Trudy Grisham wrote:

> It is with great trepidation that I leave my lurkdom and presume to 
> post to this group, but you asked for a little input from elementary 
> teachers and I have a little experience.
>
>  I have taught what I considered traditional grammar to sixth graders 
> for the past fifteen years. Yes, it's confusing for them; and, at 
> times, me. However, without giving students the vocabulary of grammar, 
> I have felt that we could not discuss their errors in their writing. 
> For the most part, the students have come to me thinking that they 
> know nouns and verbs. And they've heard of adjectives and adverbs. 
> Forget about the other parts of speech and the parts of a sentence. 
> The students haven't even heard of phrases or clauses. I consider them 
> a clean slate when it comes to any knowledge of grammar.
>
>  With some, I am successful. With others, well, let's just say that 
> they need more time to absorb the information.
>
>  As an excuse I offer up the fact that when queried, their earlier 
> teachers had NO formal training in grammar themselves. I'm old enough 
> to have had grammar training in my jr high and high school experiences.
>
> Trudy
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: [log in to unmask]
> To: [log in to unmask]
> Sent: Tue, 22 Aug 2006 9:54 AM
> Subject: Re: Defining Traditional Grammar
>
>  You're overthinking it a bit. The parts of speech have a validity 
> independent
>  of the meanings of independent words which is why we can classify 
> them the way
>  we do. Nouns are the easiest to demonstrate this. A noun is merely 
> another
>  word for an entity, something which exists in time and space. At this 
> point the
>  wiseacre in the back of the room pipes up with, "what about ghost?he, 
> he he."
>  And you say, yes, "the ghost that I saw in the park last night" is an 
> entity in
>  time and space, as are abstract ideas such as, "I had an IDEA in the 
> park last
> night."
>
>  Nouns and verbs are confusing for elementary school students but so 
> are numbers
>  and letters and addition and subtraction and everything else that is 
> being
>  presented to him. We don't excuse ourselves from the difficult task 
> of teaching
>  just because children are confused. We EXPECT them to be confused and 
> then we
> teach a little bit more.
>
> Phil Bralich
>
> -----Original Message-----
> >From: James Bear <[log in to unmask]>
> >Sent: Aug 21, 2006 5:00 PM
> >To: [log in to unmask]
> >Subject: Re: Defining Traditional Grammar
> >
> >I would guess that elementary teachers don't respond because nouns,
> >verbs, and so forth are confusing for an elementary student. They
> >already know most of the rules for the language whether they can
> >verbalize them or not. And so when we declare dolls, pencils, and so
> >forth nouns, they suddenly declare that these words are nouns. But
>  >darnit, words are not nouns. Words are symbolic references to thought.
> >'Pencil' is not a noun. 'Pencil' is a symbolic representation of
> >something. But the word is not the thing.
> >
> >My 5-year-old knew, when I said, "What's a pencil?" that the correct
> >answer was noun. Because it is in context. He might be able to make
> >the leap if I gave him a a list of words (if he knew his letters yet)
> >that 'pencil' was a noun. But it is a leap without context and quite
> >possibly a damaging leap because it limits his focus. Nothing
>  >infuriates me more than a group of students who see a word like 
> 'pencil'
>  >in a sentence such as "I will pencil it in" and then they tell me it is
> >a noun. Seniors in high school will do this. My 5-year-old who
>  >couldn't tell you the difference between an 's' and an 'f' understands
>  >parts of speech better than my seniors who come in out of a traditional
> >grammar regiment.
> >
>  >And so, why would an elementary teacher not participate? Well, probably
>  >because she (look at my stereotype...) knows that when she teaches her
>  >traditional grammar that her students simply aren't getting anything 
> out
> >of it even if they do memorize lists of words. What if she would say
> >something to that effect to a list such as this? I've been watching
> >this list long enough to know what the responses would be.
> >
> >Eduard C. Hanganu wrote:
> >> Herb,
> >>
> >> One of the problems I see in the ATEG forum is that there is very
> >> little participation from the ranks of public school teachers, and
> >> especially from the primary grades. Most of the discussions seem to
> >> occur at a college level. In order for the ATEG group to develop a
> >> practical grammar which would indeed benefit students there must be
>  >> input from educators who teach at such basic levels. We need to know
> >> how they approach the teaching of grammar for their students, and
> >> what the needs and expectations are at different levels in public
> >> school.
> >>
> >> Eduard
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >> On Sun, 20 Aug 2006, Herbert F.W. Stahlke wrote...
> >>
> >>
> >>> Eduard,
> >>> =20
> >>> I was writing in the context of the Scope and Sequence program,
> >>>
> >> where =
> >>
> >>> the goal is to provide developmentally appropriate grammar
> >>>
> >> instruction =
> >>
>  >>> that build as students are ready to master new concepts, principles,
> >>>
> >> =
> >>
> >>> analyses, etc. Whether you want to call this one or several
> >>>
> >> grammars =
> >>
> >>> doesn't make a whole lot of difference. As a university-level
> >>>
> >> teacher, =
> >>
> >>> not K-12, I see my role as a step or two removed. I can provide
> >>>
> >> content =
> >>
> >>> and can assist with the development of content, but I wouldn't
> >>>
> >> pretend =
> >>
> >>> to any expertise in K12 curriculum and pedagogy. That I'll
> >>>
> >> gratefully =
> >>
> >>> leave to those on the list who are specialized in these areas.
> >>> =20
> >>> Herb
> >>>
> >>> ________________________________
> >>>
> >>> From: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar on behalf of
> >>>
> >> Eduard =
> >>
> >>> C. Hanganu
> >>> Sent: Sun 8/20/2006 7:35 AM
> >>> To: [log in to unmask]
> >>> Subject: Re: Defining Traditional Grammar
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>
> >>> Herb:
> >>>
>  >>> I agree with you. There is much more to be said about grammar than I
>  >>> did, but I was referring to basic guiding principles, and not to the
>  >>> details. Still I am getting a little confused: do you want to 
> write a
> >>> grammar encyclopaedia, or a practical grammar? And if you want to
> >>> write a practical grammar ( which is my assumption) for which grade
> >>>
> >> (s)
> >>
> >>> are you going to write that grammar? It appears to me that we will
>  >>> necessarily have to write grammarS, not just a grammar, each 
> adjusted
>  >>> to some school level. One thing is to teach grammar to the 
> elementary
> >>> school students, another to teach grammar to college students. Each
> >>> such level would require a grammar specifically written for its own
> >>> purposes.
> >>>
> >>> Eduard
> >>>
> >>>
> >>> On Fri, 18 Aug 2006, Herbert F.W. Stahlke wrote...
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>> Eduard,
> >>>>
>  >>>> Quite a lot, in fact, as I suggested in my posting to Phil. Part of
> >>>>
> >>> my
> >>>
>  >>>> problem in this discourse is that I come from a background in which
> >>>> traditional grammar includes Jespersen, Poutsma, Kruizinga, and
> >>>>
> >>> others
> >>>
> >>>> of the great 19th and 20th c. scholars of English grammar.=20
> >>>>
> >>> Traditional
> >>>
> >>>> school grammar, like what is found in the Warriner's series, for
>  >>>> example, a series that was used widely in American high schools for
> >>>> quite a long time, is in part of reduction of this combined with a
> >>>> variety of stylistic prescriptions and proscriptions. I don't have
> >>>>
> >>> the
> >>>
>  >>>> negative reaction Fries had, because I go back to Jespersen on a 
> lot
> >>>>
> >>> of
> >>>
> >>>> matters. However, I agree with Fries as to the sometimes mindless
> >>>>
> >>> way
> >>>
> >>>> in which traditional grammar has been reduced to a few inflexible
> >>>>
> >>> terms,
> >>>
> >>>> concepts, and maxims.
> >>>>
> >>>> Herb
> >>>>
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> >>>
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> >>>
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> >>>
> >> interface at:
> >>
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> >>>
> >>> Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/
> >>>
> >>
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> interface
> at:
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> >>
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> >>
> >>
> >
> >--
> >
> >James Sebastian Bear
> >Montpelier Public School
> >www.montpelier.k12.nd.us/classroom.html
> >
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Trudy,

Out of a class of 20 students in my grammar class for juniors and 
seniors in college, including mostly English majors, about two have had 
training in grammar in the middle school or high school. Many times that 
training is quite limited, so students really learn grammar for the 
first time. I suppose I could argue that their not having training in 
grammar is an advantage to me as their instructor.

Marshall

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