> Paul,
    I think it is far, far, far more important for students to learn to
place their own perspectives in the context of a larger conversation.
They need to be able to summarize an opposing side, find and
acknowledge areas of agreement, and treat the opposing side
respectfully. I have students at a college level who find it very hard
to do that, very hard to admit that an issue is not just black and
white with all the evidence on their own side. They find it hard to
see an issue through someone else's eyes. They want to defeat their
audience, not win them over. That's an egocentricity of sorts, but it
doesn't get cured by forbidding first person. If I acknowledge my own
complex humanity, I might be a step closer to acknowledging someone
else's.

Craig


In requiring students to write some papers in "formal English," I often
> come across some gray areas.  My tendancy is to be somewhat conservative
> about formal language.  I wonder where others draw lines regarding levels
> of formality.  For example, some of my students use words that seem too
> informal to me, like "morph" (verb form).  Also, I know we have discussed
> the use of the first person before, but I think it is sometimes valuable
> to challenge students to write persuasive pieces that avoid using the
> first person altogether. Where do the rest of you stand on such issues?
>
> Thanks,
>
> Paul E. Doniger
>  "If this were play'd upon a stage now, I could condemn it as an
> improbable fiction" (_Twelfth Night_ 3.4.127-128).
>
>
>
>
> ________________________________
> From: Scott Woods <[log in to unmask]>
> To: [log in to unmask]
> Sent: Sunday, May 31, 2009 6:45:07 PM
> Subject: Re: Class size ATEG Digest - 28 May 2009 to 29 May 2009 - Special
> issue (#2009-127)
>
>
> Herb,
>
> I wasn't clear.  Currently, for seventh grade English, I teach four
> groups of students for a total of 112 students.  I meet with each group
> five times each week.  I think that I could get better results by meeting
> with all the groups together on some days and with each group separately
> on others. This would reduce total student contact hours for me, but not
> for them.  With 28 total contact hours per week next year (I teach other
> classes as well), I would benefit from reducing my contact load and
> spending that time planning, developing lessons, and responding to
> writing. 
>
> Scott
>
> --- On Sun, 5/31/09, STAHLKE, HERBERT F <[log in to unmask]> wrote:
>
>
> From: STAHLKE, HERBERT F <[log in to unmask]>
> Subject: Re: Class size ATEG Digest - 28 May 2009 to 29 May 2009 - Special
> issue (#2009-127)
> To: [log in to unmask]
> Date: Sunday, May 31, 2009, 1:21 PM
>
>
> Scott,
>  
> I’m not join this debate because I don’t know the research on either
> side, but meeting one group of 112 students twice a week rather than four
> groups of 28 students twice a week for each group strikes me as simply a
> different way of handling the same student-teacher ratio.  Meeting four
> groups of 112 students twice a week for each group seems a more apt
> contrast.  Or you could lower that to four groups of 42 or 56 students. 
> The result would be much less writing and much less response to writing.
>  
> Herb
>  
> From:Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar
> [mailto:[log in to unmask]] On Behalf Of Scott Woods
> Sent: 2009-05-31 11:11
> To: [log in to unmask]
> Subject: Re: Class size ATEG Digest - 28 May 2009 to 29 May 2009 - Special
> issue (#2009-127)
>  
> Paul,
>  
> I would be interested in seeing research that shows a strong link between
> reducing class size and increasing performance. The research I have seen
> strongly suggests that the most important factor in improving student
> performance is changing what teachers do.  Reducing class size can reduce
> the amount of disruption in a class, but there is little research base
> (that I have seen) to suggest that if we reduced the size of every class
> in the country to 15 students that much would change in what students know
> and can do. 
>  
> As an English teacher, I would prefer having fewer total students, but I
> could probably teach as well if, at least twice a week, I had all 112 of
> my students in a lecture hall together.  That would give me eight hours
> of extra time to respond thoughtfully to their writing.
>  
> Scott Woods
> BASIS Scottsdale
>  
>
> --- On Fri, 5/29/09, Paul E. Doniger <[log in to unmask]> wrote:
>
> From: Paul E. Doniger [log in to unmask]
>
>
> Yes! And all research in education that I've ever seen agrees that class
> size is a vital component in successful learning.  This is especially
> important to the writing classroom.
>  
> Paul E. Doniger
>  
> "If this were play'd upon a stage now, I could condemn it as an improbable
> fiction" (_Twelfth Night_ 3.4.127-128).
>  
>  
>
> ________________________________
>
> From:Scott <[log in to unmask]>
> To: [log in to unmask]
> Sent: Friday, May 29, 2009 8:30:56 PM
> Subject: Re: Class size ATEG Digest - 28 May 2009 to 29 May 2009 - Special
> issue (#2009-127)
>
> I too am normally reluctant to classify a remark as stupid; however,
> the list member who indicated that class size was irrelevant in teaching
> writing must have been brought up by a school board member.  My alma
> mater,
> MSC, whose regular Freshman English program I have praised highly, had
> a secondary program in basic writing skills for those who had failed the
> English placement exam.  I had scored a 100 in the exam but my advisor
> had
> accidentally put my test in the "Dummy English" pile; therefore, I had to
> take a non-credit English class on the same semester as my first Freshman
> English class.  My advisor apologized to me later but I replied that I
> had
> learned more in Dummy English than in regular English because the class
> size
> was quite small--around ten students--and we wrote a theme each day
> instead
> of one a week.  The professor in the Dummy Class was also an excellent
> teacher.
>
> Having taught across the academic curriculum, I can aver that, in my
> experience, class size is more important in English composition than in
> any
> other academic class, including mathematics and foreign languages.
>
> N. Scott Catledge, PhD/STD
> Professor Emeritus
>
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