The loss of /l/ after a low vowel goes back to Early Modern English. Notice no one hypercorrects "talk," "walk," or "chalk," but between a low back vowel and a nasal we do see the spelling pronunciation, as in "almond," "palm," "psalm," etc. Notice that it doesn't seem to happen with "salmon," which has a low front vowel. I think by now the spelling pronunciation has become standard.
I grew up, the son of a polyglot Lutheran pastor and a third grade teacher, without the spelling pronunciation. I can remember my mother telling me that some people pronounced the /l/ but it was really supposed to be silent. And yet I became a linguist.
Herb
-----Original Message-----
From: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar [mailto:[log in to unmask]] On Behalf Of Atchley, Clinton
Sent: 2008-12-15 10:56
To: [log in to unmask]
Subject: Re: ATEG Digest - 13 Dec 2008 to 14 Dec 2008 (#2008-265)
Hi, Scott,
I, too, say "for-rid," but I wonder how you pronounce that tasty nut
meat. Do you say "am-mend" or the spelling pronunciation "al-mond"? I
still use the original pronunciation occasionally just to be contrary
and to see if anyone will correct me, but I find that, when I do, my
students have no idea what I'm talking about. Does anyone know when/why
this pronunciation changed?
Just procrastinating when I should be grading term papers.
Clinton Atchley, Ph.D.
Associate Professor of English
Box 7652
1100 Henderson Street
Henderson State University
Arkadelphia, AR 71999
Phone: 870.230.5276
Email: [log in to unmask]
Web: http://www.hsu.edu/atchlec
-----Original Message-----
From: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar
[mailto:[log in to unmask]] On Behalf Of Scott
Sent: Monday, December 15, 2008 12:17 AM
To: [log in to unmask]
Subject: Re: ATEG Digest - 13 Dec 2008 to 14 Dec 2008 (#2008-265)
I admired him, fishing from a pier. Who or what did I admire? "him."
I admired his fishing from a pier. Who or what did I admire? "fishing."
Scott Catledge
I am pleased with my being labeled "conservative." I would not deny
my being labeled archconservative. I have never forgotten that
conservative
and conservation are close kin. I wish to conserve clear and precise
language. I do not see language as static: I cannot speak Anglo-Saxon
nor
do I need to unless I am teaching HEL. I had a director who was fond of
constantly reiterating that all progress is change. Regardless of the
physical or social context, I always reminded him out loud that all
change
is not progress. I often see a need for new words; I do not see the
need
for new pronunciations of words nor for new syntax.
My ex-wife always said /fore-head/.
I always responded:
There was a little girl and she had a little curl
Right in the middle of her /fore-head/
When she was good, she was very, very good.
When she was bad she was /hore-head/.
My kids quickly caught on to my pronunciation /for-rid/.
My grandchildren and my greatgrandchildren do not use my grammar and
syntax.
Why should they? Their teachers do not teach grammar--they know no
grammar
to teach. Moreover, it is politically incorrect to prefer one style
over
any other. If it can be spoken, it must be correct to that child's peer
group--and that it the only important guideline for language.
-----Original Message-----
From: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar
[mailto:[log in to unmask]] On Behalf Of ATEG automatic digest
system
Sent: Monday, December 15, 2008 12:00 AM
To: [log in to unmask]
Subject: ATEG Digest - 13 Dec 2008 to 14 Dec 2008 (#2008-265)
There are 13 messages totalling 4404 lines in this issue.
Topics of the day:
1. Clause or Phrase (5)
2. Conservatives!
3. Engaging in the grammar trenches (was: Conservatives!) (6)
4. scope and sequence: was clause or phrase
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----------------------------------------------------------------------
Date: Sat, 13 Dec 2008 23:34:50 -0800
From: Scott Woods <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Re: Clause or Phrase
--0-64264188-1229240090=:87409
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
=A0
Are these pairs basically synonymous to you and are they punctuated
correct=
ly?
=A0
The boy was very happy that his mother did not see him being such a pig.
The boy was very happy that his mother did not see him eating so
greedily.
The boy was very happy that his mother did not see him, being such a
pig.
The boy was very happy that his mother did not see him, being such a
duplic=
itous boy.
The boy was very happy that his mother did not see his being such a pig.
The boy was very happy that his mother did not see his bad behavior.
=A0
Scott Woods
=A0
--- On Fri, 12/12/08, DD Farms <[log in to unmask]> wrote:
From: DD Farms <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Re: Clause or Phrase
To: [log in to unmask]
Date: Friday, December 12, 2008, 11:30 PM
At 10:44 PM 12/12/2008, John Curran wrote:
> The boy was very happy that his mother did not see him being such a
pig.
. . .
DD: The analysis went off into what sort of clause followed, "that."=20
Arrgh. Shouldn't some attention have been placed on the use of
"him" instead of "his?" If the emphasis is on whom the
mother saw, then I will allow "him," but insist on a comma after. If
the emphasis is on what the mother saw, I suggest it was the action
followi=
ng a
possessive, "his." It is awkward in the first case, as that comma
might be interpreted to his mother's being the pig. Still, I think that
if
you allow less than high standard English to prevail, the possessive and
th=
e
gerund connection is ignored.
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=0A=0A=0A
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Content-Type: text/html; charset=us-ascii
<table cellspacing="0" cellpadding="0" border="0" ><tr><td valign="top"
style="font: inherit;"><DIV> </DIV>
<DIV>Are these pairs basically synonymous to you and are they punctuated
correctly?</DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV>The boy was very happy that his mother did not see him being such a
pig.</DIV>
<DIV>The boy was very happy that his mother did not see him eating so
greedily.<BR></DIV>
<DIV>The boy was very happy that his mother did not see him, being such
a
pig.</DIV>
<DIV>The boy was very happy that his mother did not see him, being such
a
duplicitous boy.<BR></DIV>
<DIV>The boy was very happy that his mother did not see his being such a
pig.</DIV>
<DIV>The boy was very happy that his mother did not see his bad
behavior.</DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV>Scott Woods</DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV><BR><BR><BR><BR><BR>--- On <B>Fri, 12/12/08, DD Farms
<I><[log in to unmask]></I></B> wrote:<BR></DIV>
<BLOCKQUOTE style="PADDING-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; BORDER-LEFT:
rgb(16,16,255) 2px solid">From: DD Farms
<[log in to unmask]><BR>Subject: Re: Clause or Phrase<BR>To:
[log in to unmask]<BR>Date: Friday, December 12, 2008, 11:30
PM<BR><BR><PRE>At 10:44 PM 12/12/2008, John Curran wrote:
> The boy was very happy that his mother did not see him being such a
pig.
. . .
DD: The analysis went off into what sort of clause followed, "that."
Arrgh. Shouldn't some attention have been placed on the use of
"him" instead of "his?" If the emphasis is on whom the
mother saw, then I will allow "him," but insist on a comma after. If
the emphasis is on what the mother saw, I suggest it was the action
following a
possessive, "his." It is awkward in the first case, as that comma
might be interpreted to his mother's being the pig. Still, I think that
if
you allow less than high standard English to prevail, the possessive and
the
gerund connection is ignored.
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</PRE></BLOCKQUOTE></td></tr></table><br>
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<p>
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--0-64264188-1229240090=:87409--
------------------------------
Date: Sun, 14 Dec 2008 09:20:24 -0500
From: Craig Hancock <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Re: Conservatives!
Bob,
I agree with some conservatives much more than I agree with others. I
don't like the views of grammar typical of "progressive" educators.
This sort of response doesn't help. I don't think "conservative" is a
bad name.
ATEG is a conservative organization. Most of the conversation on list
is
about whether something is "correct" or about how to classify something,
usually using structural or traditional grammar as the lens. If you are
interested in alternative approaches, as I am, you can feel somewhat
lonely. It's not just that people disagree with those views, but that
there's not the sort of robust discussion about them that there should
be on a grammar list. As groups go, it's a conservative group.
If that's the case, it would make sense that many people would wonder
why we need a scope and sequence. Don't they already exist? Isn't it a
matter of just getting endorsement for the gramamr that's already out
there?
I don't agree with that position, but I can respect it. I can also
try
to understand the nature of the difficulties involved in moving forward
with a scope and sequence throught ATEG.
1) NCTE is oppossed to it, and we are an NCTE subgroup.
2) Most people on ATEG adhere to perspectives on gramamr that are
already somewhat established (even if their teaching is not.) Frankly, I
think we would be much better off if we went back to the teaching of
grammar I was given growing up, but we don't necessarily have to do
that. A great deal has happened since the 1950's, much of it so much
more friendly to applications in reading and writing.
Craig>
What an interesting way of characterizing views of grammar that
disagree
> with your own!
>
> Craig writes:
>
> My own tendency has been to lobby for new ways of looking at grammar,
but
> ATEG has long been an organization made
> up of people with fairly conservative (not regressive, not by a long
> shot) views. This was hard on me because I felt I had a lot invested
in
> the project, but would be asked to shut out from the conversation the
> new possibilities in grammar that excite me the most.
>
> ****
> Of course, there is no hostility in characterizing others views with
the
> term "fairly conservative."
>
> Craig, I appreciate such an honest appraisal of others views of the
nature
> of language.
>
> Bob Yates, University of Central Missouri
>
> To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web
interface
> at:
> http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html
> and select "Join or leave the list"
>
> Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/
>
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------------------------------
Date: Sun, 14 Dec 2008 09:38:40 -0500
From: Craig Hancock <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Re: Clause or Phrase
Herb,
Nice analysis. Not sure why I missed it, especially since John asked
for a functional analysis, and this is something very clearly presented
in Halliday.
I like to use these kinds of pairings to show the distinction:
"I saw his slow landing on the river."
"I saw him landing/land slowly on the river."
"I watched his painful demise from cancer."
"I watched him dying/die painfully from cancer."
If,in fact, these participle structures (or infinitive
structures)often bear subjects (as seems true in the second sentence
of each pair), that's another argument for calling them clauses. The
only thing missing is the finite.
What we perceive is often a happening or process, so it makes sense
that we can construe it in that way.
As you say, finding and discovering verbs work a little differently.
Craig>
Why not a third analysis? "being" as a participle, as in "I found him
> fishing in the White River." ""See" allows all three constructions.
> "Find" does not. Other perception verbs allow the participial
> construction as well:
>
> I felt the breeze blowing on my back.
> I smelled the paper burning.
> I heard the sirens blaring as the fire trucks went by.
>
> Herb
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar
> [mailto:[log in to unmask]] On Behalf Of DD Farms
> Sent: 2008-12-13 01:31
> To: [log in to unmask]
> Subject: Re: Clause or Phrase
>
> At 10:44 PM 12/12/2008, John Curran wrote:
>>The boy was very happy that his mother did not see him being such a
pig.
> . . .
>
> DD: The analysis went off into what sort of clause followed,
> "that." Arrgh. Shouldn't some attention have been placed on the use
> of "him" instead of "his?" If the emphasis is on whom the mother saw,
> then I will allow "him," but insist on a comma after. If the emphasis
> is on what the mother saw, I suggest it was the action following a
> possessive, "his." It is awkward in the first case, as that comma
> might be interpreted to his mother's being the pig. Still, I think
> that if you allow less than high standard English to prevail, the
> possessive and the gerund connection is ignored.
>
> To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web
interface
> at:
> http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html
> and select "Join or leave the list"
>
> Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/
>
> To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web
interface
> at:
> http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html
> and select "Join or leave the list"
>
> Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/
>
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------------------------------
Date: Sun, 14 Dec 2008 08:28:03 -0800
From: "Paul E. Doniger" <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Re: Engaging in the grammar trenches (was: Conservatives!)
--0-35116534-1229272083=:41507
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
This reminds me of the rather curious observations I have had over the
past=
ten years or so: Most of my high school English teaching peers=A0have
comm=
ented on the lack of grammar teaching that their students have
experienced =
(or seem to have lacked the experience of). Yet few of them have the
time o=
r the interest=A0to=A0get involved in the conversation (indeed, may
don't s=
eem to know that the conversation even exists). I know that I have too
many=
other pulls on my time and interests to devote as much to these issues
as =
I would like -- and I've been more involved than most of my peers (my
long =
silences are due not to a lack of interest, but to a lack of time). And
wit=
h the work load for teachers increasing as it seems to be doing, it
doesn't=
look like this will change at any time soon.=0A=A0=0AAlso, I think most
uf=
us at the secondary level seem to believe (and perhaps rightly) that
the i=
ssues of grammar (which they see as one of error correction mostly)
should =
have been dealt with in elementary and middle school. I believe that
unless=
elementary and middle school teachers are recruited more dynamically
into =
this conversation, change can't happen.=0A=A0=0AWhat are your thoughts &
ex=
periences? =0A=A0=0APaul D.=0A=0A=A0"If this were play'd upon a stage
now, =
I could condemn it as an improbable fiction" (_Twelfth Night_
3.4.127-128).=
=0A=0A=0A=0A=0A________________________________=0AFrom: Craig Hancock
<han=
[log in to unmask]>=0ATo: [log in to unmask]: Sunday, December
14=
, 2008 9:20:24 AM=0ASubject: Re: Conservatives!=0A=0ABob,=0A=A0 I agree
wit=
h some conservatives much more than I agree with others. I=0Adon't like
the=
views of grammar typical of "progressive" educators.=0AThis sort of
respon=
se doesn't help. I don't think "conservative" is a=0Abad name.=0A=A0
ATEG i=
s a conservative organization. Most of the conversation on list
is=0Aabout =
whether something is "correct" or about how to classify
something,=0Ausuall=
y using structural or traditional grammar as the lens. If you
are=0Ainteres=
ted in alternative approaches, as I am, you can feel somewhat=0Alonely.
It'=
s not just that people disagree with those views, but that=0Athere's not
th=
e sort of robust discussion about them that there should=0Abe on a
grammar =
list. As groups go, it's a conservative group.=0A=A0 If that's the case,
it=
would make sense that many people would wonder=0Awhy we need a scope
and s=
equence. Don't they already exist? Isn't it a=0Amatter of just getting
endo=
rsement for the gramamr that's already out=0Athere?=0A=A0 I don't agree
wit=
h that position, but I can respect it. I can also try=0Ato understand
the n=
ature of the difficulties involved in moving forward=0Awith a scope and
seq=
uence throught ATEG.=0A=A0 1) NCTE is oppossed to it, and we are an NCTE
su=
bgroup.=0A=A0 2) Most people on ATEG adhere to perspectives on gramamr
that=
are=0Aalready somewhat established (even if their teaching is not.)
Frankl=
y, I=0Athink we would be much better off if we went back to the teaching
of=
=0Agrammar I was given growing up, but we don't necessarily have to
do=0Ath=
at. A great deal has happened since the 1950's, much of it so
much=0Amore f=
riendly to applications in reading and writing.=0A=0ACraig>=0A=0AWhat
an=A0=
interesting way of characterizing views of grammar that disagree=0A>
with =
your own!=0A>=0A> Craig writes:=0A>=0A> My own tendency has been to
lobby f=
or new=A0 ways of looking at grammar, but=0A> ATEG has long been an
organiz=
ation made=0A> up of people with fairly conservative (not regressive,
not b=
y a long=0A> shot) views.=A0 This was hard on me because I felt I had a
lot=
invested in=0A> the project, but would be asked to shut out from the
conve=
rsation the=0A> new possibilities in grammar that excite me the
most.=0A>=
=0A> ****=0A> Of course, there is no hostility in characterizing others
vie=
ws with the=0A> term "fairly conservative."=0A>=0A> Craig, I appreciate
suc=
h an honest appraisal of others views of the nature=0A> of
language.=0A>=0A=
> Bob Yates, University of Central Missouri=0A>=0A> To join or leave
this L=
ISTSERV list, please visit the list's web interface=0A> at:=0A>=A0 =A0
=A0 =
http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html=0A> and select "Join or
leave=
the list"=0A>=0A> Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/=0A>=0A=0ATo
jo=
in or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web interface
at:=
=0A=A0 =A0 http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html=0Aand select
"Join=
or leave the list"=0A=0AVisit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/=0A
To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web
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Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/
--0-35116534-1229272083=:41507
Content-Type: text/html; charset=us-ascii
<html><head><style type="text/css"><!-- DIV {margin:0px;}
--></style></head><body><div style="font-family:bookman old style, new
york,
times, serif;font-size:12pt"><DIV></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Verdana>This reminds me of the rather curious
observations I
have had over the past ten years or so: Most of my high school English
teaching peers have commented on the lack of grammar teaching that
their students have experienced (or seem to have lacked the experience
of).
Yet few of them have the time or the interest to get involved
in
the conversation (indeed, may don't seem to know that the conversation
even
exists). I know that I have too many other pulls on my time and
interests to
devote as much to these issues as I would like -- and I've been more
involved than most of my peers (my long silences are due not to a lack
of
interest, but to a lack of time). And with the work load for teachers
increasing as it seems to be doing, it doesn't look like this will
change at
any time soon.</FONT></DIV>
<P><FONT face=Verdana></FONT> </P>
<P><FONT face=Verdana>Also, I think most uf us at the secondary level
seem
to believe (and perhaps rightly) that the issues of grammar (which they
see
as one of error correction mostly) should have been dealt with in
elementary
and middle school. I believe that unless elementary and middle school
teachers are recruited more dynamically into this conversation, change
can't
happen.</FONT></P>
<P><FONT face=Verdana></FONT> </P>
<P><FONT face=Verdana>What are your thoughts & experiences?
</FONT></P>
<P><FONT face=Verdana></FONT> </P>
<P><FONT face=Verdana>Paul D.</FONT></P>
<DIV><BR> </DIV><FONT size=2>"If this were play'd upon a stage now,
I
could condemn it as an improbable fiction" (_Twelfth Night_
3.4.127-128).</FONT>
<DIV><BR></DIV>
<DIV style="FONT-SIZE: 12pt; FONT-FAMILY: bookman old style, new york,
times, serif"><BR>
<DIV style="FONT-SIZE: 12pt; FONT-FAMILY: bookman old style, new york,
times, serif"><FONT face=Tahoma size=2>
<HR SIZE=1>
<B><SPAN style="FONT-WEIGHT: bold">From:</SPAN></B> Craig Hancock
<[log in to unmask]><BR><B><SPAN style="FONT-WEIGHT:
bold">To:</SPAN></B> [log in to unmask]<BR><B><SPAN
style="FONT-WEIGHT: bold">Sent:</SPAN></B> Sunday, December 14, 2008
9:20:24
AM<BR><B><SPAN style="FONT-WEIGHT: bold">Subject:</SPAN></B> Re:
Conservatives!<BR></FONT><BR>Bob,<BR> I agree with some
conservatives
much more than I agree with others. I<BR>don't like the views of grammar
typical of "progressive" educators.<BR>This sort of response doesn't
help. I
don't think "conservative" is a<BR>bad name.<BR> ATEG is a
conservative organization. Most of the conversation on list is<BR>about
whether something is "correct" or about how to classify
something,<BR>usually using structural or traditional grammar as the
lens.
If you are<BR>interested in alternative approaches, as I am, you can
feel
somewhat<BR>lonely. It's not just that people disagree with those views,
but that<BR>there's not the sort of robust discussion about them that
there
should<BR>be on a grammar list. As groups go, it's a conservative
group.<BR> If that's the case, it would make sense that many
people
would wonder<BR>why we need a scope and sequence. Don't they already
exist?
Isn't it a<BR>matter of just getting endorsement for the gramamr that's
already out<BR>there?<BR> I don't agree with that position, but I
can
respect it. I can also try<BR>to understand the nature of the
difficulties
involved in moving forward<BR>with a scope and sequence throught
ATEG.<BR> 1) NCTE is oppossed to it, and we are an NCTE
subgroup.<BR> 2) Most people on ATEG adhere to perspectives on
gramamr
that are<BR>already somewhat established (even if their teaching is
not.)
Frankly, I<BR>think we would be much better off if we went back to the
teaching of<BR>grammar I was given growing up, but we don't necessarily
have
to do<BR>that. A great
deal has happened since the 1950's, much of it so much<BR>more friendly
to
applications in reading and writing.<BR><BR>Craig><BR><BR>What
an
interesting way of characterizing views of grammar that disagree<BR>>
with your own!<BR>><BR>> Craig writes:<BR>><BR>> My own
tendency
has been to lobby for new ways of looking at grammar, but<BR>>
ATEG
has long been an organization made<BR>> up of people with fairly
conservative (not regressive, not by a long<BR>> shot) views.
This
was hard on me because I felt I had a lot invested in<BR>> the
project,
but would be asked to shut out from the conversation the<BR>> new
possibilities in grammar that excite me the most.<BR>><BR>>
****<BR>> Of course, there is no hostility in characterizing others
views
with the<BR>> term "fairly conservative."<BR>><BR>> Craig, I
appreciate such an honest appraisal of others views of the
nature<BR>> of
language.<BR>><BR>> Bob Yates, University of Central
Missouri<BR>><BR>> To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please
visit
the list's web interface<BR>> at:<BR>> <A
href="http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html"
target=_blank>http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html</A><BR>>
and
select "Join or leave the list"<BR>><BR>> Visit ATEG's web site at
<A
href="http://ateg.org/"
target=_blank>http://ateg.org/</A><BR>><BR><BR>To
join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web interface
at:<BR> <A
href="http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html"
target=_blank>http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html</A><BR>and
select "Join or leave the list"<BR><BR>Visit ATEG's web site at <A
href="http://ateg.org/"
target=_blank>http://ateg.org/</A><BR></DIV></DIV></div></body></html>
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--0-35116534-1229272083=:41507--
------------------------------
Date: Sun, 14 Dec 2008 11:58:43 -0600
From: Geoffrey Layton <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Re: Engaging in the grammar trenches (was: Conservatives!)
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From the situation you describe I think has arisen the "grammar in
context"=
crowd=2C which as Martha has pointed out is dedicated to teaching the
same=
old grammar rules=2C but with a new and more "politically correct" name
- =
i.e.=2C one that seems to respond to the NCTE injunction against grammar
in=
struction. The problem as I see it is not so much that students don't
know=
their adverbials from their adjectivals=2C but that they don't know how
to=
use the basic structure/grammar of the language to create the meaning
that=
they for the most part are capable of. I think this goes back to the
prev=
ious discussion where Bob brought up the structural deficiencies of
basic w=
riters and how we as writing teachers have such great difficulties
dealing =
with these problems.Geoff Layton
Date: Sun=2C 14 Dec 2008 08:28:03 -0800From: [log in to unmask]:
Re: =
Engaging in the grammar trenches (was: Conservatives!)To:
[log in to unmask]
HIO.EDU
This reminds me of the rather curious observations I have had over the
past=
ten years or so: Most of my high school English teaching peers have
commen=
ted on the lack of grammar teaching that their students have experienced
(o=
r seem to have lacked the experience of). Yet few of them have the time
or =
the interest to get involved in the conversation (indeed=2C may don't
seem =
to know that the conversation even exists). I know that I have too many
oth=
er pulls on my time and interests to devote as much to these issues as I
wo=
uld like -- and I've been more involved than most of my peers (my long
sile=
nces are due not to a lack of interest=2C but to a lack of time). And
with =
the work load for teachers increasing as it seems to be doing=2C it
doesn't=
look like this will change at any time soon.
=20
Also=2C I think most uf us at the secondary level seem to believe (and
perh=
aps rightly) that the issues of grammar (which they see as one of error
cor=
rection mostly) should have been dealt with in elementary and middle
school=
. I believe that unless elementary and middle school teachers are
recruited=
more dynamically into this conversation=2C change can't happen.
=20
What are your thoughts & experiences?=20
=20
Paul D.
"If this were play'd upon a stage now=2C I could condemn it as an
improbab=
le fiction" (_Twelfth Night_ 3.4.127-128).=20
From: Craig Hancock <[log in to unmask]>To:
[log in to unmask]: S=
unday=2C December 14=2C 2008 9:20:24 AMSubject: Re: Conservatives!Bob=2C
I=
agree with some conservatives much more than I agree with others.
Idon't l=
ike the views of grammar typical of "progressive" educators.This sort of
re=
sponse doesn't help. I don't think "conservative" is abad name. ATEG is
a =
conservative organization. Most of the conversation on list isabout
whether=
something is "correct" or about how to classify something=2Cusually
using =
structural or traditional grammar as the lens. If you areinterested in
alte=
rnative approaches=2C as I am=2C you can feel somewhatlonely. It's not
just=
that people disagree with those views=2C but thatthere's not the sort
of r=
obust discussion about them that there shouldbe on a grammar list. As
group=
s go=2C it's a conservative group. If that's the case=2C it would make
sen=
se that many people would wonderwhy we need a scope and sequence. Don't
the=
y already exist? Isn't it amatter of just getting endorsement for the
grama=
mr that's already outthere? I don't agree with that position=2C but I
can =
respect it. I can also tryto understand the nature of the difficulties
invo=
lved in moving forwardwith a scope and sequence throught ATEG. 1) NCTE
is =
oppossed to it=2C and we are an NCTE subgroup. 2) Most people on ATEG
adhe=
re to perspectives on gramamr that arealready somewhat established (even
if=
their teaching is not.) Frankly=2C Ithink we would be much better off
if w=
e went back to the teaching ofgrammar I was given growing up=2C but we
don'=
t necessarily have to dothat. A great deal has happened since the
1950's=2C=
much of it so muchmore friendly to applications in reading and
writing.Cra=
ig>What an interesting way of characterizing views of grammar that
disagre=
e> with your own!>> Craig writes:>> My own tendency has been to lobby
for n=
ew ways of looking at grammar=2C but> ATEG has long been an
organization m=
ade> up of people with fairly conservative (not regressive=2C not by a
long=
> shot) views. This was hard on me because I felt I had a lot invested
in>=
the project=2C but would be asked to shut out from the conversation
the> n=
ew possibilities in grammar that excite me the most.>> ****> Of
course=2C t=
here is no hostility in characterizing others views with the> term
"fairly =
conservative.">> Craig=2C I appreciate such an honest appraisal of
others v=
iews of the nature> of language.>> Bob Yates=2C University of Central
Misso=
uri>> To join or leave this LISTSERV list=2C please visit the list's web
in=
terface> at:> http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html> and
selec=
t "Join or leave the list">> Visit ATEG's web site at
http://ateg.org/>To j=
oin or leave this LISTSERV list=2C please visit the list's web interface
at=
: http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.htmland select "Join or
leave=
the list"Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/To join or leave this
LI=
STSERV list=2C please visit the list's web interface at:
http://listserv.mu=
ohio.edu/archives/ateg.html and select "Join or leave the list"=20
Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/
_________________________________________________________________
Send e-mail faster without improving your typing skills.
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From the situation you describe I think has arisen the "grammar in
context"=
crowd=2C which as Martha has pointed out is dedicated to teaching the
same=
old grammar rules=2C but with a new and more "politically correct" name
- =
i.e.=2C one that seems to respond to the NCTE injunction against grammar
in=
struction. =3B The problem as I see it is not so much that students
don=
't know their adverbials from their adjectivals=2C but that they don't
know=
how to use the basic structure/grammar of the language to create the
meani=
ng that they for the most part are capable of. =3B I think this goes
ba=
ck to the previous discussion where Bob brought up the structural
deficienc=
ies of basic writers and how we as writing teachers have such great
difficu=
lties dealing with these problems.<BR><BR>Geoff Layton<BR><BR><BR><BR>
<HR id=3DstopSpelling>
Date: Sun=2C 14 Dec 2008 08:28:03 -0800<BR>From:
[log in to unmask]<BR>Subje=
ct: Re: Engaging in the grammar trenches (was: Conservatives!)<BR>To:
ATEG@=
LISTSERV.MUOHIO.EDU<BR><BR>
<STYLE>
.ExternalClass DIV
{=3B}
</STYLE>
<DIV style=3D"FONT-SIZE: 12pt=3B FONT-FAMILY: bookman old style=2C new
york=
=2C times=2C serif">
<DIV></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DVerdana>This reminds me of the rather curious
observation=
s I have had over the past ten years or so: Most of my high school
English =
teaching peers =3Bhave commented on the lack of grammar teaching
that t=
heir students have experienced (or seem to have lacked the experience
of). =
Yet few of them have the time or the interest =3Bto =3Bget
involved=
in the conversation (indeed=2C may don't seem to know that the
conversatio=
n even exists). I know that I have too many other pulls on my time and
inte=
rests to devote as much to these issues as I would like -- and I've been
mo=
re involved than most of my peers (my long silences are due not to a
lack o=
f interest=2C but to a lack of time). And with the work load for
teachers i=
ncreasing as it seems to be doing=2C it doesn't look like this will
change =
at any time soon.</FONT></DIV>
<FONT face=3DVerdana></FONT> =3B<BR>
<FONT face=3DVerdana>Also=2C I think most uf us at the secondary level
seem=
to believe (and perhaps rightly) that the issues of grammar (which they
se=
e as one of error correction mostly) should have been dealt with in
element=
ary and middle school. I believe that unless elementary and middle
school t=
eachers are recruited more dynamically into this conversation=2C change
can=
't happen.</FONT><BR>
<FONT face=3DVerdana></FONT> =3B<BR>
<FONT face=3DVerdana>What are your thoughts &=3B experiences?
</FONT><BR=
>
<FONT face=3DVerdana></FONT> =3B<BR>
<FONT face=3DVerdana>Paul D.</FONT><BR>
<DIV><BR> =3B</DIV><FONT size=3D2>"If this were play'd upon a stage
now=
=2C I could condemn it as an improbable fiction" (_Twelfth Night_
3.4.127-1=
28).</FONT>=20
<DIV><BR></DIV>
<DIV style=3D"FONT-SIZE: 12pt=3B FONT-FAMILY: bookman old style=2C new
york=
=2C times=2C serif"><BR>
<DIV style=3D"FONT-SIZE: 12pt=3B FONT-FAMILY: bookman old style=2C new
york=
=2C times=2C serif"><FONT face=3DTahoma size=3D2>
<HR SIZE=3D1>
<B><SPAN style=3D"FONT-WEIGHT: bold">From:</SPAN></B> Craig Hancock
<=3Bh=
[log in to unmask]>=3B<BR><B><SPAN style=3D"FONT-WEIGHT:
bold">To:</SPAN><=
/B> [log in to unmask]<BR><B><SPAN style=3D"FONT-WEIGHT:
bold">Sent:<=
/SPAN></B> Sunday=2C December 14=2C 2008 9:20:24 AM<BR><B><SPAN
style=3D"FO=
NT-WEIGHT: bold">Subject:</SPAN></B> Re:
Conservatives!<BR></FONT><BR>Bob=
=2C<BR> =3B I agree with some conservatives much more than I agree
with=
others. I<BR>don't like the views of grammar typical of "progressive"
educ=
ators.<BR>This sort of response doesn't help. I don't think
"conservative" =
is a<BR>bad name.<BR> =3B ATEG is a conservative organization. Most
of =
the conversation on list is<BR>about whether something is "correct" or
abou=
t how to classify something=2C<BR>usually using structural or
traditional g=
rammar as the lens. If you are<BR>interested in alternative
approaches=2C a=
s I am=2C you can feel somewhat<BR>lonely. It's not just that people
disagr=
ee with those views=2C but that<BR>there's not the sort of robust
discussio=
n about them that there should<BR>be on a grammar list. As groups go=2C
it'=
s a conservative group.<BR> =3B If that's the case=2C it would make
sen=
se that many people would wonder<BR>why we need a scope and sequence.
Don't=
they already exist? Isn't it a<BR>matter of just getting endorsement
for t=
he gramamr that's already out<BR>there?<BR> =3B I don't agree with
that=
position=2C but I can respect it. I can also try<BR>to understand the
natu=
re of the difficulties involved in moving forward<BR>with a scope and
seque=
nce throught ATEG.<BR> =3B 1) NCTE is oppossed to it=2C and we are
an N=
CTE subgroup.<BR> =3B 2) Most people on ATEG adhere to perspectives
on =
gramamr that are<BR>already somewhat established (even if their teaching
is=
not.) Frankly=2C I<BR>think we would be much better off if we went back
to=
the teaching of<BR>grammar I was given growing up=2C but we don't
necessar=
ily have to do<BR>that. A great deal has happened since the 1950's=2C
much =
of it so much<BR>more friendly to applications in reading and
writing.<BR><=
BR>Craig>=3B<BR><BR>What an =3B interesting way of characterizing
vie=
ws of grammar that disagree<BR>>=3B with your own!<BR>>=3B<BR>>=3B
Cr=
aig writes:<BR>>=3B<BR>>=3B My own tendency has been to lobby for
new&n=
bsp=3B ways of looking at grammar=2C but<BR>>=3B ATEG has long been an
or=
ganization made<BR>>=3B up of people with fairly conservative (not
regres=
sive=2C not by a long<BR>>=3B shot) views. =3B This was hard on me
be=
cause I felt I had a lot invested in<BR>>=3B the project=2C but would
be =
asked to shut out from the conversation the<BR>>=3B new possibilities
in =
grammar that excite me the most.<BR>>=3B<BR>>=3B ****<BR>>=3B Of
cour=
se=2C there is no hostility in characterizing others views with
the<BR>>=
=3B term "fairly conservative."<BR>>=3B<BR>>=3B Craig=2C I
appreciate s=
uch an honest appraisal of others views of the nature<BR>>=3B of
language=
.<BR>>=3B<BR>>=3B Bob Yates=2C University of Central
Missouri<BR>>=3B=
<BR>>=3B To join or leave this LISTSERV list=2C please visit the
list's w=
eb interface<BR>>=3B at:<BR>>=3B =3B  =3B  =3B <A
href=3D"h=
ttp://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html">http://listserv.muohio.edu
/ar=
chives/ateg.html</A><BR>>=3B and select "Join or leave the
list"<BR>>=
=3B<BR>>=3B Visit ATEG's web site at <A
href=3D"http://ateg.org/">http://=
ateg.org/</A><BR>>=3B<BR><BR>To join or leave this LISTSERV list=2C
pleas=
e visit the list's web interface at:<BR> =3B  =3B <A
href=3D"http:/=
/listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html">http://listserv.muohio.edu/arch
ive=
s/ateg.html</A><BR>and select "Join or leave the list"<BR><BR>Visit
ATEG's =
web site at <A
href=3D"http://ateg.org/">http://ateg.org/</A><BR></DIV></DI=
V></DIV>To join or leave this LISTSERV list=2C please visit the list's
web =
interface at: http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html and select
"Joi=
n or leave the list"=20
Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/<BR><br /><hr />Send e-mail
faster=
without improving your typing skills. <a
href=3D'http://windowslive.com/Ex=
plore/hotmail?ocid=3DTXT_TAGLM_WL_hotmail_acq_speed_122008'
target=3D'_new'=
>Get your Hotmail=AE account.</a></body>
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<p>
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------------------------------
Date: Sun, 14 Dec 2008 13:03:59 -0500
From: "Veit, Richard" <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Re: Clause or Phrase
This is a multi-part message in MIME format.
------_=_NextPart_001_01C95E16.56893943
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charset="us-ascii"
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Scott,
=20
The comma certainly makes all the difference in your first and third
sentences, which are certainly not synonymous:
=20
1. The boy was very happy that his mother did not see him being
such a pig.
2. The boy was very happy that his mother did not see him, being
such a pig.
=20
To me the following groupings are more or less synonymous (a with b and
c, d with e and f):
=20
a. The boy was very happy that his mother did not see him being
such a pig.
b. The boy was very happy that his mother did not see his being
such a pig. [a tad awkward for me]
c. The boy was very happy that his mother did not see him in the
act of being such a pig.
=20
d. The boy was very happy that his mother did not see him, being
such a pig.
e. The boy, being such a pig, was very happy that his mother did
not see him.
f. The boy was very happy that his mother did not see him, because
he was such a pig.
=20
Dick Veit
=20
________________________________
From: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar
[mailto:[log in to unmask]] On Behalf Of Scott Woods
Sent: Sunday, December 14, 2008 2:35 AM
To: [log in to unmask]
Subject: Re: Clause or Phrase
=20
Are these pairs basically synonymous to you and are they punctuated
correctly?
=20
The boy was very happy that his mother did not see him being such a pig.
The boy was very happy that his mother did not see him eating so
greedily.
The boy was very happy that his mother did not see him, being such a
pig.
The boy was very happy that his mother did not see him, being such a
duplicitous boy.
The boy was very happy that his mother did not see his being such a pig.
The boy was very happy that his mother did not see his bad behavior.
=20
Scott Woods
=20
To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web
interface
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<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D2 color=3Dnavy face=3DArial><span =
style=3D'font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy'>Scott,</span></font></p>
<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D2 color=3Dnavy face=3DArial><span =
style=3D'font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy'> </span></font></p>
<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D2 color=3Dnavy face=3DArial><span =
style=3D'font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy'>The comma certainly makes all the
difference in your first and third sentences, which are certainly =
<i><span
style=3D'font-style:italic'>not</span></i> synonymous:</span></font></p>
<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D2 color=3Dnavy face=3DArial><span =
style=3D'font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy'> </span></font></p>
<ol style=3D'margin-top:0in' start=3D1 type=3D1>
<li class=3DMsoNormal style=3D'color:navy'><font size=3D3 color=3Dblack
face=3D"Times New Roman"><span =
style=3D'font-size:12.0pt;color:windowtext'>The
boy was very happy that his mother did not see him being such a =
pig.</span></font></li>
<li class=3DMsoNormal style=3D'color:navy'><font size=3D3 color=3Dblack
face=3D"Times New Roman"><span =
style=3D'font-size:12.0pt;color:windowtext'>The
boy was very happy that his mother did not see him, being such a =
pig.</span></font></li>
</ol>
<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D2 color=3Dnavy face=3DArial><span =
style=3D'font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy'> </span></font></p>
<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D2 color=3Dnavy face=3DArial><span =
style=3D'font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy'>To me the following groupings are =
more or
less synonymous (a with b and c, d with e and f):</span></font></p>
<p class=3DMsoNormal style=3D'margin-left:.25in'><font size=3D3 =
face=3D"Times New Roman"><span
style=3D'font-size:12.0pt'> </span></font></p>
<ol style=3D'margin-top:0in' start=3D1 type=3Da>
<li class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D3 face=3D"Times New Roman"><span
style=3D'font-size:12.0pt'>The boy was very happy that his mother =
did not
see him being such a pig.</span></font></li>
<li class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D3 face=3D"Times New Roman"><span
style=3D'font-size:12.0pt'>The boy was very happy that his mother =
did not
see his being such a pig. </span></font><font size=3D2 =
color=3Dnavy
face=3DArial><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy'>[a
tad awkward for me]</span></font></li>
<li class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D3 face=3D"Times New Roman"><span
style=3D'font-size:12.0pt'>The boy was very happy that his mother =
did not
see him in the act of being such a pig.<br>
</span></font></li>
<li class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D3 face=3D"Times New Roman"><span
style=3D'font-size:12.0pt'>The boy was very happy that his mother =
did not
see him, being such a pig.</span></font></li>
<li class=3DMsoNormal style=3D'color:navy'><font size=3D3 color=3Dblack
face=3D"Times New Roman"><span =
style=3D'font-size:12.0pt;color:windowtext'>The
boy, being such a pig, was very happy that his mother did not see =
him.</span></font></li>
<li class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D3 face=3D"Times New Roman"><span
style=3D'font-size:12.0pt'>The boy was very happy that his mother =
did not
see him, because he was such a pig.</span></font></li>
</ol>
<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D2 color=3Dnavy face=3DArial><span =
style=3D'font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy'> </span></font></p>
<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D2 color=3Dnavy face=3DArial><span =
style=3D'font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy'>Dick Veit</span></font></p>
<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D2 color=3Dnavy face=3DArial><span =
style=3D'font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy'> </span></font></p>
<div>
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=
size=3D3
face=3D"Times New Roman"><span style=3D'font-size:12.0pt'>
<hr size=3D2 width=3D"100%" align=3Dcenter tabindex=3D-1>
</span></font></div>
<p class=3DMsoNormal><b><font size=3D2 face=3DTahoma><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;
font-family:Tahoma;font-weight:bold'>From:</span></font></b><font =
size=3D2
face=3DTahoma><span style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Tahoma'> =
Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar =
[mailto:[log in to unmask]] <b><span
style=3D'font-weight:bold'>On Behalf Of </span></b>Scott Woods<br>
<b><span style=3D'font-weight:bold'>Sent:</span></b> Sunday, December =
14, 2008
2:35 AM<br>
<b><span style=3D'font-weight:bold'>To:</span></b> =
[log in to unmask]<br>
<b><span style=3D'font-weight:bold'>Subject:</span></b> Re: Clause or =
Phrase</span></font></p>
</div>
<table class=3DMsoNormalTable border=3D0 cellspacing=3D0 =
cellpadding=3D0>
<tr>
<td valign=3Dtop style=3D'padding:0in 0in 0in 0in'>
<div>
<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D3 face=3D"Times New Roman"><span
style=3D'font-size:12.0pt'> </span></font></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D3 face=3D"Times New Roman"><span
style=3D'font-size:12.0pt'>Are these pairs basically synonymous to you
=
and are
they punctuated correctly?</span></font></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D3 face=3D"Times New Roman"><span
style=3D'font-size:12.0pt'> </span></font></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3DMsoNormal style=3D'margin-left:.5in'><font size=3D3
face=3D"Times New Roman"><span style=3D'font-size:12.0pt'>The boy was
=
very happy
that his mother did not see him being such a pig.</span></font></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3DMsoNormal style=3D'margin-left:.5in'><font size=3D3
face=3D"Times New Roman"><span style=3D'font-size:12.0pt'>The boy was
=
very happy
that his mother did not see him eating so greedily.</span></font></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3DMsoNormal style=3D'margin-left:.5in'><font size=3D3
face=3D"Times New Roman"><span style=3D'font-size:12.0pt'>The boy was
=
very happy
that his mother did not see him, being such a pig.</span></font></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3DMsoNormal style=3D'margin-left:.5in'><font size=3D3
face=3D"Times New Roman"><span style=3D'font-size:12.0pt'>The boy was
=
very happy
that his mother did not see him, being such a duplicitous =
boy.</span></font></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3DMsoNormal style=3D'margin-left:.5in'><font size=3D3
face=3D"Times New Roman"><span style=3D'font-size:12.0pt'>The boy was
=
very happy
that his mother did not see his being such a pig.</span></font></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3DMsoNormal style=3D'margin-left:.5in'><font size=3D3
face=3D"Times New Roman"><span style=3D'font-size:12.0pt'>The boy was
=
very happy
that his mother did not see his bad behavior.</span></font></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D3 face=3D"Times New Roman"><span
style=3D'font-size:12.0pt'> </span></font></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D3 face=3D"Times New Roman"><span
style=3D'font-size:12.0pt'>Scott Woods</span></font></p>
</div>
</td>
</tr>
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------_=_NextPart_001_01C95E16.56893943--
------------------------------
Date: Sun, 14 Dec 2008 13:05:46 -0500
From: "STAHLKE, HERBERT F" <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Re: Clause or Phrase
--_000_0DDF38BA66ECD847B39F1FD4C801D5431163F8F070EMAILBACKEND0_
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Who's "such a pig" in (2)?
Herb
From: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar
[mailto:[log in to unmask]
OHIO.EDU] On Behalf Of Veit, Richard
Sent: 2008-12-14 13:04
To: [log in to unmask]
Subject: Re: Clause or Phrase
Scott,
The comma certainly makes all the difference in your first and third
senten=
ces, which are certainly not synonymous:
1. The boy was very happy that his mother did not see him being such a
pi=
g.
2. The boy was very happy that his mother did not see him, being such
a p=
ig.
To me the following groupings are more or less synonymous (a with b and
c, =
d with e and f):
1. The boy was very happy that his mother did not see him being such a
pi=
g.
2. The boy was very happy that his mother did not see his being such a
pi=
g. [a tad awkward for me]
3. The boy was very happy that his mother did not see him in the act
of b=
eing such a pig.
4. The boy was very happy that his mother did not see him, being such
a p=
ig.
5. The boy, being such a pig, was very happy that his mother did not
see =
him.
6. The boy was very happy that his mother did not see him, because he
was=
such a pig.
Dick Veit
________________________________
From: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar
[mailto:[log in to unmask]
OHIO.EDU] On Behalf Of Scott Woods
Sent: Sunday, December 14, 2008 2:35 AM
To: [log in to unmask]
Subject: Re: Clause or Phrase
Are these pairs basically synonymous to you and are they punctuated
correct=
ly?
The boy was very happy that his mother did not see him being such a pig.
The boy was very happy that his mother did not see him eating so
greedily.
The boy was very happy that his mother did not see him, being such a
pig.
The boy was very happy that his mother did not see him, being such a
duplic=
itous boy.
The boy was very happy that his mother did not see his being such a pig.
The boy was very happy that his mother did not see his bad behavior.
Scott Woods
To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web
interface =
at: http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html and select "Join or
leave=
the list"
Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/
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<div class=3DSection1>
<p class=3DMsoNormal><span
style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",=
"sans-serif";
color:#1F497D'>Who’s “such a pig” in
(2)?<o:p></o:p></spa=
n></p>
<p class=3DMsoNormal><span
style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",=
"sans-serif";
color:#1F497D'><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class=3DMsoNormal><span
style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",=
"sans-serif";
color:#1F497D'>Herb<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3DMsoNormal><span
style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",=
"sans-serif";
color:#1F497D'><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<div>
<div style=3D'border:none;border-top:solid #B5C4DF 1.0pt;padding:3.0pt
0in =
0in 0in'>
<p class=3DMsoNormal><b><span
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma=
","sans-serif"'>From:</span></b><span
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"'> Assembly
for =
the
Teaching of English Grammar [mailto:[log in to unmask]] <b>On
Behalf =
Of </b>Veit,
Richard<br>
<b>Sent:</b> 2008-12-14 13:04<br>
<b>To:</b> [log in to unmask]<br>
<b>Subject:</b> Re: Clause or Phrase<o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
</div>
<p class=3DMsoNormal><o:p> </o:p></p>
<p class=3DMsoNormal><span
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","s=
ans-serif";
color:navy'>Scott,</span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3DMsoNormal><span
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","s=
ans-serif";
color:navy'> </span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3DMsoNormal><span
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","s=
ans-serif";
color:navy'>The comma certainly makes all the difference in your first
and
third sentences, which are certainly <i>not</i>
synonymous:</span><o:p></o:=
p></p>
<p class=3DMsoNormal><span
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","s=
ans-serif";
color:navy'> </span><o:p></o:p></p>
<ol style=3D'margin-top:0in' start=3D1 type=3D1>
<li class=3DMsoNormal style=3D'color:navy;mso-list:l0 level1
lfo1'><span
style=3D'color:windowtext'>The boy was very happy that his mother
did =
not
see him being such a pig.</span><o:p></o:p></li>
<li class=3DMsoNormal style=3D'color:navy;mso-list:l0 level1
lfo1'><span
style=3D'color:windowtext'>The boy was very happy that his mother
did =
not
see him, being such a pig.</span><o:p></o:p></li>
</ol>
<p class=3DMsoNormal><span
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","s=
ans-serif";
color:navy'> </span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3DMsoNormal><span
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","s=
ans-serif";
color:navy'>To me the following groupings are more or less synonymous (a
wi=
th b
and c, d with e and f):</span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3DMsoNormal style=3D'margin-left:.25in'> <o:p></o:p></p>
<ol style=3D'margin-top:0in' start=3D1 type=3Da>
<li class=3DMsoNormal style=3D'mso-list:l1 level1 lfo2'>The boy was
very h=
appy
that his mother did not see him being such a pig.<o:p></o:p></li>
<li class=3DMsoNormal style=3D'mso-list:l1 level1 lfo2'>The boy was
very h=
appy
that his mother did not see his being such a pig. <span
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";color:navy'=
>[a
tad awkward for me]</span><o:p></o:p></li>
<li class=3DMsoNormal style=3D'mso-list:l1 level1 lfo2'>The boy was
very h=
appy
that his mother did not see him in the act of being such a pig.<br>
<o:p></o:p></li>
<li class=3DMsoNormal style=3D'mso-list:l1 level1 lfo2'>The boy was
very h=
appy
that his mother did not see him, being such a pig.<o:p></o:p></li>
<li class=3DMsoNormal style=3D'color:navy;mso-list:l1 level1
lfo2'><span
style=3D'color:windowtext'>The boy, being such a pig, was very
happy t=
hat
his mother did not see him.</span><o:p></o:p></li>
<li class=3DMsoNormal style=3D'mso-list:l1 level1 lfo2'>The boy was
very h=
appy
that his mother did not see him, because he was such a
pig.<o:p></o:p>=
</li>
</ol>
<p class=3DMsoNormal><span
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","s=
ans-serif";
color:navy'> </span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3DMsoNormal><span
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","s=
ans-serif";
color:navy'>Dick Veit</span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3DMsoNormal><span
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","s=
ans-serif";
color:navy'> </span><o:p></o:p></p>
<div>
<div class=3DMsoNormal align=3Dcenter style=3D'text-align:center'>
<hr size=3D2 width=3D"100%" align=3Dcenter>
</div>
<p class=3DMsoNormal><b><span
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma=
","sans-serif"'>From:</span></b><span
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"'> Assembly
for =
the
Teaching of English Grammar [mailto:[log in to unmask]] <b>On
Behalf =
Of </b>Scott
Woods<br>
<b>Sent:</b> Sunday, December 14, 2008 2:35 AM<br>
<b>To:</b> [log in to unmask]<br>
<b>Subject:</b> Re: Clause or Phrase</span><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<table class=3DMsoNormalTable border=3D0 cellspacing=3D0
cellpadding=3D0>
<tr>
<td valign=3Dtop style=3D'padding:0in 0in 0in 0in'>
<div>
<p class=3DMsoNormal> <o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3DMsoNormal>Are these pairs basically synonymous to you and
are =
they
punctuated correctly?<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3DMsoNormal> <o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3DMsoNormal style=3D'margin-left:.5in'>The boy was very happy
th=
at his
mother did not see him being such a pig.<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3DMsoNormal style=3D'margin-left:.5in'>The boy was very happy
th=
at his
mother did not see him eating so greedily.<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3DMsoNormal style=3D'margin-left:.5in'>The boy was very happy
th=
at his
mother did not see him, being such a pig.<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3DMsoNormal style=3D'margin-left:.5in'>The boy was very happy
th=
at his
mother did not see him, being such a duplicitous boy.<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3DMsoNormal style=3D'margin-left:.5in'>The boy was very happy
th=
at his
mother did not see his being such a pig.<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3DMsoNormal style=3D'margin-left:.5in'>The boy was very happy
th=
at his
mother did not see his bad behavior.<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3DMsoNormal> <o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3DMsoNormal>Scott Woods<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
</td>
</tr>
</table>
<p> <o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3DMsoNormal>To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit
the =
list's
web interface at: http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html and
select
"Join or leave the list" <o:p></o:p></p>
<p>Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/ <o:p></o:p></p>
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--_000_0DDF38BA66ECD847B39F1FD4C801D5431163F8F070EMAILBACKEND0_--
------------------------------
Date: Sun, 14 Dec 2008 14:13:33 -0500
From: "Veit, Richard" <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Re: Clause or Phrase
This is a multi-part message in MIME format.
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Ambiguous to be sure, but I was considering the reading where the boy is
the pig.
=20
________________________________
From: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar
[mailto:[log in to unmask]] On Behalf Of STAHLKE, HERBERT F
Sent: Sunday, December 14, 2008 1:06 PM
To: [log in to unmask]
Subject: Re: Clause or Phrase
=20
Who's "such a pig" in (2)?
=20
Herb
=20
From: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar
[mailto:[log in to unmask]] On Behalf Of Veit, Richard
Sent: 2008-12-14 13:04
To: [log in to unmask]
Subject: Re: Clause or Phrase
=20
Scott,
=20
The comma certainly makes all the difference in your first and third
sentences, which are certainly not synonymous:
=20
1. The boy was very happy that his mother did not see him being
such a pig.
2. The boy was very happy that his mother did not see him, being
such a pig.
=20
To me the following groupings are more or less synonymous (a with b and
c, d with e and f):
=20
a. The boy was very happy that his mother did not see him being
such a pig.
b. The boy was very happy that his mother did not see his being
such a pig. [a tad awkward for me]
c. The boy was very happy that his mother did not see him in the
act of being such a pig.
=20
d. The boy was very happy that his mother did not see him, being
such a pig.
e. The boy, being such a pig, was very happy that his mother did
not see him.
f. The boy was very happy that his mother did not see him, because
he was such a pig.
=20
Dick Veit
=20
________________________________
From: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar
[mailto:[log in to unmask]] On Behalf Of Scott Woods
Sent: Sunday, December 14, 2008 2:35 AM
To: [log in to unmask]
Subject: Re: Clause or Phrase
=20
Are these pairs basically synonymous to you and are they punctuated
correctly?
=20
The boy was very happy that his mother did not see him being such a pig.
The boy was very happy that his mother did not see him eating so
greedily.
The boy was very happy that his mother did not see him, being such a
pig.
The boy was very happy that his mother did not see him, being such a
duplicitous boy.
The boy was very happy that his mother did not see his being such a pig.
The boy was very happy that his mother did not see his bad behavior.
=20
Scott Woods
=20
To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web
interface at: http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html and select
"Join or leave the list"=20
Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/=20
To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web
interface at: http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html and select
"Join or leave the list"=20
Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/
To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web
interface
at:
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and select "Join or leave the list"
Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/
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<div class=3DSection1>
<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D2 color=3Dnavy face=3DArial><span =
style=3D'font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy'>Ambiguous to be sure, but I was =
considering
the reading where the boy is the pig.</span></font></p>
<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D2 color=3Dnavy face=3DArial><span =
style=3D'font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy'> </span></font></p>
<div>
<div class=3DMsoNormal align=3Dcenter style=3D'text-align:center'><font
=
size=3D3
face=3D"Times New Roman"><span style=3D'font-size:12.0pt'>
<hr size=3D2 width=3D"100%" align=3Dcenter tabindex=3D-1>
</span></font></div>
<p class=3DMsoNormal><b><font size=3D2 face=3DTahoma><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;
font-family:Tahoma;font-weight:bold'>From:</span></font></b><font =
size=3D2
face=3DTahoma><span style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Tahoma'> =
Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar =
[mailto:[log in to unmask]] <b><span
style=3D'font-weight:bold'>On Behalf Of </span></b>STAHLKE, HERBERT =
F<br>
<b><span style=3D'font-weight:bold'>Sent:</span></b> Sunday, December =
14, 2008 1:06
PM<br>
<b><span style=3D'font-weight:bold'>To:</span></b> =
[log in to unmask]<br>
<b><span style=3D'font-weight:bold'>Subject:</span></b> Re: Clause or =
Phrase</span></font></p>
</div>
<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D3 face=3D"Times New Roman"><span =
style=3D'font-size:
12.0pt'> </span></font></p>
<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D2 color=3D"#1f497d" =
face=3DCalibri><span
style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:Calibri;color:#1F497D'>Who’s
=
“such
a pig” in (2)?</span></font></p>
<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D2 color=3D"#1f497d" =
face=3DCalibri><span
style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:Calibri;color:#1F497D'> </spa
n=
></font></p>
<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D2 color=3D"#1f497d" =
face=3DCalibri><span
style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:Calibri;color:#1F497D'>Herb</span>
<=
/font></p>
<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D2 color=3D"#1f497d" =
face=3DCalibri><span
style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:Calibri;color:#1F497D'> </spa
n=
></font></p>
<div>
<div style=3D'border:none;border-top:solid #B5C4DF 1.0pt;padding:3.0pt =
0in 0in 0in'>
<p class=3DMsoNormal><b><font size=3D2 face=3DTahoma><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;
font-family:Tahoma;font-weight:bold'>From:</span></font></b><font =
size=3D2
face=3DTahoma><span style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Tahoma'> =
Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar =
[mailto:[log in to unmask]] <b><span
style=3D'font-weight:bold'>On Behalf Of </span></b>Veit, Richard<br>
<b><span style=3D'font-weight:bold'>Sent:</span></b> 2008-12-14 =
13:04<br>
<b><span style=3D'font-weight:bold'>To:</span></b> =
[log in to unmask]<br>
<b><span style=3D'font-weight:bold'>Subject:</span></b> Re: Clause or =
Phrase</span></font></p>
</div>
</div>
<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D3 face=3D"Times New Roman"><span =
style=3D'font-size:
12.0pt'> </span></font></p>
<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D2 color=3Dnavy face=3DArial><span =
style=3D'font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy'>Scott,</span></font></p>
<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D2 color=3Dnavy face=3DArial><span =
style=3D'font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy'> </span></font></p>
<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D2 color=3Dnavy face=3DArial><span =
style=3D'font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy'>The comma certainly makes all the
difference in your first and third sentences, which are certainly =
<i><span
style=3D'font-style:italic'>not</span></i> synonymous:</span></font></p>
<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D2 color=3Dnavy face=3DArial><span =
style=3D'font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy'> </span></font></p>
<ol style=3D'margin-top:0in' start=3D1 type=3D1>
<li class=3DMsoNormal style=3D'color:navy'><font size=3D3 color=3Dblack
face=3D"Times New Roman"><span =
style=3D'font-size:12.0pt;color:windowtext'>The
boy was very happy that his mother did not see him being such a =
pig.</span></font></li>
<li class=3DMsoNormal style=3D'color:navy'><font size=3D3 color=3Dblack
face=3D"Times New Roman"><span =
style=3D'font-size:12.0pt;color:windowtext'>The
boy was very happy that his mother did not see him, being such a =
pig.</span></font></li>
</ol>
<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D2 color=3Dnavy face=3DArial><span =
style=3D'font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy'> </span></font></p>
<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D2 color=3Dnavy face=3DArial><span =
style=3D'font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy'>To me the following groupings are =
more or
less synonymous (a with b and c, d with e and f):</span></font></p>
<p class=3DMsoNormal style=3D'margin-left:.25in'><font size=3D3 =
face=3D"Times New Roman"><span
style=3D'font-size:12.0pt'> </span></font></p>
<ol style=3D'margin-top:0in' start=3D1 type=3Da>
<li class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D3 face=3D"Times New Roman"><span
style=3D'font-size:12.0pt'>The boy was very happy that his mother =
did not
see him being such a pig.</span></font></li>
<li class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D3 face=3D"Times New Roman"><span
style=3D'font-size:12.0pt'>The boy was very happy that his mother =
did not
see his being such a pig. </span></font><font size=3D2 =
color=3Dnavy
face=3DArial><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy'>[a
tad awkward for me]</span></font></li>
<li class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D3 face=3D"Times New Roman"><span
style=3D'font-size:12.0pt'>The boy was very happy that his mother =
did not
see him in the act of being such a pig.<br>
</span></font></li>
<li class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D3 face=3D"Times New Roman"><span
style=3D'font-size:12.0pt'>The boy was very happy that his mother =
did not
see him, being such a pig.</span></font></li>
<li class=3DMsoNormal style=3D'color:navy'><font size=3D3 color=3Dblack
face=3D"Times New Roman"><span =
style=3D'font-size:12.0pt;color:windowtext'>The
boy, being such a pig, was very happy that his mother did not see =
him.</span></font></li>
<li class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D3 face=3D"Times New Roman"><span
style=3D'font-size:12.0pt'>The boy was very happy that his mother =
did not
see him, because he was such a pig.</span></font></li>
</ol>
<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D2 color=3Dnavy face=3DArial><span =
style=3D'font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy'> </span></font></p>
<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D2 color=3Dnavy face=3DArial><span =
style=3D'font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy'>Dick Veit</span></font></p>
<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D2 color=3Dnavy face=3DArial><span =
style=3D'font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy'> </span></font></p>
<div>
<div class=3DMsoNormal align=3Dcenter style=3D'text-align:center'><font
=
size=3D3
face=3D"Times New Roman"><span style=3D'font-size:12.0pt'>
<hr size=3D2 width=3D"100%" align=3Dcenter>
</span></font></div>
<p class=3DMsoNormal><b><font size=3D2 face=3DTahoma><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;
font-family:Tahoma;font-weight:bold'>From:</span></font></b><font =
size=3D2
face=3DTahoma><span style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Tahoma'> =
Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar =
[mailto:[log in to unmask]] <b><span
style=3D'font-weight:bold'>On Behalf Of </span></b>Scott Woods<br>
<b><span style=3D'font-weight:bold'>Sent:</span></b> Sunday, December =
14, 2008
2:35 AM<br>
<b><span style=3D'font-weight:bold'>To:</span></b> =
[log in to unmask]<br>
<b><span style=3D'font-weight:bold'>Subject:</span></b> Re: Clause or =
Phrase</span></font></p>
</div>
<table class=3DMsoNormalTable border=3D0 cellspacing=3D0 =
cellpadding=3D0>
<tr>
<td valign=3Dtop style=3D'padding:0in 0in 0in 0in'>
<div>
<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D3 face=3D"Times New Roman"><span
style=3D'font-size:12.0pt'> </span></font></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D3 face=3D"Times New Roman"><span
style=3D'font-size:12.0pt'>Are these pairs basically synonymous to you
=
and are
they punctuated correctly?</span></font></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D3 face=3D"Times New Roman"><span
style=3D'font-size:12.0pt'> </span></font></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3DMsoNormal style=3D'margin-left:.5in'><font size=3D3
face=3D"Times New Roman"><span style=3D'font-size:12.0pt'>The boy was
=
very happy
that his mother did not see him being such a pig.</span></font></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3DMsoNormal style=3D'margin-left:.5in'><font size=3D3
face=3D"Times New Roman"><span style=3D'font-size:12.0pt'>The boy was
=
very happy
that his mother did not see him eating so greedily.</span></font></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3DMsoNormal style=3D'margin-left:.5in'><font size=3D3
face=3D"Times New Roman"><span style=3D'font-size:12.0pt'>The boy was
=
very happy
that his mother did not see him, being such a pig.</span></font></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3DMsoNormal style=3D'margin-left:.5in'><font size=3D3
face=3D"Times New Roman"><span style=3D'font-size:12.0pt'>The boy was
=
very happy
that his mother did not see him, being such a duplicitous =
boy.</span></font></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3DMsoNormal style=3D'margin-left:.5in'><font size=3D3
face=3D"Times New Roman"><span style=3D'font-size:12.0pt'>The boy was
=
very happy
that his mother did not see his being such a pig.</span></font></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3DMsoNormal style=3D'margin-left:.5in'><font size=3D3
face=3D"Times New Roman"><span style=3D'font-size:12.0pt'>The boy was
=
very happy
that his mother did not see his bad behavior.</span></font></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D3 face=3D"Times New Roman"><span
style=3D'font-size:12.0pt'> </span></font></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D3 face=3D"Times New Roman"><span
style=3D'font-size:12.0pt'>Scott Woods</span></font></p>
</div>
</td>
</tr>
</table>
<p><font size=3D3 face=3D"Times New Roman"><span =
style=3D'font-size:12.0pt'> </span></font></p>
<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D3 face=3D"Times New Roman"><span =
style=3D'font-size:
12.0pt'>To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web
interface at: http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html and select
"Join or leave the list" </span></font></p>
<p><font size=3D3 face=3D"Times New Roman"><span =
style=3D'font-size:12.0pt'>Visit
ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/ </span></font></p>
</div>
</body>
</html>
To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web =
interface at:
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and select "Join or leave the list"
<p>
Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/
To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web
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and select "Join or leave the list"
<p>
Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/
------_=_NextPart_001_01C95E20.0ED74AB1--
------------------------------
Date: Sun, 14 Dec 2008 15:10:16 -0600
From: John Dews-Alexander <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Re: scope and sequence: was clause or phrase
------=_Part_30284_11826940.1229289016352
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Content-Disposition: inline
Thanks for the update, Craig! It seems ATEG still has its work cut out
for
it in convincing NCTE to recognize the value of teaching grammar and
other
features of language explicitly as an integral part of the language arts
curriculum. It's good to know that a scope and sequence plan can still
be
hammered out by a group not related to NCTE (although I'm sure ATEG
members
and the discussions here can still be of immense value to that
endeavor).
When the day arrives that NCTE endorses grammar teaching, there will
likely
be a scramble for as many articulated plans as possible!
John Alexander
Austin, Texas
On Sat, Dec 13, 2008 at 10:35 AM, Craig Hancock <[log in to unmask]>
wrote:
> Richard,
> Scope and sequence is in a bit of hiatus. This might be a good time
to
> talk about the reasons for that and the difficulties around doing that
> through ATEG.
> My own frustration dates back to two conferences ago, when I thought
we
> would make great progress on scope and sequence at the conference. My
plan,
> which I thought was agreed on by the conference committee, was to
break
into
> subgroups and have people make suggestions about what might be
covered. We
> could have a sub-group making recommendations about Standard English,
> punctuation, and so on, focusing on the knowledge about language that
wold
> be most helpful and useful. I was hoping people would then feel a
vested
> interest in the project. There was resistance, though, from different
> sources. Some people questioned whether ATEG, as a sub-group of NCTE,
should
> be taking a position on grammar at odds with our parent organization.
That
> conflict of interest has been a constant issue in ATEG, and I don't
fault
> anyone from bringing it up. One result was that we largely used our
time
to
> construct a position statement asking NCTE to endorse the systematic
> teaching of grammar. The position statement, which I thought was very
> thoughtful and nicely written, was simply tabled at the NCTE
convention.
In
> other words, ATEG tried to work through official channels as a
sub-group
of
> NCTE, ibut was stymied by those who feel they know more about this
than we
> do and who, in effect, control our existence as an organization.
> The other problem came from those at the conference, including the
> leadership, who feel that scope and sequence already exists and that
we
have
> no need to construct one. My own tendency has been to lobby for new
ways
of
> looking at grammar, but ATEG has long been an organization made up of
people
> with fairly conservative (not regressive, not by a long shot) views.
This
> was hard on me because I felt I had a lot invested in the project, but
would
> be asked to shut out from the conversation the new possibilities in
grammar
> that excite me the most.
> But let me give a more friendly view of that. Many of us involved in
the
> project have written books on the subject, and you can't really do
that
> without engaging the issue in ways that you feel invested in. What
happens
> if the group advocates a scope that doesn't fit those views? I
sometimes
> feel I am shooting myself in the foot every time I move on in my
thinking
> because I have a 2005 text that now constitutes an older position.
> This might be a way of saying that those of us who know the most tend
to
> have an investment in particular approaches. For ATEG as a whole,
those
> approaches have probably already been written.
> As many of you know, much of the conversation about scope and
sequence
was
> worked out by the New Public Grammar group. I have never wanted that
group
> to be in conflict (to compete with) ATEG. So at that point, I didn't
even
> feel comfortable airing these frustrations on the NPG list. I was, and
still
> am, nervous about creating a rift in the public grammar community. I
didn't
> want anyone to feel I was trying to pull people away from ATEG.
> The unfortunate result has been that Scope and sequence hasn't moved
> forward for some time. A few of us have been in discussion about
starting
it
> back up again as we restart talk on the NPG list.
> NPG has the benefit of being separate from NCTE. It can take a strong
> contrary perspective and not feel uncomfortable about that.
> It can also maintain friendly relationships with ATEG without the
> necessity of ATEG endorsing its views.
> I apologize if I have misrepresented anyone's views or anyone else's
> views about the history of the project. I don't think of it as anyone
being
> at fault. These are very predictable difficulties given the nature of
the
> project.
>
> Craig
>
>
> Richard betting wrote:
>
>> Janet, Craig, et al. continued
>> One of the reasons I tend to believe in the innateness of some
>> grammatical structures is that children can understand the kinds of
>> sentences that have been used in recent posts. For example, a first
grader
>> will understand this exchange: "If you continue to behave badly, you
will
>> not get a present" leads, later in the day, to "That you won't get a
present
>> is very obvious." Another example results in the prepositional
phrase as
>> subject. "He said that he would leave at nine" might lead to "For him
to
>> leave at nine means that we'll have to finish our project quickly." I
got
>> those kinds of sentences and explanations from my study of generative
>> grammar forty years ago. Transformations. The second called the T For
To
>> transform.
>> A comment and a question. The naming of parts: are word groups
phrases
>> or clauses, participial phrases or clauses and should we call them
one-
or
>> two-object verbs? Are these transitive or intransitive structures,
finite
or
>> non-finite verbs, and are these adjective, qualifying, complementary
or
>> appositional clauses or phrases? Are they complex transitive, di- or
>> bi-transitive? Will R & K diagrams help explain them and will
students
be
>> able to distinguish form from function? Are participles and
infinitives
>> parts of speech? Why or why not? How many parts of speech are there,
anyway?
>> And finally, what is the relationship between the naming of parts and
>> improvement in student speaking and writing? Do teachers consciously
and
>> consistently make those connections between theory and practice? Are
>> students being asked to write and speak and are they creating
portfolios
of
>> written work to demonstrate their competence? And are they
participating
in
>> the assessment process?
>>
>> I would bet that the majority of middle school/high school English
>> teachers would not be able to define and explain the terms that have
been
>> discussed, to say nothing of doing so from the perspective of more
than
one
>> grammatical approach. That is not to criticize the teachers
themselves so
>> much as to ask about the educational process shat enabled them to get
where
>> they are without an adequate knowledge of the English language that
they
>> spend so much time teaching. In order to have an ADEQUATE (minimal)
>> background in English, what courses should/must all language arts
teachers
>> have? Could we agree on the required courses? Do current textbooks
(for
>> teachers) meet the content requirement we might create? Is anyone
still
>> working on scope and sequence?
>>
>> Is the current discussion helping create a consensus on these and
other
>> issues that we should be helping decide? Unfortunately, perhaps, the
end
>> result seems to be that each person will create his/her own
curriculum.
If
>> English teachers don't take the opportunity now, someone else will,
as
>> NoChild evolves and insupportable standards (like the naming of
grammar
>> parts) are created. So much to do, so little time.
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> On Dec 12, 2008, at 3:13 PM, Spruiell, William C wrote:
>>
>> Janet, Craig, et al.
>>>
>>> There are a number of traditional grammars that would call the 'me'
in
>>> 'Joe baked a cake for me' an indirect object. In Latin, the pronoun
>>> would be in the dative case, and "indirect object" started out as a
>>> label that meant, basically, "dative object, as opposed to
accusative
>>> object."
>>>
>>> There's a major stress point in the traditional system, though --
the
>>> noun that normally goes with a preposition is usually called "the
object
>>> of the preposition," and it can't be *both* an indirect object and
the
>>> object of the preposition (keep in mind that the traditional
approach
>>> always asks, 'what word does this go with,' so you have to say
either
>>> 'the verb' or 'the preposition' with one of these). Some earlier
>>> grammars dodged this by considering the prepositions themselves to
be
>>> case-markers, but then ran into the fact that English has a LOT more
>>> prepositions than Latin has cases. One group of later grammars ruled
out
>>> the version with the preposition as an indirect object. Another
group
>>> treated it as an indirect object, but only in cases where the
>>> preposition-ed version could be paraphrased as the prepositionless
>>> version (so no indirect object in 'Joe finished off the lutfisk for
>>> me'). Some early generative approaches considered the
prepositionless
>>> version as being made out of the preposition-ed one, so in a sense
there
>>> were no ditransitive verbs (I said "early" here because I'm sure
about
>>> those; I'm not sure about what the current way to deal with the
>>> construction is).
>>>
>>> Whatever you do with it, it's a bit of a mess. Since specific
grammars,
>>> particularly older ones, usually adopt one approach but don't
mention
>>> that there are others, I think it's important for teachers and
students
>>> to know there *is* a history of disagreement over this. I end up
>>> imagining someone writing a state test and thinking there is, and
has
>>> always been, exactly one approach here, and creating a major
problem.
>>>
>>> The "infinitive with understood subject" (For NP to V") presents
even
>>> more of a terminological muddle. From what I've seen, one approach
is to
>>> just call the whole thing a specialized kind of infinitive
construction,
>>> treating the For....to... sequence as a kind of discontinuous
marker, a
>>> bit analogous to either...or; others give one label to the 'for'
part
>>> and another to the 'to' part. I cheat, and call the part introduced
by
>>> "for" 'subject-ish'.
>>>
>>> Bill Spruiell
>>> Dept. of English
>>> Central Michigan University
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> -----Original Message-----
>>> From: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar
>>> [mailto:[log in to unmask]] On Behalf Of Castilleja, Janet
>>> Sent: Friday, December 12, 2008 12:12 PM
>>> To: [log in to unmask]
>>> Subject: Re: Clause or Phrase
>>>
>>> Yeah - I meant 'me.' What I was really trying to get at is whether
or
>>> not people ever call 'for me' in 'Joe baked a cake for me' an
indirect
>>> object, since it seems to be doing the same thing as 'me' in 'Joe
baked
>>> me
>>> a cake.' I had learned that prepositional phrases can't be major
>>> sentence elements like subjects and objects, but that seems to be
>>> substantially more complex.
>>>
>>> 'For me to criticize him would be foolish.' Here 'for me' seems to
be
>>> the subject of the infinitive clause. I know that 'for'
constructions
>>> introduce some non-finite structures, but can we still call them
>>> prepositions?
>>>
>>> I also wondered whether people use the term 'retained object
>>> complement.' I like it, but I think my students feel it goes way
beyond
>>> what anyone should be required to know.
>>>
>>> My state, Washington has teacher tests. We use Praxis by ETS.
Students
>>> are required to take a basic skills test, which we require students
to
>>> take before entering our teacher ed program. Then, if they get an
>>> endorsement such as ESOL or bilingual education, they have to take a
>>> test for that. These are the tests that my students are preparing
for,
>>> and the test really asks them questions about grammar.
>>>
>>> Examples:
>>> My sister and I always loved sledding down the hill
>>> behind our house.
>>>
>>> The underlined word in the sentence above is an
>>> example of
>>>
>>> (A) a conjunction
>>>
>>> (B) a participle
>>>
>>> (C) a gerund
>>>
>>> (D) an adverb
>>>
>>> We went to a restaurant, and dinner was cook very bad.
>>>
>>> The underlined words in the sentence are an example of an error in
>>>
>>> (A) question formation
>>>
>>> (B) relative clause formation
>>>
>>> (C) passive formation
>>>
>>> (D) command formation
>>>
>>> Now I'm careful to use words like 'gerund,' which I didn't used to
use,
>>> because I know they see it on the test.
>>>
>>> Janet
>>>
>>> -----Original Message-----
>>> From: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar
>>> [mailto:[log in to unmask]] On Behalf Of Craig Hancock
>>> Sent: Thursday, December 11, 2008 4:53 PM
>>> To: [log in to unmask]
>>> Subject: Re: Clause or Phrase
>>>
>>> Janet,
>>> These are wonderful questions. Much of what I would say Bill
covers,
>>> so
>>> I'll add a few sidenotes. I have struggled through the same
questions
>>> and feel a little more settled in my thinking.
>>> I think it's so much more important to describe the structure than
it
>>> is to put it in the "right" category. So looking closely at these
>>> non-finite structures and saying they usually are missing a subject
>>> (not always) and aren't grounded with finite verbs is probably the
most
>>> important thing. My students seem OK with saying we'll call them
>>> clauses, but traditional grammar calls them phrases. I end up doing
>>> somewhat the same thing with "gerund" as a term. I don't like it,
but
>>> it's out there, and it helps to at least point out what the word
refers
>>> to for the people who use it.
>>> I start out with "the elements of the simple clause", so I cover
>>> postnominal modification with prepositional phrases first and say
there
>>> are other word groups in that slot that we'll cover later. That
seems
>>> to work for me. I sometimes postpone restrictive and non-restrictive
>>> modification until later as well. Appositional phrases also fit in
that
>>> slot, but I don't bring them in right away.
>>> I think you mistakenly ask about "Joe" as indirect object in your
>>> cake
>>> sentence. My guess is you meant "me". I like the multi-functional
>>> analysis of functional gramamr for that one. From that view, the
>>> transitivity system helps us represent the world. The clause gives
us
>>> processes and participants and circumstances andestablishes
participant
>>> roles. We also have systems in place for construing that event in
>>> different ways. In passives, for example, the direct or indirect
object
>>> gets shifted into the grammatical subject slot without changing
their
>>> real world roles. ("The cake was baked by Joe. I was baked the cake
by
>>> Joe." In both these cases, Joe is obviously still doing the baking.)
>>> This can also give us a way to put different information in the
usual
>>> given slot and in the clause ending slot we usually use for new
>>> information. "Who was the cake for?" "The cake was baked for me."
>>> "What did Joe bake you?" "Joe baked me a cake." "Who baked the
cake?
>>> "The cake was baked by Joe." Students seem to enjoy putting a
clause
>>> through its various permutations and then reflecting on how that
>>> "construes" the process. We can also say something like "Joe baked
all
>>> night", or "Joe baked with great care", not because we have stopped
>>> understanding that "baking" means you bake something and are
probably
>>> doing that for some sort of beneficiary, but because those elements
are
>>> not always in focus. Even categories like "transitive" and
>>> "intransitive" and "di-transitive" and "complex transitive" can be
used
>>> to talk about the verb itself as well as about the structure of a
>>> particular clause. Is "Joe baked all night" intransitive? I think
>>> that's easier to understand if you realize the process hasn't
changed,
>>> but certain aspects of it are simply not in focus for the statement.
>>> I have found that most state tests for students have no real
>>> knowledge
>>> content to them. Even the phrasing of the standards is something
like
>>> "Can puncutate sentences," never anything like "can identify a
>>> participle phrase" or "Can differentiate compound sentences from
>>> compound predicates." Even the SAT simply asks students to pick a
>>> version that seems more effective or more correct. It never asks for
>>> terminology. Language, at least for students, is treated like a
>>> behavior.
>>> Are there teacher tests in your state?
>>>
>>> Craig
>>>
>>> How would you analyze this: Once upon a time, there was a prince
named
>>>
>>>> Joe.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Do you analyze a prince named Joe as a noun phrase with a
participle
>>>> phrase modifying the noun head, or as a participle clause? I've
>>>>
>>> always
>>>
>>>> called these non-finite constructions reduced clauses or participle
>>>> clauses, but I have run into a problem. In my grammar class for
>>>> pre-service teachers, I start with noun phrases. When I teach noun
>>>> modification, I want to teach students about post-modification, but
>>>>
>>> they
>>>
>>>> really don't know anything about finite and non-finite verbs yet,
nor
>>>>
>>> do
>>>
>>>> they know much about clauses. So this semester, I decided I would
>>>>
>>> just
>>>
>>>> call them participle phrases which modify nouns. But then I was in
>>>> trouble when we got to clauses because I wanted to call then
reduced
>>>>
>>> or
>>>
>>>> non-finite clauses. By that time, the students knew enough to say
>>>>
>>> "Hey
>>>
>>>> wait a minute! Didn't you just tell us those were phrases?" At
least
>>>>
>>> I
>>>
>>>> know they were listening in October.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Also, do you call 'Joe' a retained object complement, or is there a
>>>> better way to label this?
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> How about this: Joe baked a cake for me. Can I just go ahead and
>>>>
>>> call
>>>
>>>> 'Joe' an indirect object? It means exactly the same this as Joe
baked
>>>>
>>> me
>>>
>>>> a cake.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> This is an on-going problem for me, because, even though I try to
>>>>
>>> teach
>>>
>>>> them a pretty straight forward descriptive-structural-functional
view
>>>>
>>> of
>>>
>>>> syntax (Quirk et al is my bible), with a little discussion of
>>>> prescriptivism thrown in so they'll know what to expect when they
get
>>>> into the schools, I find that frequently there is more than one way
to
>>>> analyze a given structure. This disturbs my students. They want
to
>>>> know the 'right' way, and it better be the way that it is gong to
show
>>>> up on the subject area test they have to take. Do you think there
is
>>>> any consensus on the 'best' grammar approach to teach pre-service
>>>> teachers? This is not a trivial issue, since they have high-stakes
>>>> tests (for themselves and their students) principals and parents in
>>>> their futures.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Comments?
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Janet Castilleja
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web
>>>>
>>> interface
>>>
>>>> at:
>>>> http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html
>>>> and select "Join or leave the list"
>>>>
>>>> Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/
>>>>
>>>>
>>> To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web
>>> interface at:
>>> http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html
>>> and select "Join or leave the list"
>>>
>>> Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/
>>>
>>> To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web
>>> interface at:
>>> http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html
>>> and select "Join or leave the list"
>>>
>>> Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/
>>>
>>> To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web
>>> interface at:
>>> http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html
>>> and select "Join or leave the list"
>>>
>>> Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/
>>>
>>
>> To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web
interface
>> at:
>> http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html
>> and select "Join or leave the list"
>>
>> Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/
>>
>>
>>
> To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web
interface
> at:
> http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html
> and select "Join or leave the list"
>
> Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/
>
To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web
interface
at:
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and select "Join or leave the list"
Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/
------=_Part_30284_11826940.1229289016352
Content-Type: text/html; charset=ISO-8859-1
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Content-Disposition: inline
<div>Thanks for the update, Craig! It seems ATEG still has its work cut
out=
for it in convincing NCTE to recognize the value of teaching grammar
and o=
ther features of language explicitly as an integral part of the language
ar=
ts curriculum. It's good to know that a scope and sequence plan can
sti=
ll be hammered out by a group not related to NCTE (although I'm sure
AT=
EG members and the discussions here can still be of immense value to
that e=
ndeavor). When the day arrives that NCTE endorses grammar teaching,
there w=
ill likely be a scramble for as many articulated plans as
possible!</div>
<div> </div>
<div>John Alexander</div>
<div>Austin, Texas<br><br></div>
<div class=3D"gmail_quote">On Sat, Dec 13, 2008 at 10:35 AM, Craig
Hancock =
<span dir=3D"ltr"><<a
href=3D"mailto:[log in to unmask]">[log in to unmask]
edu</a>></span> wrote:<br>
<blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"PADDING-LEFT: 1ex; MARGIN:
0px 0=
px 0px 0.8ex; BORDER-LEFT: #ccc 1px solid">Richard,<br> Scope and
sequ=
ence is in a bit of hiatus. This might be a good time to talk about the
rea=
sons for that and the difficulties around doing that through ATEG.<br>
My own frustration dates back to two conferences ago, when I
thought =
we would make great progress on scope and sequence at the conference. My
pl=
an, which I thought was agreed on by the conference committee, was to
break=
into subgroups and have people make suggestions about what might be
covere=
d. We could have a sub-group making recommendations about Standard
English,=
punctuation, and so on, focusing on the knowledge about language that
wold=
be most helpful and useful. I was hoping people would then feel a
vested i=
nterest in the project. There was resistance, though, from
different =
sources. Some people questioned whether ATEG, as a sub-group of NCTE,
shoul=
d be taking a position on grammar at odds with our parent organization.
Tha=
t conflict of interest has been a constant issue in ATEG, and I
don't f=
ault anyone from bringing it up. One result was that we largely used our
ti=
me to construct a position statement asking NCTE to endorse the
systematic =
teaching of grammar. The position statement, which I thought was very
thoug=
htful and nicely written, was simply tabled at the NCTE convention. In
othe=
r words, ATEG tried to work through official channels as a
sub-group =
of NCTE, ibut was stymied by those who feel they know more about this
than =
we do and who, in effect, control our existence as an organization.<br>
The other problem came from those at the conference, including the
le=
adership, who feel that scope and sequence already exists and that we
have =
no need to construct one. My own tendency has been to lobby for new ways
of=
looking at grammar, but ATEG has long been an organization made up of
peop=
le with fairly conservative (not regressive, not by a long shot) views.
&nb=
sp;This was hard on me because I felt I had a lot invested in the
project, =
but would be asked to shut out from the conversation the new
possibilities =
in grammar that excite me the most.<br>
But let me give a more friendly view of that. Many of us involved
in =
the project have written books on the subject, and you can't really
do =
that without engaging the issue in ways that you feel invested in. What
hap=
pens if the group advocates a scope that doesn't fit those views?
 =
;I sometimes feel I am shooting myself in the foot every time I move on
in =
my thinking because I have a 2005 text that now constitutes an older
positi=
on.<br>
This might be a way of saying that those of us who know the most
tend=
to have an investment in particular approaches. For ATEG as a whole,
those=
approaches have probably already been written.<br> As many of you
kno=
w, much of the conversation about scope and sequence was worked out by
the =
New Public Grammar group. I have never wanted that group to be in
conflict =
(to compete with) ATEG. So at that point, I didn't even feel
comfortabl=
e airing these frustrations on the NPG list. I was, and still am,
nervous a=
bout creating a rift in the public grammar community. I didn't want
any=
one to feel I was trying to pull people away from ATEG.<br>
The unfortunate result has been that Scope and sequence hasn't
mo=
ved forward for some time. A few of us have been in discussion about
starti=
ng it back up again as we restart talk on the NPG list.<br> NPG has
th=
e benefit of being separate from NCTE. It can take a strong contrary
perspe=
ctive and not feel uncomfortable about that.<br>
It can also maintain friendly relationships with ATEG without the
nec=
essity of ATEG endorsing its views.<br> I apologize if I have
mi=
srepresented anyone's views or anyone else's views about the
histor=
y of the project. I don't think of it as anyone being at fault.
These a=
re very predictable difficulties given the nature of the project.<br>
<br>Craig<br><br><br>Richard betting wrote:<br>
<blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"PADDING-LEFT: 1ex; MARGIN:
0px 0=
px 0px 0.8ex; BORDER-LEFT: #ccc 1px solid">Janet, Craig, et al.
continued<b=
r> One of the reasons I tend to believe in the
innateness=
of some grammatical structures is that children can understand the
kinds o=
f sentences that have been used in recent posts. For example, a first
grade=
r will understand this exchange: "If you continue to behave badly,
you=
will not get a present" leads, later in the day, to "That you
wo=
n't get a present is very obvious." Another example
results =
in the prepositional phrase as subject. "He said that he would
leave a=
t nine" might lead to "For him to leave at nine means that
we'=
;ll have to finish our project quickly." I got those kinds of
sentence=
s and explanations from my study of generative grammar forty years ago.
Tra=
nsformations. The second called the T For To transform.<br>
A comment and a question. The naming of parts: are word
groups=
phrases or clauses, participial phrases or clauses and should we call
them=
one- or two-object verbs? Are these transitive or intransitive
structures,=
finite or non-finite verbs, and are these adjective, qualifying,
complemen=
tary or appositional clauses or phrases? Are they complex transitive,
di- o=
r bi-transitive? Will R & K diagrams help explain them and
will s=
tudents be able to distinguish form from function? Are participles and
infi=
nitives parts of speech? Why or why not? How many parts of speech are
there=
, anyway? And finally, what is the relationship between the naming of
parts=
and improvement in student speaking and writing? Do teachers
conscio=
usly and consistently make those connections between theory and
practice? A=
re students being asked to write and speak and are they creating
portfolios=
of written work to demonstrate their competence? And are they
participatin=
g in the assessment process?<br>
<br>I would bet that the majority of middle school/high school English
teac=
hers would not be able to define and explain the terms that have been
discu=
ssed, to say nothing of doing so from the perspective of more than one
gram=
matical approach. That is not to criticize the teachers themselves so
much =
as to ask about the educational process shat enabled them to get where
they=
are without an adequate knowledge of the English language that they
spend =
so much time teaching. In order to have an ADEQUATE (minimal) background
in=
English, what courses should/must all language arts teachers have?
Could w=
e agree on the required courses? Do current textbooks (for teachers)
meet t=
he content requirement we might create? Is anyone still working on scope
an=
d sequence?<br>
<br>Is the current discussion helping create a consensus on these and
other=
issues that we should be helping decide? Unfortunately, perhaps, the
end r=
esult seems to be that each person will create his/her own curriculum.
&nbs=
p;If English teachers don't take the opportunity now, someone else will,
as=
NoChild evolves and insupportable standards (like the naming of
gram=
mar parts) are created. So much to do, so little time.<br>
<br><br><br><br><br><br>On Dec 12, 2008, at 3:13 PM, Spruiell, William C
wr=
ote:<br><br>
<blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"PADDING-LEFT: 1ex; MARGIN:
0px 0=
px 0px 0.8ex; BORDER-LEFT: #ccc 1px solid">Janet, Craig, et
al.<br><br>Ther=
e are a number of traditional grammars that would call the 'me'
in<=
br>
'Joe baked a cake for me' an indirect object. In Latin, the
pronoun=
<br>would be in the dative case, and "indirect object" started
ou=
t as a<br>label that meant, basically, "dative object, as opposed
to a=
ccusative<br>
object."<br><br>There's a major stress point in the traditional
sy=
stem, though -- the<br>noun that normally goes with a preposition is
usuall=
y called "the object<br>of the preposition," and it can't
be =
*both* an indirect object and the<br>
object of the preposition (keep in mind that the traditional
approach<br>al=
ways asks, 'what word does this go with,' so you have to say
either=
<br>'the verb' or 'the preposition' with one of these).
Som=
e earlier<br>
grammars dodged this by considering the prepositions themselves to
be<br>ca=
se-markers, but then ran into the fact that English has a LOT
more<br>prepo=
sitions than Latin has cases. One group of later grammars ruled out<br>
the version with the preposition as an indirect object. Another
group<br>tr=
eated it as an indirect object, but only in cases where
the<br>preposition-=
ed version could be paraphrased as the prepositionless<br>version (so no
in=
direct object in 'Joe finished off the lutfisk for<br>
me'). Some early generative approaches considered the
prepositionless<b=
r>version as being made out of the preposition-ed one, so in a sense
there<=
br>were no ditransitive verbs (I said "early" here because
I'=
m sure about<br>
those; I'm not sure about what the current way to deal with
the<br>cons=
truction is).<br><br>Whatever you do with it, it's a bit of a mess.
Sin=
ce specific grammars,<br>particularly older ones, usually adopt one
approac=
h but don't mention<br>
that there are others, I think it's important for teachers and
students=
<br>to know there *is* a history of disagreement over this. I end
up<br>ima=
gining someone writing a state test and thinking there is, and
has<br>alway=
s been, exactly one approach here, and creating a major problem.<br>
<br>The "infinitive with understood subject" (For NP to
V") =
presents even<br>more of a terminological muddle. From what I've
seen, =
one approach is to<br>just call the whole thing a specialized kind of
infin=
itive construction,<br>
treating the For....to... sequence as a kind of discontinuous marker,
a<br>=
bit analogous to either...or; others give one label to the 'for'
pa=
rt<br>and another to the 'to' part. I cheat, and call the part
intr=
oduced by<br>
"for" 'subject-ish'.<br><br>Bill Spruiell<br>Dept. of
Eng=
lish<br>Central Michigan University<br><br><br><br>-----Original
Message---=
--<br>From: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar<br>[mailto:<a
href=
=3D"mailto:[log in to unmask]"
target=3D"_blank">[log in to unmask]
.EDU</a>] On Behalf Of Castilleja, Janet<br>
Sent: Friday, December 12, 2008 12:12 PM<br>To: <a
href=3D"mailto:ATEG@LIST=
SERV.MUOHIO.EDU"
target=3D"_blank">[log in to unmask]</a><br>Subject:=
Re: Clause or Phrase<br><br>Yeah - I meant 'me.' What I
was =
really trying to get at is whether or<br>
not people ever call 'for me' in 'Joe baked a cake for
me' =
an indirect<br>object, since it seems to be doing the same thing
as &=
#39;me' in 'Joe baked<br>me<br>a cake.' I had learned that
prep=
ositional phrases can't be major<br>
sentence elements like subjects and objects, but that seems to
be<br>substa=
ntially more complex.<br><br>'For me to criticize him would be
foolish.=
' Here 'for me' seems to be<br>the subject of the
infini=
tive clause. I know that 'for' constructions<br>
introduce some non-finite structures, but can we still call
them<br>preposi=
tions?<br><br>I also wondered whether people use the term 'retained
obj=
ect<br>complement.' I like it, but I think my students feel it
go=
es way beyond<br>
what anyone should be required to know.<br><br>My state, Washington has
tea=
cher tests. We use Praxis by ETS. Students<br>are required to take
a =
basic skills test, which we require students to<br>take before entering
our=
teacher ed program. Then, if they get an<br>
endorsement such as ESOL or bilingual education, they have to take
a<br>tes=
t for that. These are the tests that my students are preparing
for,<br>and =
the test really asks them questions about grammar.<br><br>Examples:<br>
My sister and I always loved sledding down the hill<br>behind our
house.<br=
><br>The underlined word in the sentence above is an<br>example
of<br><br>(=
A) a conjunction<br><br>(B) a participle<br><br>(C) a gerund<br><br>(D)
an =
adverb<br>
<br>We went to a restaurant, and dinner was cook very bad.<br><br>The
under=
lined words in the sentence are an example of an error in<br><br>(A)
=
question formation<br><br>(B) relative clause
formation=
<br><br>(C) passive formation<br>
<br>(D) command formation<br><br>Now I'm careful to use
wo=
rds like 'gerund,' which I didn't used to use,<br>because I
kno=
w they see it on the test.<br><br>Janet<br><br>-----Original
Message-----<b=
r>From: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar<br>
[mailto:<a href=3D"mailto:[log in to unmask]"
target=3D"_blank">ATEG@=
LISTSERV.MUOHIO.EDU</a>] On Behalf Of Craig Hancock<br>Sent: Thursday,
Dece=
mber 11, 2008 4:53 PM<br>To: <a href=3D"mailto:[log in to unmask]"
ta=
rget=3D"_blank">[log in to unmask]</a><br>
Subject: Re: Clause or Phrase<br><br>Janet,<br> These are wonderful
qu=
estions. Much of what I would say Bill covers,<br>so<br>I'll add a
few =
sidenotes. I have struggled through the same questions<br>and feel a
little=
more settled in my thinking.<br>
I think it's so much more important to describe the structure
tha=
n it<br>is to put it in the "right" category. So looking
closely =
at these<br>non-finite structures and saying they usually are missing a
sub=
ject<br>
(not always) and aren't grounded with finite verbs is probably the
most=
<br>important thing. My students seem OK with saying we'll call
them<br=
>clauses, but traditional grammar calls them phrases. I end up doing<br>
somewhat the same thing with "gerund" as a term. I don't
like=
it, but<br>it's out there, and it helps to at least point out what
the=
word refers<br>to for the people who use it.<br> I start out with
&qu=
ot;the elements of the simple clause", so I cover<br>
postnominal modification with prepositional phrases first and say
there<br>=
are other word groups in that slot that we'll cover later. That
seems<b=
r>to work for me. I sometimes postpone restrictive and
non-restrictive<br>
modification until later as well. Appositional phrases also fit in
that<br>=
slot, but I don't bring them in right away.<br> I think you
mistak=
enly ask about "Joe" as indirect object in
your<br>cake<br>senten=
ce. My guess is you meant "me". I like the
multi-functional<br>
analysis of functional gramamr for that one. From that view,
the<br>transit=
ivity system helps us represent the world. The clause gives
us<br>processes=
and participants and circumstances andestablishes participant<br>roles.
We=
also have systems in place for construing that event in<br>
different ways. In passives, for example, the direct or indirect
object<br>=
gets shifted into the grammatical subject slot without changing
their<br>re=
al world roles. ("The cake was baked by Joe. I was baked the cake
by<b=
r>
Joe." In both these cases, Joe is obviously still doing the
baking.)<b=
r>This can also give us a way to put different information in the
usual<br>=
given slot and in the clause ending slot we usually use for
new<br>informat=
ion. "Who was the cake for?" "The cake was baked for
me.&quo=
t;<br>
"What did Joe bake you?" "Joe baked me a
cake." &=
nbsp;"Who baked the cake?<br>"The cake was baked by Joe."
&n=
bsp;Students seem to enjoy putting a clause<br>through its various
permutat=
ions and then reflecting on how that<br>
"construes" the process. We can also say something like
"Joe=
baked all<br>night", or "Joe baked with great care", not
be=
cause we have stopped<br>understanding that "baking" means you
ba=
ke something and are probably<br>
doing that for some sort of beneficiary, but because those elements
are<br>=
not always in focus. Even categories like "transitive"
and<br>&qu=
ot;intransitive" and "di-transitive" and "complex
trans=
itive" can be used<br>
to talk about the verb itself as well as about the structure of
a<br>partic=
ular clause. Is "Joe baked all night" intransitive? I
think<br>th=
at's easier to understand if you realize the process hasn't
changed=
,<br>
but certain aspects of it are simply not in focus for the
statement.<br>&nb=
sp;I have found that most state tests for students have no
real<br>knowledg=
e<br>content to them. Even the phrasing of the standards is something
like<=
br>
"Can puncutate sentences," never anything like "can
identify=
a<br>participle phrase" or "Can differentiate compound
sentences=
from<br>compound predicates." Even the SAT simply asks students to
pi=
ck a<br>
version that seems more effective or more correct. It never asks
for<br>ter=
minology. Language, at least for students, is treated like
a<br>behavior.<b=
r> Are there teacher tests in your state?<br><br>Craig<br><br>How
woul=
d you analyze this: Once upon a time, there was a prince named<br>
<blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"PADDING-LEFT: 1ex; MARGIN:
0px 0=
px 0px 0.8ex; BORDER-LEFT: #ccc 1px solid">Joe.<br><br><br><br>Do you
analy=
ze a prince named Joe as a noun phrase with a participle<br>phrase
modifyin=
g the noun head, or as a participle clause? I've<br>
</blockquote>always<br>
<blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"PADDING-LEFT: 1ex; MARGIN:
0px 0=
px 0px 0.8ex; BORDER-LEFT: #ccc 1px solid">called these non-finite
construc=
tions reduced clauses or participle<br>clauses, but I have run into a
probl=
em. In my grammar class for<br>
pre-service teachers, I start with noun phrases. When I teach
noun<br=
>modification, I want to teach students about post-modification,
but<br></b=
lockquote>they<br>
<blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"PADDING-LEFT: 1ex; MARGIN:
0px 0=
px 0px 0.8ex; BORDER-LEFT: #ccc 1px solid">really don't know
anything a=
bout finite and non-finite verbs yet, nor<br></blockquote>do<br>
<blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"PADDING-LEFT: 1ex; MARGIN:
0px 0=
px 0px 0.8ex; BORDER-LEFT: #ccc 1px solid">they know much about clauses.
&n=
bsp;So this semester, I decided I would<br></blockquote>just<br>
<blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"PADDING-LEFT: 1ex; MARGIN:
0px 0=
px 0px 0.8ex; BORDER-LEFT: #ccc 1px solid">call them participle phrases
whi=
ch modify nouns. But then I was in<br>trouble when we got to
clauses =
because I wanted to call then reduced<br>
</blockquote>or<br>
<blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"PADDING-LEFT: 1ex; MARGIN:
0px 0=
px 0px 0.8ex; BORDER-LEFT: #ccc 1px solid">non-finite clauses. By
tha=
t time, the students knew enough to say<br></blockquote>"Hey<br>
<blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"PADDING-LEFT: 1ex; MARGIN:
0px 0=
px 0px 0.8ex; BORDER-LEFT: #ccc 1px solid">wait a minute!
Didn't =
you just tell us those were phrases?" At
least<br></blockquote>I=
<br>
<blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"PADDING-LEFT: 1ex; MARGIN:
0px 0=
px 0px 0.8ex; BORDER-LEFT: #ccc 1px solid">know they were listening in
Octo=
ber.<br><br><br><br>Also, do you call 'Joe' a retained object
compl=
ement, or is there a<br>
better way to label this?<br><br><br><br>How about this: Joe baked
a =
cake for me. Can I just go ahead and<br></blockquote>call<br>
<blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"PADDING-LEFT: 1ex; MARGIN:
0px 0=
px 0px 0.8ex; BORDER-LEFT: #ccc 1px solid">'Joe' an indirect
object=
? It means exactly the same this as Joe baked<br></blockquote>me<br>
<blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"PADDING-LEFT: 1ex; MARGIN:
0px 0=
px 0px 0.8ex; BORDER-LEFT: #ccc 1px solid">a cake.<br><br><br><br>This
is a=
n on-going problem for me, because, even though I try
to<br></blockquote>te=
ach<br>
<blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"PADDING-LEFT: 1ex; MARGIN:
0px 0=
px 0px 0.8ex; BORDER-LEFT: #ccc 1px solid">them a pretty straight
forward d=
escriptive-structural-functional view<br></blockquote>of<br>
<blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"PADDING-LEFT: 1ex; MARGIN:
0px 0=
px 0px 0.8ex; BORDER-LEFT: #ccc 1px solid">syntax (Quirk et al is my
bible)=
, with a little discussion of<br>prescriptivism thrown in so they'll
kn=
ow what to expect when they get<br>
into the schools, I find that frequently there is more than one way
to<br>a=
nalyze a given structure. This disturbs my students. They
want =
to<br>know the 'right' way, and it better be the way that it is
gon=
g to show<br>
up on the subject area test they have to take. Do you think there
is<=
br>any consensus on the 'best' grammar approach to teach
pre-servic=
e<br>teachers? This is not a trivial issue, since they have
high-stak=
es<br>
tests (for themselves and their students) principals and parents
in<br>thei=
r futures.<br><br><br><br>Comments?<br><br><br><br>Janet
Castilleja<br><br>=
<br>To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's
web<br=
>
</blockquote>interface<br>
<blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"PADDING-LEFT: 1ex; MARGIN:
0px 0=
px 0px 0.8ex; BORDER-LEFT: #ccc 1px solid">at:<br> <a
href=3D"h=
ttp://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html"
target=3D"_blank">http://list=
serv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html</a><br>
and select "Join or leave the list"<br><br>Visit ATEG's
web s=
ite at <a href=3D"http://ateg.org/"
target=3D"_blank">http://ateg.org/</a><=
br><br></blockquote><br>To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please
visit t=
he list's web<br>
interface at:<br> <a
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s/ateg.html"
target=3D"_blank">http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.htm=
l</a><br>and select "Join or leave the list"<br><br>Visit
ATEG=
9;s web site at <a href=3D"http://ateg.org/"
target=3D"_blank">http://ateg.=
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ml</a><br>
and select "Join or leave the list"<br><br>Visit ATEG's
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et=3D"_blank">http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html</a><br>and
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ct "Join or leave the list"<br><br>Visit ATEG's web site
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es/ateg.html</a><br>
and select "Join or leave the list"<br><br>Visit ATEG's
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ite at <a href=3D"http://ateg.org/"
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it the list's web interface at:<br>
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et=3D"_blank">http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html</a><br>and
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ct "Join or leave the list"<br><br>Visit ATEG's web site
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and select "Join or leave the list"
<p>
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------=_Part_30284_11826940.1229289016352--
------------------------------
Date: Sun, 14 Dec 2008 14:03:38 -0800
From: "Paul E. Doniger" <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Re: Engaging in the grammar trenches (was: Conservatives!)
I think you're right, but I'd also add that there's a need for =
--0-1483397165-1229292218=:13806
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Geoff,=0A=0AI think you're right, but I'd also add that there's a need
for =
grammar instruction in connection with the other parts of the Language
Arts=
umbrella besides just writing: Reading, Listening, Speaking, and
Thinkng. =
For example, I have found many times that grammatical analysis can help
stu=
dents understand literary texts (and have written about
this).=0A=0APaul=0A=
=A0"If this were play'd upon a stage now, I could condemn it as an
improbab=
le fiction" (_Twelfth Night_ 3.4.127-128).
=0A=0A=0A=0A=0A_________________=
_______________=0AFrom: Geoffrey Layton <[log in to unmask]>=0ATo:
ATEG@=
LISTSERV.MUOHIO.EDU=0ASent: Sunday, December 14, 2008 12:58:43
PM=0ASubject=
: Re: Engaging in the grammar trenches (was: Conservatives!)=0A=0AFrom
the =
situation you describe I think has arisen the "grammar in context"
crowd, w=
hich as Martha has pointed out is dedicated to teaching the same old
gramma=
r rules, but with a new and more "politically correct" name - i.e., one
tha=
t seems to respond to the NCTE injunction against grammar
instruction.=A0 T=
he problem as I see it is not so much that students don't know their
adverb=
ials from their adjectivals, but that they don't know how to use the
basic =
structure/grammar of the language to create the meaning that they for
the m=
ost part are capable of.=A0 I think this goes back to the previous
discussi=
on where Bob brought up the structural deficiencies of basic writers and
ho=
w we as writing teachers have such great difficulties dealing with these
pr=
oblems.=0A=0AGeoff
Layton=0A=0A=0A=0A________________________________=0ADat=
e: Sun, 14 Dec 2008 08:28:03 -0800=0AFrom: [log in to unmask]:
Re:=
Engaging in the grammar trenches (was: Conservatives!)=0ATo:
ATEG@LISTSERV=
.MUOHIO.EDU=0A=0A=0AThis reminds me of the rather curious observations I
ha=
ve had over the past ten years or so: Most of my high school English
teachi=
ng peers=A0have commented on the lack of grammar teaching that their
studen=
ts have experienced (or seem to have lacked the experience of). Yet few
of =
them have the time or the interest=A0to=A0get involved in the
conversation =
(indeed, may don't seem to know that the conversation even exists). I
know =
that I have too many other pulls on my time and interests to devote as
much=
to these issues as I would like -- and I've been more involved than
most o=
f my peers (my long silences are due not to a lack of interest, but to a
la=
ck of time). And with the work load for teachers increasing as it seems
to =
be doing, it doesn't look like this will change at any time
soon.=A0=0AAlso=
, I think most uf us at the secondary level seem to believe (and perhaps
ri=
ghtly) that the issues of grammar (which they see as one of error
correctio=
n mostly) should have been dealt with in elementary and middle school. I
be=
lieve that unless elementary and middle school teachers are recruited
more =
dynamically into this conversation, change can't happen.=0A=A0=0AWhat
are y=
our thoughts & experiences? =0A=A0=0APaul D.=0A=0A=0A=A0"If this were
play'=
d upon a stage now, I could condemn it as an improbable fiction"
(_Twelfth =
Night_ 3.4.127-128).
=0A=0A=0A=0A=0A________________________________=0AFrom=
: Craig Hancock <[log in to unmask]>=0ATo:
[log in to unmask]:=
Sunday, December 14, 2008 9:20:24 AM=0ASubject: Re:
Conservatives!=0A=0ABo=
b,=0A=A0 I agree with some conservatives much more than I agree with
others=
. I=0Adon't like the views of grammar typical of "progressive"
educators.=
=0AThis sort of response doesn't help. I don't think "conservative" is
a=0A=
bad name.=0A=A0 ATEG is a conservative organization. Most of the
conversati=
on on list is=0Aabout whether something is "correct" or about how to
classi=
fy something,=0Ausually using structural or traditional grammar as the
lens=
. If you are=0Ainterested in alternative approaches, as I am, you can
feel =
somewhat=0Alonely. It's not just that people disagree with those views,
but=
that=0Athere's not the sort of robust discussion about them that there
sho=
uld=0Abe on a grammar list. As groups go, it's a conservative
group.=0A=A0 =
If that's the case, it would make sense that many people would
wonder=0Awhy=
we need a scope and sequence. Don't they already exist? Isn't it
a=0Amatte=
r of just getting endorsement for the gramamr that's already
out=0Athere?=
=0A=A0 I don't agree with that position, but I can respect it. I can
also t=
ry=0Ato understand the nature of the difficulties involved in moving
forwar=
d=0Awith a scope and sequence throught ATEG.=0A=A0 1) NCTE is oppossed
to i=
t, and we are an NCTE subgroup.=0A=A0 2) Most people on ATEG adhere to
pers=
pectives on gramamr that are=0Aalready somewhat established (even if
their =
teaching is not.) Frankly, I=0Athink we would be much better off if we
went=
back to the teaching of=0Agrammar I was given growing up, but we don't
nec=
essarily have to do=0Athat. A great deal has happened since the 1950's,
muc=
h of it so much=0Amore friendly to applications in reading and
writing.=0A=
=0ACraig>=0A=0AWhat an=A0 interesting way of characterizing views of
gramma=
r that disagree=0A> with your own!=0A>=0A> Craig writes:=0A>=0A> My own
ten=
dency has been to lobby for new=A0 ways of looking at grammar, but=0A>
ATEG=
has long been an organization made=0A> up of people with fairly
conservati=
ve (not regressive, not by a long=0A> shot) views.=A0 This was hard on
me b=
ecause I felt I had a lot invested in=0A> the project, but would be
asked t=
o shut out from the conversation the=0A> new possibilities in grammar
that =
excite me the most.=0A>=0A> ****=0A> Of course, there is no hostility in
ch=
aracterizing others views with the=0A> term "fairly
conservative."=0A>=0A> =
Craig, I appreciate such an honest appraisal of others views of the
nature=
=0A> of language.=0A>=0A> Bob Yates, University of Central
Missouri=0A>=0A>=
To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web
interface=
=0A> at:=0A>=A0 =A0 =A0
http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html=0A> a=
nd select "Join or leave the list"=0A>=0A> Visit ATEG's web site at
http://=
ateg.org/=0A>=0A=0ATo join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the
li=
st's web interface at:=0A=A0 =A0
http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.h=
tml=0Aand select "Join or leave the list"=0A=0AVisit ATEG's web site at
htt=
p://ateg.org/=0ATo join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the
list'=
s web interface at: http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html and
selec=
t "Join or leave the list" Visit ATEG's web site at
http://ateg.org/=0A=0A_=
_______________________________=0ASend e-mail faster without improving
your=
typing skills. Get your Hotmail=AE account. To join or leave this
LISTSERV=
list, please visit the list's web interface at:
http://listserv.muohio.edu=
/archives/ateg.html and select "Join or leave the list" =0AVisit ATEG's
web=
site at http://ateg.org/
To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web
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at:
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and select "Join or leave the list"
Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/
--0-1483397165-1229292218=:13806
Content-Type: text/html; charset=iso-8859-1
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
<html><head><style type=3D"text/css"><!-- DIV {margin:0px;}
--></style></he=
ad><body><div style=3D"font-family:verdana, helvetica,
sans-serif;font-size=
:10pt"><DIV></DIV>=0A<DIV>Geoff,</DIV>=0A<DIV> </DIV>=0A<DIV>I
think y=
ou're right, but I'd also add that there's a need for grammar
instruction i=
n connection with the other parts of the Language Arts umbrella besides
jus=
t writing: Reading, Listening, Speaking, and Thinkng. For example, I
have f=
ound many times that grammatical analysis can help students understand
lite=
rary texts (and have written about
this).</DIV>=0A<DIV> </DIV>=0A<DIV>=
Paul<BR> </DIV>"If this were play'd upon a stage now, I could
condemn =
it as an improbable fiction" (_Twelfth Night_
3.4.127-128).=0A<DIV><BR></DI=
V>=0A<DIV style=3D"FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: verdana, helvetica,
sans-s=
erif"><BR>=0A<DIV style=3D"FONT-SIZE: 12pt; FONT-FAMILY: times new
roman, n=
ew york, times, serif"><FONT face=3DTahoma size=3D2>=0A<HR
SIZE=3D1>=0A<B><=
SPAN style=3D"FONT-WEIGHT: bold">From:</SPAN></B> Geoffrey Layton
<write=
[log in to unmask]><BR><B><SPAN style=3D"FONT-WEIGHT:
bold">To:</SPAN></B>=
[log in to unmask]<BR><B><SPAN style=3D"FONT-WEIGHT:
bold">Sent:</SP=
AN></B> Sunday, December 14, 2008 12:58:43 PM<BR><B><SPAN
style=3D"FONT-WEI=
GHT: bold">Subject:</SPAN></B> Re: Engaging in the grammar trenches
(was: C=
onservatives!)<BR></FONT><BR>=0A<STYLE>=0A.hmmessage
P=0A{=0Amargin:0px;pad=
ding:0px;}=0Abody.hmmessage=0A{=0Afont-size:10pt;font-family:Verdana;}=0
A</=
STYLE>=0AFrom the situation you describe I think has arisen the "grammar
in=
context" crowd, which as Martha has pointed out is dedicated to
teaching t=
he same old grammar rules, but with a new and more "politically correct"
na=
me - i.e., one that seems to respond to the NCTE injunction against
grammar=
instruction. The problem as I see it is not so much that students
do=
n't know their adverbials from their adjectivals, but that they don't
know =
how to use the basic structure/grammar of the language to create the
meanin=
g that they for the most part are capable of. I think this goes
back =
to the previous discussion where Bob brought up the structural
deficiencies=
of basic writers and how we as writing teachers have such great
difficulti=
es dealing with these problems.<BR><BR>Geoff
Layton<BR><BR><BR><BR>=0A<HR i=
d=3DstopSpelling>=0ADate: Sun, 14 Dec 2008 08:28:03 -0800<BR>From:
pdoniger=
@SNET.NET<BR>Subject: Re: Engaging in the grammar trenches (was:
Conservati=
ves!)<BR>To: [log in to unmask]<BR><BR>=0A<STYLE>=0A.ExternalClass
DI=
V=0A{}=0A</STYLE>=0A=0A<DIV style=3D"FONT-SIZE: 12pt; FONT-FAMILY:
bookman =
old style, new york, times, serif">=0A<DIV></DIV>=0A<DIV><FONT
face=3DVerda=
na>This reminds me of the rather curious observations I have had over
the p=
ast ten years or so: Most of my high school English teaching
peers hav=
e commented on the lack of grammar teaching that their students have
experi=
enced (or seem to have lacked the experience of). Yet few of them have
the =
time or the interest to get involved in the conversation
(indeed,=
may don't seem to know that the conversation even exists). I know that
I h=
ave too many other pulls on my time and interests to devote as much to
thes=
e issues as I would like -- and I've been more involved than most of my
pee=
rs (my long silences are due not to a lack of interest, but to a lack of
ti=
me). And with the work load for teachers increasing as it seems to be
doing=
, it doesn't look like this will change at any time
soon.</FONT></DIV><FONT=
face=3DVerdana></FONT> <BR><FONT face=3DVerdana>Also, I think most
uf=
us at the secondary level seem to believe (and
perhaps rightly) that the issues of grammar (which they see as one of
erro=
r correction mostly) should have been dealt with in elementary and
middle s=
chool. I believe that unless elementary and middle school teachers are
recr=
uited more dynamically into this conversation, change can't
happen.</FONT><=
BR><FONT face=3DVerdana></FONT> <BR><FONT face=3DVerdana>What are
your=
thoughts & experiences? </FONT><BR><FONT
face=3DVerdana></FONT> <=
BR><FONT face=3DVerdana>Paul D.</FONT><BR>=0A<DIV><BR> </DIV><FONT
siz=
e=3D2>"If this were play'd upon a stage now, I could condemn it as an
impro=
bable fiction" (_Twelfth Night_ 3.4.127-128).</FONT>
=0A<DIV><BR></DIV>=0A<=
DIV style=3D"FONT-SIZE: 12pt; FONT-FAMILY: bookman old style, new york,
tim=
es, serif"><BR>=0A<DIV style=3D"FONT-SIZE: 12pt; FONT-FAMILY: bookman
old s=
tyle, new york, times, serif"><FONT face=3DTahoma size=3D2>=0A<HR
SIZE=3D1>=
=0A<B><SPAN style=3D"FONT-WEIGHT: bold">From:</SPAN></B> Craig Hancock
<=
[log in to unmask]><BR><B><SPAN style=3D"FONT-WEIGHT:
bold">To:</SPAN></=
B> [log in to unmask]<BR><B><SPAN style=3D"FONT-WEIGHT:
bold">Sent:</=
SPAN></B> Sunday, December 14, 2008 9:20:24 AM<BR><B><SPAN
style=3D"FONT-WE=
IGHT: bold">Subject:</SPAN></B> Re:
Conservatives!<BR></FONT><BR>Bob,<BR>&n=
bsp; I agree with some conservatives much more than I agree with others.
I<=
BR>don't like the views of grammar typical of "progressive"
educators.<BR>T=
his sort of response doesn't help. I don't think "conservative" is
a<BR>bad=
name.<BR> ATEG is a conservative organization. Most of the
conversat=
ion on list is<BR>about whether something is "correct" or about how to
clas=
sify something,<BR>usually using structural or traditional grammar as
the l=
ens. If you are<BR>interested in alternative approaches, as I am, you
can f=
eel somewhat<BR>lonely. It's not just that people disagree with those
views=
,
but that<BR>there's not the sort of robust discussion about them that
ther=
e should<BR>be on a grammar list. As groups go, it's a conservative
group.<=
BR> If that's the case, it would make sense that many people would
wo=
nder<BR>why we need a scope and sequence. Don't they already exist?
Isn't i=
t a<BR>matter of just getting endorsement for the gramamr that's already
ou=
t<BR>there?<BR> I don't agree with that position, but I can
respect i=
t. I can also try<BR>to understand the nature of the difficulties
involved =
in moving forward<BR>with a scope and sequence throught ATEG.<BR>
1) =
NCTE is oppossed to it, and we are an NCTE subgroup.<BR> 2) Most
peop=
le on ATEG adhere to perspectives on gramamr that are<BR>already
somewhat e=
stablished (even if their teaching is not.) Frankly, I<BR>think we would
be=
much better off if we went back to the teaching of<BR>grammar I was
given =
growing up, but we don't necessarily have to do<BR>that. A great
deal has happened since the 1950's, much of it so much<BR>more friendly
to=
applications in reading and writing.<BR><BR>Craig><BR><BR>What
an =
interesting way of characterizing views of grammar that
disagree<BR>> w=
ith your own!<BR>><BR>> Craig writes:<BR>><BR>> My own
tendency=
has been to lobby for new ways of looking at grammar, but<BR>>
AT=
EG has long been an organization made<BR>> up of people with fairly
cons=
ervative (not regressive, not by a long<BR>> shot) views. This
was=
hard on me because I felt I had a lot invested in<BR>> the project,
but=
would be asked to shut out from the conversation the<BR>> new
possibili=
ties in grammar that excite me the most.<BR>><BR>> ****<BR>> Of
co=
urse, there is no hostility in characterizing others views with
the<BR>>=
term "fairly conservative."<BR>><BR>> Craig, I appreciate such an
ho=
nest appraisal of others views of the nature<BR>> of
language.<BR>><BR>> Bob Yates, University of Central
Missouri<BR>>=
;<BR>> To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's
web =
interface<BR>> at:<BR>> <A
href=3D"http://listser=
v.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html" target=3D_blank
rel=3Dnofollow>http://list=
serv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html</A><BR>> and select "Join or leave
th=
e list"<BR>><BR>> Visit ATEG's web site at <A
href=3D"http://ateg.org=
/" target=3D_blank rel=3Dnofollow>http://ateg.org/</A><BR>><BR><BR>To
jo=
in or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web interface
at:<B=
R> <A
href=3D"http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html" t=
arget=3D_blank
rel=3Dnofollow>http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html=
</A><BR>and select "Join or leave the list"<BR><BR>Visit ATEG's web site
at=
<A href=3D"http://ateg.org/" target=3D_blank
rel=3Dnofollow>http://ateg.or=
g/</A><BR></DIV></DIV></DIV>To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please
vis=
it the list's web
interface at: http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html and select
"Jo=
in or leave the list" Visit ATEG's web site at
http://ateg.org/<BR><BR>=0A<=
HR>=0ASend e-mail faster without improving your typing skills. <A
href=3D"h=
ttp://windowslive.com/Explore/hotmail?ocid=3DTXT_TAGLM_WL_hotmail_acq_sp
eed=
_122008" target=3D_blank rel=3Dnofollow>Get your Hotmail=AE account.</A>
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he list" =0A<P>Visit ATEG's web site at
http://ateg.org/</P></DIV></DIV></d=
iv></body></html>
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<p>
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--0-1483397165-1229292218=:13806--
------------------------------
Date: Sun, 14 Dec 2008 18:27:01 -0600
From: Geoffrey Layton <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Re: Engaging in the grammar trenches (was: Conservatives!)
--_ffa8e79f-34aa-45d4-b3ec-2382c9dcda9d_
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"
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Paul - Yes=2C of course you're right! I think that grammar has been so
mar=
ginalized that people don't recognize its vital importance to the entire
ra=
nge of language arts - that which allows you to write also allows you to
re=
ad and all of the other creative acts you mention - including thinking!
In=
fact=2C I've got an upcoming gig to speak at the College English
Associati=
on. Topic - "Thinking in the Context of Grammar"! Should be
interesting. =
Any and all advice accepted!Geoff Layton
Date: Sun=2C 14 Dec 2008 14:03:38 -0800From: [log in to unmask]:
Re: =
Engaging in the grammar trenches (was: Conservatives!)To:
[log in to unmask]
HIO.EDU
Geoff=2C
=20
I think you're right=2C but I'd also add that there's a need for grammar
in=
struction in connection with the other parts of the Language Arts
umbrella =
besides just writing: Reading=2C Listening=2C Speaking=2C and Thinkng.
For =
example=2C I have found many times that grammatical analysis can help
stude=
nts understand literary texts (and have written about this).
=20
Paul "If this were play'd upon a stage now=2C I could condemn it as an
impr=
obable fiction" (_Twelfth Night_ 3.4.127-128).=20
From: Geoffrey Layton <[log in to unmask]>To:
[log in to unmask]
nt: Sunday=2C December 14=2C 2008 12:58:43 PMSubject: Re: Engaging in
the g=
rammar trenches (was: Conservatives!)
From the situation you describe I think has arisen the "grammar in
context"=
crowd=2C which as Martha has pointed out is dedicated to teaching the
same=
old grammar rules=2C but with a new and more "politically correct" name
- =
i.e.=2C one that seems to respond to the NCTE injunction against grammar
in=
struction. The problem as I see it is not so much that students don't
know=
their adverbials from their adjectivals=2C but that they don't know how
to=
use the basic structure/grammar of the language to create the meaning
that=
they for the most part are capable of. I think this goes back to the
prev=
ious discussion where Bob brought up the structural deficiencies of
basic w=
riters and how we as writing teachers have such great difficulties
dealing =
with these problems.Geoff Layton
Date: Sun=2C 14 Dec 2008 08:28:03 -0800From: [log in to unmask]:
Re: =
Engaging in the grammar trenches (was: Conservatives!)To:
[log in to unmask]
HIO.EDU
This reminds me of the rather curious observations I have had over the
past=
ten years or so: Most of my high school English teaching peers have
commen=
ted on the lack of grammar teaching that their students have experienced
(o=
r seem to have lacked the experience of). Yet few of them have the time
or =
the interest to get involved in the conversation (indeed=2C may don't
seem =
to know that the conversation even exists). I know that I have too many
oth=
er pulls on my time and interests to devote as much to these issues as I
wo=
uld like -- and I've been more involved than most of my peers (my long
sile=
nces are due not to a lack of interest=2C but to a lack of time). And
with =
the work load for teachers increasing as it seems to be doing=2C it
doesn't=
look like this will change at any time soon. Also=2C I think most uf us
at=
the secondary level seem to believe (and perhaps rightly) that the
issues =
of grammar (which they see as one of error correction mostly) should
have b=
een dealt with in elementary and middle school. I believe that unless
eleme=
ntary and middle school teachers are recruited more dynamically into
this c=
onversation=2C change can't happen. What are your thoughts &
experiences? =
Paul D.
"If this were play'd upon a stage now=2C I could condemn it as an
improbab=
le fiction" (_Twelfth Night_ 3.4.127-128).=20
From: Craig Hancock <[log in to unmask]>To:
[log in to unmask]: S=
unday=2C December 14=2C 2008 9:20:24 AMSubject: Re: Conservatives!Bob=2C
I=
agree with some conservatives much more than I agree with others.
Idon't l=
ike the views of grammar typical of "progressive" educators.This sort of
re=
sponse doesn't help. I don't think "conservative" is abad name. ATEG is
a =
conservative organization. Most of the conversation on list isabout
whether=
something is "correct" or about how to classify something=2Cusually
using =
structural or traditional grammar as the lens. If you areinterested in
alte=
rnative approaches=2C as I am=2C you can feel somewhatlonely. It's not
just=
that people disagree with those views=2C but thatthere's not the sort
of r=
obust discussion about them that there shouldbe on a grammar list. As
group=
s go=2C it's a conservative group. If that's the case=2C it would make
sen=
se that many people would wonderwhy we need a scope and sequence. Don't
the=
y already exist? Isn't it amatter of just getting endorsement for the
grama=
mr that's already outthere? I don't agree with that position=2C but I
can =
respect it. I can also tryto understand the nature of the difficulties
invo=
lved in moving forwardwith a scope and sequence throught ATEG. 1) NCTE
is =
oppossed to it=2C and we are an NCTE subgroup. 2) Most people on ATEG
adhe=
re to perspectives on gramamr that arealready somewhat established (even
if=
their teaching is not.) Frankly=2C Ithink we would be much better off
if w=
e went back to the teaching ofgrammar I was given growing up=2C but we
don'=
t necessarily have to dothat. A great deal has happened since the
1950's=2C=
much of it so muchmore friendly to applications in reading and
writing.Cra=
ig>What an interesting way of characterizing views of grammar that
disagre=
e> with your own!>> Craig writes:>> My own tendency has been to lobby
for n=
ew ways of looking at grammar=2C but> ATEG has long been an
organization m=
ade> up of people with fairly conservative (not regressive=2C not by a
long=
> shot) views. This was hard on me because I felt I had a lot invested
in>=
the project=2C but would be asked to shut out from the conversation
the> n=
ew possibilities in grammar that excite me the most.>> ****> Of
course=2C t=
here is no hostility in characterizing others views with the> term
"fairly =
conservative.">> Craig=2C I appreciate such an honest appraisal of
others v=
iews of the nature> of language.>> Bob Yates=2C University of Central
Misso=
uri>> To join or leave this LISTSERV list=2C please visit the list's web
in=
terface> at:> http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html> and
selec=
t "Join or leave the list">> Visit ATEG's web site at
http://ateg.org/>To j=
oin or leave this LISTSERV list=2C please visit the list's web interface
at=
: http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.htmland select "Join or
leave=
the list"Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/To join or leave this
LI=
STSERV list=2C please visit the list's web interface at:
http://listserv.mu=
ohio.edu/archives/ateg.html and select "Join or leave the list" Visit
ATEG'=
s web site at http://ateg.org/
Send e-mail faster without improving your typing skills. Get your
Hotmail=
=AE account. To join or leave this LISTSERV list=2C please visit the
list's=
web interface at: http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html and
select=
"Join or leave the list"=20
Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/To join or leave this LISTSERV
lis=
t=2C please visit the list's web interface at:
http://listserv.muohio.edu/a=
rchives/ateg.html and select "Join or leave the list"=20
Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/
_________________________________________________________________
You live life online. So we put Windows on the web.=20
http://clk.atdmt.com/MRT/go/127032869/direct/01/=
To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web
interface
at:
http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html
and select "Join or leave the list"
Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/
--_ffa8e79f-34aa-45d4-b3ec-2382c9dcda9d_
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<body class=3D'hmmessage'>
Paul - Yes=2C of course you're right! =3B I think that grammar
has =
=3Bbeen so marginalized that people don't recognize its vital importance
to=
the entire range of language arts - that which allows you to write also
al=
lows you to read and all of the other =3Bcreative acts =3Byou
menti=
on - including thinking! =3B In fact=2C I've got an upcoming gig to
spe=
ak at the College English Association. Topic - "Thinking in the Context
of =
Grammar"! =3B Should be interesting. =3B Any and all advice
accepte=
d!<BR><BR>Geoff Layton<BR><BR><BR><BR>
<HR id=3DstopSpelling>
Date: Sun=2C 14 Dec 2008 14:03:38 -0800<BR>From:
[log in to unmask]<BR>Subje=
ct: Re: Engaging in the grammar trenches (was: Conservatives!)<BR>To:
ATEG@=
LISTSERV.MUOHIO.EDU<BR><BR>
<STYLE>
.ExternalClass DIV
{=3B}
</STYLE>
<DIV style=3D"FONT-SIZE: 10pt=3B FONT-FAMILY: verdana=2C helvetica=2C
sans-=
serif">
<DIV></DIV>
<DIV>Geoff=2C</DIV>
<DIV> =3B</DIV>
<DIV>I think you're right=2C but I'd also add that there's a need for
gramm=
ar instruction in connection with the other parts of the Language Arts
umbr=
ella besides just writing: Reading=2C Listening=2C Speaking=2C and
Thinkng.=
For example=2C I have found many times that grammatical analysis can
help =
students understand literary texts (and have written about this).</DIV>
<DIV> =3B</DIV>
<DIV>Paul<BR> =3B</DIV>"If this were play'd upon a stage now=2C I
could=
condemn it as an improbable fiction" (_Twelfth Night_ 3.4.127-128).=20
<DIV><BR></DIV>
<DIV style=3D"FONT-SIZE: 10pt=3B FONT-FAMILY: verdana=2C helvetica=2C
sans-=
serif"><BR>
<DIV style=3D"FONT-SIZE: 12pt=3B FONT-FAMILY: times new roman=2C new
york=
=2C times=2C serif"><FONT face=3DTahoma size=3D2>
<HR SIZE=3D1>
<B><SPAN style=3D"FONT-WEIGHT: bold">From:</SPAN></B> Geoffrey Layton
<=
[log in to unmask]>=3B<BR><B><SPAN style=3D"FONT-WEIGHT:
bold">To:<=
/SPAN></B> [log in to unmask]<BR><B><SPAN style=3D"FONT-WEIGHT:
bold"=
>Sent:</SPAN></B> Sunday=2C December 14=2C 2008 12:58:43 PM<BR><B><SPAN
sty=
le=3D"FONT-WEIGHT: bold">Subject:</SPAN></B> Re: Engaging in the grammar
tr=
enches (was: Conservatives!)<BR></FONT><BR>
<STYLE>
.ExternalClass .EC_hmmessage P
{padding:0px=3B}
.ExternalClass body.EC_hmmessage
{font-size:10pt=3Bfont-family:Verdana=3B}
</STYLE>
From the situation you describe I think has arisen the "grammar in
context"=
crowd=2C which as Martha has pointed out is dedicated to teaching the
same=
old grammar rules=2C but with a new and more "politically correct" name
- =
i.e.=2C one that seems to respond to the NCTE injunction against grammar
in=
struction. =3B The problem as I see it is not so much that students
don=
't know their adverbials from their adjectivals=2C but that they don't
know=
how to use the basic structure/grammar of the language to create the
meani=
ng that they for the most part are capable of. =3B I think this goes
ba=
ck to the previous discussion where Bob brought up the structural
deficienc=
ies of basic writers and how we as writing teachers have such great
difficu=
lties dealing with these problems.<BR><BR>Geoff Layton<BR><BR><BR><BR>
<HR id=3DEC_stopSpelling>
Date: Sun=2C 14 Dec 2008 08:28:03 -0800<BR>From:
[log in to unmask]<BR>Subje=
ct: Re: Engaging in the grammar trenches (was: Conservatives!)<BR>To:
ATEG@=
LISTSERV.MUOHIO.EDU<BR><BR>
<STYLE>
.ExternalClass DIV
{=3B}
</STYLE>
<DIV style=3D"FONT-SIZE: 12pt=3B FONT-FAMILY: bookman old style=2C new
york=
=2C times=2C serif">
<DIV></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DVerdana>This reminds me of the rather curious
observation=
s I have had over the past ten years or so: Most of my high school
English =
teaching peers =3Bhave commented on the lack of grammar teaching
that t=
heir students have experienced (or seem to have lacked the experience
of). =
Yet few of them have the time or the interest =3Bto =3Bget
involved=
in the conversation (indeed=2C may don't seem to know that the
conversatio=
n even exists). I know that I have too many other pulls on my time and
inte=
rests to devote as much to these issues as I would like -- and I've been
mo=
re involved than most of my peers (my long silences are due not to a
lack o=
f interest=2C but to a lack of time). And with the work load for
teachers i=
ncreasing as it seems to be doing=2C it doesn't look like this will
change =
at any time soon.</FONT></DIV><FONT
face=3DVerdana></FONT> =3B<BR><FONT=
face=3DVerdana>Also=2C I think most uf us at the secondary level seem
to b=
elieve (and perhaps rightly) that the issues of grammar (which they see
as =
one of error correction mostly) should have been dealt with in
elementary a=
nd middle school. I believe that unless elementary and middle school
teache=
rs are recruited more dynamically into this conversation=2C change can't
ha=
ppen.</FONT><BR><FONT face=3DVerdana></FONT> =3B<BR><FONT
face=3DVerdan=
a>What are your thoughts &=3B experiences? </FONT><BR><FONT
face=3DVerda=
na></FONT> =3B<BR><FONT face=3DVerdana>Paul D.</FONT><BR>
<DIV><BR> =3B</DIV><FONT size=3D2>"If this were play'd upon a stage
now=
=2C I could condemn it as an improbable fiction" (_Twelfth Night_
3.4.127-1=
28).</FONT>=20
<DIV><BR></DIV>
<DIV style=3D"FONT-SIZE: 12pt=3B FONT-FAMILY: bookman old style=2C new
york=
=2C times=2C serif"><BR>
<DIV style=3D"FONT-SIZE: 12pt=3B FONT-FAMILY: bookman old style=2C new
york=
=2C times=2C serif"><FONT face=3DTahoma size=3D2>
<HR SIZE=3D1>
<B><SPAN style=3D"FONT-WEIGHT: bold">From:</SPAN></B> Craig Hancock
<=3Bh=
[log in to unmask]>=3B<BR><B><SPAN style=3D"FONT-WEIGHT:
bold">To:</SPAN><=
/B> [log in to unmask]<BR><B><SPAN style=3D"FONT-WEIGHT:
bold">Sent:<=
/SPAN></B> Sunday=2C December 14=2C 2008 9:20:24 AM<BR><B><SPAN
style=3D"FO=
NT-WEIGHT: bold">Subject:</SPAN></B> Re:
Conservatives!<BR></FONT><BR>Bob=
=2C<BR> =3B I agree with some conservatives much more than I agree
with=
others. I<BR>don't like the views of grammar typical of "progressive"
educ=
ators.<BR>This sort of response doesn't help. I don't think
"conservative" =
is a<BR>bad name.<BR> =3B ATEG is a conservative organization. Most
of =
the conversation on list is<BR>about whether something is "correct" or
abou=
t how to classify something=2C<BR>usually using structural or
traditional g=
rammar as the lens. If you are<BR>interested in alternative
approaches=2C a=
s I am=2C you can feel somewhat<BR>lonely. It's not just that people
disagr=
ee with those views=2C but that<BR>there's not the sort of robust
discussio=
n about them that there should<BR>be on a grammar list. As groups go=2C
it'=
s a conservative group.<BR> =3B If that's the case=2C it would make
sen=
se that many people would wonder<BR>why we need a scope and sequence.
Don't=
they already exist? Isn't it a<BR>matter of just getting endorsement
for t=
he gramamr that's already out<BR>there?<BR> =3B I don't agree with
that=
position=2C but I can respect it. I can also try<BR>to understand the
natu=
re of the difficulties involved in moving forward<BR>with a scope and
seque=
nce throught ATEG.<BR> =3B 1) NCTE is oppossed to it=2C and we are
an N=
CTE subgroup.<BR> =3B 2) Most people on ATEG adhere to perspectives
on =
gramamr that are<BR>already somewhat established (even if their teaching
is=
not.) Frankly=2C I<BR>think we would be much better off if we went back
to=
the teaching of<BR>grammar I was given growing up=2C but we don't
necessar=
ily have to do<BR>that. A great deal has happened since the 1950's=2C
much =
of it so much<BR>more friendly to applications in reading and
writing.<BR><=
BR>Craig>=3B<BR><BR>What an =3B interesting way of characterizing
vie=
ws of grammar that disagree<BR>>=3B with your own!<BR>>=3B<BR>>=3B
Cr=
aig writes:<BR>>=3B<BR>>=3B My own tendency has been to lobby for
new&n=
bsp=3B ways of looking at grammar=2C but<BR>>=3B ATEG has long been an
or=
ganization made<BR>>=3B up of people with fairly conservative (not
regres=
sive=2C not by a long<BR>>=3B shot) views. =3B This was hard on me
be=
cause I felt I had a lot invested in<BR>>=3B the project=2C but would
be =
asked to shut out from the conversation the<BR>>=3B new possibilities
in =
grammar that excite me the most.<BR>>=3B<BR>>=3B ****<BR>>=3B Of
cour=
se=2C there is no hostility in characterizing others views with
the<BR>>=
=3B term "fairly conservative."<BR>>=3B<BR>>=3B Craig=2C I
appreciate s=
uch an honest appraisal of others views of the nature<BR>>=3B of
language=
.<BR>>=3B<BR>>=3B Bob Yates=2C University of Central
Missouri<BR>>=3B=
<BR>>=3B To join or leave this LISTSERV list=2C please visit the
list's w=
eb interface<BR>>=3B at:<BR>>=3B =3B  =3B  =3B <A
href=3D"h=
ttp://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html"
rel=3Dnofollow>http://listser=
v.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html</A><BR>>=3B and select "Join or leave
the=
list"<BR>>=3B<BR>>=3B Visit ATEG's web site at <A
href=3D"http://ateg.=
org/" rel=3Dnofollow>http://ateg.org/</A><BR>>=3B<BR><BR>To join or
leave=
this LISTSERV list=2C please visit the list's web interface
at:<BR> =
=3B  =3B <A href=3D"http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html"
rel=
=3Dnofollow>http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html</A><BR>and
select=
"Join or leave the list"<BR><BR>Visit ATEG's web site at <A
href=3D"http:/=
/ateg.org/" rel=3Dnofollow>http://ateg.org/</A><BR></DIV></DIV></DIV>To
joi=
n or leave this LISTSERV list=2C please visit the list's web interface
at: =
http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html and select "Join or leave
the=
list" Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/<BR><BR>
<HR>
Send e-mail faster without improving your typing skills. <A
href=3D"http://=
windowslive.com/Explore/hotmail?ocid=3DTXT_TAGLM_WL_hotmail_acq_speed_12
200=
8" rel=3Dnofollow>Get your Hotmail=AE account.</A> To join or leave this
LI=
STSERV list=2C please visit the list's web interface at:
http://listserv.mu=
ohio.edu/archives/ateg.html and select "Join or leave the list"=20
Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/<BR></DIV></DIV></DIV>To join
or l=
eave this LISTSERV list=2C please visit the list's web interface at:
http:/=
/listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html and select "Join or leave the
list"=
=20
Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/<BR><br /><hr />You live life
onli=
ne. So we put Windows on the web. <a
href=3D'http://clk.atdmt.com/MRT/go/1=
27032869/direct/01/' target=3D'_new'>Learn more about Windows Live
</a></bo=
dy>
</html>=
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<p>
Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/
--_ffa8e79f-34aa-45d4-b3ec-2382c9dcda9d_--
------------------------------
Date: Sun, 14 Dec 2008 18:28:47 -0600
From: Geoffrey Layton <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Re: Engaging in the grammar trenches (was: Conservatives!)
--_c2e355b1-bd2a-4260-987c-6a175b075e6d_
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
PS: Does our exchange fall into the conservative or the liberal
camp?Geoff=
Layton
=20
PPS: Bob - I'd appreciate your inciteful voice on this. You bring an
acade=
mic bent to the discussion that's valuable.
Date: Sun=2C 14 Dec 2008 14:03:38 -0800From: [log in to unmask]:
Re: =
Engaging in the grammar trenches (was: Conservatives!)To:
[log in to unmask]
HIO.EDU
Geoff=2C
=20
I think you're right=2C but I'd also add that there's a need for grammar
in=
struction in connection with the other parts of the Language Arts
umbrella =
besides just writing: Reading=2C Listening=2C Speaking=2C and Thinkng.
For =
example=2C I have found many times that grammatical analysis can help
stude=
nts understand literary texts (and have written about this).
=20
Paul "If this were play'd upon a stage now=2C I could condemn it as an
impr=
obable fiction" (_Twelfth Night_ 3.4.127-128).=20
From: Geoffrey Layton <[log in to unmask]>To:
[log in to unmask]
nt: Sunday=2C December 14=2C 2008 12:58:43 PMSubject: Re: Engaging in
the g=
rammar trenches (was: Conservatives!)
From the situation you describe I think has arisen the "grammar in
context"=
crowd=2C which as Martha has pointed out is dedicated to teaching the
same=
old grammar rules=2C but with a new and more "politically correct" name
- =
i.e.=2C one that seems to respond to the NCTE injunction against grammar
in=
struction. The problem as I see it is not so much that students don't
know=
their adverbials from their adjectivals=2C but that they don't know how
to=
use the basic structure/grammar of the language to create the meaning
that=
they for the most part are capable of. I think this goes back to the
prev=
ious discussion where Bob brought up the structural deficiencies of
basic w=
riters and how we as writing teachers have such great difficulties
dealing =
with these problems.Geoff Layton
Date: Sun=2C 14 Dec 2008 08:28:03 -0800From: [log in to unmask]:
Re: =
Engaging in the grammar trenches (was: Conservatives!)To:
[log in to unmask]
HIO.EDU
This reminds me of the rather curious observations I have had over the
past=
ten years or so: Most of my high school English teaching peers have
commen=
ted on the lack of grammar teaching that their students have experienced
(o=
r seem to have lacked the experience of). Yet few of them have the time
or =
the interest to get involved in the conversation (indeed=2C may don't
seem =
to know that the conversation even exists). I know that I have too many
oth=
er pulls on my time and interests to devote as much to these issues as I
wo=
uld like -- and I've been more involved than most of my peers (my long
sile=
nces are due not to a lack of interest=2C but to a lack of time). And
with =
the work load for teachers increasing as it seems to be doing=2C it
doesn't=
look like this will change at any time soon. Also=2C I think most uf us
at=
the secondary level seem to believe (and perhaps rightly) that the
issues =
of grammar (which they see as one of error correction mostly) should
have b=
een dealt with in elementary and middle school. I believe that unless
eleme=
ntary and middle school teachers are recruited more dynamically into
this c=
onversation=2C change can't happen. What are your thoughts &
experiences? =
Paul D.
"If this were play'd upon a stage now=2C I could condemn it as an
improbab=
le fiction" (_Twelfth Night_ 3.4.127-128).=20
From: Craig Hancock <[log in to unmask]>To:
[log in to unmask]: S=
unday=2C December 14=2C 2008 9:20:24 AMSubject: Re: Conservatives!Bob=2C
I=
agree with some conservatives much more than I agree with others.
Idon't l=
ike the views of grammar typical of "progressive" educators.This sort of
re=
sponse doesn't help. I don't think "conservative" is abad name. ATEG is
a =
conservative organization. Most of the conversation on list isabout
whether=
something is "correct" or about how to classify something=2Cusually
using =
structural or traditional grammar as the lens. If you areinterested in
alte=
rnative approaches=2C as I am=2C you can feel somewhatlonely. It's not
just=
that people disagree with those views=2C but thatthere's not the sort
of r=
obust discussion about them that there shouldbe on a grammar list. As
group=
s go=2C it's a conservative group. If that's the case=2C it would make
sen=
se that many people would wonderwhy we need a scope and sequence. Don't
the=
y already exist? Isn't it amatter of just getting endorsement for the
grama=
mr that's already outthere? I don't agree with that position=2C but I
can =
respect it. I can also tryto understand the nature of the difficulties
invo=
lved in moving forwardwith a scope and sequence throught ATEG. 1) NCTE
is =
oppossed to it=2C and we are an NCTE subgroup. 2) Most people on ATEG
adhe=
re to perspectives on gramamr that arealready somewhat established (even
if=
their teaching is not.) Frankly=2C Ithink we would be much better off
if w=
e went back to the teaching ofgrammar I was given growing up=2C but we
don'=
t necessarily have to dothat. A great deal has happened since the
1950's=2C=
much of it so muchmore friendly to applications in reading and
writing.Cra=
ig>What an interesting way of characterizing views of grammar that
disagre=
e> with your own!>> Craig writes:>> My own tendency has been to lobby
for n=
ew ways of looking at grammar=2C but> ATEG has long been an
organization m=
ade> up of people with fairly conservative (not regressive=2C not by a
long=
> shot) views. This was hard on me because I felt I had a lot invested
in>=
the project=2C but would be asked to shut out from the conversation
the> n=
ew possibilities in grammar that excite me the most.>> ****> Of
course=2C t=
here is no hostility in characterizing others views with the> term
"fairly =
conservative.">> Craig=2C I appreciate such an honest appraisal of
others v=
iews of the nature> of language.>> Bob Yates=2C University of Central
Misso=
uri>> To join or leave this LISTSERV list=2C please visit the list's web
in=
terface> at:> http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html> and
selec=
t "Join or leave the list">> Visit ATEG's web site at
http://ateg.org/>To j=
oin or leave this LISTSERV list=2C please visit the list's web interface
at=
: http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.htmland select "Join or
leave=
the list"Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/To join or leave this
LI=
STSERV list=2C please visit the list's web interface at:
http://listserv.mu=
ohio.edu/archives/ateg.html and select "Join or leave the list" Visit
ATEG'=
s web site at http://ateg.org/
Send e-mail faster without improving your typing skills. Get your
Hotmail=
=AE account. To join or leave this LISTSERV list=2C please visit the
list's=
web interface at: http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html and
select=
"Join or leave the list"=20
Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/To join or leave this LISTSERV
lis=
t=2C please visit the list's web interface at:
http://listserv.muohio.edu/a=
rchives/ateg.html and select "Join or leave the list"=20
Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/
_________________________________________________________________
Send e-mail anywhere. No map=2C no compass.
http://windowslive.com/Explore/hotmail?ocid=3DTXT_TAGLM_WL_hotmail_acq_a
nyw=
here_122008=
To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web
interface
at:
http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html
and select "Join or leave the list"
Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/
--_c2e355b1-bd2a-4260-987c-6a175b075e6d_
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Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
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<body class=3D'hmmessage'>
PS: =3B Does our =3Bexchange fall into the conservative or the
libe=
ral camp?<BR><BR>Geoff Layton<BR>
 =3B<BR>
PPS: =3B Bob - I'd appreciate your inciteful voice on
this. =3BYou =
bring an academic bent to the discussion that's
valuable.<BR><BR><BR><BR><B=
R>
<HR id=3DstopSpelling>
<BR>
Date: Sun=2C 14 Dec 2008 14:03:38 -0800<BR>From:
[log in to unmask]<BR>Subje=
ct: Re: Engaging in the grammar trenches (was: Conservatives!)<BR>To:
ATEG@=
LISTSERV.MUOHIO.EDU<BR><BR><BR>
<STYLE>
.ExternalClass DIV
{=3B}
</STYLE>
<DIV style=3D"FONT-SIZE: 10pt=3B FONT-FAMILY: verdana=2C helvetica=2C
sans-=
serif">
<DIV></DIV>
<DIV>Geoff=2C</DIV>
<DIV> =3B</DIV>
<DIV>I think you're right=2C but I'd also add that there's a need for
gramm=
ar instruction in connection with the other parts of the Language Arts
umbr=
ella besides just writing: Reading=2C Listening=2C Speaking=2C and
Thinkng.=
For example=2C I have found many times that grammatical analysis can
help =
students understand literary texts (and have written about this).</DIV>
<DIV> =3B</DIV>
<DIV>Paul<BR> =3B</DIV>"If this were play'd upon a stage now=2C I
could=
condemn it as an improbable fiction" (_Twelfth Night_ 3.4.127-128).=20
<DIV><BR></DIV>
<DIV style=3D"FONT-SIZE: 10pt=3B FONT-FAMILY: verdana=2C helvetica=2C
sans-=
serif"><BR>
<DIV style=3D"FONT-SIZE: 12pt=3B FONT-FAMILY: times new roman=2C new
york=
=2C times=2C serif"><FONT face=3DTahoma size=3D2>
<HR SIZE=3D1>
<B><SPAN style=3D"FONT-WEIGHT: bold">From:</SPAN></B> Geoffrey Layton
<=
[log in to unmask]>=3B<BR><B><SPAN style=3D"FONT-WEIGHT:
bold">To:<=
/SPAN></B> [log in to unmask]<BR><B><SPAN style=3D"FONT-WEIGHT:
bold"=
>Sent:</SPAN></B> Sunday=2C December 14=2C 2008 12:58:43 PM<BR><B><SPAN
sty=
le=3D"FONT-WEIGHT: bold">Subject:</SPAN></B> Re: Engaging in the grammar
tr=
enches (was: Conservatives!)<BR></FONT><BR>
<STYLE>
.ExternalClass .EC_hmmessage P
{padding:0px=3B}
.ExternalClass body.EC_hmmessage
{font-size:10pt=3Bfont-family:Verdana=3B}
</STYLE>
From the situation you describe I think has arisen the "grammar in
context"=
crowd=2C which as Martha has pointed out is dedicated to teaching the
same=
old grammar rules=2C but with a new and more "politically correct" name
- =
i.e.=2C one that seems to respond to the NCTE injunction against grammar
in=
struction. =3B The problem as I see it is not so much that students
don=
't know their adverbials from their adjectivals=2C but that they don't
know=
how to use the basic structure/grammar of the language to create the
meani=
ng that they for the most part are capable of. =3B I think this goes
ba=
ck to the previous discussion where Bob brought up the structural
deficienc=
ies of basic writers and how we as writing teachers have such great
difficu=
lties dealing with these problems.<BR><BR>Geoff Layton<BR><BR><BR><BR>
<HR id=3DEC_stopSpelling>
Date: Sun=2C 14 Dec 2008 08:28:03 -0800<BR>From:
[log in to unmask]<BR>Subje=
ct: Re: Engaging in the grammar trenches (was: Conservatives!)<BR>To:
ATEG@=
LISTSERV.MUOHIO.EDU<BR><BR>
<STYLE>
.ExternalClass DIV
{=3B}
</STYLE>
<DIV style=3D"FONT-SIZE: 12pt=3B FONT-FAMILY: bookman old style=2C new
york=
=2C times=2C serif">
<DIV></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DVerdana>This reminds me of the rather curious
observation=
s I have had over the past ten years or so: Most of my high school
English =
teaching peers =3Bhave commented on the lack of grammar teaching
that t=
heir students have experienced (or seem to have lacked the experience
of). =
Yet few of them have the time or the interest =3Bto =3Bget
involved=
in the conversation (indeed=2C may don't seem to know that the
conversatio=
n even exists). I know that I have too many other pulls on my time and
inte=
rests to devote as much to these issues as I would like -- and I've been
mo=
re involved than most of my peers (my long silences are due not to a
lack o=
f interest=2C but to a lack of time). And with the work load for
teachers i=
ncreasing as it seems to be doing=2C it doesn't look like this will
change =
at any time soon.</FONT></DIV><FONT
face=3DVerdana></FONT> =3B<BR><FONT=
face=3DVerdana>Also=2C I think most uf us at the secondary level seem
to b=
elieve (and perhaps rightly) that the issues of grammar (which they see
as =
one of error correction mostly) should have been dealt with in
elementary a=
nd middle school. I believe that unless elementary and middle school
teache=
rs are recruited more dynamically into this conversation=2C change can't
ha=
ppen.</FONT><BR><FONT face=3DVerdana></FONT> =3B<BR><FONT
face=3DVerdan=
a>What are your thoughts &=3B experiences? </FONT><BR><FONT
face=3DVerda=
na></FONT> =3B<BR><FONT face=3DVerdana>Paul D.</FONT><BR>
<DIV><BR> =3B</DIV><FONT size=3D2>"If this were play'd upon a stage
now=
=2C I could condemn it as an improbable fiction" (_Twelfth Night_
3.4.127-1=
28).</FONT>=20
<DIV><BR></DIV>
<DIV style=3D"FONT-SIZE: 12pt=3B FONT-FAMILY: bookman old style=2C new
york=
=2C times=2C serif"><BR>
<DIV style=3D"FONT-SIZE: 12pt=3B FONT-FAMILY: bookman old style=2C new
york=
=2C times=2C serif"><FONT face=3DTahoma size=3D2>
<HR SIZE=3D1>
<B><SPAN style=3D"FONT-WEIGHT: bold">From:</SPAN></B> Craig Hancock
<=3Bh=
[log in to unmask]>=3B<BR><B><SPAN style=3D"FONT-WEIGHT:
bold">To:</SPAN><=
/B> [log in to unmask]<BR><B><SPAN style=3D"FONT-WEIGHT:
bold">Sent:<=
/SPAN></B> Sunday=2C December 14=2C 2008 9:20:24 AM<BR><B><SPAN
style=3D"FO=
NT-WEIGHT: bold">Subject:</SPAN></B> Re:
Conservatives!<BR></FONT><BR>Bob=
=2C<BR> =3B I agree with some conservatives much more than I agree
with=
others. I<BR>don't like the views of grammar typical of "progressive"
educ=
ators.<BR>This sort of response doesn't help. I don't think
"conservative" =
is a<BR>bad name.<BR> =3B ATEG is a conservative organization. Most
of =
the conversation on list is<BR>about whether something is "correct" or
abou=
t how to classify something=2C<BR>usually using structural or
traditional g=
rammar as the lens. If you are<BR>interested in alternative
approaches=2C a=
s I am=2C you can feel somewhat<BR>lonely. It's not just that people
disagr=
ee with those views=2C but that<BR>there's not the sort of robust
discussio=
n about them that there should<BR>be on a grammar list. As groups go=2C
it'=
s a conservative group.<BR> =3B If that's the case=2C it would make
sen=
se that many people would wonder<BR>why we need a scope and sequence.
Don't=
they already exist? Isn't it a<BR>matter of just getting endorsement
for t=
he gramamr that's already out<BR>there?<BR> =3B I don't agree with
that=
position=2C but I can respect it. I can also try<BR>to understand the
natu=
re of the difficulties involved in moving forward<BR>with a scope and
seque=
nce throught ATEG.<BR> =3B 1) NCTE is oppossed to it=2C and we are
an N=
CTE subgroup.<BR> =3B 2) Most people on ATEG adhere to perspectives
on =
gramamr that are<BR>already somewhat established (even if their teaching
is=
not.) Frankly=2C I<BR>think we would be much better off if we went back
to=
the teaching of<BR>grammar I was given growing up=2C but we don't
necessar=
ily have to do<BR>that. A great deal has happened since the 1950's=2C
much =
of it so much<BR>more friendly to applications in reading and
writing.<BR><=
BR>Craig>=3B<BR><BR>What an =3B interesting way of characterizing
vie=
ws of grammar that disagree<BR>>=3B with your own!<BR>>=3B<BR>>=3B
Cr=
aig writes:<BR>>=3B<BR>>=3B My own tendency has been to lobby for
new&n=
bsp=3B ways of looking at grammar=2C but<BR>>=3B ATEG has long been an
or=
ganization made<BR>>=3B up of people with fairly conservative (not
regres=
sive=2C not by a long<BR>>=3B shot) views. =3B This was hard on me
be=
cause I felt I had a lot invested in<BR>>=3B the project=2C but would
be =
asked to shut out from the conversation the<BR>>=3B new possibilities
in =
grammar that excite me the most.<BR>>=3B<BR>>=3B ****<BR>>=3B Of
cour=
se=2C there is no hostility in characterizing others views with
the<BR>>=
=3B term "fairly conservative."<BR>>=3B<BR>>=3B Craig=2C I
appreciate s=
uch an honest appraisal of others views of the nature<BR>>=3B of
language=
.<BR>>=3B<BR>>=3B Bob Yates=2C University of Central
Missouri<BR>>=3B=
<BR>>=3B To join or leave this LISTSERV list=2C please visit the
list's w=
eb interface<BR>>=3B at:<BR>>=3B =3B  =3B  =3B <A
href=3D"h=
ttp://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html"
rel=3Dnofollow>http://listser=
v.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html</A><BR>>=3B and select "Join or leave
the=
list"<BR>>=3B<BR>>=3B Visit ATEG's web site at <A
href=3D"http://ateg.=
org/" rel=3Dnofollow>http://ateg.org/</A><BR>>=3B<BR><BR>To join or
leave=
this LISTSERV list=2C please visit the list's web interface
at:<BR> =
=3B  =3B <A href=3D"http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html"
rel=
=3Dnofollow>http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html</A><BR>and
select=
"Join or leave the list"<BR><BR>Visit ATEG's web site at <A
href=3D"http:/=
/ateg.org/" rel=3Dnofollow>http://ateg.org/</A><BR></DIV></DIV></DIV>To
joi=
n or leave this LISTSERV list=2C please visit the list's web interface
at: =
http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html and select "Join or leave
the=
list" Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/<BR><BR>
<HR>
Send e-mail faster without improving your typing skills. <A
href=3D"http://=
windowslive.com/Explore/hotmail?ocid=3DTXT_TAGLM_WL_hotmail_acq_speed_12
200=
8" rel=3Dnofollow>Get your Hotmail=AE account.</A> To join or leave this
LI=
STSERV list=2C please visit the list's web interface at:
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ohio.edu/archives/ateg.html and select "Join or leave the list"=20
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or l=
eave this LISTSERV list=2C please visit the list's web interface at:
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list"=
=20
Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/<BR><br /><hr />Send e-mail
anywhe=
re. No map=2C no compass. <a
href=3D'http://windowslive.com/Explore/hotmail=
?ocid=3DTXT_TAGLM_WL_hotmail_acq_anywhere_122008' target=3D'_new'>Get
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<p>
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--_c2e355b1-bd2a-4260-987c-6a175b075e6d_--
------------------------------
Date: Sun, 14 Dec 2008 20:40:33 -0500
From: "STAHLKE, HERBERT F" <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Re: Engaging in the grammar trenches (was: Conservatives!)
--_000_0DDF38BA66ECD847B39F1FD4C801D5431163F8F072EMAILBACKEND0_
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Here's a poem by Sir Philip Sydney that I used to use towards the end of
th=
e semester in my undergrad grammar course.
With how Sad Steps, O Moon
Sir Philip Sidney (1554-1586)
With how sad steps, O Moon, thou climb'st the skies,
How silently, and with how wan a face!
What! May it be that even in heav'nly place
That busy archer his sharp arrows tries?
5 Sure, if that long-with-love-acquainted eyes
Can judge of love, thou feel'st a lover's case.
I read it in thy looks, thy languisht grace
To me, that feel the like, thy state descries.
Then, ev'n of fellowship, O Moon, tell me,
10 Is constant love deem'd there but want of wit?
Are beauties there as proud as here they be?
Do they above love to be lov'd, and yet
Those lovers scorn whom that love doth possess?
Do they call virtue there ungratefulness?
I would have them work in small groups to paraphrase the poem, and they
cou=
ld use a dictionary. The poem contains an instance of "that" that would
no=
t occur in Modern English, "if that" in l.5, where "that" is used with a
su=
bordinating conjunction in a way that was common in Early Modern
English. =
I gave them that one, but they had a terrible time with ll.3-4, 7-8,
12-13.=
We would then do a grammatical analysis, looking especially at verb
compl=
ementation (constituents licensed by the verb), order of constituents,
and =
voice. Then they would do another paraphrase, and at that point they
were =
able to delve into the meaning of the poem and the irony Sydney employs.
T=
he poem is challenging, but students frequently commented afterwards how
us=
eful they found grammatical analysis in other poetry they read, and
occasio=
nally in prose. Throughout the semester I had had them find in
newspapers =
and magazines examples of structures and functions we were studying at
that=
time, so they were already beginning to think in terms of applying
grammat=
ical analysis to what they were reading.
Herb
From: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar
[mailto:[log in to unmask]
OHIO.EDU] On Behalf Of Paul E. Doniger
Sent: 2008-12-14 11:28
To: [log in to unmask]
Subject: Re: Engaging in the grammar trenches (was: Conservatives!)
This reminds me of the rather curious observations I have had over the
past=
ten years or so: Most of my high school English teaching peers have
commen=
ted on the lack of grammar teaching that their students have experienced
(o=
r seem to have lacked the experience of). Yet few of them have the time
or =
the interest to get involved in the conversation (indeed, may don't seem
to=
know that the conversation even exists). I know that I have too many
other=
pulls on my time and interests to devote as much to these issues as I
woul=
d like -- and I've been more involved than most of my peers (my long
silenc=
es are due not to a lack of interest, but to a lack of time). And with
the =
work load for teachers increasing as it seems to be doing, it doesn't
look =
like this will change at any time soon.
Also, I think most uf us at the secondary level seem to believe (and
perhap=
s rightly) that the issues of grammar (which they see as one of error
corre=
ction mostly) should have been dealt with in elementary and middle
school. =
I believe that unless elementary and middle school teachers are
recruited m=
ore dynamically into this conversation, change can't happen.
What are your thoughts & experiences?
Paul D.
"If this were play'd upon a stage now, I could condemn it as an
improbable =
fiction" (_Twelfth Night_ 3.4.127-128).
________________________________
From: Craig Hancock <[log in to unmask]>
To: [log in to unmask]
Sent: Sunday, December 14, 2008 9:20:24 AM
Subject: Re: Conservatives!
Bob,
I agree with some conservatives much more than I agree with others. I
don't like the views of grammar typical of "progressive" educators.
This sort of response doesn't help. I don't think "conservative" is a
bad name.
ATEG is a conservative organization. Most of the conversation on list
is
about whether something is "correct" or about how to classify something,
usually using structural or traditional grammar as the lens. If you are
interested in alternative approaches, as I am, you can feel somewhat
lonely. It's not just that people disagree with those views, but that
there's not the sort of robust discussion about them that there should
be on a grammar list. As groups go, it's a conservative group.
If that's the case, it would make sense that many people would wonder
why we need a scope and sequence. Don't they already exist? Isn't it a
matter of just getting endorsement for the gramamr that's already out
there?
I don't agree with that position, but I can respect it. I can also try
to understand the nature of the difficulties involved in moving forward
with a scope and sequence throught ATEG.
1) NCTE is oppossed to it, and we are an NCTE subgroup.
2) Most people on ATEG adhere to perspectives on gramamr that are
already somewhat established (even if their teaching is not.) Frankly, I
think we would be much better off if we went back to the teaching of
grammar I was given growing up, but we don't necessarily have to do
that. A great deal has happened since the 1950's, much of it so much
more friendly to applications in reading and writing.
Craig>
What an interesting way of characterizing views of grammar that
disagree
> with your own!
>
> Craig writes:
>
> My own tendency has been to lobby for new ways of looking at grammar,
bu=
t
> ATEG has long been an organization made
> up of people with fairly conservative (not regressive, not by a long
> shot) views. This was hard on me because I felt I had a lot invested
in
> the project, but would be asked to shut out from the conversation the
> new possibilities in grammar that excite me the most.
>
> ****
> Of course, there is no hostility in characterizing others views with
the
> term "fairly conservative."
>
> Craig, I appreciate such an honest appraisal of others views of the
natur=
e
> of language.
>
> Bob Yates, University of Central Missouri
>
> To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web
interfac=
e
> at:
> http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html
> and select "Join or leave the list"
>
> Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/
>
To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web
interface =
at:
http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html
and select "Join or leave the list"
Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/
To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web
interface =
at: http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html and select "Join or
leave=
the list"
Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/
To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web
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<div class=3DSection1>
<p class=3DMsoNormal><span
style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",=
"sans-serif";
color:#1F497D'>Here’s a poem by Sir Philip Sydney that I used to
use
towards the end of the semester in my undergrad grammar
course.<o:p></o:p><=
/span></p>
<p class=3DMsoNormal><span
style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",=
"sans-serif";
color:#1F497D'><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<h1><span style=3D'font-size:11.0pt'>With how Sad Steps, O
Moon<o:p></o:p><=
/span></h1>
<p class=3DMsoNormal><span
style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Arial","s=
ans-serif"'><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class=3DMsoNormal style=3D'text-indent:.5in'><span
style=3D'font-size:11=
.0pt;
font-family:"Arial","sans-serif"'>Sir Philip Sidney
(1554-1586)<o:p></o:p><=
/span></p>
<p class=3DMsoNormal style=3D'text-indent:.5in'><span
style=3D'font-size:11=
.0pt;
font-family:"Arial","sans-serif"'><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class=3DMsoNormal><span
style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Arial","s=
ans-serif"'><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class=3DMsoNormal style=3D'text-indent:.5in'><span
style=3D'font-size:11=
.0pt;
font-family:"Arial","sans-serif"'>With how sad steps, O Moon, thou
climb’st the skies,<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3DMsoNormal style=3D'text-indent:.5in'><span
style=3D'font-size:11=
.0pt;
font-family:"Arial","sans-serif"'>How silently, and with how wan a
face!<o:=
p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3DMsoNormal style=3D'text-indent:.5in'><span
style=3D'font-size:11=
.0pt;
font-family:"Arial","sans-serif"'>What! May it be that even in
heav’nly place<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3DMsoNormal style=3D'text-indent:.5in'><span
style=3D'font-size:11=
.0pt;
font-family:"Arial","sans-serif"'>That busy archer his sharp arrows
tries?<=
o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3DMsoNormal><span
style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Arial","s=
ans-serif"'>5
Sure,
if that long-with-love-acquainted eyes<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3DMsoNormal style=3D'text-indent:.5in'><span
style=3D'font-size:11=
.0pt;
font-family:"Arial","sans-serif"'>Can judge of love, thou feel’st
a
lover’s case.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3DMsoNormal style=3D'text-indent:.5in'><span
style=3D'font-size:11=
.0pt;
font-family:"Arial","sans-serif"'>I read it in thy looks, thy languisht
gra=
ce<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3DMsoNormal style=3D'text-indent:.5in'><span
style=3D'font-size:11=
.0pt;
font-family:"Arial","sans-serif"'>To me, that feel the like, thy state
desc=
ries.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3DMsoNormal><span
style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Arial","s=
ans-serif"'><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class=3DMsoNormal style=3D'text-indent:.5in'><span
style=3D'font-size:11=
.0pt;
font-family:"Arial","sans-serif"'>Then, ev’n of fellowship, O
Moon, t=
ell
me,<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3DMsoNormal><span
style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Arial","s=
ans-serif"'>10 Is
constant love deem’d there but want of wit?<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3DMsoNormal style=3D'text-indent:.5in'><span
style=3D'font-size:11=
.0pt;
font-family:"Arial","sans-serif"'>Are beauties there as proud as here
they =
be?<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3DMsoNormal style=3D'text-indent:.5in'><span
style=3D'font-size:11=
.0pt;
font-family:"Arial","sans-serif"'>Do they above love to be lov’d,
and=
yet<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3DMsoNormal style=3D'text-indent:.5in'><span
style=3D'font-size:11=
.0pt;
font-family:"Arial","sans-serif"'>Those lovers scorn whom that love doth
possess?<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3DMsoNormal style=3D'text-indent:.5in'><span
style=3D'font-size:11=
.0pt;
font-family:"Arial","sans-serif"'>Do they call virtue there
ungratefulness?=
<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3DMsoNormal><span
style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Arial","s=
ans-serif"'><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class=3DMsoNormal><span
style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Arial","s=
ans-serif"'>I
would have them work in small groups to paraphrase the poem, and they
could=
use
a dictionary. The poem contains an instance of “that”
tha=
t
would not occur in Modern English, “if that” in l.5, where
R=
20;that”
is used with a subordinating conjunction in a way that was common in
Early
Modern English. I gave them that one, but they had a terrible time
wi=
th
ll.3-4, 7-8, 12-13. We would then do a grammatical analysis,
looking
especially at verb complementation (constituents licensed by the verb),
ord=
er
of constituents, and voice. Then they would do another paraphrase,
an=
d at
that point they were able to delve into the meaning of the poem and the
iro=
ny
Sydney employs. The poem is challenging, but students frequently
commented afterwards how useful they found grammatical analysis in other
po=
etry
they read, and occasionally in prose. Throughout the semester I
had h=
ad
them find in newspapers and magazines examples of structures and
functions =
we
were studying at that time, so they were already beginning to think in
term=
s of
applying grammatical analysis to what they were
reading.<o:p></o:p></span><=
/p>
<p class=3DMsoNormal><span
style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Arial","s=
ans-serif"'><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class=3DMsoNormal><span
style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Arial","s=
ans-serif"'>Herb<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3DMsoNormal><span
style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",=
"sans-serif";
color:#1F497D'><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class=3DMsoNormal><span
style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",=
"sans-serif";
color:#1F497D'><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<div>
<div style=3D'border:none;border-top:solid #B5C4DF 1.0pt;padding:3.0pt
0in =
0in 0in'>
<p class=3DMsoNormal><b><span
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma=
","sans-serif"'>From:</span></b><span
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"'> Assembly
for =
the
Teaching of English Grammar [mailto:[log in to unmask]] <b>On
Behalf =
Of </b>Paul
E. Doniger<br>
<b>Sent:</b> 2008-12-14 11:28<br>
<b>To:</b> [log in to unmask]<br>
<b>Subject:</b> Re: Engaging in the grammar trenches (was:
Conservatives!)<=
o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
</div>
<p class=3DMsoNormal><o:p> </o:p></p>
<div>
<div>
<p class=3DMsoNormal><span
style=3D'font-family:"Verdana","sans-serif"'>Thi=
s
reminds me of the rather curious observations I have had over the past
ten
years or so: Most of my high school English teaching peers have
commen=
ted
on the lack of grammar teaching that their students have experienced (or
se=
em
to have lacked the experience of). Yet few of them have the time or the
interest to get involved in the conversation (indeed, may
don't s=
eem
to know that the conversation even exists). I know that I have too many
oth=
er
pulls on my time and interests to devote as much to these issues as I
would
like -- and I've been more involved than most of my peers (my long
silences=
are
due not to a lack of interest, but to a lack of time). And with the work
lo=
ad
for teachers increasing as it seems to be doing, it doesn't look like
this =
will
change at any time soon.</span><span style=3D'font-family:"Bookman Old
Styl=
e","serif"'><o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<p><span style=3D'font-family:"Bookman Old
Style","serif"'> <o:p></o:p=
></span></p>
<p><span style=3D'font-family:"Verdana","sans-serif"'>Also, I think most
uf=
us at
the secondary level seem to believe (and perhaps rightly) that the
issues o=
f
grammar (which they see as one of error correction mostly) should have
been
dealt with in elementary and middle school. I believe that unless
elementar=
y
and middle school teachers are recruited more dynamically into this
conversation, change can't happen.</span><span
style=3D'font-family:"Bookma=
n Old Style","serif"'><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p><span style=3D'font-family:"Bookman Old
Style","serif"'> <o:p></o:p=
></span></p>
<p><span style=3D'font-family:"Verdana","sans-serif"'>What are your
thought=
s
& experiences? </span><span style=3D'font-family:"Bookman Old
Style","s=
erif"'><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p><span style=3D'font-family:"Bookman Old
Style","serif"'> <o:p></o:p=
></span></p>
<p><span style=3D'font-family:"Verdana","sans-serif"'>Paul
D.</span><span
style=3D'font-family:"Bookman Old Style","serif"'><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<div>
<p class=3DMsoNormal><span style=3D'font-family:"Bookman Old
Style","serif"=
'><br>
<o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<p class=3DMsoNormal><span
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Bookman O=
ld Style","serif"'>"If
this were play'd upon a stage now, I could condemn it as an improbable
fiction" (_Twelfth Night_ 3.4.127-128).</span><span
style=3D'font-fami=
ly:
"Bookman Old Style","serif"'> <o:p></o:p></span></p>
<div>
<p class=3DMsoNormal><span style=3D'font-family:"Bookman Old
Style","serif"=
'><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3DMsoNormal><span style=3D'font-family:"Bookman Old
Style","serif"=
'><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<div>
<div class=3DMsoNormal align=3Dcenter style=3D'text-align:center'><span
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"'>
<hr size=3D1 width=3D"100%" align=3Dcenter>
</span></div>
<p class=3DMsoNormal><b><span
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma=
","sans-serif"'>From:</span></b><span
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"'> Craig
Hancock
<[log in to unmask]><br>
<b>To:</b> [log in to unmask]<br>
<b>Sent:</b> Sunday, December 14, 2008 9:20:24 AM<br>
<b>Subject:</b> Re: Conservatives!<br>
</span><span style=3D'font-family:"Bookman Old Style","serif"'><br>
Bob,<br>
I agree with some conservatives much more than I agree with
others. =
I<br>
don't like the views of grammar typical of "progressive"
educator=
s.<br>
This sort of response doesn't help. I don't think
"conservative" =
is a<br>
bad name.<br>
ATEG is a conservative organization. Most of the conversation on
lis=
t is<br>
about whether something is "correct" or about how to classify
something,<br>
usually using structural or traditional grammar as the lens. If you
are<br>
interested in alternative approaches, as I am, you can feel somewhat<br>
lonely. It's not just that people disagree with those views, but
that<br>
there's not the sort of robust discussion about them that there
should<br>
be on a grammar list. As groups go, it's a conservative group.<br>
If that's the case, it would make sense that many people would
wonde=
r<br>
why we need a scope and sequence. Don't they already exist? Isn't it
a<br>
matter of just getting endorsement for the gramamr that's already
out<br>
there?<br>
I don't agree with that position, but I can respect it. I can
also t=
ry<br>
to understand the nature of the difficulties involved in moving
forward<br>
with a scope and sequence throught ATEG.<br>
1) NCTE is oppossed to it, and we are an NCTE subgroup.<br>
2) Most people on ATEG adhere to perspectives on gramamr that
are<br=
>
already somewhat established (even if their teaching is not.) Frankly,
I<br=
>
think we would be much better off if we went back to the teaching of<br>
grammar I was given growing up, but we don't necessarily have to do<br>
that. A great deal has happened since the 1950's, much of it so much<br>
more friendly to applications in reading and writing.<br>
<br>
Craig><br>
<br>
What an interesting way of characterizing views of grammar that
disag=
ree<br>
> with your own!<br>
><br>
> Craig writes:<br>
><br>
> My own tendency has been to lobby for new ways of looking at
grammar, but<br>
> ATEG has long been an organization made<br>
> up of people with fairly conservative (not regressive, not by a
long<b=
r>
> shot) views. This was hard on me because I felt I had a lot
inve=
sted
in<br>
> the project, but would be asked to shut out from the conversation
the<=
br>
> new possibilities in grammar that excite me the most.<br>
><br>
> ****<br>
> Of course, there is no hostility in characterizing others views
with t=
he<br>
> term "fairly conservative."<br>
><br>
> Craig, I appreciate such an honest appraisal of others views of the
na=
ture<br>
> of language.<br>
><br>
> Bob Yates, University of Central Missouri<br>
><br>
> To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web
inter=
face<br>
> at:<br>
> <a
href=3D"http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ate=
g.html"
target=3D"_blank">http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html</a><br>
> and select "Join or leave the list"<br>
><br>
> Visit ATEG's web site at <a href=3D"http://ateg.org/"
target=3D"_blank=
">http://ateg.org/</a><br>
><br>
<br>
To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web
interface =
at:<br>
<a href=3D"http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html"
target=3D"_blank">http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html</a><br>
and select "Join or leave the list"<br>
<br>
Visit ATEG's web site at <a href=3D"http://ateg.org/"
target=3D"_blank">htt=
p://ateg.org/</a><o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
</div>
</div>
<p class=3DMsoNormal>To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit
the =
list's
web interface at: http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html and
select
"Join or leave the list" <o:p></o:p></p>
<p>Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/<o:p></o:p></p>
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--_000_0DDF38BA66ECD847B39F1FD4C801D5431163F8F072EMAILBACKEND0_--
------------------------------
End of ATEG Digest - 13 Dec 2008 to 14 Dec 2008 (#2008-265)
***********************************************************
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