Craig,

Although you have claimed to have read some of the work Jim and I have done, the passage I quoted in your post was a dismissal of the fundamental assumptions we make about language for our analysis of writing, and especially developmental writing.

The assumption of formal linguistics, which you dismiss, makes an important distinction about our knowledge of language.  That is the distinction between competence (what is possible in the language) and performance (what language users actually do).  

If you are interested in competence, consideration of the formal properties of the language is important.

Another crucial assumption of formal linguistics is that meaning of an utterance cannot be strictly related to linguistic form.  Let me give an example. 

The underlying meaning (the technical term is implicature)  in the following string "I wish I could stay up later" is completely different because of the context.

Little boy in his bed at 9 PM: "I wish I could stay up later."

An old man in his bed at 9 PM: "I wish I could stay up later."

This is predicted by separation of competence and performance and by the notion that there FORMAL properties of grammar that have nothing to do with meaning and meaning cannot necessarily be related to a choice of grammatical form.

If these assumptions of language are correct, then we as language teachers have to figure out the implications for how we understand what we read, why we make the choices we do when we write, and how our writing develops.

Of course, it may be difficult to do (the work Jim and I have done tries to apply those assumptions to developmental writing), but if those assumptions about language are correct, then we as teachers of writing and grammar should try to make those connections.  

To dismiss what may be correct about the nature of language because it is difficult to apply to our concerns about how language is used will not advance the field at all.

Bob Yates, University of Central Missouri

>>> Craig Hancock <[log in to unmask]> 08/31/11 7:45 AM >>>
Bob,
     I'm perplexed by the reply. I don't recall saying anything about
your work or Jim's work in the post. I don't recall addressing
"developmental writing" directly.
     My apologies if I have somehow insulted you without trying to. I
have no idea where your anger is coming from, but I can sense that it is
real.
    I would like to think that the ATEG list is a place where differing
views can be presented collegially. I would certainly look with interest
at your direct response to John's question.

Craig


On 8/30/2011 1:07 PM, Robert Yates wrote:
> Really?
>
>>>> Craig Hancock<[log in to unmask]>  08/30/11 10:56 AM>>>
>   Much of twentieth century linguistics has done exactly that, dealing with grammar as separate from
> the lexicon and from pragmatics and from cognition. Of course, if you
> study grammar as an isolated formal system, it will be difficult to
> apply that to--for example--writing. You need to devise a whole other
> set of "rules" before that knowledge can be put to use.
>
> Thanks Craig for once again writing in this public forum that the work Jim Kenkel and I have done over the last decade has absolutely nothing to say about developmental writing.
>
> For an example of what Craig dismisses, you might want to read:
>
> Kenkel, J.&  Yates, R. (2009).  The interlanguage grammar of information in L1 and L2 developmental writing.  Written Communication, 26/4, 392-416.
>
> Someday you might actually read that work, Craig, and explain how that paper is seriously flawed and your perspective is more insightful.
>
> Let me make the following challenge so you can stop writing the above: Let's  propose a presentation at a conference and you can tell me to my face why my work has nothing to say about the teaching of writing to developmental writers.
>
> In the meantime, I'm more than willing to tell you why Systemic Functional Linguistics can't explain (at least the papers I know) why developmental writers do what they do.
>
> Of course, it could be we are interested in two different things: you want to describe developmental writing as how it deviates from some standard while Jim and I have been interested in understanding what the underlying principles are that result in such deviations.
>
> In the meantime, your last post is incredibly offensive to the work Jim Kenkel and I have done. and you know this because i have written this before. Please educate yourself and stop it or tell me how our work is useless and you assumptions are to be preferred.
>
> Bob Yates
>
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