In my usual manner, I was able to make two separate observations into 
one confusion.

You're right: OE did not have the perfect as we do today.  What I was 
saying was that I'm a bit slow on
connecting the current perfect structures has having OE roots.

By the way, your 4th paragraph is a fine statement about the perfect.

tj



On Saturday 02/19/2011 at 11:52 am, Karl Hagen   wrote:
> TJ,
>
> Could you expand a bit? I'm having trouble seeing the significance of 
> your objection anent OE. The so-called future perfect isn't found in 
> OE, but that's because OE doesn't permit multiple auxiliaries, with 
> the exception of pre-modal + passive constructions.
>
> Even so, I don't think Craig was suggesting that OE had the same range 
> of functions for the perfect that ModE does, so I don't get why the 
> absence of a future perfect in OE matters for the present discussion.
>
> As to your examples, you can, of course, use the perfect to talk about 
> actions that haven't yet occurred. Your second example is a better 
> illustration of that.
>
> The way I see the perfect working in ModE is that, in it's primary 
> function, it works as a secondary tense. That is, it's main job is to 
> signal that some even is prior to the main time of the discourse, 
> whatever that time may be, and irrespective of the grammatical tense 
> of the other verbs. In this function, the tense of the auxiliary is a 
> secondary consideration. The perfect auxiliary doesn't even have to 
> have a tense to do its job. Thus you not only have the perfect 
> occurring with various modal verbs (will, would, could, etc.) but also 
> in non-finite constructions, e.g., "I hope to have finished my paper 
> by Tuesday."
>
> The perfect also has aspectual overtones too, but that's a much more 
> complicated issue, and perhaps the subject of another message. Along 
> those lines, however, I will note that I find your first example 
> ungrammatical. For me, the perfective aspect of "has drunk" is 
> incompatible with the imperfective implication of "each morning." I 
> would use a simple present there.
>
> Karl

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