Johanna Rubba wrote:
>
> I'm disturbed that a number of people seem to be unsubscribing themselves,
> maybe because they are looking for something else (like ideas that work in
> the classroom!) rather than a lot of theoretical discussion and the SSS
> mission. Perhaps we should set up a separate list for SSS members
> and  other ATEGers who would like to 'listen in'.
>
> I'd like to apologize for what I'm sure many have found to be overgenerous
> bombast in my postings. I have a relatively brief reply to Ed and Edith
> below.
>
> Edith writes that 'non-passive participles' = 'stative participles'. This
> is true, but 'non-passive participles' also include _active_ past
> participles, such as in 'We have _eaten_ all the cake.' A stative
> participle appears in sentences like 'The window is _broken_'.
>
> On Mon, 1 Feb 1999, EDWARD VAVRA wrote:
>
> > 5. Would anyone object to my posting many of the messages on this thread on our web site? Many of the messages are long and substantive, and I hate to see them get lost. (I can, as far as I know, do so without express permission, but I'm simply asking if there would be
> >any objections?)
> No objections on my part.
> >
> > 3. I think we need to make a clear distinction between teaching grammar to
> > non-native speakers as opposed to native speakers.
> I agree totally. Grammar for ESL learners can _sometimes_ serve as a model
> for teaching native speakers, and can _sometimes_ give us ideas for
> teaching methods. But the two are quite different enterprises, and
> justifiably are treated as two different fields. One way in which ESL
> grammar and teaching methods can be a model for us is that they are more
> solidly based -- in current linguistic analyses of English as well as
> current learning theory -- than is traditional grammar.
>
> 4. On terminology, I agree with Ed: we need to arrive at a set of terms --
> not just basic terms but also terms for advanced grammar teaching that
> might be done in high schools and colleges. I think this is going to be a
> very thorny one, because of the differences in terminology between most
> modern American linguistic theories and traditional grammar. I would like
> to see that students can not only move from state to state, but also from
> writing and literature courses to linguistics (which is increasingly part
> of the required education for teachers, for instance) with greater ease
> and less confusion. It would also be very helpful for English teachers at
> all levels and linguists to be able to talk to each other, not across each
> other. Trouble is, if we linguists insist on _our_ terminology, we'll be
> viewed as trying to bully everyone else, and we'll also be demanding many,
> many people currently teaching grammar to revise their own usage. This
> might not be feasible for a lot of working professionals.
>
> I see several moderating factors: (a) there aren't really that many terms
> in traditional grammar, compared to linguistics; (b) there already is
> significant overlap between the two; (c) linguistics can, I feel, claim
> _some_ authority in having a more-accurate analysis of some aspects of the
> language than trad. grammar. So, for instance, being able to distinguish
> between 'determiners' and 'articles' (articles are a kind of determiner,
> but there are other determiners, like demonstrative pronouns and
> quantifiers, that don't count as articles).
>
> So one thing that we need to have on our 'questions to answer' list is:
> -What set of terms can we agree on and suggest to the rest of the country?
>
> Is anyone else pondering which questions need to be on our SSS list?
>
> Cheers,
> Johanna
>
> ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
> Johanna Rubba   Assistant Professor, Linguistics              ~
> English Department, California Polytechnic State University   ~
> San Luis Obispo, CA 93407                                     ~
> Tel. (805)-756-2184     Fax: (805)-756-6374                   ~
> E-mail: [log in to unmask]                           ~
> Office hours Winter 1999: Mon/Wed 10:10-11am Thurs 2:10-3pm   ~
> Home page: http://www.calpoly.edu/~jrubba                     ~
> ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
yes--A I think that classroom ideas is what most of us are looking for.
Colleen