If a set of words can be diagrammed as a phrase, then the reduced relative
clause is an unnecessary complication.
Scott Catledge
-----Original Message-----
From: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar
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Sent: Monday, November 19, 2007 12:04 AM
To: [log in to unmask]
Subject: ATEG Digest - 17 Nov 2007 to 18 Nov 2007 (#2007-164)
There are 4 messages totalling 414 lines in this issue.
Topics of the day:
1. Instruction versus learning (3)
2. NCTE
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Date: Sun, 18 Nov 2007 14:31:19 -0800
From: "Castilleja, Janet" <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Re: Instruction versus learning
Hi=20
=20
It is a reduced relative clause. The pre-reduction sentence is=20
'A healthy meal which is available at many fast-food restaurants is a =
salad with low-fat dressing.' Reduced clauses of various types are =
quite common.
=20
Janet Castilleja
Heritage University
________________________________
From: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar on behalf of Peter =
Adams
Sent: Sat 11/17/2007 7:00 AM
To: [log in to unmask]
Subject: Re: Instruction versus learning
I agree with Kathleen, but some of my colleagues are arguing that it is =
a reduced relative clause. Does anyone agree with them?=20
Peter
On Nov 17, 2007, at 12:03 AM, Kathleen M. Ward wrote:
I think that it's just an adjective phrase, modified with a =
prepositional phrase. Adjective phrases that are postmodified follow =
the noun rather than preceding it. There are lots of examples.=20
Kathleen Ward
UC Davis
On Nov 16, 2007, at 8:52 PM, Peter Adams wrote:
Could someone help me analyze this sentence:
=09
=09
=09
A healthy meal available at many fast-food restaurants is a
salad with =
low-fat dressing.
=09
=09
What is the underlined phrase?
=09
=09
Thanks.
=09
=09
Peter Adams
=09
=09
=09
=09
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/
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------------------------------
Date: Sun, 18 Nov 2007 21:31:31 -0500
From: Peter Adams <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Re: Instruction versus learning
Now, Janet and Kathleen, what are we to make of this? Each of you
asserts your view quite confidently. I'm wondering if there is some
test, some definition, that can lead one to recognize a "reduced
relative clause" when one sees one. Alternatively, what is to
prevent us from simply declaring all post position adjectives as
reduced relative clauses? What do we gain by calling such
constructions reduced relative clauses" What do we lose if we, as I
am inclined to do, simply call them adjectives?
Peter Adams
On Nov 18, 2007, at 5:31 PM, Castilleja, Janet wrote:
> Hi
>
> It is a reduced relative clause. The pre-reduction sentence is
> 'A healthy meal which is available at many fast-food restaurants is
> a salad with low-fat dressing.' Reduced clauses of various types
> are quite common.
>
> Janet Castilleja
> Heritage University
>
> ________________________________
>
> From: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar on behalf of
> Peter Adams
> Sent: Sat 11/17/2007 7:00 AM
> To: [log in to unmask]
> Subject: Re: Instruction versus learning
>
>
> I agree with Kathleen, but some of my colleagues are arguing that
> it is a reduced relative clause. Does anyone agree with them?
>
> Peter
>
> On Nov 17, 2007, at 12:03 AM, Kathleen M. Ward wrote:
>
>
> I think that it's just an adjective phrase, modified with a
> prepositional phrase. Adjective phrases that are postmodified
> follow the noun rather than preceding it. There are lots of examples.
>
> Kathleen Ward
> UC Davis
>
> On Nov 16, 2007, at 8:52 PM, Peter Adams wrote:
>
>
> Could someone help me analyze this sentence:
>
>
>
> A healthy meal available at many fast-food restaurants is a
> salad with low-fat dressing.
>
>
> What is the underlined phrase?
>
>
> Thanks.
>
>
> Peter Adams
>
>
>
>
> = To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the
> list's web interface at: http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/
> ateg.html and select "Join or leave the list"
>
> Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org <http://ateg.org/> /
>
>
> To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's
> web interface at: http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html and
> select "Join or leave the list"
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> Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org <http://ateg.org/> /
>
>
> = To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web
> interface at: http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html and
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> Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/
>
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------------------------------
Date: Sun, 18 Nov 2007 22:46:39 EST
From: Peter Adams <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: NCTE
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As the NCTE conference winds down, I'd love to hear some reports from those
who were there. How did ATEG fair? Were there presentations on grammar?
Were they well attended? Can anyone give a report?
Peter Adams
**************************************
See what's new at http://www.aol.com
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<HTML><FONT FACE=3Darial,helvetica><HTML><FONT COLOR=3D"#000000"
FACE=3D"Gen=
eva" FAMILY=3D"SANSSERIF" SIZE=3D"2">As the NCTE conference winds down,
I'd=20=
love to hear some reports from those who were there. How did ATEG
fai=
r? Were there presentations on grammar? Were they well
attende=
d? Can anyone give a report?<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
Peter Adams<BR>
</FONT><FONT COLOR=3D"#000000" FACE=3D"Geneva" FAMILY=3D"SANSSERIF"
SIZE=3D"=
2"></FONT><BR><BR><BR>**************************************<BR> See
what's=20=
new at http://www.aol.com</HTML>
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<p>
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--part1_d18.1826c43f.3472611f_boundary--
------------------------------
Date: Sun, 18 Nov 2007 23:38:43 -0500
From: "STAHLKE, HERBERT F" <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Re: Instruction versus learning
I think the Reduced Relative Clause analysis is a relic of early
Transformational Grammar, when linguists were enamored of the power of
transformations and hadn't het become sufficiently suspicious of such
formal power. Transformations can, in fact, do anything you want them
do to, regardless of whether or not that thing is well supported by how
language works. The delightfully named transformation Wh-is deletion
made it easy to posit a relative clause underlying any adjectival noun
modifier. Combine that with adjective-shift to move a single word
adjective from post-nominal to pre-nominal position, and you had
tremendous power tied up in two simple transformations. Of course,
transformations couldn't account for restrictions on order of
pre-nominal adjectives. Nor could they account for the fact that there
were restrictions on the order of post-nominal modifiers as well, as in
"a student of linguistics from Chicago" vs. "a student from Chicago of
linguistics", while you could say either "a car parked by the side of
the road with red tires" or "a car with red tires parked by the side of
the road." And then, of course, there were adjectives like "late" that
couldn't occur in the predicate of a relative clause, as in "the late
President Reagan" vs. "*President Reagan who was late." The second
sentence works only with a temporal meaning, not the meaning that he's
dead. =20
What Chomsky's work starting around 1968, followed by his own and other
work by his students, demonstrated was that for transformations to make
linguistically useful generalizations they had to be very tightly
constrained, and you couldn't create a transformation just because a
derivation made sense, like reducing all single-word and phrasal noun
modifiers from relative clauses. Relative clause reduction was one of
these things that was justified only by simplicity, that it provided a
common source for nominal modifiers and so simplified the Phrase
Structure Rules. That was a purely formal justification, something the
model could do and therefore did. It was not motivated by actual
linguistic data. The relative clause reduction analysis fell under its
own weight, since it could be motivated only formally and ran into
intractable problems with conflicting data.
Herb
Now, Janet and Kathleen, what are we to make of this? Each of you =20
asserts your view quite confidently. I'm wondering if there is some =20
test, some definition, that can lead one to recognize a "reduced =20
relative clause" when one sees one. Alternatively, what is to =20
prevent us from simply declaring all post position adjectives as =20
reduced relative clauses? What do we gain by calling such =20
constructions reduced relative clauses" What do we lose if we, as I =20
am inclined to do, simply call them adjectives?
Peter Adams
On Nov 18, 2007, at 5:31 PM, Castilleja, Janet wrote:
> Hi
>
> It is a reduced relative clause. The pre-reduction sentence is
> 'A healthy meal which is available at many fast-food restaurants is =20
> a salad with low-fat dressing.' Reduced clauses of various types =20
> are quite common.
>
> Janet Castilleja
> Heritage University
>
> ________________________________
>
> From: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar on behalf of =20
> Peter Adams
> Sent: Sat 11/17/2007 7:00 AM
> To: [log in to unmask]
> Subject: Re: Instruction versus learning
>
>
> I agree with Kathleen, but some of my colleagues are arguing that =20
> it is a reduced relative clause. Does anyone agree with them?
>
> Peter
>
> On Nov 17, 2007, at 12:03 AM, Kathleen M. Ward wrote:
>
>
> I think that it's just an adjective phrase, modified with a =20
> prepositional phrase. Adjective phrases that are postmodified =20
> follow the noun rather than preceding it. There are lots of examples.
>
> Kathleen Ward
> UC Davis
>
> On Nov 16, 2007, at 8:52 PM, Peter Adams wrote:
>
>
> Could someone help me analyze this sentence:
>
>
>
> A healthy meal available at many fast-food restaurants is a =20
> salad with low-fat dressing.
>
>
> What is the underlined phrase?
>
>
> Thanks.
>
>
> Peter Adams
>
>
>
>
> =3D To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the =20
> list's web interface at: http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/=20
> ateg.html and select "Join or leave the list"
>
> Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org <http://ateg.org/> /
>
>
> To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's =20
> web interface at: http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html and =20
> select "Join or leave the list"
>
> Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org <http://ateg.org/> /
>
>
> =3D To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web =20
> interface at: http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html and =20
> select "Join or leave the list"
>
> Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/
>
> To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web =20
> interface at:
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> and select "Join or leave the list"
>
> Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/
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End of ATEG Digest - 17 Nov 2007 to 18 Nov 2007 (#2007-164)
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