR=3E=26gt=3B =26gt=3B =26gt=3B=26=
gt=3B=26gt=3B=26gt=3B On Nov 21=2C 2010=2C at 5=3A10 PM=2C Craig Hancock=
wrote=3A=3CBR=3E=26gt=3B =26gt=3B =26gt=3B=26gt=3B=26gt=3B=26gt=3B=3CBR=
=3E=26gt=3B =26gt=3B =26gt=3B=26gt=3B=26gt=3B=26gt=3B=26gt=3B Susan=2C I=
f the main points you are trying to make=3CBR=3E=26gt=3B =26gt=3B =26gt=3B=
are that grammar should not=3CBR=3E=26gt=3B =26gt=3B =26gt=3B=26gt=3B=26=
gt=3B=26gt=3B=26gt=3B be entirely prescriptive and that prescriptive gra=
mmarians=3CBR=3E=26gt=3B =26gt=3B =26gt=3B should not=3CBR=3E=26gt=3B =26=
gt=3B =26gt=3B=26gt=3B=26gt=3B=26gt=3B=26gt=3B claim scientific certaint=
y behind their prescriptive=3CBR=3E=26gt=3B =26gt=3B =26gt=3B=26gt=3B=26=
gt=3B=26gt=3B=26gt=3B rules=2C=3CBR=3E=26gt=3B =26gt=3B =26gt=3B I am ha=
ppy=3CBR=3E=26gt=3B =26gt=3B =26gt=3B=26gt=3B=26gt=3B=26gt=3B=26gt=3B to=
agree=2E Apparently=2C we have very different ideas about=3CBR=3E=26gt=3B=
=26gt=3B =26gt=3B science=2E To=3CBR=3E=26gt=3B =26gt=3B =26gt=3B=26gt=3B=
=26gt=3B=26gt=3B=26gt=3B me=2C a scientist observes the world and tries =
to make sense=3CBR=3E=26gt=3B =26gt=3B =26gt=3B out of it=2E=3CBR=3E=26g=
t=3B =26gt=3B =26gt=3B=26gt=3B=26gt=3B=26gt=3B=26gt=3B He/she may have v=
ery human values that drive that--a=3CBR=3E=26gt=3B =26gt=3B =26gt=3B=26=
gt=3B=26gt=3B=26gt=3B=26gt=3B desire=3CBR=3E=26gt=3B =26gt=3B =26gt=3B t=
o cure=3CBR=3E=26gt=3B =26gt=3B =26gt=3B=26gt=3B=26gt=3B=26gt=3B=26gt=3B=
cancer=2C for example--but those are not the science=2E I=3CBR=3E=26gt=3B=
=26gt=3B =26gt=3B=26gt=3B=26gt=3B=26gt=3B=26gt=3B think=3CBR=3E=26gt=3B=
=26gt=3B =26gt=3B there is=3CBR=3E=26gt=3B =26gt=3B =26gt=3B=26gt=3B=26=
gt=3B=26gt=3B=26gt=3B room for patient observation and disciplined inqui=
ry in=3CBR=3E=26gt=3B =26gt=3B =26gt=3B=26gt=3B=26gt=3B=26gt=3B=26gt=3B =
the=3CBR=3E=26gt=3B =26gt=3B =26gt=3B study of=3CBR=3E=26gt=3B =26gt=3B =
=26gt=3B=26gt=3B=26gt=3B=26gt=3B=26gt=3B language=2E We should understan=
d how it works apart from=3CBR=3E=26gt=3B =26gt=3B =26gt=3B trying to=3C=
BR=3E=26gt=3B =26gt=3B =26gt=3B=26gt=3B=26gt=3B=26gt=3B=26gt=3B control =
other people=27s use of it=2E=3CBR=3E=26gt=3B =26gt=3B =26gt=3B=26gt=3B=26=
gt=3B=26gt=3B=26gt=3B=3CBR=3E=26gt=3B =26gt=3B =26gt=3B=26gt=3B=26gt=3B=26=
gt=3B=26gt=3B Craig=3CBR=3E=26gt=3B =26gt=3B =26gt=3B=26gt=3B=26gt=3B=26=
gt=3B=26gt=3B=3CBR=3E=26gt=3B =26gt=3B =26gt=3B=26gt=3B=26gt=3B=26gt=3B=26=
gt=3B=3CBR=3E=26gt=3B =26gt=3B =26gt=3B=26gt=3B=26gt=3B=26gt=3B=26gt=3B =
On Nov 21=2C 2010=2C at 4=3A25 PM=2C Craig Hancock wrote=3A=3CBR=3E=26gt=
=3B =26gt=3B =26gt=3B=26gt=3B=26gt=3B=26gt=3B=26gt=3B=26gt=3B=26gt=3B I =
agree that grammar stops being a science when it=3CBR=3E=26gt=3B =26gt=3B=
=26gt=3B becomes narrowly=3CBR=3E=26gt=3B =26gt=3B =26gt=3B=26gt=3B=26g=
t=3B=26gt=3B=26gt=3B=26gt=3B=26gt=3B prescriptive=2E=3CBR=3E=26gt=3B =26=
gt=3B =26gt=3B=26gt=3B=26gt=3B=26gt=3B=26gt=3B=26gt=3B You have this com=
pletely turned around=2E Science is=3CBR=3E=26gt=3B =26gt=3B =26gt=3B =22=
prescriptive=2E=22=26gt=3B=26gt=3B=26gt=3B=26gt=3B=26gt=3B=3CBR=3E=26gt=3B=
=26gt=3B =26gt=3B=26gt=3B=26gt=3B=26gt=3B=26gt=3B=26gt=3B Those who try=
to put prescriptive rules and laws on=3CBR=3E=26gt=3B =26gt=3B =26gt=3B=
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gt=3B science=2E Your=3CBR=3E=26gt=3B =26gt=3B =26gt=3B=26gt=3B=26gt=3B=26=
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gt=3B grammar ought=3CBR=3E=26gt=3B =26gt=3B =26gt=3B to be=3CBR=3E=26gt=
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------------------------------
Date: Tue, 23 Nov 2010 18:24:07 -0600
From: Susan van Druten <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Re: grammar term definitions
On Nov 22, 2010, at 10:00 PM, Spruiell, William C wrote:
> (a) being able to predict something that hasn't been observed before =
and then later determining whether the prediction's right or not, and
> (b) being able to say that new examples of the same kind of thing we =
already know about act the way we think they should.=20
> If type A is the equivalent of making Beef Wellington, type B is =
microwaving some tater tots.=20
I don't see why you are ranking these different types of knowledge. We =
need both; each has its place, and to me both are Beef Wellington. When =
I say grammar is not a science, all you can hear is me accusing you of =
pushing tater tots. Yikes, no wonder I've met with such resistance.
> Saussure's reconstruction of a laryngeal fricative for PIE
Great example. He was using good reasoning skills, but I would not call =
him a scientist: he was not studying the natural world, his discovery =
was not fruitful, it didn't open up new areas of study, or "help =
explain and predict the most diverse phenomena" (Schick and Vaughn). =
Let's say he used the same methods to determine that a primitive culture =
worshipped a particular type of god. If unknown documents were then =
discovered to reveal that this culture did indeed worship this god, does =
this make him a scientist? No, he is a really good anthropologist. =
Same argument goes for all the other social scientists, including =
economics, history, political science, psychology, and sociology.
> If you're expecting a physicist-style model, the linguist-style one =
might be annoying.=20
I agree. And vise versa. Physicists and grammarian/linguist are =
dealing with different types of knowledge and different ways of knowing =
that knowledge. We need words to differentiate this different kind of =
knowledge. Why do you want to merge them? You sure you want to call =
yourself an iffy-scientist or tater-tot teacher?
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------------------------------
Date: Tue, 23 Nov 2010 20:51:22 -0600
From: Susan van Druten <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Re: grammar term definitions
Eduard,
Science is the study of the natural world. The type of knowledge it can =
uncover is testable, is fruitful, explains and predicts diverse =
phenomena, provides the simplest (Occamian) explanation, and does not =
conflict with establish beliefs (unless it does more of the others as =
"compensation"). This is not my personal explanation, as I do not have =
one because a good definition of science should not have subjective =
definitions.
By the way, someone who is artful with language knows that repeatedly =
telling someone she shouldn't take offense means you'd like her to do =
just that. If you believe you have a better command of English than 80% =
of native speakers, does that mean your intent was to be insulting? I =
choose to believe that your weren't being deliberately insulting, which =
means that your command of language isn't as precise as you believe. =
However, I could be wrong. If only we could run a controlled =
experiment!
Susan
On Nov 23, 2010, at 6:18 AM, Eduard Hanganu wrote:
> Susan,
> =20
> I have a couple of dictionaries at hand. I can look up words. What I =
asked you was for YOUR PERSONAL DEFINITION of science. What is science =
to you? Your definition of science seems to exclude grammar. So, again, =
what is your definition of science? One sentence or paragraph, please.
> No offense intended.
> =20
> I learned English in a foreign country from dictionaries, textbooks, =
and PRESCRIPTIVE GRAMMARS, and I believe that I have a better command of =
English than more than 80 per cent of the "native" American users of =
the English language. "Native" users of English "acquire" it in a =
non-prescriptive way. Is this why they cannot speak, read, and write in =
English?
> =20
> Eduard=20
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------------------------------
End of ATEG Digest - 22 Nov 2010 to 23 Nov 2010 (#2010-205)
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