Craig, thanks.  Your explanation really helps.

Those abstract verbs can be so hard to talk about.  I can't count the
number of times I find myself discussing with students various possible
senses of "is" . . . and even finding subjects for verbs can sound silly
 ("what's happening in this sentence? . . . ok, now who or what is
'is-ing'?")  And people laughed at Clinton.

OK, so how about these sentences:

1. She made the decision that she would give them chocolate.

The "that" clause here is an appositive even though it cannot be used
by itself:

* She made that she would give them chocolate.

It is a restricted appositive, correct?


2. She was pleased that they gave her chocolate.

(Can anyone tell I'm trying to diet???) This sentence transforms "That
they gave her chocolate pleased her" to the passive voice, with the
"that" clause is also being nominal.

Having been caught off guard yesterday, I am now working through this
whole concept yet again, just to be sure.  :)

Beth



Beth Rapp Young
http://pegasus.cc.ucf.edu/~byoung

University of Central Florida
From Promise to Prominence: Celebrating 40 Years.


>>> [log in to unmask] 3/9/2005 1:30:51 PM >>>
Martha's description is both cogent and clear.  As with much of our
recent discussion , this one centers around both structure and
function.
 A noun clause, as Martha points out, has a different internal
structure
than a relative clause does. (Perhaps the best argument for seeing the
relative "pronoun" as a "pronoun" is its difference from the noun
clause
"that", but it's hard not to say that without anticipating
objections.)
Noun clauses and relative clauses can function in the same slot (as
postnominal modifiers). More often than not, the analysis isn't overly
important.
   I have had good luck with  examples drawn from mental process verbs
that often take noun clauses as direct objects.  I believe that she is
my friend.  My belief that she is my friend is deeply grounded.
Students can see that the noun clause in the second sentence has been
moved intact into this postnominal (appositional) role.
    Lots of times, these noun clauses act to restrict down fairly
abstract verb derived nouns like belief, hope, conclusion, conjecture
and so on.  (His hope that we will come...  His conjecture that the
building will collapse... Her wish that we would stop quarreling...)
If
the noun they are modifying appositionally is already a category of
one,
then the appositional noun clause will be nonrestrictive.  (Her
dearest
hope, that her children would graduate from college, finally came to
pass.)
     These aren't the only ways that noun clause apposition is
generated
or shows up, but it seems to get the idea across fairly successfully
on
first presentation.  Once the students recognize it as a noun clause,
it's easier to see what's happening when we shift it around.
    Because much grammar is still fairly new to me, I can sympathize.
I
remember how hard it was for this distinction to come clear.
   I hope that helps.

Craig

Martha Kolln wrote:

> Beth,
>
> I would add to Bruce's description of the two "that"s:  In the
> relative clause, "that" has a slot to fill in the clause
itself--that
> of subject (and this is always true of the relative pronouns and
> relative adverbs that introduce adjectival clauses: pronouns fill a
> nominal slot or, in the case of the possessive "whose," a determiner
> slot; relative adverbs function as an adverbial in the clause);  in
> the nominal clause, "that" serves only as an introducer, a
> nominalizer, with no function in the clause itself.   Students who
> have learned traditional diagramming can picture the nominalizer
> "that" hovering over the clause, like an outsider; they can picture
> the relative pronoun firmly settled on or attached to the clause's
> main line.
>
> I call the relative-clause "that" a relative pronoun (I've learned
> only recently that this term is debatable); I call the nominalizer
> "that" an expletive, as many traditional grammarians do.
>
> Martha
>
>
>
>
>
>> Beth,
>
>>
>
>> I would like to mention how I approach this with my students.  This
>> may help, though you seem to reach the same point another way.
>
>>
>
>> One function of an adjective is to identify the reference of a
noun.
>> The noun also can serve to help identify the reference of another
>> noun.  This is the appositive.  By the same token the noun clause
and
>> the adjective clause can both have an identifying function.  There
>> are a good number of particular nouns that need further
>> identification, and the noun clause is naturally used with them:
>> fact, claim, rumor, statement, decision, idea, etc.  These all
denote
>> concepts which are potentially worded as sentences.  In such cases
it
>> is possible to express (redundantly) both functions (identifying
>> adjective/statement) by repeating the connective "that."  Hence,
>> "They espoused the belief that is that God exists" has two
>> connectives.  The first "that" is the connective of an adjective
>> clause (relative, pointing to "belief") and the second is the
>> connective of the noun clause.  If you can build this redundant
>> construction logically, then you have the appositive.
>
>> Bruce
>
>>
>> >>> [log in to unmask] 3/9/2005 7:45:48 AM >>>
>
>> Thanks, everyone.  The "which" test does work on sentence 1, but
not
>> sentence 2.  Maybe we idiomatically prefer "the fact that . . . "
or
>> maybe I should have agreed that sentence 2 was an appositive?  I can
see
>> that it's definitely an appositive in the sentence "That fact, that
they
>> didn't like chocolate, surprised her"--but that's not the same
>> sentence.
>>
>> Ultimately, I guess it doesn't matter that much.  These sentences
won't
>> appear on any test--the students wrote the sentences for a
different
>> activity.  I can just agree that sometimes it's really hard to tell
what
>> a clause is doing, just like it's sometimes really hard to tell what
a
>> prepositional phrase is doing, and leave it at that.
>>
>> Thanks,
>>
>> Beth
>>
>> >Here are a couple of example sentences with the suspected
appositives
>> >in brackets:
>> >
>> >1. The book, [that was titled 'Great Expectations',] was a
classic.
>> >
>> >2. The fact [that they didn't like chocolate] surprised her.
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> Beth Rapp Young
>> http://pegasus.cc.ucf.edu/~byoung
<http://pegasus.cc.ucf.edu/%7Ebyoung>
>>
>> University of Central Florida
>> >From Promise to Prominence: Celebrating 40 Years.
>>
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