Scott, Herb,
Maybe some history is in order. If the discussion is relating to the 1569 tax roll, the Spanish were in control. This state of control, which began in 1556, could easily be conceived of as occurring in the past (relative to today). I'm not sure that we would call it French control before that time, however: 1384-1477 (Dukes of Burgundy), 1477-1482 (Archduke of Austria), 1482-1506 (Dukes of Burgundy), 1506-1556 (Holy Roman Empire). The French control must be relative to some time period after the Spanish controlled it in 1579, and that latter control virtually ended with Louis XIV assuming the Spanish succession 1702-1714. It became part of Belgium when that country rebelled in 1830. French control was thus at longest from 1702 to 1830. The 330 years previous to 1702 would have been 1472, so it is still foggy to me what is being referred to with that time span.
I do not understand why someone would want to use "remote past" tense in any written work relating to a 1569 tax roll. The temporal stance seems to have been 1830, clearly in the past. Such a stance would suggest the use of a past perfect aspect of the traditional Latinate grammar.
Bruce
-----Original Message-----
From: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar [mailto:[log in to unmask]] On Behalf Of STAHLKE, HERBERT F
Sent: Wednesday, January 20, 2010 9:13 PM
To: [log in to unmask]
Subject: Re: Past perfect?
Scott,
As always with tense and aspect questions, a little more context might clarify the sentence. Certainly "was" would work in the first clause, but the choice between "was" and "had been" depends also on the writer's perspective on the time of these states or events. If the writer's temporal stance is the time of the second clause, 330 years previous, then the past perfect may say what he wants to say. If his temporal stance is today, then the past perfect is expressing its "remote past" function and could be replaced with "was" if specification of remote past is not important to the writer.
At least that's how I read it.
Herb
Herbert F. W. Stahlke, Ph.D.
Emeritus Professor of English
Ball State University
Muncie, IN 47306
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From: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar [[log in to unmask]] On Behalf Of Scott [[log in to unmask]]
Sent: January 20, 2010 9:53 PM
To: [log in to unmask]
Subject: Past perfect?
Please don't shoot me for reentering such a touchy area but, I need comment on the following:
"Politically Artois had only been French control for less than a century and a half and that period had ended 330 years previously." [context is a discussion of a 1569 tax roll of Artois].
I read this sentence and wondered whether the first 'had been' should have been 'was.'
Scott Catledge
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