Craig,
I agree with both you and Dick, and I also think this highlights the
need to keep the form/function distinction clearly in mind when
discussing such things.
Mixing the two up (something traditional grammar does with great
frequency) almost always leads to confusion, particularly because when
you don't distinguish the two, it fosters the notion that there is
precisely one meaning for each form. So, for example, you get the idea
that the past tense always refers to past time. Or, conversely, that
past time must always be expressed in the past tense.
BTW, one minor quibble, I would want the definition of the perfect as a
form to include a mention that "have" must be an auxiliary, since it is
possible to construct sentences where a main-verb "have" is followed by
a past participle with another function (e.g., a noun modifier), making
the sequence has/have/had + past participle merely a fortuitous collocation.
Karl
On 2/17/2011 7:02 PM, Craig Hancock wrote:
> Dick,
> You have espoused a position (if I followed it right) that I would
> fundamentally agree with: that the past perfect is recognizable first
> and foremost as a form--had plus past participle. And that whether it
> is being used appropriately or inappropriately, effectively or
> ineffectively, it remains past perfect, just as a screw driver remains
> a screw driver even when you use it to poke someone in the eye.
> Questions about effective use can be thought of as separate from that.
>
> Craig>
>
>
> Craig,
>>
>> I agree completely, and I look forward to every one of Herb's posts. But
>> people do continue to respond to Brad. If doing the same thing again and
>> again and expecting a different result is insanity, I wonder who is
>> crazier,
>> those who keep taking Brad's bait or those (like you and me) who keep
>> trying
>> to get others to *stop *taking his bait.
>>
>> Dick
>>
>>
>> On Thu, Feb 17, 2011 at 10:10 AM, Craig Hancock<[log in to unmask]>
>> wrote:
>>
>>> Dick,
>>> The idea for this most recent conversation is to come up with a view
>>> of
>>> the past perfect that pleases the rest of us. Whether it pleases Brad is
>>> not
>>> important. It is insanity to expect a conversation with Brad to
>>> accomplish
>>> anything new, so our goal should be to discuss it with each other. I am
>>> looking forward to reading what Herb comes up with. I expect Brad to
>>> react
>>> angrily to that, but his response is irrelevant.
>>> I may be wrong, but I think reacting to Brad has kept us from a
>>> productive discussion.
>>>
>>> Craig
>>>
>>>
>>> On 2/16/2011 3:51 PM, Dick Veit wrote:
>>>
>>> If we would all try just a little harder, explain the past perfect just
>>> a
>>> little more clearly, try just one or two or fifty more times to get
>>> you-know-who to engage in productive dialogue, surely then he will see
>>> reason and all will be well and we can turn to other topics. We won't
>>> know
>>> if we don't try many, many, many more times, will we?
>>>
>>> Cheers,
>>> Dick
>>>
>>> On Wed, Feb 16, 2011 at 10:24 AM, Geoffrey Layton
>>> <[log in to unmask]>wrote:
>>>
>>>> :)
>>>>
>>>> Geoff Layton
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> ------------------------------
>>>> Date: Wed, 16 Feb 2011 08:45:46 -0500
>>>> From: [log in to unmask]
>>>> Subject: insanity
>>>> To: [log in to unmask]
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Insanity: doing the same thing over and over and expecting different
>>>> results.
>>>>
>>>
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>>
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>
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