"Determine if this or that" gives you a choice. "Determine whether" would
be more appropriate if one has students who are neither second-language
learners nor linguistically impaired.
Scott Catledge
-----Original Message-----
From: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar
[mailto:[log in to unmask]] On Behalf Of ATEG automatic digest system
Sent: Tuesday, August 21, 2012 12:02 AM
To: [log in to unmask]
Subject: ATEG Digest - 18 Aug 2012 to 20 Aug 2012 (#2012-74)
There are 8 messages totalling 1774 lines in this issue.
Topics of the day:
1. Quick Common Core question (8)
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----------------------------------------------------------------------
Date: Mon, 20 Aug 2012 16:26:34 +0000
From: Ed Vavra <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Re: Quick Common Core question
Bill,
Thanks for asking this question. In addition to looking at the CC standards=
, I've looked at those of a few states, including sample exams. I can find =
nothing that suggests specific metalinguistic knowledge. I remember seeing =
somewhere that students should be able to identify verbs, but that statemen=
t itself is vague. Identifying finite verbs in simple sentences is relative=
ly easy, but identifying verbs in their own writing is another question. I'=
m hoping that you get more responses.
Ed V.
-----Original Message-----
From: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar [mailto:[log in to unmask]
OHIO.EDU] On Behalf Of Spruiell, William C
Sent: Saturday, August 18, 2012 4:01 PM
To: [log in to unmask]
Subject: Quick Common Core question
Hi all --
I'm lazily attempting to draw on ATEG's collective experience, largely beca=
use I've discovered that educational bureaucracies inevitably think of a di=
fferent name to file something under than I do. I'm in the process of makin=
g sure the English-ed grammar sections I'm about to teach address the Commo=
n Core directly. The CC has a number of statements that are ambiguous as to=
whether what's being asked for has to do with students simply "producing a=
construction", or (instead) having conscious metalinguistic knowledge of i=
t. As an example, at one point the CC says that students at grade eight sho=
uld "form and use verbs in the active and passive voice" (I'd want "voices"=
there, but that's probably pushing things). Native English-speakers withou=
t some kind of language impairment will form and use actives and passives, =
of course -- just record them long enough and you'll get both. Read one way=
, a large set of these CC objectives basically boil down to, "determine if =
any of your students are second language learners or have language impairme=
nts"; read another, they're instead "determine if your students have specif=
ic metalinguistic knowledge."
Is there anything approaching an official statement about which one of thos=
e readings is intended? If so, does anyone know where it is? Apologies if I=
'm asking something that's totally obvious. The course is one I haven't tau=
ght in a couple of years, and the switch to the CC in my state was in the e=
arly phases the last time around.
Sincerely,
Bill Spruiell
To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web interface =
at:
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and select "Join or leave the list"
Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/
To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web interface
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------------------------------
Date: Mon, 20 Aug 2012 11:29:58 -0500
From: Geoffrey Layton <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Re: Quick Common Core question
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Can we get an article for the ATEG Journal out of this discussion?
Geoff Layton
> Date: Mon=2C 20 Aug 2012 16:26:34 +0000
> From: [log in to unmask]
> Subject: Re: Quick Common Core question
> To: [log in to unmask]
>=20
> Bill=2C
> Thanks for asking this question. In addition to looking at the CC standar=
ds=2C I've looked at those of a few states=2C including sample exams. I can=
find nothing that suggests specific metalinguistic knowledge. I remember s=
eeing somewhere that students should be able to identify verbs=2C but that =
statement itself is vague. Identifying finite verbs in simple sentences is =
relatively easy=2C but identifying verbs in their own writing is another qu=
estion. I'm hoping that you get more responses.
> Ed V.
>=20
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar [mailto:[log in to unmask]
MUOHIO.EDU] On Behalf Of Spruiell=2C William C
> Sent: Saturday=2C August 18=2C 2012 4:01 PM
> To: [log in to unmask]
> Subject: Quick Common Core question
>=20
> Hi all --
>=20
> I'm lazily attempting to draw on ATEG's collective experience=2C largely =
because I've discovered that educational bureaucracies inevitably think of =
a different name to file something under than I do. I'm in the process of m=
aking sure the English-ed grammar sections I'm about to teach address the C=
ommon Core directly. The CC has a number of statements that are ambiguous a=
s to whether what's being asked for has to do with students simply "produci=
ng a construction"=2C or (instead) having conscious metalinguistic knowledg=
e of it. As an example=2C at one point the CC says that students at grade e=
ight should "form and use verbs in the active and passive voice" (I'd want =
"voices" there=2C but that's probably pushing things). Native English-speak=
ers without some kind of language impairment will form and use actives and =
passives=2C of course -- just record them long enough and you'll get both. =
Read one way=2C a large set of these CC objectives basically boil down to=
=2C "determine if any of your students are second language learners or have=
language impairments"=3B read another=2C they're instead "determine if you=
r students have specific metalinguistic knowledge."
>=20
> Is there anything approaching an official statement about which one of th=
ose readings is intended? If so=2C does anyone know where it is? Apologies =
if I'm asking something that's totally obvious. The course is one I haven't=
taught in a couple of years=2C and the switch to the CC in my state was in=
the early phases the last time around.
>=20
> Sincerely=2C
>=20
> Bill Spruiell
>=20
> To join or leave this LISTSERV list=2C please visit the list's web interf=
ace at:
> http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html
> and select "Join or leave the list"
>=20
> Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/
>=20
> To join or leave this LISTSERV list=2C please visit the list's web interf=
ace at:
> http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html
> and select "Join or leave the list"
>=20
> Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/
=
To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web interface
at:
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and select "Join or leave the list"
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--_b7dc697e-298a-419a-a6f2-7d6da7e2b70b_
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<body class=3D'hmmessage'><div dir=3D'ltr'>
Can we get an article for the ATEG Journal out of this discussion?<br><br>G=
eoff Layton<br> =3B<BR><div><div id=3D"SkyDrivePlaceholder"></div>>=
=3B Date: Mon=2C 20 Aug 2012 16:26:34 +0000<br>>=3B From: [log in to unmask]<=
br>>=3B Subject: Re: Quick Common Core question<br>>=3B To: ATEG@LISTSE=
RV.MUOHIO.EDU<br>>=3B <br>>=3B Bill=2C<br>>=3B Thanks for asking this=
question. In addition to looking at the CC standards=2C I've looked at tho=
se of a few states=2C including sample exams. I can find nothing that sugge=
sts specific metalinguistic knowledge. I remember seeing somewhere that stu=
dents should be able to identify verbs=2C but that statement itself is vagu=
e. Identifying finite verbs in simple sentences is relatively easy=2C but i=
dentifying verbs in their own writing is another question. I'm hoping that =
you get more responses.<br>>=3B Ed V.<br>>=3B <br>>=3B -----Original =
Message-----<br>>=3B From: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar [=
mailto:[log in to unmask]] On Behalf Of Spruiell=2C William C<br>>=
=3B Sent: Saturday=2C August 18=2C 2012 4:01 PM<br>>=3B To: ATEG@LISTSERV=
.MUOHIO.EDU<br>>=3B Subject: Quick Common Core question<br>>=3B <br>>=
=3B Hi all --<br>>=3B <br>>=3B I'm lazily attempting to draw on ATEG's =
collective experience=2C largely because I've discovered that educational b=
ureaucracies inevitably think of a different name to file something under t=
han I do. I'm in the process of making sure the English-ed grammar sections=
I'm about to teach address the Common Core directly. The CC has a number o=
f statements that are ambiguous as to whether what's being asked for has to=
do with students simply "producing a construction"=2C or (instead) having =
conscious metalinguistic knowledge of it. As an example=2C at one point the=
CC says that students at grade eight should "form and use verbs in the act=
ive and passive voice" (I'd want "voices" there=2C but that's probably push=
ing things). Native English-speakers without some kind of language impairme=
nt will form and use actives and passives=2C of course -- just record them =
long enough and you'll get both. Read one way=2C a large set of these CC ob=
jectives basically boil down to=2C "determine if any of your students are s=
econd language learners or have language impairments"=3B read another=2C th=
ey're instead "determine if your students have specific metalinguistic know=
ledge."<br>>=3B <br>>=3B Is there anything approaching an official stat=
ement about which one of those readings is intended? If so=2C does anyone k=
now where it is? Apologies if I'm asking something that's totally obvious. =
The course is one I haven't taught in a couple of years=2C and the switch t=
o the CC in my state was in the early phases the last time around.<br>>=
=3B <br>>=3B Sincerely=2C<br>>=3B <br>>=3B Bill Spruiell<br>>=3B <b=
r>>=3B To join or leave this LISTSERV list=2C please visit the list's web=
interface at:<br>>=3B http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html=
<br>>=3B and select "Join or leave the list"<br>>=3B <br>>=3B Visit A=
TEG's web site at http://ateg.org/<br>>=3B <br>>=3B To join or leave th=
is LISTSERV list=2C please visit the list's web interface at:<br>>=3B =
http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html<br>>=3B and select "Join =
or leave the list"<br>>=3B <br>>=3B Visit ATEG's web site at http://ate=
g.org/<br></div> </div></body>
</html>=
To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web interface
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<p>
Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/
--_b7dc697e-298a-419a-a6f2-7d6da7e2b70b_--
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 20 Aug 2012 19:43:34 +0000
From: "Spruiell, William C" <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Re: Quick Common Core question
Herb, Ed, and Geoffrey:
Thanks for the input =97 I was suspecting that many of the grammar-related =
standards were in roughly the same position as that of Schroedinger's cat, =
and this seems to be the case. I'd think that a journal piece would be usef=
ul, especially if it has any chance at all of spurring anyone in the CC ini=
tiative to make a statement one way or another. Of course, the indeterminac=
y itself may be some of the sugar helping the medicine go down.
Sincerely,
Bill S.
From: Geoffrey Layton <[log in to unmask]<mailto:[log in to unmask]>>
Reply-To: ATEG English Grammar <[log in to unmask]<mailto:ATEG@LISTSE=
RV.MUOHIO.EDU>>
Date: Monday, August 20, 2012 12:29 PM
To: ATEG English Grammar <[log in to unmask]<mailto:[log in to unmask]
HIO.EDU>>
Subject: Re: Quick Common Core question
Can we get an article for the ATEG Journal out of this discussion?
Geoff Layton
> Date: Mon, 20 Aug 2012 16:26:34 +0000
> From: [log in to unmask]<mailto:[log in to unmask]>
> Subject: Re: Quick Common Core question
> To: [log in to unmask]<mailto:[log in to unmask]>
>
> Bill,
> Thanks for asking this question. In addition to looking at the CC standar=
ds, I've looked at those of a few states, including sample exams. I can fin=
d nothing that suggests specific metalinguistic knowledge. I remember seein=
g somewhere that students should be able to identify verbs, but that statem=
ent itself is vague. Identifying finite verbs in simple sentences is relati=
vely easy, but identifying verbs in their own writing is another question. =
I'm hoping that you get more responses.
> Ed V.
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar [mailto:[log in to unmask]
MUOHIO.EDU] On Behalf Of Spruiell, William C
> Sent: Saturday, August 18, 2012 4:01 PM
> To: [log in to unmask]<mailto:[log in to unmask]>
> Subject: Quick Common Core question
>
> Hi all --
>
> I'm lazily attempting to draw on ATEG's collective experience, largely be=
cause I've discovered that educational bureaucracies inevitably think of a =
different name to file something under than I do. I'm in the process of mak=
ing sure the English-ed grammar sections I'm about to teach address the Com=
mon Core directly. The CC has a number of statements that are ambiguous as =
to whether what's being asked for has to do with students simply "producing=
a construction", or (instead) having conscious metalinguistic knowledge of=
it. As an example, at one point the CC says that students at grade eight s=
hould "form and use verbs in the active and passive voice" (I'd want "voice=
s" there, but that's probably pushing things). Native English-speakers with=
out some kind of language impairment will form and use actives and passives=
, of course -- just record them long enough and you'll get both. Read one w=
ay, a large set of these CC objectives basically boil down to, "determine i=
f any of your students are second language learners or have language impair=
ments"; read another, they're instead "determine if your students have spec=
ific metalinguistic knowledge."
>
> Is there anything approaching an official statement about which one of th=
ose readings is intended? If so, does anyone know where it is? Apologies if=
I'm asking something that's totally obvious. The course is one I haven't t=
aught in a couple of years, and the switch to the CC in my state was in the=
early phases the last time around.
>
> Sincerely,
>
> Bill Spruiell
>
> To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web interfac=
e at:
> http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html
> and select "Join or leave the list"
>
> Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/
>
> To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web interfac=
e at:
> http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html
> and select "Join or leave the list"
>
> Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/
To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web interface =
at: http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html and select "Join or leave=
the list"
Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/
To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web interface
at:
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and select "Join or leave the list"
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------------------------------
Date: Mon, 20 Aug 2012 15:45:18 -0400
From: John Chorazy <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Re: Quick Common Core question
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A few Language Standards for 11-12 grades (with my parenthetical
annotations):
1. *Demonstrate command of the conventions of standard English grammar and
usage when writing or speaking* (I'd agree there is no specific demand here
for a language set that describes the conventions, but there is broad room
for introducing it and for students to employ it in order to fulfill the
requirements of an ELA course. The Standards aren't the end or the all of
the curriculum, they're a framework for "college readiness"... though maybe
that's another discussion in itself...).
a. *Apply the understanding that usage is a matter of convention, can
change over time, and is sometimes contested* (How does one apply this
understanding without a common language set to engage in a productive
conversation? I think there's plenty of room for the classroom teacher
here, necessarily).
b.* Resolve issues of complex or contested usage, consulting references
(e.g.Merriam- Webster=92s Dictionary of English Usage, Garner=92s Modern
American Usage) as needed* (Same as above, I'd say. Complex issues demand a
complex jargon).
3. *Apply knowledge of language to understand how language functions in
different contexts, to make effective choices for meaning or style, and to
comprehend more fully when reading or listening* (This is clearly
metaknowledge, though I still agree with Ed that nothing is demanded in
specific terms.).
a. *Vary syntax for effect, consulting references (e.g., Tufte=92s Artful
Sentences) for guidance as needed; apply an understanding of syntax to the
study of complex texts when reading* (When students are asked to apply or
demonstrate knowledge, it's going to be up to the classroom teacher to
determine how that's satisfied. But the suggestion of a guiding text (Tufte
or any other) is a nod toward the need for complex and expert information
to resolve complex issues).
To go back a bit, the Standards state that 5th graders should be able to
use correlative conjunctions, explain the functions of conjunctions and
prepositions, and form and use various verb tenses; by grade 8, students
should be able to *Explain the function of verbals (gerunds, participles,
infinitives) in general and their function in particular sentences* and *Us=
e
knowledge of language and its conventions when writing, speaking, reading,
or listening*. None of that is done without metacognition and application
of at least a few terms regarding grammar - though I'm aware that the slant
is pitched away from using such terms because their practicality is
questioned.
I think it will be interesting to see what's on the state tests, frankly;
the Consortia who are determining the high stakes assessments for the
Standards are the ones who'll have the final interpretation. My sense is
that there won't be any questions "about" grammar in sight... but embedded
within the questions and readings will be a need for a rich understanding
of the complexities of language, especially by 11-12th grades.
Sincerely,
John
On Mon, Aug 20, 2012 at 12:26 PM, Ed Vavra <[log in to unmask]> wrote:
>
> Bill,
> Thanks for asking this question. In addition to looking at the CC
standards, I've looked at those of a few states, including sample exams. I
can find nothing that suggests specific metalinguistic knowledge. I
remember seeing somewhere that students should be able to identify verbs,
but that statement itself is vague. Identifying finite verbs in simple
sentences is relatively easy, but identifying verbs in their own writing is
another question. I'm hoping that you get more responses.
> Ed V.
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar [mailto:
[log in to unmask]] On Behalf Of Spruiell, William C
> Sent: Saturday, August 18, 2012 4:01 PM
> To: [log in to unmask]
> Subject: Quick Common Core question
>
> Hi all --
>
> I'm lazily attempting to draw on ATEG's collective experience, largely
because I've discovered that educational bureaucracies inevitably think of
a different name to file something under than I do. I'm in the process of
making sure the English-ed grammar sections I'm about to teach address the
Common Core directly. The CC has a number of statements that are ambiguous
as to whether what's being asked for has to do with students simply
"producing a construction", or (instead) having conscious metalinguistic
knowledge of it. As an example, at one point the CC says that students at
grade eight should "form and use verbs in the active and passive voice"
(I'd want "voices" there, but that's probably pushing things). Native
English-speakers without some kind of language impairment will form and use
actives and passives, of course -- just record them long enough and you'll
get both. Read one way, a large set of these CC objectives basically boil
down to, "determine if any of your students are second language learners or
have language impairments"; read another, they're instead "determine if
your students have specific metalinguistic knowledge."
>
> Is there anything approaching an official statement about which one of
those readings is intended? If so, does anyone know where it is? Apologies
if I'm asking something that's totally obvious. The course is one I haven't
taught in a couple of years, and the switch to the CC in my state was in
the early phases the last time around.
>
> Sincerely,
>
> Bill Spruiell
>
> To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web
interface at:
> http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html
> and select "Join or leave the list"
>
> Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/
>
> To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web
interface at:
> http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html
> and select "Join or leave the list"
>
> Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/
--
John Chorazy
English II and III, Academic and Honors
Advisor, Panther Press
Pequannock Township High School
973.616.6000
To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web interface
at:
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Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/
--14dae93993cfe38dce04c7b7bfaf
Content-Type: text/html; charset=windows-1252
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
<div>A few Language Standards for 11-12 grades (with my parenthetical annot=
ations):</div><div>=A0</div><div>1. <em>Demonstrate command of the conventi=
ons of standard English grammar and usage when writing or speaking</em> (I&=
#39;d agree there is no specific demand here for a language set that descri=
bes the conventions, but there is broad room for introducing it and for stu=
dents to employ it in order to fulfill the requirements of an ELA course. T=
he Standards aren't the end or the all of the curriculum, they're a=
framework for "college readiness"... though maybe that's ano=
ther discussion in itself...).</div>
<div>=A0</div><div>a. <em>Apply the understanding that usage is a matter of=
convention, can change over time, and is sometimes contested</em> (How doe=
s one apply this understanding without a common language set to engage in a=
productive conversation? I think there's plenty of room for the classr=
oom teacher here, necessarily).</div>
<div>=A0</div><div>b.<em> Resolve issues of complex or contested usage, con=
sulting references (e.g.Merriam- Webster=92s Dictionary of English Usage, G=
arner=92s Modern American Usage) as needed</em> (Same as above, I'd say=
. Complex issues demand a complex jargon).</div>
<div>=A0</div><div>3. <em>Apply knowledge of language to understand how lan=
guage functions in different contexts, to make effective choices for meanin=
g or style, and to comprehend more fully when reading or listening</em> (Th=
is is clearly metaknowledge, though I still agree with Ed that nothing is d=
emanded in specific terms.).</div>
<div>=A0</div><div>a. <em>Vary syntax for effect, consulting references (e.=
g., Tufte=92s Artful Sentences) for guidance as needed; apply an understand=
ing of syntax to the study of complex texts when reading</em> (When student=
s are asked to apply or demonstrate knowledge, it's going to be up to t=
he classroom teacher to determine how that's satisfied. But the suggest=
ion of a guiding text (Tufte or any other) is a nod toward the need for com=
plex and expert information to resolve complex issues).</div>
<div>=A0</div><div>To go back a bit, the Standards state that 5th graders s=
hould be able to use correlative conjunctions, explain the functions of con=
junctions and prepositions, and form and use various verb tenses; by grade =
8, students should be able to <em>Explain the function of verbals (gerunds,=
participles, infinitives) in general and their function in particular sent=
ences</em> and <em>Use knowledge of language and its conventions when writi=
ng, speaking, reading, or listening</em>. None of that is done without meta=
cognition and application of at least a few terms regarding grammar - thoug=
h I'm aware that the slant is pitched away from using such terms becaus=
e their practicality is questioned.</div>
<div>=A0</div><div>I think it will be interesting to see what's on the =
state tests, frankly; the Consortia who are determining the high stakes ass=
essments for the Standards are the ones who'll have the final interpret=
ation. My sense is that there won't be any questions "about" =
grammar in sight... but embedded within the questions and readings will be =
a need for a rich understanding of the complexities of language, especially=
by 11-12th grades.</div>
<div>=A0</div><div>Sincerely,</div><div>=A0</div><div>John</div><div>=A0</d=
iv><div>=A0</div><div>=A0</div><div>=A0</div><div>=A0</div><div>=A0</div><d=
iv>On Mon, Aug 20, 2012 at 12:26 PM, Ed Vavra <<a href=3D"mailto:evavra@=
pct.edu">[log in to unmask]</a>> wrote:</div>
<div>></div><div>> Bill,</div><div>> Thanks for asking this questi=
on. In addition to looking at the CC standards, I've looked at those of=
a few states, including sample exams. I can find nothing that suggests spe=
cific metalinguistic knowledge. I remember seeing somewhere that students s=
hould be able to identify verbs, but that statement itself is vague. Identi=
fying finite verbs in simple sentences is relatively easy, but identifying =
verbs in their own writing is another question. I'm hoping that you get=
more responses.</div>
<div>> Ed V.</div><div>></div><div>> -----Original Message-----</d=
iv><div>> From: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar [mailto:<a =
href=3D"mailto:[log in to unmask]">[log in to unmask]</a>] On B=
ehalf Of Spruiell, William C</div>
<div>> Sent: Saturday, August 18, 2012 4:01 PM</div><div>> To: <a hre=
f=3D"mailto:[log in to unmask]">[log in to unmask]</a></div><di=
v>> Subject: Quick Common Core question</div><div>></div><div>> Hi=
all --</div>
<div>></div><div>> I'm lazily attempting to draw on ATEG's co=
llective experience, largely because I've discovered that educational b=
ureaucracies inevitably think of a different name to file something under t=
han I do. I'm in the process of making sure the English-ed grammar sect=
ions I'm about to teach address the Common Core directly. The CC has a =
number of statements that are ambiguous as to whether what's being aske=
d for has to do with students simply "producing a construction", =
or (instead) having conscious metalinguistic knowledge of it. As an example=
, at one point the CC says that students at grade eight should "form a=
nd use verbs in the active and passive voice" (I'd want "voic=
es" there, but that's probably pushing things). Native English-spe=
akers without some kind of language impairment will form and use actives an=
d passives, of course -- just record them long enough and you'll get bo=
th. Read one way, a large set of these CC objectives basically boil down to=
, "determine if any of your students are second language learners or h=
ave language impairments"; read another, they're instead "det=
ermine if your students have specific metalinguistic knowledge."</div>
<div>></div><div>> Is there anything approaching an official statemen=
t about which one of those readings is intended? If so, does anyone know wh=
ere it is? Apologies if I'm asking something that's totally obvious=
. The course is one I haven't taught in a couple of years, and the swit=
ch to the CC in my state was in the early phases the last time around.</div=
>
<div>></div><div>> Sincerely,</div><div>></div><div>> Bill Spru=
iell</div><div>></div><div>> To join or leave this LISTSERV list, ple=
ase visit the list's web interface at:</div><div>> =A0 =A0 =A0<a hre=
f=3D"http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html">http://listserv.muohio.=
edu/archives/ateg.html</a></div>
<div>> and select "Join or leave the list"</div><div>></div=
><div>> Visit ATEG's web site at <a href=3D"http://ateg.org/">http:/=
/ateg.org/</a></div><div>></div><div>> To join or leave this LISTSERV=
list, please visit the list's web interface at:</div>
<div>> =A0 =A0 =A0<a href=3D"http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.ht=
ml">http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html</a></div><div>> and se=
lect "Join or leave the list"</div><div>></div><div>> Visit=
ATEG's web site at <a href=3D"http://ateg.org/">http://ateg.org/</a></=
div>
<div>=A0</div><div>=A0</div><div>=A0</div><div>=A0</div><div>--</div><div>J=
ohn Chorazy</div><div>English II and III, Academic and Honors</div><div>Adv=
isor, Panther Press</div><div>Pequannock Township High School</div><div>973=
.616.6000</div>
<div>=A0</div>
To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web interface
at:
http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html
and select "Join or leave the list"
<p>
Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/
--14dae93993cfe38dce04c7b7bfaf--
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 20 Aug 2012 16:49:21 -0500
From: Geoffrey Layton <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Re: Quick Common Core question
--_a12bdece-5e98-4816-aa49-a426b42e217d_
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Herb=2C Ed=2C Bill and all you other ATEGers - So who's going to step up to=
the plate to take a swing at that elusive curve ball - an essay for an aca=
demic journal (about 3=2C500 words)?
Geoff Layton
> Date: Mon=2C 20 Aug 2012 19:43:34 +0000
> From: [log in to unmask]
> Subject: Re: Quick Common Core question
> To: [log in to unmask]
>=20
> Herb=2C Ed=2C and Geoffrey:
>=20
> Thanks for the input =97 I was suspecting that many of the grammar-relate=
d standards were in roughly the same position as that of Schroedinger's cat=
=2C and this seems to be the case. I'd think that a journal piece would be =
useful=2C especially if it has any chance at all of spurring anyone in the =
CC initiative to make a statement one way or another. Of course=2C the inde=
terminacy itself may be some of the sugar helping the medicine go down.
>=20
> Sincerely=2C
>=20
> Bill S.
>=20
> From: Geoffrey Layton <[log in to unmask]<mailto:[log in to unmask]
>>
> Reply-To: ATEG English Grammar <[log in to unmask]<mailto:ATEG@LIST=
SERV.MUOHIO.EDU>>
> Date: Monday=2C August 20=2C 2012 12:29 PM
> To: ATEG English Grammar <[log in to unmask]<mailto:[log in to unmask]
UOHIO.EDU>>
> Subject: Re: Quick Common Core question
>=20
> Can we get an article for the ATEG Journal out of this discussion?
>=20
> Geoff Layton
>=20
> > Date: Mon=2C 20 Aug 2012 16:26:34 +0000
> > From: [log in to unmask]<mailto:[log in to unmask]>
> > Subject: Re: Quick Common Core question
> > To: [log in to unmask]<mailto:[log in to unmask]>
> >
> > Bill=2C
> > Thanks for asking this question. In addition to looking at the CC stand=
ards=2C I've looked at those of a few states=2C including sample exams. I c=
an find nothing that suggests specific metalinguistic knowledge. I remember=
seeing somewhere that students should be able to identify verbs=2C but tha=
t statement itself is vague. Identifying finite verbs in simple sentences i=
s relatively easy=2C but identifying verbs in their own writing is another =
question. I'm hoping that you get more responses.
> > Ed V.
> >
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar [mailto:ATEG@LISTSER=
V.MUOHIO.EDU] On Behalf Of Spruiell=2C William C
> > Sent: Saturday=2C August 18=2C 2012 4:01 PM
> > To: [log in to unmask]<mailto:[log in to unmask]>
> > Subject: Quick Common Core question
> >
> > Hi all --
> >
> > I'm lazily attempting to draw on ATEG's collective experience=2C largel=
y because I've discovered that educational bureaucracies inevitably think o=
f a different name to file something under than I do. I'm in the process of=
making sure the English-ed grammar sections I'm about to teach address the=
Common Core directly. The CC has a number of statements that are ambiguous=
as to whether what's being asked for has to do with students simply "produ=
cing a construction"=2C or (instead) having conscious metalinguistic knowle=
dge of it. As an example=2C at one point the CC says that students at grade=
eight should "form and use verbs in the active and passive voice" (I'd wan=
t "voices" there=2C but that's probably pushing things). Native English-spe=
akers without some kind of language impairment will form and use actives an=
d passives=2C of course -- just record them long enough and you'll get both=
. Read one way=2C a large set of these CC objectives basically boil down to=
=2C "determine if any of your students are second language learners or have=
language impairments"=3B read another=2C they're instead "determine if you=
r students have specific metalinguistic knowledge."
> >
> > Is there anything approaching an official statement about which one of =
those readings is intended? If so=2C does anyone know where it is? Apologie=
s if I'm asking something that's totally obvious. The course is one I haven=
't taught in a couple of years=2C and the switch to the CC in my state was =
in the early phases the last time around.
> >
> > Sincerely=2C
> >
> > Bill Spruiell
> >
> > To join or leave this LISTSERV list=2C please visit the list's web inte=
rface at:
> > http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html
> > and select "Join or leave the list"
> >
> > Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/
> >
> > To join or leave this LISTSERV list=2C please visit the list's web inte=
rface at:
> > http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html
> > and select "Join or leave the list"
> >
> > Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/
> To join or leave this LISTSERV list=2C please visit the list's web interf=
ace at: http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html and select "Join or l=
eave the list"
>=20
> Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/
>=20
> To join or leave this LISTSERV list=2C please visit the list's web interf=
ace at:
> http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html
> and select "Join or leave the list"
>=20
> Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/
=
To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web interface
at:
http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html
and select "Join or leave the list"
Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/
--_a12bdece-5e98-4816-aa49-a426b42e217d_
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body.hmmessage
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<body class=3D'hmmessage'><div dir=3D'ltr'>
Herb=2C Ed=2C Bill and all you other ATEGers -<BR> =3B<BR>So who's goin=
g to step up to the plate to take a swing at that elusive curve ball - an e=
ssay for an academic journal (about 3=2C500 words)?<br><br>Geoff Layton<br>=
 =3B<BR><div><div id=3D"SkyDrivePlaceholder"></div>>=3B Date: Mon=2C =
20 Aug 2012 19:43:34 +0000<br>>=3B From: [log in to unmask]<br>>=3B Sub=
ject: Re: Quick Common Core question<br>>=3B To: [log in to unmask]
<br>>=3B <br>>=3B Herb=2C Ed=2C and Geoffrey:<br>>=3B <br>>=3B Than=
ks for the input =97 I was suspecting that many of the grammar-related stan=
dards were in roughly the same position as that of Schroedinger's cat=2C an=
d this seems to be the case. I'd think that a journal piece would be useful=
=2C especially if it has any chance at all of spurring anyone in the CC ini=
tiative to make a statement one way or another. Of course=2C the indetermin=
acy itself may be some of the sugar helping the medicine go down.<br>>=3B=
<br>>=3B Sincerely=2C<br>>=3B <br>>=3B Bill S.<br>>=3B <br>>=3B =
From: Geoffrey Layton &[log in to unmask]<=3Bmailto:writergwl@HOT=
MAIL.COM>=3B>=3B<br>>=3B Reply-To: ATEG English Grammar <=3BATEG@LI=
STSERV.MUOHIO.EDU<=3Bmailto:[log in to unmask]>=3B>=3B<br>>=
=3B Date: Monday=2C August 20=2C 2012 12:29 PM<br>>=3B To: ATEG English G=
rammar &[log in to unmask]<=3Bmailto:[log in to unmask]&=
gt=3B>=3B<br>>=3B Subject: Re: Quick Common Core question<br>>=3B <br=
>>=3B Can we get an article for the ATEG Journal out of this discussion?<=
br>>=3B <br>>=3B Geoff Layton<br>>=3B <br>>=3B >=3B Date: Mon=2C =
20 Aug 2012 16:26:34 +0000<br>>=3B >=3B From: [log in to unmask]<=3Bmailt=
o:[log in to unmask]>=3B<br>>=3B >=3B Subject: Re: Quick Common Core ques=
tion<br>>=3B >=3B To: [log in to unmask]<=3Bmailto:ATEG@LISTSER=
V.MUOHIO.EDU>=3B<br>>=3B >=3B<br>>=3B >=3B Bill=2C<br>>=3B >=
=3B Thanks for asking this question. In addition to looking at the CC stand=
ards=2C I've looked at those of a few states=2C including sample exams. I c=
an find nothing that suggests specific metalinguistic knowledge. I remember=
seeing somewhere that students should be able to identify verbs=2C but tha=
t statement itself is vague. Identifying finite verbs in simple sentences i=
s relatively easy=2C but identifying verbs in their own writing is another =
question. I'm hoping that you get more responses.<br>>=3B >=3B Ed V.<br=
>>=3B >=3B<br>>=3B >=3B -----Original Message-----<br>>=3B >=3B=
From: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar [mailto:[log in to unmask]
UOHIO.EDU] On Behalf Of Spruiell=2C William C<br>>=3B >=3B Sent: Saturd=
ay=2C August 18=2C 2012 4:01 PM<br>>=3B >=3B To: [log in to unmask]
DU<=3Bmailto:[log in to unmask]>=3B<br>>=3B >=3B Subject: Qui=
ck Common Core question<br>>=3B >=3B<br>>=3B >=3B Hi all --<br>>=
=3B >=3B<br>>=3B >=3B I'm lazily attempting to draw on ATEG's collect=
ive experience=2C largely because I've discovered that educational bureaucr=
acies inevitably think of a different name to file something under than I d=
o. I'm in the process of making sure the English-ed grammar sections I'm ab=
out to teach address the Common Core directly. The CC has a number of state=
ments that are ambiguous as to whether what's being asked for has to do wit=
h students simply "producing a construction"=2C or (instead) having conscio=
us metalinguistic knowledge of it. As an example=2C at one point the CC say=
s that students at grade eight should "form and use verbs in the active and=
passive voice" (I'd want "voices" there=2C but that's probably pushing thi=
ngs). Native English-speakers without some kind of language impairment will=
form and use actives and passives=2C of course -- just record them long en=
ough and you'll get both. Read one way=2C a large set of these CC objective=
s basically boil down to=2C "determine if any of your students are second l=
anguage learners or have language impairments"=3B read another=2C they're i=
nstead "determine if your students have specific metalinguistic knowledge."=
<br>>=3B >=3B<br>>=3B >=3B Is there anything approaching an officia=
l statement about which one of those readings is intended? If so=2C does an=
yone know where it is? Apologies if I'm asking something that's totally obv=
ious. The course is one I haven't taught in a couple of years=2C and the sw=
itch to the CC in my state was in the early phases the last time around.<br=
>>=3B >=3B<br>>=3B >=3B Sincerely=2C<br>>=3B >=3B<br>>=3B >=
=3B Bill Spruiell<br>>=3B >=3B<br>>=3B >=3B To join or leave this L=
ISTSERV list=2C please visit the list's web interface at:<br>>=3B >=3B =
http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html<br>>=3B >=3B and select "=
Join or leave the list"<br>>=3B >=3B<br>>=3B >=3B Visit ATEG's web =
site at http://ateg.org/<br>>=3B >=3B<br>>=3B >=3B To join or leave=
this LISTSERV list=2C please visit the list's web interface at:<br>>=3B =
>=3B http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html<br>>=3B >=3B and s=
elect "Join or leave the list"<br>>=3B >=3B<br>>=3B >=3B Visit ATEG=
's web site at http://ateg.org/<br>>=3B To join or leave this LISTSERV li=
st=2C please visit the list's web interface at: http://listserv.muohio.edu/=
archives/ateg.html and select "Join or leave the list"<br>>=3B <br>>=3B=
Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/<br>>=3B <br>>=3B To join or =
leave this LISTSERV list=2C please visit the list's web interface at:<br>&g=
t=3B http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html<br>>=3B and selec=
t "Join or leave the list"<br>>=3B <br>>=3B Visit ATEG's web site at ht=
tp://ateg.org/<br></div>
</div></body>
</html>=
To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web interface
at:
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and select "Join or leave the list"
<p>
Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/
--_a12bdece-5e98-4816-aa49-a426b42e217d_--
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 20 Aug 2012 18:11:15 -0400
From: "MARLOW, DAVID" <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Re: Quick Common Core question
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--_000_994B1DDEC62548B490B02B9CFE9D2AF6uscupstateedu_--
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 20 Aug 2012 22:19:46 +0000
From: "Hancock, Craig G" <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Re: Quick Common Core question
--_000_D20F2B3DEFA4B943834522CB0F31DF6436774CF4BY2PRD0411MB415_
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="Windows-1252"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
At one point, I read many sets of state standards and found some consis=
tent patterns that the common core standards largely extend. For the most p=
art, grammar is thought of as a behavior. So it's not surprising that the f=
ocus would be on "demonstrating mastery" of standard English or punctuation=
, those elements that make writing most obviously different from everyday s=
peech.
Since the sixties, there has been a concerted resistance to knowledge abo=
ut language, the major argument being that "formal grammar taught in isolat=
ion" doesn't improve writing. There is also a philosophical consensus, for =
better or worse, that language is acquired naturally and that we don't need=
to teach a native speaker the grammar of their own language in order for t=
hat to happen. The attention is and has been on the differences between the=
features of that spoken language and standard English and on the differenc=
es between the demands of language as speech and language as represented in=
written form. The consensus for some time has been that this transition ca=
n be accomplished through response to actual writing and should be accompli=
shed with as little metalanguage as possible. The conversation has largely =
been around what it is "necessary" to know, with soft explanations acceptab=
le. If we respond to individual needs of classes or students and have behav=
ior (rather than knowledge) as a goal, then there is nothing to build on ye=
ar after year. We can test students on whether they can recognize "error," =
but can't test them on knowledge about language precisely because that know=
ledge has never been valued and has never been built in any kind of serious=
or systematic way.
I'm curious about what it means to vary syntax "for effect." Varied syn=
tax is essential to clarity, coherence, emphasis, and so on. Once again, th=
ough, it's couched in behavioral terms. students aren't being asked to reco=
gnize the ways in which meaning is built through syntactic choice.
Recognition of register differences are also more social (and superfici=
al). Even dismissing all the elements of nonstandard language, language dif=
fers enormously for different kinds of text, most particularly within the t=
echnical disciplines. Most of the state standards I have looked at value "l=
iterary elements," but seem oblivious to the complex demands of technical a=
nd academic texts.
Craig
________________________________
From: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar [[log in to unmask]
U] on behalf of John Chorazy [[log in to unmask]]
Sent: Monday, August 20, 2012 3:45 PM
To: [log in to unmask]
Subject: Re: Quick Common Core question
A few Language Standards for 11-12 grades (with my parenthetical annotation=
s):
1. Demonstrate command of the conventions of standard English grammar and u=
sage when writing or speaking (I'd agree there is no specific demand here f=
or a language set that describes the conventions, but there is broad room f=
or introducing it and for students to employ it in order to fulfill the req=
uirements of an ELA course. The Standards aren't the end or the all of the =
curriculum, they're a framework for "college readiness"... though maybe tha=
t's another discussion in itself...).
a. Apply the understanding that usage is a matter of convention, can change=
over time, and is sometimes contested (How does one apply this understandi=
ng without a common language set to engage in a productive conversation? I =
think there's plenty of room for the classroom teacher here, necessarily).
b. Resolve issues of complex or contested usage, consulting references (e.g=
.Merriam- Webster=92s Dictionary of English Usage, Garner=92s Modern Americ=
an Usage) as needed (Same as above, I'd say. Complex issues demand a comple=
x jargon).
3. Apply knowledge of language to understand how language functions in diff=
erent contexts, to make effective choices for meaning or style, and to comp=
rehend more fully when reading or listening (This is clearly metaknowledge,=
though I still agree with Ed that nothing is demanded in specific terms.).
a. Vary syntax for effect, consulting references (e.g., Tufte=92s Artful Se=
ntences) for guidance as needed; apply an understanding of syntax to the st=
udy of complex texts when reading (When students are asked to apply or demo=
nstrate knowledge, it's going to be up to the classroom teacher to determin=
e how that's satisfied. But the suggestion of a guiding text (Tufte or any =
other) is a nod toward the need for complex and expert information to resol=
ve complex issues).
To go back a bit, the Standards state that 5th graders should be able to us=
e correlative conjunctions, explain the functions of conjunctions and prepo=
sitions, and form and use various verb tenses; by grade 8, students should =
be able to Explain the function of verbals (gerunds, participles, infinitiv=
es) in general and their function in particular sentences and Use knowledge=
of language and its conventions when writing, speaking, reading, or listen=
ing. None of that is done without metacognition and application of at least=
a few terms regarding grammar - though I'm aware that the slant is pitched=
away from using such terms because their practicality is questioned.
I think it will be interesting to see what's on the state tests, frankly; t=
he Consortia who are determining the high stakes assessments for the Standa=
rds are the ones who'll have the final interpretation. My sense is that the=
re won't be any questions "about" grammar in sight... but embedded within t=
he questions and readings will be a need for a rich understanding of the co=
mplexities of language, especially by 11-12th grades.
Sincerely,
John
On Mon, Aug 20, 2012 at 12:26 PM, Ed Vavra <[log in to unmask]<mailto:evavra@pc=
t.edu>> wrote:
>
> Bill,
> Thanks for asking this question. In addition to looking at the CC standar=
ds, I've looked at those of a few states, including sample exams. I can fin=
d nothing that suggests specific metalinguistic knowledge. I remember seein=
g somewhere that students should be able to identify verbs, but that statem=
ent itself is vague. Identifying finite verbs in simple sentences is relati=
vely easy, but identifying verbs in their own writing is another question. =
I'm hoping that you get more responses.
> Ed V.
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar [mailto:[log in to unmask]
MUOHIO.EDU<mailto:[log in to unmask]>] On Behalf Of Spruiell, William=
C
> Sent: Saturday, August 18, 2012 4:01 PM
> To: [log in to unmask]<mailto:[log in to unmask]>
> Subject: Quick Common Core question
>
> Hi all --
>
> I'm lazily attempting to draw on ATEG's collective experience, largely be=
cause I've discovered that educational bureaucracies inevitably think of a =
different name to file something under than I do. I'm in the process of mak=
ing sure the English-ed grammar sections I'm about to teach address the Com=
mon Core directly. The CC has a number of statements that are ambiguous as =
to whether what's being asked for has to do with students simply "producing=
a construction", or (instead) having conscious metalinguistic knowledge of=
it. As an example, at one point the CC says that students at grade eight s=
hould "form and use verbs in the active and passive voice" (I'd want "voice=
s" there, but that's probably pushing things). Native English-speakers with=
out some kind of language impairment will form and use actives and passives=
, of course -- just record them long enough and you'll get both. Read one w=
ay, a large set of these CC objectives basically boil down to, "determine i=
f any of your students are second language learners or have language impair=
ments"; read another, they're instead "determine if your students have spec=
ific metalinguistic knowledge."
>
> Is there anything approaching an official statement about which one of th=
ose readings is intended? If so, does anyone know where it is? Apologies if=
I'm asking something that's totally obvious. The course is one I haven't t=
aught in a couple of years, and the switch to the CC in my state was in the=
early phases the last time around.
>
> Sincerely,
>
> Bill Spruiell
>
> To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web interfac=
e at:
> http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html
> and select "Join or leave the list"
>
> Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/
>
> To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web interfac=
e at:
> http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html
> and select "Join or leave the list"
>
> Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/
--
John Chorazy
English II and III, Academic and Honors
Advisor, Panther Press
Pequannock Township High School
973.616.6000
To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web interface =
at: http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html and select "Join or leave=
the list"
Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/
To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web interface
at:
http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html
and select "Join or leave the list"
Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/
--_000_D20F2B3DEFA4B943834522CB0F31DF6436774CF4BY2PRD0411MB415_
Content-Type: text/html; charset="Windows-1252"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
<html dir=3D"ltr">
<head>
<meta http-equiv=3D"Content-Type" content=3D"text/html; charset=3DWindows-1=
252">
<style type=3D"text/css" id=3D"owaParaStyle"></style>
</head>
<body fpstyle=3D"1" ocsi=3D"0">
<div style=3D"direction: ltr;font-family: Tahoma;color: #000000;font-size: =
10pt;"> At one point, I read many sets of state standards and =
found some consistent patterns that the common core standards largely exten=
d. For the most part, grammar is thought of
as a behavior. So it's not surprising that the focus would be on "dem=
onstrating mastery" of standard English or punctuation, those elements=
that make writing most obviously different from everyday speech. &n=
bsp;
<div> Since the sixties, there has been a concerted resistance t=
o knowledge about language, the major argument being that "formal gram=
mar taught in isolation" doesn't improve writing. There is also a phil=
osophical consensus, for better or worse, that language
is acquired naturally and that we don't need to teach a native speaker the=
grammar of their own language in order for that to happen. The attention i=
s and has been on the differences between the features of that spoken langu=
age and standard English and on
the differences between the demands of language as speech and language as =
represented in written form. The consensus for some time has been that this=
transition can be accomplished through response to actual writing and shou=
ld be accomplished with as little
metalanguage as possible. The conversation has largely been around what it=
is "necessary" to know, with soft explanations acceptable. If we=
respond to individual needs of classes or students and have behavior (rath=
er than knowledge) as a goal, then there is
nothing to build on year after year. We can test students on whether they =
can recognize "error," but can't test them on knowledge about lan=
guage precisely because that knowledge has never been valued and has never =
been built in any kind of serious or systematic
way.</div>
<div> I'm curious about what it means to vary syntax "for=
effect." Varied syntax is essential to clarity, coherence, emphasis, =
and so on. Once again, though, it's couched in behavioral terms. students a=
ren't being asked to recognize the ways in which meaning
is built through syntactic choice.</div>
<div> Recognition of register differences are also more social=
(and superficial). Even dismissing all the elements of nonstandard languag=
e, language differs enormously for different kinds of text, most particular=
ly within the technical disciplines. Most
of the state standards I have looked at value "literary elements,&quo=
t; but seem oblivious to the complex demands of technical and academic text=
s.</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>Craig</div>
<div> <br>
<div>
<div style=3D"font-family: Times New Roman; color: #000000; font-size: 16px=
">
<hr tabindex=3D"-1">
<div id=3D"divRpF303959" style=3D"direction: ltr; "><font face=3D"Tahoma" s=
ize=3D"2" color=3D"#000000"><b>From:</b> Assembly for the Teaching of Engli=
sh Grammar [[log in to unmask]] on behalf of John Chorazy [john.chora=
[log in to unmask]]<br>
<b>Sent:</b> Monday, August 20, 2012 3:45 PM<br>
<b>To:</b> [log in to unmask]<br>
<b>Subject:</b> Re: Quick Common Core question<br>
</font><br>
</div>
<div></div>
<div>
<div>A few Language Standards for 11-12 grades (with my parenthetical annot=
ations):</div>
<div> </div>
<div>1. <em>Demonstrate command of the conventions of standard English gram=
mar and usage when writing or speaking</em> (I'd agree there is no specific=
demand here for a language set that describes the conventions, but there i=
s broad room for introducing it
and for students to employ it in order to fulfill the requirements of an E=
LA course. The Standards aren't the end or the all of the curriculum, they'=
re a framework for "college readiness"... though maybe that's ano=
ther discussion in itself...).</div>
<div> </div>
<div>a. <em>Apply the understanding that usage is a matter of convention, c=
an change over time, and is sometimes contested</em> (How does one apply th=
is understanding without a common language set to engage in a productive co=
nversation? I think there's plenty
of room for the classroom teacher here, necessarily).</div>
<div> </div>
<div>b.<em> Resolve issues of complex or contested usage, consulting refere=
nces (e.g.Merriam- Webster=92s Dictionary of English Usage, Garner=92s Mode=
rn American Usage) as needed</em> (Same as above, I'd say. Complex issues d=
emand a complex jargon).</div>
<div> </div>
<div>3. <em>Apply knowledge of language to understand how language function=
s in different contexts, to make effective choices for meaning or style, an=
d to comprehend more fully when reading or listening</em> (This is clearly =
metaknowledge, though I still agree
with Ed that nothing is demanded in specific terms.).</div>
<div> </div>
<div>a. <em>Vary syntax for effect, consulting references (e.g., Tufte=92s =
Artful Sentences) for guidance as needed; apply an understanding of syntax =
to the study of complex texts when reading</em> (When students are asked to=
apply or demonstrate knowledge, it's
going to be up to the classroom teacher to determine how that's satisfied.=
But the suggestion of a guiding text (Tufte or any other) is a nod toward =
the need for complex and expert information to resolve complex issues).</di=
v>
<div> </div>
<div>To go back a bit, the Standards state that 5th graders should be able =
to use correlative conjunctions, explain the functions of conjunctions and =
prepositions, and form and use various verb tenses; by grade 8, students sh=
ould be able to
<em>Explain the function of verbals (gerunds, participles, infinitives) in =
general and their function in particular sentences</em> and
<em>Use knowledge of language and its conventions when writing, speaking, r=
eading, or listening</em>. None of that is done without metacognition and a=
pplication of at least a few terms regarding grammar - though I'm aware tha=
t the slant is pitched away from
using such terms because their practicality is questioned.</div>
<div> </div>
<div>I think it will be interesting to see what's on the state tests, frank=
ly; the Consortia who are determining the high stakes assessments for the S=
tandards are the ones who'll have the final interpretation. My sense is tha=
t there won't be any questions "about"
grammar in sight... but embedded within the questions and readings will be=
a need for a rich understanding of the complexities of language, especiall=
y by 11-12th grades.</div>
<div> </div>
<div>Sincerely,</div>
<div> </div>
<div>John</div>
<div> </div>
<div> </div>
<div> </div>
<div> </div>
<div> </div>
<div> </div>
<div>On Mon, Aug 20, 2012 at 12:26 PM, Ed Vavra <<a href=3D"mailto:evavr=
[log in to unmask]" target=3D"_blank">[log in to unmask]</a>> wrote:</div>
<div>></div>
<div>> Bill,</div>
<div>> Thanks for asking this question. In addition to looking at the CC=
standards, I've looked at those of a few states, including sample exams. I=
can find nothing that suggests specific metalinguistic knowledge. I rememb=
er seeing somewhere that students should
be able to identify verbs, but that statement itself is vague. Identifying=
finite verbs in simple sentences is relatively easy, but identifying verbs=
in their own writing is another question. I'm hoping that you get more res=
ponses.</div>
<div>> Ed V.</div>
<div>></div>
<div>> -----Original Message-----</div>
<div>> From: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar [mailto:<a hre=
f=3D"mailto:[log in to unmask]" target=3D"_blank">[log in to unmask]
O.EDU</a>] On Behalf Of Spruiell, William C</div>
<div>> Sent: Saturday, August 18, 2012 4:01 PM</div>
<div>> To: <a href=3D"mailto:[log in to unmask]" target=3D"_blank"=
>[log in to unmask]</a></div>
<div>> Subject: Quick Common Core question</div>
<div>></div>
<div>> Hi all --</div>
<div>></div>
<div>> I'm lazily attempting to draw on ATEG's collective experience, la=
rgely because I've discovered that educational bureaucracies inevitably thi=
nk of a different name to file something under than I do. I'm in the proces=
s of making sure the English-ed grammar
sections I'm about to teach address the Common Core directly. The CC has a=
number of statements that are ambiguous as to whether what's being asked f=
or has to do with students simply "producing a construction", or =
(instead) having conscious metalinguistic
knowledge of it. As an example, at one point the CC says that students at =
grade eight should "form and use verbs in the active and passive voice=
" (I'd want "voices" there, but that's probably pushing thin=
gs). Native English-speakers without some kind of language
impairment will form and use actives and passives, of course -- just recor=
d them long enough and you'll get both. Read one way, a large set of these =
CC objectives basically boil down to, "determine if any of your studen=
ts are second language learners or have
language impairments"; read another, they're instead "determine =
if your students have specific metalinguistic knowledge."</div>
<div>></div>
<div>> Is there anything approaching an official statement about which o=
ne of those readings is intended? If so, does anyone know where it is? Apol=
ogies if I'm asking something that's totally obvious. The course is one I h=
aven't taught in a couple of years,
and the switch to the CC in my state was in the early phases the last time=
around.</div>
<div>></div>
<div>> Sincerely,</div>
<div>></div>
<div>> Bill Spruiell</div>
<div>></div>
<div>> To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web =
interface at:</div>
<div>> <a href=3D"http://listserv.muohio.edu/archive=
s/ateg.html" target=3D"_blank">http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.htm=
l</a></div>
<div>> and select "Join or leave the list"</div>
<div>></div>
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<div>--</div>
<div>John Chorazy</div>
<div>English II and III, Academic and Honors</div>
<div>Advisor, Panther Press</div>
<div>Pequannock Township High School</div>
<div>973.616.6000</div>
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--_000_D20F2B3DEFA4B943834522CB0F31DF6436774CF4BY2PRD0411MB415_--
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 20 Aug 2012 18:26:20 -0500
From: Geoffrey Layton <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Re: Quick Common Core question
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David - You're in luck! How does the end of the fall semester look to you =
- say mid-December?
Geoff Layton
Date: Mon=2C 20 Aug 2012 18:11:15 -0400
From: [log in to unmask]
Subject: Re: Quick Common Core question
To: [log in to unmask]
I might be willing... When do you need it?
< If you are out there saying=2C "oh=2C why didn't I speak sooner?!?"=2C sp=
eak now... I'm interested in this=2C but have other irons in the fire as we=
ll=2C so I'd happily step aside for another volunteer... >
Best=2C
D
< Written using speech recognition software &/or an iPad keyboard by my fat=
fingers... Please forgive spelling and punctuation errors >
On Aug 20=2C 2012=2C at 5:50 PM=2C "Geoffrey Layton" <[log in to unmask]
> wrote:
Herb=2C Ed=2C Bill and all you other ATEGers -
=20
So who's going to step up to the plate to take a swing at that elusive curv=
e ball - an essay for an academic journal (about 3=2C500 words)?
Geoff Layton
=20
> Date: Mon=2C 20 Aug 2012 19:43:34 +0000
> From: [log in to unmask]
> Subject: Re: Quick Common Core question
> To: [log in to unmask]
>=20
> Herb=2C Ed=2C and Geoffrey:
>=20
> Thanks for the input =97 I was suspecting that many of the grammar-relate=
d standards were in roughly the same position as that of Schroedinger's cat=
=2C and this seems to be the case. I'd think that a journal piece would be =
useful=2C especially if it has any chance at all of spurring anyone in the =
CC initiative to make a statement one way or another. Of course=2C the inde=
terminacy itself may be some of the sugar helping the medicine go down.
>=20
> Sincerely=2C
>=20
> Bill S.
>=20
> From: Geoffrey Layton <[log in to unmask]<mailto:[log in to unmask]
>>
> Reply-To: ATEG English Grammar <[log in to unmask]<mailto:ATEG@LIST=
SERV.MUOHIO.EDU>>
> Date: Monday=2C August 20=2C 2012 12:29 PM
> To: ATEG English Grammar <[log in to unmask]<mailto:[log in to unmask]
UOHIO.EDU>>
> Subject: Re: Quick Common Core question
>=20
> Can we get an article for the ATEG Journal out of this discussion?
>=20
> Geoff Layton
>=20
> > Date: Mon=2C 20 Aug 2012 16:26:34 +0000
> > From: [log in to unmask]<mailto:[log in to unmask]>
> > Subject: Re: Quick Common Core question
> > To: [log in to unmask]<mailto:[log in to unmask]>
> >
> > Bill=2C
> > Thanks for asking this question. In addition to looking at the CC stand=
ards=2C I've looked at those of a few states=2C including sample exams. I c=
an find nothing that suggests specific metalinguistic knowledge. I remember=
seeing somewhere that students should be able to identify verbs=2C but tha=
t statement itself is vague. Identifying finite verbs in simple sentences i=
s relatively easy=2C but identifying verbs in their own writing is another =
question. I'm hoping that you get more responses.
> > Ed V.
> >
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar [mailto:ATEG@LISTSER=
V.MUOHIO.EDU] On Behalf Of Spruiell=2C William C
> > Sent: Saturday=2C August 18=2C 2012 4:01 PM
> > To: [log in to unmask]<mailto:[log in to unmask]>
> > Subject: Quick Common Core question
> >
> > Hi all --
> >
> > I'm lazily attempting to draw on ATEG's collective experience=2C largel=
y because I've discovered that educational bureaucracies inevitably think o=
f a different name to file something under than I do. I'm in the process of=
making sure the English-ed grammar sections I'm about to teach address the=
Common Core directly. The CC has a number of statements that are ambiguous=
as to whether what's being asked for has to do with students simply "produ=
cing a construction"=2C or (instead) having conscious metalinguistic knowle=
dge of it. As an example=2C at one point the CC says that students at grade=
eight should "form and use verbs in the active and passive voice" (I'd wan=
t "voices" there=2C but that's probably pushing things). Native English-spe=
akers without some kind of language impairment will form and use actives an=
d passives=2C of course -- just record them long enough and you'll get both=
. Read one way=2C a large set of these CC objectives basically boil down to=
=2C "determine if any of your students are second language learners or have=
language impairments"=3B read another=2C they're instead "determine if you=
r students have specific metalinguistic knowledge."
> >
> > Is there anything approaching an official statement about which one of =
those readings is intended? If so=2C does anyone know where it is? Apologie=
s if I'm asking something that's totally obvious. The course is one I haven=
't taught in a couple of years=2C and the switch to the CC in my state was =
in the early phases the last time around.
> >
> > Sincerely=2C
> >
> > Bill Spruiell
> >
> > To join or leave this LISTSERV list=2C please visit the list's web inte=
rface at:
> > http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html
> > and select "Join or leave the list"
> >
> > Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/
> >
> > To join or leave this LISTSERV list=2C please visit the list's web inte=
rface at:
> > http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html
> > and select "Join or leave the list"
> >
> > Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/
> To join or leave this LISTSERV list=2C please visit the list's web interf=
ace at: http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html and select "Join or l=
eave the list"
>=20
> Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/
>=20
> To join or leave this LISTSERV list=2C please visit the list's web interf=
ace at:
> http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html
> and select "Join or leave the list"
>=20
> Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/
=20
To join or leave this LISTSERV list=2C please visit the list's web interfac=
e at:
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and select "Join or leave the list"
Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/
=
To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web interface
at:
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<body class=3D'hmmessage'><div dir=3D'ltr'>
David - <BR> =3B<BR>You're in luck! How does the end of the fall semest=
er look to you - say mid-December?<br><br>Geoff Layton<br> =3B<BR><div>=
<div id=3D"SkyDrivePlaceholder"></div><hr id=3D"stopSpelling">Date: Mon=2C =
20 Aug 2012 18:11:15 -0400<br>From: [log in to unmask]<br>Subject: Re: =
Quick Common Core question<br>To: [log in to unmask]<br><br><div>I mi=
ght be willing... When do you need it?</div><div><br></div><div><=3B If y=
ou are out there saying=2C "oh=2C why didn't I speak sooner?!?"=2C speak no=
w... I'm interested in this=2C but have other irons in the fire as well=2C =
so I'd happily step aside for another volunteer... >=3B<br><br>Best=2C<di=
v><br></div><div>D</div><div><br></div><div><=3B Written using speech&nbs=
p=3Brecognition software &=3B/or an iPad keyboard by my fat fingers... P=
lease forgive spelling and punctuation =3Berrors >=3B</div></div><div=
><br>On Aug 20=2C 2012=2C at 5:50 PM=2C "Geoffrey Layton" <=3B<a href=3D"=
mailto:[log in to unmask]">[log in to unmask]</a>>=3B wrote:<br><br=
></div><div></div><blockquote><div>
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<div dir=3D"ltr">
Herb=2C Ed=2C Bill and all you other ATEGers -<br> =3B<br>So who's goin=
g to step up to the plate to take a swing at that elusive curve ball - an e=
ssay for an academic journal (about 3=2C500 words)?<br><br>Geoff Layton<br>=
 =3B<br><div><div id=3D"ecxSkyDrivePlaceholder"></div>>=3B Date: Mon=
=2C 20 Aug 2012 19:43:34 +0000<br>>=3B From: <a href=3D"mailto:sprui1wc@C=
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------------------------------
End of ATEG Digest - 18 Aug 2012 to 20 Aug 2012 (#2012-74)
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