On the "meaning" issue: Do manipulations of the extent to which a point is presented as "in play," or manipulations of the extent to which a point is foregrounded or backgrounded, count as manipulations of meaning? I can think of ways in which 'although' is quite different from 'but' or 'however', but the easiest ones to get to have to do with how the choice of one of those or another affects information flow (as per one of Craig's earlier posts). The fact that an although-clause can come first allows it to be used as a set-up, for example, in ways that 'but' or 'however' can't. I would count that as meaning, but I know that's a position that not everyone shares (to put it mildly).
If you agree that that is meaning, then you're still left with the question of how important this kind of meaning is, in the context of what we're trying to teach (it could be meaning, but fairly far down the list of things that need to be considered, or it could be at the top). If it's not meaning, though, it's still… something. And it's arguably a something that we may need to consider. If we say it's not meaning, it's "zorb" (or whatever), we still end up needing to ask how important zorb is. If writing that uses both 'but' and 'although' fluently is socially assigned a higher value than writing that only uses 'but', that point has implications regardless of the category names we assign. The question of whether the although/however distinction is one of meaning doesn't necessarily have any implications for whether we need to talk about it, nor does it necessarily affect whether students' not being able to use it (if in fact they are so unable) constitutes a problem. It's more a definitional issue than anything else, although I can certainly empathize with anyone reacting negatively to what seems to them to be a definitional end-run.
In one of those small-world phenomena, Stanley Fish just spoke at my institution, although he managed to do so during a section of grammar that I'm teaching and that I couldn't let go to the presentation (we were videotaping student presentations, so not very re-schedulable). From all accounts, he got lively audience participation from one of his "sentence form" exercises using an 'Even though X, Y' pattern. Of course, I'm not sure how much of that was his ability to do the "I'm Stanley Fish, and you had better want to cooperate!" routine. I can't figure out how to pull that trick off.
--- Bill Spruiell
From: <Hancock>, Craig G <[log in to unmask]<mailto:[log in to unmask]>>
Reply-To: ATEG English Grammar <[log in to unmask]<mailto:[log in to unmask]>>
Date: Tuesday, October 16, 2012 1:23 PM
To: ATEG English Grammar <[log in to unmask]<mailto:[log in to unmask]>>
Subject: Re: The Atlantic Writing Articles
Bob,
What the article points out is that a program which specifically gives students practice in the production of language forms makes them much better writers, even when measured by outsiders, as in Regents exams, which are graded by the state. Perhaps there are better ways to do it. We are a list dedicated to promoting more attention to grammar. This is a program that shows a direct relationship between explicit language instruction and writing improvement. They don’t have a control group, but they have much better outcomes with this approach than with previous approaches. Geoff asked for reaction to the article, and I gave it high praise in part because it reinforces the value of direct grammar instruction. I hope other people on the list take the time to look at this for themselves.
Craig
From: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar [mailto:[log in to unmask]] On Behalf Of Robert Yates
Sent: Tuesday, October 16, 2012 1:10 PM
To: [log in to unmask]<mailto:[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Re: The Atlantic Writing Articles
Craig,
I have no way to question the results of the program in the article. What I question is this claim:
Certain kinds of sentences make certain kinds of meaning possible, and students can’t read or write to the extent that they don’t understand and can’t produce those form/meaning relationships.
As best as I can tell, nothing in that article provides any evidence this claim is true.
And, I suspect there are a lot of people who have insight into why students in poor high schools (in the inner city and in poor rural areas) have such low literacy skills.
Bob Yates
On Tue, Oct 16, 2012 at 11:55 AM, Hancock, Craig G <[log in to unmask]<mailto:[log in to unmask]>> wrote:
Bob,
I don’t know why routine conversations between you and I suddenly erupt into anger. I certainly did not intend personal attack. I said “I don’t think WE have a good handle…”, meaning our institutions, our shared discipline, myself included, ATEG included. Otherwise, why would we have so many dropouts? Why would so many of our students show up to college unable to read and write at a college level? Current practices, for the most part, aren’t working for everyone.
If your experience gives you insights on ways to improve teaching writing, please share them. I don’t mean that as an attack. The problem is much bigger than you and I. When teachers like those at the New Dorp school implement approaches that change their success rate dramatically, we should take that seriously. Those approaches are similar in philosophy to those espoused by Graf and Birkenstein (They Say/I Say) and Stanley Fish. It involves much more explicit attention to how language choice contributes to the effectiveness of text. Since this is a list dedicated to supporting the teaching of grammar, this should be of interest to the list. Since we are a big tent organization, there should be room for differing approaches and different philosophies.
Craig
From: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar [mailto:[log in to unmask]<mailto:[log in to unmask]>] On Behalf Of Robert Yates
Sent: Tuesday, October 16, 2012 10:03 AM
To: [log in to unmask]<mailto:[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Re: The Atlantic Writing Articles
Craig,
I'm sorry I didn't address this issue.
I don’t think we have a good handle on why so many students from our inner city schools fail to learn how to read and write.
I really appreciate being told by someone who has no idea the kinds of students I have taught what I do and don't know. My TA position at the University of Illinois for six years was spent teaching writing to at-risk students who had graduated from Chicago public high schools. One of the requirements was that I had to spend 45 minutes one-on-one with each my students. For over twenty years, I have taught students from Kansas City and St. Louis public schools. However, I also have students from underfunded high schools in what is referred to outstate Missouri. I use Lee Jacobus's A World of Ideas. My students have to read and respond to texts by Emerson, Durkheim, Fromm, Benedict, Adam Smith, Marx, Galbraith, etc.
Thank you for telling me with all my experience that I do not have a handle on the reading problems of students. Believe it or not there are students from underfunded rural high schools that have the same issues of literacy as students from the inner city. Does your failure to note that reflect not having any of those students in your classes?
Bob Yates, University of Central Missouri
On Tue, Oct 16, 2012 at 8:02 AM, Hancock, Craig G <[log in to unmask]<mailto:[log in to unmask]>> wrote:
Bob,
I was equally surprised by the notion that students couldn’t use routine conjunctions effectively. But you are leaving out a relevant part of the text, this on page 7 of the on-line version. “Another teacher devised a quick quiz that required the students to use those conjunctions. To the astonishment of the staff, she reported that a sizable group of students could not use those words effectively.” I work with students from similar backgrounds, but on the college level. By the time they get to me, having earned high school diplomas, their problems are not that severe, but I would hesitate to say they are being dishonest about what they were finding. Nor was I trying to distort the substance of the article. Perhaps overuse of “and” was one of the observations.
I don’t think we have a good handle on why so many students from our inner city schools fail to learn how to read and write. Flowers’ work certainly doesn’t address that. Shaughnessy did, but at a much earlier point in our history, with students who had found their way to college in the earliest years of open admission.
Is grammar caught or taught? How much explicit attention to language is helpful for students who seem to be failing by all our current measures? If a program can successfully help those students, I think we need to take its approaches seriously.
Craig
From: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar [mailto:[log in to unmask]<mailto:[log in to unmask]>] On Behalf Of Robert Yates
Sent: Tuesday, October 16, 2012 12:27 AM
To: [log in to unmask]<mailto:[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Re: The Atlantic Writing Articles
It appears I have a reading problem. Craig tells us:
Believe it or not, the author of the article writes that the teachers found many students couldn't write sentences with simple conjunctions like "but" or "or."
That is hard to believe, so I looked at the article. Here is what I found:
1) A history teacher got more granular. He pointed out that the students’ sentences were short and disjointed. What words, Scharff asked, did kids who wrote solid paragraphs use that the poor writers didn’t? Good essay writers, the history teacher noted, used coordinating conjunctions to link and expand on simple ideas—words like for, and, nor, but,or, yet, and so.
2) The Hochman Program, as it is sometimes called, would not be unfamiliar to nuns who taught in Catholic schools circa 1950. Children do not have to “catch” a single thing. They are explicitly taught how to turn ideas into simple sentences, and how to construct complex sentences from simple ones by supplying the answer to three prompts—but, because, and so. They are instructed on how to use appositive clauses to vary the way their sentences begin.
One HISTORY teacher found weak students did use but or or. No examples are given. By the way, Flower, in her foundational paper on the writer-based texts and reader-based texts found that developing writers overuse AND. It is the weakest connection possible. My weakest college students use AND when a more logical connection would be more appropriate.
In the 1950s children were given prompts that required them use but, because and so.
(An aside: How does any sentence begin with an appositive clause? Can someone give us example of such an sentence?)
I can understand why students with very weak reading ability cannot understand or use the word although. I find NOTHING in the piece (again I may have missed something) that claims these students COULDN'T write sentences with "but" or "or".
Bob Yates, University of Central Missouri
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