> Herb,
    To me, seeing it as complex transitive helps show the similarities to
other complements that tend to be brought about by the action.    He
made me captain. He made me angry. He put me in my place. All three,
of course, are easily re-expressed as copular complements. "I am
captain." "I am angry." "I am in my place."
   I like your goals. If they come out of the course remembering that
different verbs "license" different kinds of complements, and that
shades of meaning come with that, I think they will be well served.
   Mark Turner uses the sentence as "story" in "The Literary Mind".  I
find that very productive. It may also be what Halliday means when he
talks about this as the most congruent way of understanding the world.
(Actors and processes and circumstances.) When sentences become
"nominalized", the processes get embedded into the noun phrases, and it
can be hard to unpack the meanings. I just sent a reply to Bob that
includes a pretty good example. Here's another.
   "The nominalization of processes into the actor roles of a sentence is
a characteristic of complex prose within the technical disciplines."
Halliday calls it "grammatical metaphor." My apologies for mixing the
posts, but it seemed a useful connection.

Craig


Craig,
>
> In "That hit me as odd" "hit" looks like a complex transitive, but in
> your two examples I'd classify it as a transitive locative.  However,
> it's at this point where we have to ask whether more classes of verbs is
> pedagogically useful.  I've found seven to work pretty well with my
> classes, and that includes both intransitive and transitive locatives
> ("Jack resides in Hollywood" is an intransitive locative.)  I used to
> make a distinction between copular (be) and linking verbs (seem, feel,
> appear), but that was a little too close for students to find useful.
> But the important concepts are the distinction between complements and
> modifiers and the notion licensing, that is, what sorts of complements a
> verb allows.  And students can see readily that a verb may license
> several different complement structures, and have slightly or
> significantly different meanings with different complements.
>
> An approach to teaching verb patterns that I've found useful is to
> present the sentence as a story.  Its plot is the verb.  Its
> participants are the subject and the complements, and its setting is
> whatever modifiers the sentence has.  Like all metaphors, this one will
> snap if stretched too far, but they get the notion that English tells a
> small number of basic stories with its different verb classes because
> the metaphor attaches a sort of semiotic sense to the structure.
> They're least comfortable, I find, with structure for its own sake.
>
> Herb
>
>
> Herb,
>    It seems to me "hit" has a complex transitive pattern as well. "He
> hit
> the vase off the table." "He hit the ball into the stands." I don't
> think traditional grammar recognizes those adverbials as complements,
> but it seems clear to me.>It's not where the hitting happened, but what
> happened to the vase or the table as a result of the action.
>    I am continually humbled by how much I don't know. I'll check out
> Levin's book.
>
> Craig
>
>  Craig,
>>
>> The specialized ESL dictionaries, like the Oxford Advanced Learner's
>> Dictionary or the Longman Dictionary of Contemporary English include
>> grammatical patterns in their definitions, and for a word like "hit"
> there
>> will be two entries, one as a transitive and one as a ditransitive.
> The
>> distinction is important because in different patterns verbs may have
>> slightly different meanings.  Those dictionaries do a very careful and
>> rigorous analysis of verb patterns, far beyond the five to eight most
> of
>> us teach.  They both have around fifty.  Of course, if you look at
> Beth
>> Levin's book on English verb patterns, you'll find about 330.
>>
>> Herb
>>
>>
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar on behalf of Craig
>> Hancock
>> Sent: Tue 11/28/2006 3:15 PM
>> To: [log in to unmask]
>> Subject: Re: Prepositional phrase as an indirect object
>>
>> Herb,
>>    I'm right with you with the whole analysis (both posts), but can't
> help
>> feeling that "hit" may not be intentional in some contexts. If it's
>> outfield practice, then "the coach hit the ball to me" would imply
> it's
>> my turn. If I'm in the field, then "to me" is probably not something
>> the batter intended. It may mean something closer to "the batter hit
>> the ball to right field", much more adverbial in nuance.
>>    I do want to vote, though, for the semantic label to remain in both
>> positions if the meaning includes intention. I like the functional
>> analysis. The new information shifts to the end.  "What did he hit to
>> me?"  "He hit me the ball."  "Who did he hit the ball to?" "He hit the
>> ball to me."
>>
>> Craig
>>    >
>>
>>  "hit" as a ditransitive verb licenses an indirect object.  Whether
> that
>>> IO shows up post-verbally or after the DO is a matter, in part, of
>>> whether it's new or old information.  But part of the confusion is
> that
>>> we use IO both functionally and structurally.  Functionally "to me"
> is
>>> the patient, not an adverb.  Structurally whether it's an adverb
> depends
>>> on whether it behaves like an adverb.
>>>
>>> We can say "(intentionally) Jack (intentionally) hit the ball
>>> (intentionally) to me (intentionally)," that is, the manner adverb
> can
>>> occur in any of those four positions.  "To me" doesn't have the same
>>> mobility because it's a complement of "hit" rather than a modifier.
>>> This suggests that it's not adverbial, at least not in the same sense
>>> that "intentionally" is.
>>>
>>> Herb
>>>
>>>
>>> I'd go with an adverbial prepositional phrase.  'To me' certainly
>>> modifies 'hit', does it not?  Is it different than "Jack hit the ball
>>> quickly?"
>>>
>>> Edward Vavra wrote:
>>>>     I was recently asked about "to me" in the sentence "Jack hit the
>>>> ball to me." Is "to me" an adverbial prepositional phrase, or can it
>>>> be considered a prepositional phrase that functions as an indirect
>>>> object, i.e., as a noun? My question is--Do members of this list
> agree
>>>
>>>> on one or the other explanation, or is their disagreement?
>>>> Thanks,
>>>> Ed
>>>>
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>>>
>>> --
>>>
>>> James Sebastian Bear
>>> Montpelier Public School
>>> www.montpelier.k12.nd.us/classroom.html
>>>
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