Ed, smile. I surely did appreciate your affirmation that "And remember, in
spite of the tone of my comments, I'm on your side.
>Ed"

I do appreciate that. smile.... cuz it is surely both my hope and my committed
goal that we are all on the same side.

BTW, I don't know how the whole issue of "completeness" vs. "Incompleteness"
got introduced here, to begin with.   But since it has gotten introduced,
notice that in my last email, I did NOT assert that the facts regarding the
'incompleteness' of "John is ___" should be taught in a Grammar class in
college.

What I did was ASK whether such facts should be taught.

And by "such facts", what I MEANT, was not anything about completeness, or
incompleteness, but something more about regular predictable patterns of
sentences.... (going back to Morenberg's statement of 6 types that I cited
earlier, or the similar basic types augmented, as Johanna showed, by thematic
roles, so that we have several levels of structure inside a sentence).

Actually, one of my central goals with students in a grammar class is to help
them feel comfortable and competent at what is going on in English sentences.
My experience with people and their FEELINGS about grammar is that they are
pretty durned alienated, bored, and frightened. I'm sure you all have the same
experience I do with people first learning what you do. You say you're an
English teacher, and the first thing they do is either make excuses for their
grammar, assert that they know no grammar, or start recounting how the
language is going to the dogs.

In a recent Advanced Grammar class I taught, students talked about how they
feared being judged stupid, incompetent, and inadequate based upon their
"grammar."

A number of these students (junior level college) were unable to identify the
verb in a sentence.  Some could identify the subject, but plunk a relative
clause on the simple subject, and they no longer could identify the verb and
they couldn't identify the subject either.

So, one goal of mine in a grammar class is helping the students come to feel
comfortable with what is going on in an increasingly broad sampling of English
text (sentences... at this point). It's like helping them stop the spinning in
their heads, and to feel calm, and secure at being able to understand and
identify the workings in an English sentence.

Ok, so what does this have to do with Ed's posting this afternoon?

When he says that he might treat issues of "incompleteness or whatever you
call it" of "John is ___" at the end of 12th grade, if he had time for such
linguistic matters.....

well.... ya know, I don't really see it as an abstruse "linguistic" matter.

Students are likely to readily come across such examples -- "John is."   But
when they come upon such a sentence  what are they to make of that structure?
Is it a fundamentally different type than "John is happy" or is it the same
type as that? If they can see it as basically the same as "John is happy..."
and can understand why it is basically the same (the 'happy' is picked up from
the preceding sentence) then they've taken some concrete steps in recognizing
general patterns in the language, as they actually occur. And in my
experience, students feel much gratified in this.

That's why the model of a few basic sentence types, identified based on phrase
structure (NP, V, AdjP, AdvP, PP) accompanied by their function (jobs they do,
as I say to students -- subject, object, complement. etc), with discussion of
thematic roles (agent, patient, beneficiary, ...) is so POWERFUL. I tell
students in the beginning of Advanced Grammar, that we will begin by exploring
6 basic patterns of sentences in English.  And then I make them a promise. I
tell them that every (written?) sentence we see, no matter how complex, will
be a variant of one of these 6 types.  So, if they come to know those 6 types
through and through, then they will slowly be able to identify/analyze
anything they come across.

I have found this gives students a handhold that encourages them greatly, and
lets them believe in themselves, and begin to get over their fears.

So, I would not talk about the "incompleteness" of "John is..." in a grammar
class. Upon encountering such a sentence (as in my kiku, the errant puppy,
example), I'd ask students what they make of it... I'd ask them if there
really are 6 patterns of sentences, which one is this?

So, check y'all later

:)
rebecca




>Rebecca's response about "completeness" raises a fundamental point. She
agrees that she would not teach it in a comp class, but sees it as something
she would teach in a "grammar" class. My question is Ø can she (or we)
convince most English teachers that such stuff belongs in an "English Grammar"
class. My guess it that most teachers will find that they have plenty to do in
a "grammar class" simply teaching students to be able to identify and discuss
the implications of prepositional phrases, subjects, verbs, clauses, and
participles. Why do they need to know about these "incomplete" sentences.
>     No, I'm not playing devil's advocate here. If, after we ideally have a
suggested curriculum, if we find that there is time left (in the students'
work), then I have no problems with introducing such linguistic questions.
Indeed, the model I have proposed includes the option for twelfth grade of
studying more aspects of general linguistics. I don't however, see the
relevance of teaching all students that "John is" is an "incomplete" or
whatever else you want to call it, sentence. And remember Ø in spite of the
tone of my comments, I'm on your side.
>Ed

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Until 5/15
Rebecca S. Wheeler, Ph.D.       [log in to unmask]
1201 University Circle
Department of English		      office phone:	  (801) 626-6009	
Weber State University		office fax:	  (801) 626-7760
Ogden, UTah 84408-1201			
	       	 USA	

After 6/1
Rebecca S. Wheeler, Ph.D.
Assistant Professor of English
Christopher Newport University
Newport News, VA 23606	
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