Scott,
If you look at the content of the messages, as opposed to the title,
you'll see that the discussion is entirely about 'they' as a 3rd person
singular pronoun, usage that is very old albeit controversial. If there
are any instances of 'they' as a real 1st person substitute, I'd be very
curious to see them. I think the title was a mistake. It would be an
interesting twist on illeism, and depending on the context, perhaps not
illiterate at all. (In other words, I wouldn't pre-judge that point
without examples and context.)
Karl
On 1/7/2012 7:35 AM, Scott Carledge wrote:
> 'They' is not 1st person singular but 3rd plural. It is genderless. Any
> usage of 'they' as 1st person is an example of illiteracy--regardless of
> what
> rappers and other abusers of English say. I have had some quasi-illiterate
> English professors--one marked 'bases' as a misspelling of 'basis' even
> though the context clearly required a plural. He had his PhD in English
> literature--not in English--and was not prepared to grade literature papers
> on their grammar, punctuation, spelling, and rhetoric, as well as their
> content. Even my worst literature professor would have been shocked by
> 'they' as a 1st person singular pronoun--none were that illiterate. I did
> not even hear such a usage from my rural seventh-graders when I taught
> secondary. My big-city minority students twenty years later also were not
> that illiterate.
>
> Scott Catledge
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar
> [mailto:[log in to unmask]] On Behalf Of ATEG automatic digest system
> Sent: Saturday, January 07, 2012 12:00 AM
> To: [log in to unmask]
> Subject: ATEG Digest - 5 Jan 2012 to 6 Jan 2012 (#2012-6)
>
> There are 10 messages totalling 3343 lines in this issue.
>
> Topics of the day:
>
> 1. Spoken vs. formal written English (5)
> 2. "They" - New 1st Pn. Genderless Singular
> 3. An old chestnut of a topic (4)
>
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> ----------------------------------------------------------------------
>
> Date: Fri, 6 Jan 2012 00:15:20 -0500
> From: John Chorazy<[log in to unmask]>
> Subject: Re: Spoken vs. formal written English
>
> --20cf307ca632a69caa04b5d52239
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1
>
> Hello...
>
> I'm understanding that the "grammar in context" model means finding
> grammatical functions and processes that just happen to happen in a given
> piece of prose, academic or otherwise. But then what? We take out a
> sentence, a clause, a phrase, whatever and analyze it for its grammar (what
> other choice would we have, anyway, since we're bound to a few words at a
> time when reading that way?). If "context" simply means the plot, focus,
> theme, purpose, or audience of a text, then analyzing how grammar works
> specifically to that context is really more about analyzing rhetorical
> strategies (looking at bits of language for what they do to the larger
> whole and thus to the reader/listener). Looking sentence level for things
> like adjectives etc is looking at grammar isolated - and I'm not saying
> that's a bad thing. We study prepositional phrases first and then read
> Hemingway - and it clicks. Maybe I haven't seen a successful "context"
> model for the High School level... and to get back to the SAT and other
> high stakes tests, the grammar error identification questions look at
> single sentences without larger rhetorical/narrative context. We'd like to
> be able to approach many goals; carrying sound reading comprehension
> strategies that consider both grammar and rhetoric and also being able to
> pass a very cold state, board, or agency test is often a funky marriage for
> the average student.
>
> Teresa - we use Prentice Hall Literature anthologies for which Kate
> Kinsella happens to be a contributing author. I was fascinated by the
> "Academic English Second Language" assertion, as we've had this
> conversation among faculty dozens of times. Yet teachers simply go ahead
> and assign x number of pages to read and still wonder why students (who
> actually do pass their eyes over letters and words) come back and fail
> reading check quizzes. I'd like to know more about her comments and
> suggestions, especially since she writes for textbooks...
>
> Thank you...
>
> John
>
>
>
>
>
>
> On Thu, Jan 5, 2012 at 1:49 PM, Dixon, Jack<[log in to unmask]> wrote:
>
>> Terre and Herb,
>>
>> Herb raises some excellent questions for us to consider as we think
>> through how we teach grammar -- all the language arts, actually. I think
>> his idea about "a much more thorough-going grammar in context model" is
>> very important. I certainly agree with the idea of teaching grammar in
>> context, but I have also observed that often "grammar in context" means
> not
>> teaching much grammar (or language development) at all. Herb's idea of a
>> more carefully thought through scope and sequence would be very helpful --
>> though I recognize all the problems confronting anyone willing to take on
>> this onerous task. We've discussed this issue numerous times in one way
> or
>> another on this site.
>>
>> Terre's integrated approach to teaching reading, vocabulary, writing, and
>> grammar makes much sense. Finding those readings that students find
>> relevant can certainly be a problem. (I've found one on car buying that
> my
>> college students enjoy; the author, a former car salesman, discusses how
>> customers are manipulated because of their ignorance.)
>>
>> Jack
>>
>>
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar [mailto:
>> [log in to unmask]] On Behalf Of Teresa Lintner
>> Sent: Thursday, January 05, 2012 11:59 AM
>> To: [log in to unmask]
>> Subject: Re: Spoken vs. formal written English
>>
>> Hi Herb,
>>
>> Textbooks for teaching grammar to English Language Learners in secondary
>> and higher education are going in the direction of teaching grammar in
>> context, especially in more academic contexts. It's much easier to get
>> students to use adjectives, say, if you start off with an article on
>> worker's rights and then discuss the article as well as students'
>> experiences afterwards. Students care about the topic and want to talk
>> about it. Along the way, they learn the correct placement of adjectives
> as
>> well as great vocabulary and other grammar that happens to crop up within
>> the context. ...this just happens to be the approach taken on the
>> textbooks series I'm working on. I'm not endorsing it, for the record.
>>
>>
>> Best,
>>
>> Terre
>>
>> Teresa Lintner
>> Senior Development Editor
>> Cambridge University Press
>> 32 Avenue of the Americas
>> New York, New York 10013-2473
>> Telephone: 212 337-5070
>> Fax: 212 645-5960
>> Email: [log in to unmask]
>>
>>
>>
>> From: "STAHLKE, HERBERT F"<[log in to unmask]>
>> To: [log in to unmask]
>> Date: 12/26/2011 02:32 PM
>> Subject: Re: Spoken vs. formal written English
>> Sent by: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar
>> <[log in to unmask]>
>>
>>
>>
>> Jack,
>>
>> You raise important questions or pedagogy and of content, questions we
> have
>> discussed at length on this forum without reaching consensus. Should
>> grammar be taught as content? Should it be taught as an adjunct to the
>> teaching of writing? What you suggest is that a significant amount of
>> grammar, grammar that is useful to writers, can be taught in the process
> of
>> meeting the needs of developing writers. And this leads me to wonder
>> whether a grammar in context approach might not be a way to introduce
>> grammatical knowledge that we all think is useful and presenting it in a
>> way that makes its relevance obvious. This suggests a much more
>> thorough-going grammar in context model than we usually see in writing
>> classrooms, rather, an approach that starts in early grades and
>> incorporates grammar into language arts activities across the board.
>>
>> Not being a K12 teacher, I may be describing what some teachers are
> already
>> doing.
>>
>> Herb
>>
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar [
>> mailto:[log in to unmask]] On Behalf Of Dixon, Jack
>> Sent: Sunday, December 25, 2011 6:59 AM
>> To: [log in to unmask]
>> Subject: Re: Spoken vs. formal written English
>>
>> Terre:
>>
>> Thank you for your detailed response. I do want to check out Kate
>> Kinsella's work in using academic vocabulary and sentence frames. (Any
>> titles in particular where I should start?) I am familiar with "They Say,
>> I Say" and agree that it can be useful for helping students understand
>> those deeper cognitive structures that academic writers use - actually
> used
>> by more than just academics.
>>
>> I would like a copy of your rubric if you are willing to share. Are the
>> two essays you use pieces that you have collected or written yourself, or
>> are they published somewhere so that I could access them?
>>
>> What I like about your strategies for teaching academic vocabulary and
>> using sentence frames is that you are teaching students how to communicate
>> without putting the focus on error. So many objectives that involve
>> developing language proficiency involve error avoidance or correction.
>> While correcting errors is important, teaching students how to accomplish
>> larger rhetorical goals seems more productive to me. In my classes over
>> the last few years (developmental writing and freshman English at an
>> open-admissions community college), I have worked with sentence imitation,
>> tied with comprehension. I take sentences with some level of structural
>> complexity that I can be fairly sure my students will understand when we
>> read and discuss them. I then model imitating the structure, not the
>> content; we do a few together; then, I have them write a few original
>> sentences which we read around the room. At the end of that session, the
>> students feel they have done something important.
>>
>> My underlying goal is to show them that, in fact, they know more grammar
>> than they think they do and that we are going to build on what they know.
>> As we discuss how any given structure works, I begin to introduce them to
>> the concepts of phrases, clauses, punctuation - all tied to the ways the
>> meaning gets conveyed.
>>
>> Jack
>>
>>
>> ________________________________________
>> From: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar
>> [[log in to unmask]] On Behalf Of Teresa Lintner
>> [[log in to unmask]]
>> Sent: Thursday, December 22, 2011 10:55 AM
>> To: [log in to unmask]
>> Subject: Re: Spoken vs. formal written English
>>
>> Hi Jack,
>>
>> Several people have contacted me individually about this exercise. I'm
>> happy to share my rubric with you (and anyone else), if you'd like. I'm an
>> editor by day, but at night I teach an intermediate level ESL grammar and
>> academic writing class at a community college. Every semester I've gotten
> a
>> few Gen 1.5ers and they're usually quite frustrated because they don't
> see
>> themselves as ESL students - and they're not the typical student in my
>> class. Because of learning English by 'ear', their level of proficiency is
>> hard to pinpoint - they use passive constructions but leave out verb
>> inflections and auxiliaries and have lots of SPEWD.The exercise has been a
>> way for me to address the issue of spoken vs. written English right from
>> the start in a way that makes my Gen 1.5ers feel a sense of accomplishment
>> that they've "mastered" a register in English. It also helps them
>> understand what they need to focus on in writing. The rest of the class
>> understands why they can't understand what English speakers are saying
>> around them even though they have some knowledge of the grammatical rules.
>>
>> The challenge is figuring out ways of teaching that help them learn this
>> register in speaking and writing. I've been very influenced by Kate
>> Kinsella's work in using academic vocabulary and sentence frames in spoken
>> tasks to help students become familiar with this language. If the students
>> have learned the language by 'ear' then it seems likely that if they are
>> given opportunities to use academic language to express ideas, then this
>> language will seep into their writing more naturally. That's my thinking
>> and that's what I'm exploring more and more in my teaching. I'm also
>> reading "They Say, I Say", which, I think, takes a similar approach in
>> terms of sentence frames.
>>
>> I'm happy to hear from others on this topic.
>>
>> Terre
>>
>>
>> Teresa Lintner
>> Senior Development Editor
>> Cambridge University Press
>> 32 Avenue of the Americas
>> New York, New York 10013-2473
>> Telephone: 212 337-5070
>> Fax: 212 645-5960
>> Email: [log in to unmask]
>>
>>
>>
>> From: "Dixon, Jack"<[log in to unmask]>
>> To: [log in to unmask]
>> Date: 12/21/2011 09:26 PM
>> Subject: Re: Spoken vs. formal written English
>> Sent by: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar
>> <[log in to unmask]>
>>
>>
>>
>> This strategy sounds excellent.
>>
>> ________________________________________
>> From: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar
>> [[log in to unmask]] On Behalf Of Teresa Lintner
>> [[log in to unmask]]
>> Sent: Wednesday, December 21, 2011 10:09 AM
>> To: [log in to unmask]
>> Subject: Re: Spoken vs. formal written English
>>
>> Hi Steve,
>>
>> The Longman Grammar of Spoken and Written English would be a good
> resource.
>> One thing I do with my ESL students at the beginning of the semester is to
>> present them with two short essays on the same topic, one written in SPEWD
>> (I love that acronym!) and the other in academic English. Then I ask them
>> to analyze the two essays using a rubric that helps them recognize the
>> differences between the two registers. A revelation for my Gen 1.5ers is
>> realizing that "gonna" is actually "going to."
>>
>> Terre
>>
>>
>> Teresa Lintner
>> Senior Development Editor
>> Cambridge University Press
>> 32 Avenue of the Americas
>> New York, New York 10013-2473
>> Telephone: 212 337-5070
>> Fax: 212 645-5960
>> Email: [log in to unmask]
>>
>>
>>
>> From: Stephen King<[log in to unmask]>
>> To: [log in to unmask]
>> Date: 12/20/2011 06:57 PM
>> Subject: Spoken vs. formal written English
>> Sent by: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar
>> <[log in to unmask]>
>>
>>
>>
>> Can anyone direct me to a text that focuses, at length, on the differences
>> between spoken and written versions of language? It seems to me that a
>> great many of my community college students, especially those who have
> been
>> out of school for some time, use a version of English that could be
>> characterized as "Spoken English Written Down." (A colleague suggested the
>> acronym "SPEWD.") I have my own list of those differences, but am looking
>> for other resources. Many thanks in advance!
>>
>> Steve King
>>
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