I made far too many errors in my submission; e.g., my parents spoke to me in
such a literate manner--not a literature manner; "Yes, students can
understand the basics of writing and bookkeeping with a mastery of either."
should read "Yes, students can understand the basics of writing and
bookkeeping without a mastery of either."
Finally, I described the "mean old teacher" who insisted that everyone
could and would learn but I ignored the pretty young teacher next door
whom everyone loved. Guess whose students passed 7th grade English with
flying colors and whose students struggled through 7th grade English, many
of them unsuccessfully. All students from my elementary school who remained
in Orlando attended the same junior high school unless their parents had
moved to South Orlando--thereby giving the teachers a track record.
I note other typos and grammatical errors: these relate to my level of
fatigue and cannot be blamed on my English teachers. Except for the
2nd and 3rd six-weeks of 5th grade, I had English teachers ranging from
good to superb 4th grade through 11th grades. My 12th grade English teacher
was functionally illiterate: I had to threaten the principal that I would
give the English teacher's one-page test review sheet (on which I marked an
even 100 errors in red) to the local scandal sheet before he would allow me
to drop Senior English.
Scott Catledge
To: [log in to unmask]
Subject: ATEG Digest - 12 Apr 2008 to 13 Apr 2008 (#2008-91)
Date: Sun, 13 Apr 2008 00:40:33 -0700
From: Robert Troyer <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Re: relative advantages of marking sentences versus diagramming
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Rob,
I too used [I am retired, now] diagramming (RK) to get the students to view
language other than pure linear. Any non-morphological grammatical error
that a student made resulted in an assignment to try to diagram the sentence
as written, to correct the error, and diagram the corrected sentence. The
students put their errors and corrections on the board and diagrammed the
sentence afterwards. My most fruitful classes were college-prep at a top
prep school for students planning on attending a religious university.
More than one took the time to come by my office to tell me that they had
never understood the memory verses that they had had to memorize and recite
through the years or the Bible chapters that they had had to study until
they were required to diagram sentences, thereby forcing themselves to
understand the relations of the words and ideas in each sentence or verse.
Their composition grades increased in line with their mastery of grammar.
Part of the problem is that persons are too glib and actually believe that
getting an attack on grammar published actually proves anything; e.g.,
the listing of unsupported allegations as though they were truth is no more
valid than a list of how the world was created from a strictly literal
standpoint. Both depend upon faith more than reason; however, the
fundamentalist is aware of the situation; his 'literate' counterparts are
not.
Take the following allegations from Grammar today:
The question is whether diagramming helps, whether students understand the
> functions of the various parts of sentences better with diagrams. Does it
> help to put *flag *and *Camping *on a line where the system says subjects
> belong? Students could analyze the sentences and come to the same
conclusion > without a diagram.
They could possibly analyze a sentence and come to the same conclusions
without a diagram. They may also analyzae a budget and see how it is spent
without any knowledge of bookkeeping. I could add other examples of how
techniques such as diagramming and double entry bookkeeping have raise not
just the competence of the top students but have given all a useful tool
to help in life. Only at the lowest level is correct English and good
mathematical practices of limited value
Many Students have used correct English for years but never understood the
significance of the variations--nor are they likely to learn its full use on
their own. Some will lean a title for what they do and are satisfied as the
bourgeois gentilhomme was when he learned that he spoke prose
What a diagram does illustrate is that *Camping*,
> normally a verb, is used as a subject. But students can also understand
that
> without a diagram. They've used those kinds of nominatives for years. For
> visual learners, the diagram may help. Diagrams appear neat and attractive
> for some, frown formidably for others.
The question is whether diagramming helps, whether students understand the
> functions of the various parts of sentences better with diagrams. Does it
> help to put *flag *and *Camping *on a line where the system says subjects
> belong? Students could analyze the sentences and come to the same
conclusion
> without a diagram. What a diagram does illustrate is that *Camping*,
> normally a verb, is used as a subject. But students can also understand
that
> without a diagram. They've used those kinds of nominatives for years. For
> visual learners, the diagram may help. Diagrams appear neat and attractive
> for some, frown formidably for others.
Yes, students can understand the basics of writing and bookkeeping with a
mastery of either. The teacher who is satisfied with that level of
competence should be paid appropriately. I was a student in a sixth-grade
elementary school who had one much older teacher and one much younger one.
The older one drummed both the content and usage of English, mathematics,
history, and, too a lesser degree science into out heads. She did not allow
any mistake to go unrecognized and uncorrected with a full explanation by
the student. I enjoyed the classes; many other intelligent students thought
that she was teaching us too much. I challenged one such student to tell me
what useless knowledge he had acquired (he could noy say the grammar and
math had not affected him because he was writinh effectively and could keep
a checkbook.
I had parents who spoke to me in such a literature manner that I arrived at
Winter Park HS (academically tops in the state) in 10th grade English
without knowing the rules of punctuation: I had always heard or imagined how
my mother or father would speak and punctuated where thay would have paused,
Punction helped me systemize my knowledge and apply it to word patterns that
I hsad never heard
"2) Diagrams in textbooks use someone else's sentences. Few difficult ones.
None that cannot be parsed neatly. (3)
The difficult ones arise after the knowledge of the basic rules.
English textbooks do have difficult sentences:
"I was baked a cake" In diagramming students realize that the cake is the
subject of was baked and that I is a retained indirect object in the
nominative position. "The sooner, the better", The more, the merrier and
other fun examples
If the textbook does not have difficult sentences or ones that parsed
easily, It is the teacher's role to furnish the examples in all classes.
My World Geography covered the entire world by focusing on their primary
products. I covered primary products during my historico-geographical
approach in which I demonstrated how geography provided products whose
use could alter or forever change history on a local and even regional
level: one quick item was the use of horses. The Ostrogoths armored calvary
used spears to 'whup' everyone until the Hun arrives with lighter armor,
hfaster, smaller horses
> Diagrams are not predictive; that is, they don't help students produce
> sentences of their own.
Scott,
I think that one of the most important methods that we have as teachers is
shocking students into viewing a familiar object of study from a very
different perspective. I'll never forget a geography prof's slide show
presentation of different maps of the world. The same principle applies to
teaching about language; students are used to encountering language in
linear form as sounds in the air or words on a page. I like to use tree
diagrams before labeling in order to shock the students into viewing
language from a radically different perspective--not as a linear sequence,
but as a system of hierarchically related groups of meaningful units
that are configured for rhetorical effect. The need for such instruction
usually arises naturally from the occasionally unsuccessful sentences that
my students write in their papers. I use their sentences as examples, and
then with diagrams, teach them how to restructure the sentence to more
effectively emphasize or de-emphasize certain constituents in order to best
convey the intended meaning within the context of the paragraph. Once they
get the idea (understand the hierarchical structure of meaningful groups of
words and how to manipulate them) labeling with brackets, underlining, etc.
is definitely faster and easier. I think this should be true for students of
almost any age who are beginning to study language in this way.
Rob
On Fri, Apr 11, 2008 at 7:09 PM, rbetting <[log in to unmask]> wrote:
> Herb,
> I have good memories of diagramming too, and I taught it for years in high
> schools. The right brain functioning. I never taught KISS but have read
some
> of the literature. It seems to focus a bit much on labels (which is what
> members have been discussing) but it alse requires lots of use, something
> that diagrammers sometimes don't. I would still use diagrams, generative
> grammar trees and sentence stratification (test sentences and so on too)
as
> tools to show students ways to see and describe sentences and their
> component parts. The list of negatives is meant to make a point, I guess,
> that this activity can become an end in itself easily. Florey illustrates
> with some elegant diagrams.
> Yup, we're back to the main question: what can and should be used. When
> these activities can be applied to showing students how to use structures
to
> make particular kinds of sense in effective communication, they can be
> useful, ought to be used. Seems to me. Students need to be shown how. Use
> doesn't come automatically. Dick Betting
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> *From:* STAHLKE, HERBERT F <[log in to unmask]>
> *To:* [log in to unmask]
> *Sent:* Friday, April 11, 2008 6:06 PM
> *Subject:* Re: relative advantages of marking sentences versus diagramming
>
> Dick,
>
>
>
> While I have good memories of diagramming, it's because I was one of those
> students who was good at it. It just made sense and came to me easily. I
> can't argue with litany of criticisms you review. I have, by the way,
> similar enjoyment of and problems with phrase structure trees, which I
find
> generally more useful than RK diagrams, if not necessarily any clearer,
and
> flawed in other ways although they do structure very well.
>
>
>
> But I'm bothered by the criticism that either kind of diagramming is
> simply an exercise in geometry. I suspect it was that when I learned it
and
> that it's all too often taught in that way: the diagram as an end in
> itself. But any sort of grammar, even without formal diagrams, can be
> taught as an end in itself, and that's the problem many of us have with
> traditional school grammar, that when it's not simply about formal
> correctness it is an end in itself. We classify words into parts of
speech
> to classify words into parts of speech. We underline subjects once and
> predicates twice with the same circular goal. The problem with teaching
> grammar is most frequently that we don't know why we teach what we teach,
> and so we can't provide a curricular justification that will pass muster
> with any competent curriculum committee. We never explain the role of
> subject and predicate in expressing meaning effectively and in structuring
> discourse.
>
>
>
> Asking why we teach what we teach will lead to answers that actually do
> deal with communication, spoken and written. Doing so will make us ask
what
> developing writers need to know about their grammatical options so that
they
> choose them with as much knowledge and care that we would like them to
make
> other choices.
>
>
>
> I disagree strongly with Florey's claim that you cite, "But there are
> other places to acquire it than in sixth-grade grammar classes. . . . The
> fact is that a lot of people don't need diagramming or anything else: they
> pick up grammar and syntax effortlessly through their reading . . . and
they
> do things correctly without knowing why." This is the standard confusion
> of grammar as what children learn in their first five years as they
acquire
> most of the first language and grammar as the anatomy and physiology of
> language that defines the rhetorical choices we can make as we speak or
> write. There is no question that children master the former sort of
> grammar. The problem is that they don't typically learn at the same time
> how to use that knowledge to good rhetorical effect without overt
teaching.
> It's rather like saying that because children learn to run and swing their
> arms without overt teaching that they don't have to taught to play tennis,
> an activity in which directed and effective use of these natural motions
is
> critical.
>
>
>
> So we're back to the questions that continue to both plague and drive
> groups like ATEG: what should we teach and how should we teach it?
>
>
>
> Herb
>
> *From:* Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar [mailto:
> [log in to unmask]] *On Behalf Of *rbetting
> *Sent:* 2008-04-11 09:06
> *To:* [log in to unmask]
> *Subject:* Re: relative advantages of marking sentences versus diagramming
>
>
>
> You might consider my analysis of diagramming from Grammar Today:
>
>.
*Several problems with diagramming*:
> (1) On some level the lines and sticks appear to make clear the
relationship
> of the parts, but diagrams do almost nothing to explain meaning, while
they
> oversimplify language structures. (2) Diagrams in textbooks use someone
> else's sentences. Few difficult ones. None that cannot be parsed neatly.
(3)
> Diagrams are not predictive; that is, they don't help students produce
> sentences of their own. (4) Diagrams fail to distinguish between form and
> function; that is, any word or phrase in subject position must be a
> nominative. Many different kinds of structures can be nominatives:
gerunds,
> infinitives, prepositional phrases, noun clauses. (5) Badly worded and
> ungrammatical sentences can be diagrammed as neatly as well-worded
sentences
> can. (6) Diagramming as an exercise can become an end in itself. (7)
> Sentences are isolated from context, never the case in actual use. (8)
> Diagrams fail to make a connection between knowing how to do them and
being
> able to speak and write more effectively. Diagrams don't automatically
help
> students improve their style. They may even prevent students from
exploring
> their own linguistic creativity.
>
> In *Teacher Man *Frank McCourt explains his inability to teach
> diagramming, the "structure and Euclidian beauty of it." He admits, "I
tried
> but failed. I made lines vertical, horizontal, slanting, and then I stood,
> adrift at the blackboard, till a Chinese student volunteered to take over
> and teach the teacher what the teacher should have known."
>
> In her recent book *Sister Bernadette's Barking Dog *Kitty Burns Florey
> concludes that diagramming, while a joyful activity for some students,
will
> not improve their writing or speaking. "Few people would deny that
students
> need to master grammar in order to write decently," Florey writes. "But
> there are other places to acquire it than in sixth-grade grammar classes.
.
> . . The fact is that a lot of people don't need diagramming or anything
> else: they pick up grammar and syntax effortlessly through their reading .
.
> . and they do things correctly without knowing why."
>
>
>
> Grammar Today 84 *Chapter 6. The Beginnings of Traditional Grammar Dick
> Betting *
>
> ----- Original Message -----
>
> *From:* Scott Woods <[log in to unmask]>
>
> *To:* [log in to unmask]
>
> *Sent:* Friday, April 11, 2008 12:23 AM
>
> *Subject:* relative advantages of marking sentences versus diagramming
>
>
>
> Dear Listmates,
>
> I would appreciate some comment on the relative advantages of marking
> sentences (following a KISS Grammar method or similar) versus diagramming
> sentences in the Reed-Kellogg style (or variant) for the purposes of
> teaching and learning how to understand sentence structure. The students
> are diligent upper elementary and middle school students performing at or
> above grade level; the teachers believe that grammar instruction is
> important; the administration lets the teachers do what they want,
provided
> their students continue to outperform other schools. Should students
learn
> diagramming? What advantages does it bring them that marking will not?
When
> should they learn diagramming? Does anyone have any experience with using
> either both methods or diagramming with this age group? Is there any
> relevant research?
>
> Thanks,
>
> Scott Woods
>
> __________________________________________________
> Do You Yahoo!?
> Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around
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> the list's web interface at:
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>
> Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/
>
> To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web interface
> at: http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html and select "Join or
> leave the list"
>
> Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/
> To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web interface
> at: http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html and select "Join or
> leave the list"
>
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>
> To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web
> interface at: http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html and select
> "Join or leave the list"
>
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>
To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web interface
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and select "Join or leave the list"
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<div>Scott, </div>
<div> </div>
<div>I think that one of the most important methods that we have as teacher=
s is shocking students into viewing a familiar object of study from a very =
different perspective. I'll never forget a geography prof's slide s=
how presentation of different maps of the world. The same principle ap=
plies to teaching about language; students are used to encountering languag=
e in linear form as sounds in the air or words on a page. I like to use tre=
e diagrams before labeling in order to shock the students into viewing lang=
uage from a radically different perspective--not as a linear sequence, but =
as a system of hierarchically related groups of meaningful units that =
are configured for rhetorical effect. The need for such instructi=
on usually arises naturally from the occasionally unsuccessful sentences th=
at my students write in their papers. I use their sentences as examples, an=
d then with diagrams, teach them how to restructure the sentence to mo=
re effectively emphasize or de-emphasize certain constituents in =
order to best convey the intended meaning within the context of the paragra=
ph. Once they get the idea (understand the hierarchical structure of meanin=
gful groups of words and how to manipulate them) labeling with brackets, un=
derlining, etc. is definitely faster and easier. I think this should b=
e true for students of almost any age who are beginning to study language i=
n this way.</div>
<div> </div>
<div>Rob </div>
<div> </div>
<div><br><br> </div>
<div class=3D"gmail_quote">On Fri, Apr 11, 2008 at 7:09 PM, rbetting <<a=
href=3D"mailto:[log in to unmask]">[log in to unmask]</a>> wrote:<b=
r>
<blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"PADDING-LEFT: 1ex; MARGIN: 0px 0=
px 0px 0.8ex; BORDER-LEFT: #ccc 1px solid">
<div lang=3D"EN-US" bgcolor=3D"white" vlink=3D"purple" link=3D"blue">
<div><font face=3D"Arial" size=3D"2">Herb, </font></div>
<div><font face=3D"Arial" size=3D"2">I have good memories of diagramming to=
o, and I taught it for years in high schools. The right brain functioning.&=
nbsp;I never taught KISS but have read some of the literature. It seems to =
focus a bit much on labels (which is what members have been discussing=
) but it alse requires lots of use, something that diagrammers sometim=
es don't. I would still use diagrams, generative grammar trees and sent=
ence stratification (test sentences and so on too) as tools to show student=
s ways to see and describe sentences and their component parts. The list of=
negatives is meant to make a point, I guess, that this activity can become=
an end in itself easily. Florey illustrates with some elegant diagrams. </=
font></div>
<div><font face=3D"Arial" size=3D"2">Yup, we're back to the main questi=
on: what can and should be used. When these activities can be applied to sh=
owing students how to use structures to make particular kinds of sense in e=
ffective communication, they can be useful, ought to be used. Seems to me. =
Students need to be shown how. Use doesn't come automatically. Dick Bet=
ting </font></div>
<blockquote dir=3D"ltr" style=3D"PADDING-RIGHT: 0px; PADDING-LEFT: 5px; MAR=
GIN-LEFT: 5px; BORDER-LEFT: #000000 2px solid; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px">
<div class=3D"Ih2E3d">
<div style=3D"FONT: 10pt arial">----- Original Message ----- </div>
<div style=3D"BACKGROUND: #e4e4e4; FONT: 10pt arial"><b>From:</b> <a title=
=3D"[log in to unmask]" href=3D"mailto:[log in to unmask]" target=3D"_blank">ST=
AHLKE, HERBERT F</a> </div>
<div style=3D"FONT: 10pt arial"><b>To:</b> <a title=3D"[log in to unmask]
.EDU" href=3D"mailto:[log in to unmask]" target=3D"_blank">ATEG@LISTS=
ERV.MUOHIO.EDU</a> </div></div>
<div>
<div></div>
<div class=3D"Wj3C7c">
<div style=3D"FONT: 10pt arial"><b>Sent:</b> Friday, April 11, 2008 6:06 PM=
</div>
<div style=3D"FONT: 10pt arial"><b>Subject:</b> Re: relative advantages of =
marking sentences versus diagramming</div>
<div><font face=3D"Arial" size=3D"2"></font><font face=3D"Arial" size=3D"2"=
></font><br></div>
<div>
<p><span style=3D"FONT-SIZE: 11pt; COLOR: #1f497d">Dick,</span></p>
<p><span style=3D"FONT-SIZE: 11pt; COLOR: #1f497d"> </span></p>
<p><span style=3D"FONT-SIZE: 11pt; COLOR: #1f497d">While I have good memori=
es of diagramming, it's because I was one of those students who was good at=
it. It just made sense and came to me easily. I can't argue wi=
th litany of criticisms you review. I have, by the way, similar enjoy=
ment of and problems with phrase structure trees, which I find generally mo=
re useful than RK diagrams, if not necessarily any clearer, and flawed in o=
ther ways although they do structure very well.</span></p>
<p><span style=3D"FONT-SIZE: 11pt; COLOR: #1f497d"> </span></p>
<p><span style=3D"FONT-SIZE: 11pt; COLOR: #1f497d">But I'm bothered by the =
criticism that either kind of diagramming is simply an exercise in geometry=
. I suspect it was that when I learned it and that it's all too often=
taught in that way: the diagram as an end in itself. But any s=
ort of grammar, even without formal diagrams, can be taught as an end in it=
self, and that's the problem many of us have with traditional school gramma=
r, that when it's not simply about formal correctness it is an end in itsel=
f. We classify words into parts of speech to classify words into part=
s of speech. We underline subjects once and predicates twice with the=
same circular goal. The problem with teaching grammar is most freque=
ntly that we don't know why we teach what we teach, and so we can't provide=
a curricular justification that will pass muster with any competent curric=
ulum committee. We never explain the role of subject and predicate in=
expressing meaning effectively and in structuring discourse.</span></p>
<p><span style=3D"FONT-SIZE: 11pt; COLOR: #1f497d"> </span></p>
<p><span style=3D"FONT-SIZE: 11pt; COLOR: #1f497d">Asking why we teach what=
we teach will lead to answers that actually do deal with communication, sp=
oken and written. Doing so will make us ask what developing writers n=
eed to know about their grammatical options so that they choose them with a=
s much knowledge and care that we would like them to make other choices.&nb=
sp; </span></p>
<p><span style=3D"FONT-SIZE: 11pt; COLOR: #1f497d"> </span></p>
<p><span style=3D"FONT-SIZE: 11pt; COLOR: #1f497d">I disagree strongly with=
Florey's claim that you cite, "</span><span><span style=3D"FONT-SIZE: 11pt=
">But there are other places to acquire it than in sixth-grade grammar clas=
ses. . . . The fact is that a lot of people don't need diagramming or anyth=
ing else: they pick up grammar and syntax effortlessly through their readin=
g . . . and they do things correctly without knowing why." </span></s=
pan><span style=3D"FONT-SIZE: 11pt; COLOR: #1f497d">This is the standard co=
nfusion of grammar as what children learn in their first five years as they=
acquire most of the first language and grammar as the anatomy and physiolo=
gy of language that defines the rhetorical choices we can make as we speak =
or write. There is no question that children master the former sort o=
f grammar. The problem is that they don't typically learn at the same=
time how to use that knowledge to good rhetorical effect without overt tea=
ching. It's rather like saying that because children learn to run and=
swing their arms without overt teaching that they don't have to taught to =
play tennis, an activity in which directed and effective use of these natur=
al motions is critical.</span></p>
<p><span style=3D"FONT-SIZE: 11pt; COLOR: #1f497d"> </span></p>
<p><span style=3D"FONT-SIZE: 11pt; COLOR: #1f497d">So we're back to the que=
stions that continue to both plague and drive groups like ATEG: what =
should we teach and how should we teach it?</span></p>
<p><span style=3D"FONT-SIZE: 11pt; COLOR: #1f497d"> </span></p>
<p><span style=3D"FONT-SIZE: 11pt; COLOR: #1f497d">Herb</span></p>
<div>
<div style=3D"BORDER-RIGHT: medium none; PADDING-RIGHT: 0in; BORDER-TOP: #b=
5c4df 1pt solid; PADDING-LEFT: 0in; PADDING-BOTTOM: 0in; BORDER-LEFT: mediu=
m none; PADDING-TOP: 3pt; BORDER-BOTTOM: medium none">
<p><b><span style=3D"FONT-SIZE: 10pt">From:</span></b><span style=3D"FONT-S=
IZE: 10pt"> Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar [mailto:<a href=3D=
"mailto:[log in to unmask]" target=3D"_blank">[log in to unmask]
U</a>] <b>On Behalf Of </b>rbetting<br>
<b>Sent:</b> 2008-04-11 09:06<br><b>To:</b> <a href=3D"mailto:ATEG@LISTSERV=
.MUOHIO.EDU" target=3D"_blank">[log in to unmask]</a><br><b>Subject:<=
/b> Re: relative advantages of marking sentences versus diagramming</span><=
/p>
</div></div>
<p> </p>
<div>
<p><span style=3D"FONT-SIZE: 10pt">You might consider my analysis of diagra=
mming from Grammar Today:</span></p></div>
<div>
<p style=3D"MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt"><span><span style=3D"FONT-SIZE: 10pt">The =
question is whether diagramming helps, whether students understand the func=
tions of the various parts of sentences better with diagrams. Does it help =
to put <b><i>flag </i></b>and <b><i>Camping </i></b>on a line where the sys=
tem says subjects belong? Students could analyze the sentences and come to =
the same conclusion without a diagram. What a diagram does illustrate is th=
at <b><i>Camping</i></b>, normally a verb, is used as a subject. But studen=
ts can also understand that without a diagram. They've used those kinds of =
nominatives for years. For visual learners, the diagram may help. Diagrams =
appear neat and attractive for some, frown formidably for others. </span></=
span><span><b><span style=3D"FONT-SIZE: 11pt">Several problems with diagram=
ming</span></b></span><span><span style=3D"FONT-SIZE: 11pt">: (1) On some l=
evel the lines and sticks appear to make clear the relationship of the part=
s, but diagrams do almost nothing to explain meaning, while they oversimpli=
fy language structures. (2) Diagrams in textbooks use someone else's senten=
ces. Few difficult ones. None that cannot be parsed neatly. (3) Diagrams ar=
e not predictive; that is, they don't help students produce sentences of th=
eir own. (4) Diagrams fail to distinguish between form and function; that i=
s, any word or phrase in subject position must be a nominative. Many differ=
ent kinds of structures can be nominatives: gerunds, infinitives, prepositi=
onal phrases, noun clauses. (5) Badly worded and ungrammatical sentences ca=
n be diagrammed as neatly as well-worded sentences can. (6) Diagramming as =
an exercise can become an end in itself. (7) Sentences are isolated from co=
ntext, never the case in actual use. (8) Diagrams fail to make a connection=
between knowing how to do them and being able to speak and write more effe=
ctively. Diagrams don't automatically help students improve their style. Th=
ey may even prevent students from exploring their own linguistic creativity=
. </span></span><span style=3D"FONT-SIZE: 11pt"></span></p>
<p style=3D"MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt; TEXT-INDENT: 0.5in"><span><span style=3D"F=
ONT-SIZE: 10.5pt">In <b><i>Teacher Man </i></b>Frank McCourt explains his i=
nability to teach diagramming, the "structure and Euclidian beauty of it." =
He admits, "I tried but failed. I made lines vertical, horizontal, slanting=
, and then I stood, adrift at the blackboard, till a Chinese student volunt=
eered to take over and teach the teacher what the teacher should have known=
."</span></span><span style=3D"FONT-SIZE: 10.5pt"></span></p>
<p><span><span style=3D"FONT-SIZE: 11pt">In her recent book <b><i>Sister Be=
rnadette's Barking Dog </i></b>Kitty Burns Florey concludes that diagrammin=
g, while a joyful activity for some students, will not improve their writin=
g or speaking. "Few people would deny that students need to master grammar =
in order to write decently," Florey writes. "But there are other places to =
acquire it than in sixth-grade grammar classes. . . . The fact is that a lo=
t of people don't need diagramming or anything else: they pick up grammar a=
nd syntax effortlessly through their reading . . . and they do things corre=
ctly without knowing why."</span></span></p>
<p style=3D"MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt; TEXT-INDENT: 0.5in"><span style=3D"FONT-SI=
ZE: 11pt; COLOR: black"> </span></p>
<p style=3D"MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt"><span style=3D"FONT-SIZE: 11pt">Grammar To=
day </span><span style=3D"FONT-SIZE: 11.5pt">84 </span><i><span style=3D"FO=
NT-SIZE: 11pt">Chapter 6. The Beginnings of Traditional Grammar =
Dick Betting </span></i><span style=3D"FONT-SIZE: =
11pt"></span></p>
</div>
<blockquote style=3D"BORDER-RIGHT: medium none; PADDING-RIGHT: 0in; BORDER-=
TOP: medium none; PADDING-LEFT: 4pt; PADDING-BOTTOM: 0in; MARGIN: 5pt 0in 5=
pt 3.75pt; BORDER-LEFT: black 1.5pt solid; PADDING-TOP: 0in; BORDER-BOTTOM:=
medium none">
<div>
<p><span style=3D"FONT-SIZE: 10pt">----- Original Message ----- </span></p>=
</div>
<div>
<p style=3D"BACKGROUND: #e4e4e4"><b><span style=3D"FONT-SIZE: 10pt">From:</=
span></b><span style=3D"FONT-SIZE: 10pt"> <a title=3D"[log in to unmask]
" href=3D"mailto:[log in to unmask]" target=3D"_blank">Scott Woods</a> <=
/span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p><b><span style=3D"FONT-SIZE: 10pt">To:</span></b><span style=3D"FONT-SIZ=
E: 10pt"> <a title=3D"[log in to unmask]" href=3D"mailto:ATEG@LISTSER=
V.MUOHIO.EDU" target=3D"_blank">[log in to unmask]</a> </span></p></d=
iv>
<div>
<p><b><span style=3D"FONT-SIZE: 10pt">Sent:</span></b><span style=3D"FONT-S=
IZE: 10pt"> Friday, April 11, 2008 12:23 AM</span></p></div>
<div>
<p><b><span style=3D"FONT-SIZE: 10pt">Subject:</span></b><span style=3D"FON=
T-SIZE: 10pt"> relative advantages of marking sentences versus diagramming<=
/span></p></div>
<div>
<p> </p></div>
<div>
<p>Dear Listmates,</p></div>
<div>
<p>I would appreciate some comment on the relative advantages of marking se=
ntences (following a KISS Grammar method or similar) versus diagramming sen=
tences in the Reed-Kellogg style (or variant) for the purposes of teaching =
and learning how to understand sentence structure. The students are d=
iligent upper elementary and middle school students performing at or above =
grade level; the teachers believe that grammar instruction is important; th=
e administration lets the teachers do what they want, provided their studen=
ts continue to outperform other schools. Should students learn diagra=
mming? What advantages does it bring them that marking will not? When =
should they learn diagramming? Does anyone have any experience w=
ith using either both methods or diagramming with this age group? Is =
there any relevant research? </p>
</div>
<div>
<p>Thanks, </p></div>
<div>
<p>Scott Woods</p></div>
<p>__________________________________________________<br>Do You Yahoo!?<br>=
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nk">http://ateg.org/</a></p></blockquote>
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------=_Part_1434_33360665.1208072433786--
------------------------------
Date: Sun, 13 Apr 2008 07:17:40 -0700
From: Karl Hagen <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Re: punctuation anyone?
To add punctuation marks would eliminate the garden-path effect, in several
places, where there is an intentional ambiguity as to what word a modifier
attaches to.
In particular, note "with dew making the colors..." and "they are the new
pink..."
In each case, the absence of a comma encourages us to misread the syntax as
we
initially read the poem. It is the dew making the colors? is "the new pink
of
the cinnamon tree" the complement of "are"? In both cases, the answer is
no,
but because we have to think about it, to consider alternate parsings of the
sentence, alternate juxtapositions of images. Punctuation would give us the
answer right away and spoil the joy of discovering it for ourselves.
One other thing I would note is that whitespace is a form of punctuation
too.
Historically, words were not always separated. (The practice was introduced
in
the 7th-8th centuries by Irish monks.)
So strictly speaking, this is not a punctuation-free poem. The linebreaks in
particular help a lot. In a number of places, they function as equivalents
to
a visible mark.
For a real experience of punctuationless reading, try reformatting the text
as
an ancient Roman reader might have experienced it: a solid block of text,
broken only when the end of the line forced it, and without distinction of
capital and lower case letters:
oncemoreitisaprilwiththefirstlightsiftingthroughthe
youngleavesheavywithdewmakingthecolorsrememberwho
theyarethenewpinkofthecinnamontreethegildedlichens
ofthebambootheshadowedbronzeofthekamaniandtheblueday
openingasthesunlightdescendsthroughitalllikethereturn
ofaspirittouchingwithouttouchandunabletobelieveitis
hereandhereagainandawakereachingoutinsilenceintothe
coolbreathofthegardenjustrisenfromdarknessanddaysof
rainitisonlyamomentthebirdsflythroughitcallingtoeach
otherandaregonewiththeirfewnotesandtheflashoftheirflight
thathadvanishedbeforeweeverknewitwewatchwithouttouching
anyofitandwecantellourselvesonlythatthisisaprilthisisthe
morningthisneverhappenedbeforeandwebothrememberit
BTW, I think a poem like this would make an excellent exercise for an
advanced
class. It's a great illustration of how punctuation and syntax interact.
Karl
Edgar Schuster wrote:
> Folks,
> A friend just sent me the following poem by W. S. Merwin:
>
> *Before A Departure in Spring*
> Once more it is April with the first light sifting
> through the young leaves heavy with dew making the colors
> remember who they are the new pink of the cinnamon tree
> the gilded lichens of the bamboo the shadowed bronze
> of the kamani and the blue day opening
> as the sunlight descends through it all like the return
> of a spirit touching without touch and unable
> to believe it is here and here again and awake
> reaching out in silence into the cool breath
> of the garden just risen from darkness and days of rain
> it is only a moment the birds fly through it calling
> to each other and are gone with their few notes and the flash
> of their flight that had vanished before we ever knew it
> we watch without touching any of it and we
> can tell ourselves only that this is April this is the morning
> this never happened before and we both remember it
>
> I love it myself, and had no trouble reading it in spite of its total
> absence of punctuation. Thought I'd share it with fellow grammarians
> and punctuation lovers.
> Just one question: Would the addition of punctuation improve it or
> spoil it?
>
> Ed Schuster
>
>
> **************
> It's Tax Time! Get tips, forms and advice on AOL Money & Finance.
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------------------------------
Date: Sun, 13 Apr 2008 15:51:56 -0400
From: "Veit, Richard" <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: A punctuation challenge
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On the topic of the usefulness of punctuation, students might enjoy the
challenge of punctuating the following to make it a coherent sentence,
using only commas, quotation marks, and a semicolon.=20
=20
James while John had had had had had had had had had had had a better
effect on the teacher.
=20
Check here
<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/James_while_John_had_had_had_had_had_had_h
ad_had_had_had_had_a_better_effect_on_the_teacher> for a solution.
(Sure to be denounced by Brad Johnston.)
=20
Conversely there's the ever-popular "Buffalo buffalo Buffalo buffalo
buffalo buffalo Buffalo buffalo
<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Buffalo_buffalo_Buffalo_buffalo_buffalo_bu
ffalo_Buffalo_buffalo> ," which does just fine as a sentence without any
internal punctuation.
=20
Dick
________________________________
Richard Veit
Department of English
University of North Carolina Wilmington
=20
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<div class=3DSection1>
<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D2 face=3DArial><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;
font-family:Arial'>On the topic of the usefulness of punctuation, =
students
might enjoy the challenge of punctuating the following to make it a =
coherent
sentence, using only commas, quotation marks, and a semicolon. =
<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D2 face=3DArial><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;
font-family:Arial'><o:p> </o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=3DMsoNormal style=3D'text-indent:.5in'><font size=3D2 =
face=3DArial><span
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Arial'>James while John had had =
had had had
had had had had had had a better effect on the =
teacher.<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=3DMsoNormal style=3D'text-indent:.5in'><font size=3D2 =
face=3DArial><span
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Arial'><o:p> </o:p></span></fo=
nt></p>
<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D2 face=3DArial><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;
font-family:Arial'><a
href=3D"http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/James_while_John_had_had_had_had_had=
_had_had_had_had_had_had_a_better_effect_on_the_teacher">Check
here</a> for a solution. (Sure to be denounced by Brad =
Johnston.)<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D2 face=3DArial><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;
font-family:Arial'><o:p> </o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D2 face=3DArial><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;
font-family:Arial'>Conversely there’s the ever-popular “<a
href=3D"http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Buffalo_buffalo_Buffalo_buffalo_buff=
alo_buffalo_Buffalo_buffalo"
title=3D"Buffalo buffalo Buffalo buffalo buffalo buffalo Buffalo =
buffalo">Buffalo
buffalo Buffalo buffalo buffalo buffalo Buffalo =
buffalo</a></span></font><font
size=3D2 face=3DArial><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Arial'>,”
which does just fine as a sentence without any internal =
punctuation.<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D2 face=3DArial><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;
font-family:Arial'><o:p> </o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D2 face=3DArial><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;
font-family:Arial'>Dick</span></font><font size=3D2 face=3DArial><span
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Arial'><o:p></o:p></span></font></p=
>
<p class=3DMsoNormal =
style=3D'mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><font
size=3D2 color=3Dteal face=3DArial><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Arial;
color:teal'>________________________________</span></font><o:p></o:p></p>=
<p class=3DMsoNormal =
style=3D'mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><font
size=3D2 color=3Dteal face=3DArial><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Arial;
color:teal'>Richard Veit<br>
Department of English<br>
</span></font><font size=3D2 face=3DArial><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:
Arial'><ns0:PlaceType w:insAuthor=3D"UNCW" =
w:insDate=3D"2008-04-13T15:29:00Z"
w:endInsAuthor=3D"UNCW" =
w:endInsDate=3D"2008-04-13T15:29:00Z"><st1:PlaceType
w:st=3D"on"><font color=3Dteal><span =
style=3D'color:teal'>University</span></font></st1:PlaceType></ns0:PlaceT=
ype><font
color=3Dteal><span style=3D'color:teal'> of </span></font><ns0:PlaceName
w:insAuthor=3D"UNCW" w:insDate=3D"2008-04-13T15:29:00Z" =
w:endInsAuthor=3D"UNCW"
w:endInsDate=3D"2008-04-13T15:29:00Z"><st1:PlaceName w:st=3D"on"><font =
color=3Dteal><span
style=3D'color:teal'>North =
Carolina</span></font></st1:PlaceName></ns0:PlaceName><font
color=3Dteal><span style=3D'color:teal'> </span></font><ns0:City =
w:insAuthor=3D"UNCW"
w:insDate=3D"2008-04-13T15:29:00Z" w:endInsAuthor=3D"UNCW"
w:endInsDate=3D"2008-04-13T15:29:00Z"><ns0:place w:insAuthor=3D"UNCW"
w:insDate=3D"2008-04-13T15:29:00Z" w:endInsAuthor=3D"UNCW"
w:endInsDate=3D"2008-04-13T15:29:00Z"><st1:City w:st=3D"on"><st1:place =
w:st=3D"on"><font
color=3Dteal><span =
style=3D'color:teal'>Wilmington</span></font></st1:place></st1:City></ns0=
:place></ns0:City></span></font><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D3 face=3D"Times New Roman"><span =
style=3D'font-size:
12.0pt'><o:p> </o:p></span></font></p>
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------------------------------
Date: Sun, 13 Apr 2008 16:45:03 -0700
From: Brad Johnston <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Re: A punctuation challenge
--0-413285675-1208130303=:54547
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"Veit, Richard" <[log in to unmask]> wrote:
On the topic of the usefulness of punctuation, students might enjoy the
challenge of punctuating the following to make it a coherent sentence, using
only commas, quotation marks, and a semicolon.
James while John had had had had had had had had had had had a better
effect on the teacher.
Check here for a solution. (Sure to be denounced by Brad Johnston.)
Dick
Richard Veit
Department of English
University of North Carolina Wilmington
~~~~~~~~~~~~
This item from my archives laments three in a row and you sidle up with
eleven!
Wow!
I am transfixed by your audacity, Dick.
This is from The Monk Downstairs, by Tim Farrington, c.2002.
"But the dreams they had had had come to nothing."
Three 'had's in a row! Try that sometime.
The Jeff Feagles Syndrome.
(Jeff, a punter for the N.Y. Giants, is the only player in the NFL with
three consonants together in his name.)
I will take my hat off to anyone who can come up with a legitimate
three-'had's-in-a-row, should someone care to rise to my challenge.
.brad.sun.13apr08.
__________________________________________________
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<DIV><B><I>"Veit, Richard" <[log in to unmask]></I></B> wrote:</DIV>
<DIV> </DIV> <DIV><FONT face=Arial><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt;
FONT-FAMILY: Arial">On the topic of the usefulness of punctuation, students
might enjoy the challenge of punctuating the following to make it a coherent
sentence, using only commas, quotation marks, and a
semicolon.</SPAN></FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT face=Arial><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: Arial"></SPAN></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY:
Arial">James while John had had had had had had had had had had had a better
effect on the teacher.</SPAN></FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT face=Arial><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: Arial"></SPAN></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: Arial"><A
href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/James_while_John_had_had_had_had_had_had_
had_had_had_had_had_a_better_effect_on_the_teacher">Check here</A> for a
solution. (Sure to be denounced by Brad Johnston.)</SPAN></FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY:
Arial"></SPAN></FONT> </DIV> <DIV><FONT face=Arial><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: Arial">Dick</SPAN></FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY:
Arial"></SPAN></FONT> </DIV> <DIV><FONT face=Arial color=teal><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; COLOR: teal; FONT-FAMILY: Arial">Richard
Veit<BR>Department of English<BR></SPAN></FONT><FONT face=Arial><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: Arial"><?xml:namespace prefix = ns0 ns
= "urn:schemas-microsoft-com:office:smarttags" /><ns0:PlaceType
w:endInsDate="2008-04-13T15:29:00Z" w:endInsAuthor="UNCW"
w:insDate="2008-04-13T15:29:00Z" w:insAuthor="UNCW"><?xml:namespace prefix =
st1 ns = "urn:schemas-microsoft-com:office:smarttags" /><st1:PlaceType
w:st="on"><FONT color=teal><SPAN style="COLOR:
teal">University</SPAN></FONT></st1:PlaceType></ns0:PlaceType><FONT
color=teal><SPAN style="COLOR: teal"> of </SPAN></FONT><ns0:PlaceName
w:endInsDate="2008-04-13T15:29:00Z" w:endInsAuthor="UNCW"
w:insDate="2008-04-13T15:29:00Z" w:insAuthor="UNCW"><st1:PlaceName
w:st="on"><FONT color=teal><SPAN style="COLOR: teal">North
Carolina</SPAN></FONT></st1:PlaceName></ns0:PlaceName><FONT color=teal><SPAN
style="COLOR: teal"> </SPAN></FONT><ns0:City
w:endInsDate="2008-04-13T15:29:00Z" w:endInsAuthor="UNCW"
w:insDate="2008-04-13T15:29:00Z" w:insAuthor="UNCW"><ns0:place
w:endInsDate="2008-04-13T15:29:00Z" w:endInsAuthor="UNCW"
w:insDate="2008-04-13T15:29:00Z" w:insAuthor="UNCW"><st1:City
w:st="on"><st1:place w:st="on"><FONT color=teal><SPAN style="COLOR:
teal">Wilmington</SPAN></FONT></st1:place></st1:City></ns0:place></ns0:City>
</SPAN></FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT face=Arial><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt;
FONT-FAMILY: Arial"><ns0:City w:endInsDate="2008-04-13T15:29:00Z"
w:endInsAuthor="UNCW" w:insDate="2008-04-13T15:29:00Z"
w:insAuthor="UNCW"><ns0:place w:endInsDate="2008-04-13T15:29:00Z"
w:endInsAuthor="UNCW" w:insDate="2008-04-13T15:29:00Z"
w:insAuthor="UNCW"><st1:City w:st="on"><st1:place w:st="on"><FONT
color=teal><SPAN style="COLOR:
teal"></SPAN></FONT></st1:place></st1:City></ns0:place></ns0:City></SPAN></F
ONT> </DIV> <DIV><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY:
Arial"><ns0:City w:endInsDate="2008-04-13T15:29:00Z" w:endInsAuthor="UNCW"
w:insDate="2008-04-13T15:29:00Z" w:insAuthor="UNCW"><ns0:place
w:endInsDate="2008-04-13T15:29:00Z" w:endInsAuthor="UNCW"
w:insDate="2008-04-13T15:29:00Z" w:insAuthor="UNCW"><st1:City
w:st="on"><st1:place w:st="on"><FONT face=verdana color=#000000><SPAN
style="COLOR: teal"><STRONG><FONT
color=#000000>~~~~~~~~~~~~</FONT></STRONG></SPAN></FONT></st1:place></st1:Ci
ty></ns0:place></ns0:City></SPAN></DIV> <DIV><FONT face=Arial><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: Arial"><ns0:City
w:endInsDate="2008-04-13T15:29:00Z" w:endInsAuthor="UNCW"
w:insDate="2008-04-13T15:29:00Z" w:insAuthor="UNCW"><ns0:place
w:endInsDate="2008-04-13T15:29:00Z" w:endInsAuthor="UNCW"
w:insDate="2008-04-13T15:29:00Z" w:insAuthor="UNCW"><st1:City
w:st="on"><st1:place w:st="on"><FONT color=teal><SPAN style="COLOR:
teal"></SPAN></FONT></st1:place></st1:City></ns0:place></ns0:City></SPAN></F
ONT> </DIV> <DIV><STRONG><FONT face=arial>This item from my archives
laments three in a row and you sidle up with
eleven!</FONT></STRONG></DIV> <DIV><STRONG><FONT
face=arial></FONT></STRONG> </DIV> <DIV><STRONG><FONT
face=arial>Wow!</FONT></STRONG></DIV> <DIV><STRONG><FONT
face=arial></FONT></STRONG> </DIV> <DIV><STRONG><FONT face=arial>I am
transfixed by your audacity, Dick.</FONT></STRONG></DIV> <DIV><FONT
face=verdana></FONT> </DIV> <DIV><FONT face=verdana>This is from
<EM>The Monk Downstairs</EM>, by Tim Farrington, c.2002. </FONT>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=verdana color=#c00000>"But the dreams they had had had come
to nothing."</FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT face=verdana></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=verdana>Three 'had's in a row! </FONT><FONT face=verdana>Try
<U>that</U> sometime.</FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT
face=verdana></FONT> </DIV> <DIV><FONT face=verdana>The <EM>Jeff
Feagles</EM> <EM>Syndrome.</EM></FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT
face=verdana></FONT> </DIV> <DIV><STRONG><FONT face=arial>(Jeff, a
punter for the N.Y. Giants, is the only player in the NFL with three
consonants together in his name.)</FONT></STRONG></DIV> <DIV><STRONG><FONT
face=arial></FONT></STRONG> </DIV> <DIV><STRONG><FONT face=arial>I
will take my hat off to anyone who can come up with a legitimate
three-'had's-in-a-row, should someone care to rise to my
challenge.</FONT></STRONG></DIV> <DIV><STRONG></STRONG> </DIV>
<DIV><STRONG>.brad.sun.13apr08.</STRONG></DIV></DIV><p> ________________
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--0-413285675-1208130303=:54547--
------------------------------
Date: Sun, 13 Apr 2008 20:56:51 -0500
From: rbetting <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Re: A punctuation challenge
This is a multi-part message in MIME format.
------=_NextPart_000_0012_01C89DA8.E5BD8AD0
Content-Type: text/plain;
charset="iso-8859-1"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Brad had had had on his mind.=20
----- Original Message -----=20
From: Brad Johnston=20
To: [log in to unmask]
Sent: Sunday, April 13, 2008 6:45 PM
Subject: Re: A punctuation challenge
"Veit, Richard" <[log in to unmask]> wrote:
On the topic of the usefulness of punctuation, students might enjoy =
the challenge of punctuating the following to make it a coherent =
sentence, using only commas, quotation marks, and a semicolon.
James while John had had had had had had had had had had had a better =
effect on the teacher.
Check here for a solution. (Sure to be denounced by Brad Johnston.)
Dick
Richard Veit
Department of English
University of North Carolina Wilmington
=20
~~~~~~~~~~~~
=20
This item from my archives laments three in a row and you sidle up =
with eleven!
Wow!
I am transfixed by your audacity, Dick.
This is from The Monk Downstairs, by Tim Farrington, c.2002.=20
"But the dreams they had had had come to nothing."
Three 'had's in a row! Try that sometime.
The Jeff Feagles Syndrome.
(Jeff, a punter for the N.Y. Giants, is the only player in the NFL =
with three consonants together in his name.)
I will take my hat off to anyone who can come up with a legitimate =
three-'had's-in-a-row, should someone care to rise to my challenge.
.brad.sun.13apr08.
__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around=20
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visit the list's web interface at: =
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the list"=20
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------=_NextPart_000_0012_01C89DA8.E5BD8AD0
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charset="iso-8859-1"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
<!DOCTYPE HTML PUBLIC "-//W3C//DTD HTML 4.0 Transitional//EN">
<HTML xmlns:ns0 =3D "urn:schemas-microsoft-com:office:smarttags" =
xmlns:st1 =3D=20
"urn:schemas-microsoft-com:office:smarttags"><HEAD>
<META http-equiv=3DContent-Type content=3D"text/html; =
charset=3Diso-8859-1">
<META content=3D"MSHTML 6.00.2800.1106" name=3DGENERATOR>
<STYLE></STYLE>
</HEAD>
<BODY bgColor=3D#ffffff>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>Brad had had had on his mind. =
</FONT></DIV>
<BLOCKQUOTE dir=3Dltr=20
style=3D"PADDING-RIGHT: 0px; PADDING-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; =
BORDER-LEFT: #000000 2px solid; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px">
<DIV style=3D"FONT: 10pt arial">----- Original Message ----- </DIV>
<DIV=20
style=3D"BACKGROUND: #e4e4e4; FONT: 10pt arial; font-color: =
black"><B>From:</B>=20
<A [log in to unmask] =
href=3D"mailto:[log in to unmask]">Brad=20
Johnston</A> </DIV>
<DIV style=3D"FONT: 10pt arial"><B>To:</B> <A =
[log in to unmask]
href=3D"mailto:[log in to unmask]">[log in to unmask]</A> =
</DIV>
<DIV style=3D"FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Sent:</B> Sunday, April 13, 2008 =
6:45=20
PM</DIV>
<DIV style=3D"FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Subject:</B> Re: A punctuation=20
challenge</DIV>
<DIV><BR></DIV>
<DIV><B><I>"Veit, Richard" <<A=20
href=3D"mailto:[log in to unmask]">[log in to unmask]</A>></I></B> =
wrote:</DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial><SPAN style=3D"FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: =
Arial">On the=20
topic of the usefulness of punctuation, students might enjoy the =
challenge of=20
punctuating the following to make it a coherent sentence, using only =
commas,=20
quotation marks, and a semicolon.</SPAN></FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial><SPAN=20
style=3D"FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: =
Arial"></SPAN></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial><SPAN style=3D"FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: =
Arial">James=20
while John had had had had had had had had had had had a better effect =
on the=20
teacher.</SPAN></FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial><SPAN=20
style=3D"FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: =
Arial"></SPAN></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial><SPAN style=3D"FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: =
Arial"><A=20
=
href=3D"http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/James_while_John_had_had_had_had_had=
_had_had_had_had_had_had_a_better_effect_on_the_teacher">Check=20
here</A> for a solution. (Sure to be denounced by Brad=20
Johnston.)</SPAN></FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial><SPAN=20
style=3D"FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: =
Arial"></SPAN></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial><SPAN=20
style=3D"FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: Arial">Dick</SPAN></FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial><SPAN=20
style=3D"FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: =
Arial"></SPAN></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial color=3Dteal><SPAN=20
style=3D"FONT-SIZE: 10pt; COLOR: teal; FONT-FAMILY: Arial">Richard=20
Veit<BR>Department of English<BR></SPAN></FONT><FONT =
face=3DArial><SPAN=20
style=3D"FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: Arial"><ns0:PlaceType =
w:insAuthor=3D"UNCW"=20
w:insDate=3D"2008-04-13T15:29:00Z" w:endInsAuthor=3D"UNCW"=20
w:endInsDate=3D"2008-04-13T15:29:00Z"><st1:PlaceType w:st=3D"on"><FONT =
color=3Dteal><SPAN=20
style=3D"COLOR: =
teal">University</SPAN></FONT></st1:PlaceType></ns0:PlaceType><FONT=20
color=3Dteal><SPAN style=3D"COLOR: teal"> of =
</SPAN></FONT><ns0:PlaceName=20
w:insAuthor=3D"UNCW" w:insDate=3D"2008-04-13T15:29:00Z" =
w:endInsAuthor=3D"UNCW"=20
w:endInsDate=3D"2008-04-13T15:29:00Z"><st1:PlaceName w:st=3D"on"><FONT =
color=3Dteal><SPAN style=3D"COLOR: teal">North=20
Carolina</SPAN></FONT></st1:PlaceName></ns0:PlaceName><FONT =
color=3Dteal><SPAN=20
style=3D"COLOR: teal"> </SPAN></FONT><ns0:City w:insAuthor=3D"UNCW"=20
w:insDate=3D"2008-04-13T15:29:00Z" w:endInsAuthor=3D"UNCW"=20
w:endInsDate=3D"2008-04-13T15:29:00Z"><ns0:place w:insAuthor=3D"UNCW"=20
w:insDate=3D"2008-04-13T15:29:00Z" w:endInsAuthor=3D"UNCW"=20
w:endInsDate=3D"2008-04-13T15:29:00Z"><st1:City w:st=3D"on"><st1:place =
w:st=3D"on"><FONT color=3Dteal><SPAN=20
style=3D"COLOR: =
teal">Wilmington</SPAN></FONT></st1:place></st1:City></ns0:place></ns0:Ci=
ty></SPAN></FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial><SPAN=20
style=3D"FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: Arial"><ns0:City =
w:insAuthor=3D"UNCW"=20
w:insDate=3D"2008-04-13T15:29:00Z" w:endInsAuthor=3D"UNCW"=20
w:endInsDate=3D"2008-04-13T15:29:00Z"><ns0:place w:insAuthor=3D"UNCW"=20
w:insDate=3D"2008-04-13T15:29:00Z" w:endInsAuthor=3D"UNCW"=20
w:endInsDate=3D"2008-04-13T15:29:00Z"><st1:City w:st=3D"on"><st1:place =
w:st=3D"on"><FONT color=3Dteal><SPAN=20
style=3D"COLOR: =
teal"></SPAN></FONT></st1:place></st1:City></ns0:place></ns0:City></SPAN>=
</FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><SPAN style=3D"FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: Arial"><ns0:City=20
w:insAuthor=3D"UNCW" w:insDate=3D"2008-04-13T15:29:00Z" =
w:endInsAuthor=3D"UNCW"=20
w:endInsDate=3D"2008-04-13T15:29:00Z"><ns0:place w:insAuthor=3D"UNCW"=20
w:insDate=3D"2008-04-13T15:29:00Z" w:endInsAuthor=3D"UNCW"=20
w:endInsDate=3D"2008-04-13T15:29:00Z"><st1:City w:st=3D"on"><st1:place =
w:st=3D"on"><FONT face=3Dverdana color=3D#000000><SPAN=20
style=3D"COLOR: teal"><STRONG><FONT=20
=
color=3D#000000>~~~~~~~~~~~~</FONT></STRONG></SPAN></FONT></st1:place></s=
t1:City></ns0:place></ns0:City></SPAN></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial><SPAN=20
style=3D"FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: Arial"><ns0:City =
w:insAuthor=3D"UNCW"=20
w:insDate=3D"2008-04-13T15:29:00Z" w:endInsAuthor=3D"UNCW"=20
w:endInsDate=3D"2008-04-13T15:29:00Z"><ns0:place w:insAuthor=3D"UNCW"=20
w:insDate=3D"2008-04-13T15:29:00Z" w:endInsAuthor=3D"UNCW"=20
w:endInsDate=3D"2008-04-13T15:29:00Z"><st1:City w:st=3D"on"><st1:place =
w:st=3D"on"><FONT color=3Dteal><SPAN=20
style=3D"COLOR: =
teal"></SPAN></FONT></st1:place></st1:City></ns0:place></ns0:City></SPAN>=
</FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><STRONG><FONT face=3Darial>This item from my archives =
laments three in=20
a row and you sidle up with eleven!</FONT></STRONG></DIV>
<DIV><STRONG><FONT face=3Darial></FONT></STRONG> </DIV>
<DIV><STRONG><FONT face=3Darial>Wow!</FONT></STRONG></DIV>
<DIV><STRONG><FONT face=3Darial></FONT></STRONG> </DIV>
<DIV><STRONG><FONT face=3Darial>I am transfixed by your audacity,=20
Dick.</FONT></STRONG></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3Dverdana></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3Dverdana>This is from <EM>The Monk Downstairs</EM>, =
by Tim=20
Farrington, c.2002. </FONT>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3Dverdana color=3D#c00000>"But the dreams they had had =
had come to=20
nothing."</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3Dverdana></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3Dverdana>Three 'had's in a row! </FONT><FONT =
face=3Dverdana>Try=20
<U>that</U> sometime.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3Dverdana></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3Dverdana>The <EM>Jeff Feagles</EM>=20
<EM>Syndrome.</EM></FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3Dverdana></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><STRONG><FONT face=3Darial>(Jeff, a punter for the N.Y. Giants, =
is the=20
only player in the NFL with three consonants together in his=20
name.)</FONT></STRONG></DIV>
<DIV><STRONG><FONT face=3Darial></FONT></STRONG> </DIV>
<DIV><STRONG><FONT face=3Darial>I will take my hat off to anyone =
who=20
can come up with a legitimate three-'had's-in-a-row, should =
someone care=20
to rise to my challenge.</FONT></STRONG></DIV>
<DIV><STRONG></STRONG> </DIV>
<DIV><STRONG>.brad.sun.13apr08.</STRONG></DIV></DIV>
<P>__________________________________________________<BR>Do You=20
Yahoo!?<BR>Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection =
around=20
<BR>http://mail.yahoo.com To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please =
visit=20
the list's web interface at: =
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select "Join or leave the list"=20
<P>Visit ATEG's web site at =
http://ateg.org/</P></BLOCKQUOTE></BODY></HTML>
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------=_NextPart_000_0012_01C89DA8.E5BD8AD0--
------------------------------
Date: Sun, 13 Apr 2008 22:30:47 -0400
From: "O'Sullivan, Brian P" <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Re: A punctuation challenge
"Even before Brad joined the listserv, he had had "had" on the brain."
:)
Brian=20
-----Original Message-----
From: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar on behalf of Brad =
Johnston
Sent: Sun 4/13/2008 7:45 PM
To: [log in to unmask]
Subject: Re: A punctuation challenge
=20
"Veit, Richard" <[log in to unmask]> wrote:
=20
On the topic of the usefulness of punctuation, students might enjoy =
the challenge of punctuating the following to make it a coherent =
sentence, using only commas, quotation marks, and a semicolon.
=20
James while John had had had had had had had had had had had a better =
effect on the teacher.
=20
Check here for a solution. (Sure to be denounced by Brad Johnston.)
=20
Dick
=20
Richard Veit
Department of English
University of North Carolina Wilmington
=20
~~~~~~~~~~~~
=20
This item from my archives laments three in a row and you sidle up =
with eleven!
=20
Wow!
=20
I am transfixed by your audacity, Dick.
=20
This is from The Monk Downstairs, by Tim Farrington, c.2002. =20
"But the dreams they had had had come to nothing."
=20
Three 'had's in a row! Try that sometime.
=20
The Jeff Feagles Syndrome.
=20
(Jeff, a punter for the N.Y. Giants, is the only player in the NFL =
with three consonants together in his name.)
=20
I will take my hat off to anyone who can come up with a legitimate =
three-'had's-in-a-row, should someone care to rise to my challenge.
=20
.brad.sun.13apr08.
__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around=20
http://mail.yahoo.com=20
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------------------------------
End of ATEG Digest - 12 Apr 2008 to 13 Apr 2008 (#2008-91)
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