Kenkel and Yates (2009), "we explore the commonalities of L1 and L2
writers on the specific level of linguistic choices needed to order
information within and across sentence boundaries. We propose that many
of the kinds of constructions in L1 and L2 writing most difficult to
categorize, labeled as errors, are in structures that are, from the
writers’ perspective, principled attempts to meet their obligation of
managing information."

Craig, 

> > "dealing with grammar as separate from
> > the lexicon and from pragmatics and from cognition... as an isolated formal system, it will be difficult to
> > apply that to--for example--writing."

Bob has invited us to read article as it pertains directly to this
discussion, which sounds like it could be productive to me, if we can
get steer it into deeper water. I'll read the article.

Mark


On Wed, 31 Aug 2011 08:33 -0400, "Craig Hancock" <[log in to unmask]>
wrote:
> Bob,
>      I'm perplexed by the reply. I don't recall saying anything about 
> your work or Jim's work in the post. I don't recall addressing 
> "developmental writing" directly.
>      My apologies if I have somehow insulted you without trying to. I 
> have no idea where your anger is coming from, but I can sense that it is 
> real.
>     I would like to think that the ATEG list is a place where differing 
> views can be presented collegially. I would certainly look with interest 
> at your direct response to John's question.
> 
> Craig
> 
> 
> On 8/30/2011 1:07 PM, Robert Yates wrote:
> > Really?
> >
> >>>> Craig Hancock<[log in to unmask]>  08/30/11 10:56 AM>>>
> >   Much of twentieth century linguistics has done exactly that, dealing with grammar as separate from
> > the lexicon and from pragmatics and from cognition. Of course, if you
> > study grammar as an isolated formal system, it will be difficult to
> > apply that to--for example--writing. You need to devise a whole other
> > set of "rules" before that knowledge can be put to use.
> >
> > Thanks Craig for once again writing in this public forum that the work Jim Kenkel and I have done over the last decade has absolutely nothing to say about developmental writing.
> >
> > For an example of what Craig dismisses, you might want to read:
> >
> > Kenkel, J.&  Yates, R. (2009).  The interlanguage grammar of information in L1 and L2 developmental writing.  Written Communication, 26/4, 392-416.
> >
> > Someday you might actually read that work, Craig, and explain how that paper is seriously flawed and your perspective is more insightful.
> >
> > Let me make the following challenge so you can stop writing the above: Let's  propose a presentation at a conference and you can tell me to my face why my work has nothing to say about the teaching of writing to developmental writers.
> >
> > In the meantime, I'm more than willing to tell you why Systemic Functional Linguistics can't explain (at least the papers I know) why developmental writers do what they do.
> >
> > Of course, it could be we are interested in two different things: you want to describe developmental writing as how it deviates from some standard while Jim and I have been interested in understanding what the underlying principles are that result in such deviations.
> >
> > In the meantime, your last post is incredibly offensive to the work Jim Kenkel and I have done. and you know this because i have written this before. Please educate yourself and stop it or tell me how our work is useless and you assumptions are to be preferred.
> >
> > Bob Yates
> >
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> >
> > Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/
> 
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> 
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