Herb--
Your last paragraph summarizes it superbly! The last sentence sums it up.
Scott Catledge
---- ATEG automatic digest system <[log in to unmask]> wrote:
> There are 7 messages totaling 5907 lines in this issue.
>
> Topics of the day:
>
> 1. ATEG Conference
> 2. Relevance of Syntax & Semantics: "I'm gonna write me some music about"
> (6)
>
> To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web interface at:
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>
> Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/
>
> ----------------------------------------------------------------------
>
> Date: Wed, 13 Aug 2014 11:36:21 +0000
> From: Kathleen Johnson <[log in to unmask]>
> Subject: ATEG Conference
>
> The Twenty-Fifth Annual Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar Conference:
> ATEG 25 – Rising to New Heights in Grammar Teaching will be held at the University of Colorado, Colorado Springs on September 5-6. Conference materials are available at the ATEG website http://www.ateg.org/ If you are attending, there is still time to register for the optional trip up Pikes Peak on the Cog Railway. To make reservations for the trip, please contact [log in to unmask]<mailto:[log in to unmask]> by August 20.
>
> All the best,
> Kathleen Johnson
> English Department
> UCCS
>
> To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web interface at:
> http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html
> and select "Join or leave the list"
>
> Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Date: Wed, 13 Aug 2014 07:58:36 -0700
> From: "[log in to unmask]" <[log in to unmask]>
> Subject: Re: Relevance of Syntax & Semantics: "I'm gonna write me some music about"
>
> Herbert,
> Please help with the following:
>
> Is this grammatically wrong?
>
> "Running errands, doing the laundry, walking the dogs--ready for this day to be over."
>
> Thanks!
> --------------------------------------------
> On Fri, 7/11/14, Stahlke, Herbert <[log in to unmask]> wrote:
>
> Subject: Re: Relevance of Syntax & Semantics: "I'm gonna write me some music about"
> To: [log in to unmask]
> Date: Friday, July 11, 2014, 11:43 AM
>
> Â Â Â Â
> Â Â Â <[log in to unmask]>,<[log in to unmask]>
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>
> I'd like to take Craig's thoughts a step further. As
> one who began his lin=
> guistic life doing field work on languages he knew little
> about, I'm sensit=
> ive to the influence a standard orthography has on our
> analyses. Suppose y=
> ou were doing field work on English with no orthography and
> little other in=
> formation to rely on--or be misled by. When you hear
> /aimn@go/ you would b=
> y no stretch of the imagination connect that to "I am going
> to go."Â Rather=
> , you'd identify the first person singular subject pronoun,
> the /m/ perhaps=
> marking progressive aspect (although you'd properly have
> doubts about that=
> conclusion), and the /n@/ as some sort of future or
> intentional marker wor=
> thy of considerably more research. Maybe, after
> comparing a number of dial=
> ects you might come up with a historical internal
> reconstruction that relat=
> ed the form to "am going to," but that would have about as
> much bearing on =
> your synchronic grammatical description as the equally
> historical discovery=
> that the -t of "height" and the -th of "width" are the same
> thing.
>
>
> I fear sometimes that the extent to which our descriptions
> look like our or=
> thography or our grammatical traditions, they are not
> evidence-based. The =
> fact is that the results of grammaticalization are
> frequently not recoverab=
> le except by diligent study by trained grammarians; they
> remain opaque to n=
> ormal native speakers.
>
>
> Herb
>
>
>
> Herbert F. W. Stahlke, Ph.D.
> Emeritus Professor of English
> Ball State University
> Muncie, INÂ 47306
> [log in to unmask]
> ________________________________
> From: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar <[log in to unmask]
> DU> on behalf of Hancock, Craig G <[log in to unmask]>
> Sent: Friday, July 11, 2014 10:13 AM
> To: [log in to unmask]
> Subject: Re: Relevance of Syntax & Semantics: "I'm gonna
> write me some musi=
> c about"
>
> Bob,
> Â Â Phonetic reduction is a dynamic process
> directly related to frequency. =
> Since =93going to=94 can now combine in auxiliary like ways
> with main verbs=
> , its use has dramatically expanded. Frequency of use
> correlates well with =
> phonetic reduction. It=92s an observation about how language
> shifts in form=
> as it takes on new (expanded) function. Want to has
> expanded range of use =
> in the same way. The same patterns are at work in its
> reduction.The consens=
> us seems to be that it has modal like qualities.
> Â Â Biologists make observations about form all
> the time without thinking o=
> f life itself as a formal system. What we need, I think, is
> the equivalent =
> of an anatomy and physiology. In the world of biology, the
> two are dynamica=
> lly connected. No one would argue (scientifically) that
> biological forms ar=
> e independent of function and no one would propose that
> forms are unimporta=
> nt.
> Â Â In the biological world, it=92s hard to draw
> strict clear lines between=
> categories in part because adaptation is constant.
> Bybee=92s point=97and s=
> he=92s not the only one making it=97is that language is more
> like biology t=
> han it is like physics and chemistry. In some ways, this is
> a renewed inter=
> est in empirical observation. This is certainly not a
> retreat from form.
>
> Craig
>
> From: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar
> [mailto:[log in to unmask]
> AMIOH.EDU] On Behalf Of Bob Yates
> Sent: Thursday, July 10, 2014 6:16 PM
> To: [log in to unmask]
> Subject: Re: Relevance of Syntax & Semantics: "I'm gonna
> write me some musi=
> c about"
>
> I=92m confused by the following observation from Craig.
>
>
>
> Sent from Windows Mail
>
> From: Hancock, Craig G<mailto:[log in to unmask]>
> Sent: =FDThursday=FD, =FDJuly=FD =FD10=FD, =FD2014
> =FD2=FD:=FD06=FD =FDPM
> To: [log in to unmask]<mailto:[log in to unmask]>
>
>
> As Bybee points out, the kind of phonetic reduction we get
> with 'gonna' and=
> oughtta' is typical of grammaticalization. We don't say
> "I'm gonna New Yor=
> k" for "I'm going to New York," but we do say "I'm gonna
> take the train to =
> New York" or "It's gonna rain." We only use it for
> expressions of intention=
> and prediction, which are modal in function. This would be
> a good formal a=
> rgument for "going to" functioning as a constituent group
> when modal functi=
> ons are carried out, but not for physical movement: going
> plus to New York.
>
>
>
> Now, if I understand Craig correctly, language is not a
> formal system, yet =
> he just made a formal distinction between =93going to=94
> verb vs.=94 going =
> to=94 location. It seems to me that we are dealing
> with two different to=
> =92s. The to in =93going to=94 marks a verb and the to
> in making a locatio=
> n is a preposition.
>
>
>
> By the way, gonna reduction is also reflected in wanna.
>
>
>
> Bob Yates, University of Central Missouri
>
> --_000_140509342553356225bsuedu_
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> style=3D"font-size:12pt;color:#000000;backgro=
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> <p>I'd like to take Craig's thoughts a step further.
> As one who began=
> his linguistic life doing field work on languages he knew
> little about, I'=
> m sensitive to the influence a standard orthography has on
> our analyses. &n=
> bsp;Suppose you were doing field work on English
> with no orthography and little other information to rely
> on--or be misled =
> by. When you hear /aimn@go/ you would by no
> stretch of the imaginatio=
> n connect that to "I am going to go."
> Rather, you'd identif=
> y the first person singular subject pronoun, the /m/
> perhaps marking progressive aspect (although you'd
> properly have doub=
> ts about that conclusion), and the /n@/ as some sort of
> future or intention=
> al marker worthy of considerably more research.
> Maybe, after comparin=
> g a number of dialects you might come up with
> a historical internal reconstruction that related the form
> to "am goi=
> ng to," but that would have about as much bearing
> on your synchronic g=
> rammatical description as the equally historical discovery
> that the -t of &=
> quot;height" and the -th of
> "width" are the same
> thing. </p>
> <p><br>
> </p>
> <p>I fear sometimes that the extent to which our
> descriptions look like our=
> orthography or our grammatical traditions, they are not
> evidence-based. &n=
> bsp;The fact is that the results of grammaticalization are
> frequently not r=
> ecoverable except by diligent study by
> trained grammarians; they remain opaque to normal native
> speakers.<br>
> </p>
> <p><br>
> </p>
> <p>Herb <br>
> </p>
> <div>
> <p><br>
> </p>
> <p><br>
> </p>
> <div class=3D"BodyFragment"><font size=3D"2">
> <div class=3D"PlainText">Herbert F. W. Stahlke,
> Ph.D.<br>
> Emeritus Professor of English<br>
> Ball State University<br>
> Muncie, IN 47306<br>
> [log in to unmask]</div>
> </font></div>
> </div>
> <div style=3D"color: rgb(33, 33, 33);">
> <hr tabindex=3D"-1" style=3D"display:inline-block;
> width:98%">
> <div id=3D"divRplyFwdMsg" dir=3D"ltr"><font
> face=3D"Calibri, sans-serif" co=
> lor=3D"#000000"
> style=3D"font-size:11pt"><b>From:</b>
> Assembly for the Teac=
> hing of English Grammar <[log in to unmask]>
> on behalf of Hanc=
> ock, Craig G <[log in to unmask]><br>
> <b>Sent:</b> Friday, July 11, 2014 10:13
> AM<br>
> <b>To:</b> [log in to unmask]<br>
> <b>Subject:</b> Re: Relevance of Syntax
> & Semantics: "I'm gonna wr=
> ite me some music about"</font>
> <div> </div>
> </div>
> <div>
> <div class=3D"WordSection1">
> <p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span
> style=3D"font-size:11.0pt; font-family:"C=
> alibri","sans-serif";
> color:#1F497D">Bob,</span></p>
> <p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span
> style=3D"font-size:11.0pt; font-family:"C=
> alibri","sans-serif";
> color:#1F497D"> Phon=
> etic reduction is a dynamic process directly related to
> frequency. Since =
> =93going to=94 can now combine in auxiliary like ways with
> main verbs, its =
> use
> has dramatically expanded. Frequency of use correlates well
> with phonetic =
> reduction. It=92s an observation about how language shifts
> in form as it ta=
> kes on new (expanded) function.
> <i>Want to</i> has expanded range of use in the
> same way. The same patterns=
> are at work in its reduction.The consensus seems to be that
> it has modal l=
> ike qualities.</span></p>
> <p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span
> style=3D"font-size:11.0pt; font-family:"C=
> alibri","sans-serif";
> color:#1F497D"> Biol=
> ogists make observations about form all the time without
> thinking of life i=
> tself as a formal system. What we need, I think, is the
> equivalent of an
> anatomy and physiology. In the world of biology, the two
> are dynamically c=
> onnected. No one would argue (scientifically) that
> biological forms are ind=
> ependent of function and no one would propose that forms are
> unimportant.
> </span></p>
> <p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span
> style=3D"font-size:11.0pt; font-family:"C=
> alibri","sans-serif";
> color:#1F497D">  =
> ;In the biological world, it=92s hard to draw strict clear
> lines between ca=
> tegories in part because adaptation is constant. Bybee=92s
> point=97and she=
> =92s not the
> only one making it=97is that language is more like biology
> than it is like=
> physics and chemistry. In some ways, this is a renewed
> interest in empiric=
> al observation. This is certainly not a retreat from form.
> </span></p>
> <p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span
> style=3D"font-size:11.0pt; font-family:"C=
> alibri","sans-serif";
> color:#1F497D"> </span></p>
> <p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span
> style=3D"font-size:11.0pt; font-family:"C=
> alibri","sans-serif";
> color:#1F497D">Craig</span></p>
> <p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span
> style=3D"font-size:11.0pt; font-family:"C=
> alibri","sans-serif";
> color:#1F497D"> </span></p>
> <div>
> <div style=3D"border:none; border-top:solid #B5C4DF
> 1.0pt; padding:3.0pt 0i=
> n 0in 0in">
> <p class=3D"MsoNormal"><b><span
> style=3D"font-size:10.0pt; font-family:&quo=
> t;Tahoma","sans-serif"">From:</span></b><span
> style=3D"font-=
> size:10.0pt;
> font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"">
> Assemb=
> ly for the Teaching of English Grammar [mailto:[log in to unmask]]
> <b>On Behalf Of </b>Bob Yates<br>
> <b>Sent:</b> Thursday, July 10, 2014 6:16
> PM<br>
> <b>To:</b> [log in to unmask]<br>
> <b>Subject:</b> Re: Relevance of Syntax
> & Semantics: "I'm gonna wr=
> ite me some music about"</span></p>
> </div>
> </div>
> <p class=3D"MsoNormal"> </p>
> <div>
> <div>
> <p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span
> style=3D"font-family:"Calibri","=
> ;sans-serif"">I=92m confused by the following
> observation from Craig.<=
> /span></p>
> </div>
> <div>
> <p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span
> style=3D"font-family:"Calibri","=
> ;sans-serif""> </span></p>
> </div>
> <div>
> <p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span
> style=3D"font-family:"Calibri","=
> ;sans-serif""> </span></p>
> </div>
> <div>
> <div>
> <p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span
> style=3D"font-family:"Calibri","=
> ;sans-serif""> </span></p>
> </div>
> <div>
> <p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span
> style=3D"font-family:"Calibri","=
> ;sans-serif"">Sent from Windows
> Mail</span></p>
> </div>
> <div>
> <p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span
> style=3D"font-family:"Calibri","=
> ;sans-serif""> </span></p>
> </div>
> </div>
> <div style=3D"border:none; border-top:solid #E5E5E5
> 1.0pt; padding:4.0pt 0i=
> n 0in 0in">
> <div>
> <p class=3D"MsoNormal"><b><span
> style=3D"font-family:"Calibri",&q=
> uot;sans-serif";
> letter-spacing:.25pt">From:</span></b><span
> style=3D"=
> font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";
> letter-spacing:.25p=
> t"> <a href=3D"mailto:[log in to unmask]"
> target=3D"_parent">Hancock,=
> Craig G</a><br>
> <b>Sent:</b> =FDThursday=FD, =FDJuly=FD
> =FD10=FD, =FD2014 =FD2=FD:=FD0=
> 6=FD =FDPM<br>
> <b>To:</b> <a href=3D"mailto:[log in to unmask]"
> target=3D"_par=
> ent">[log in to unmask]</a></span><span
> style=3D"font-family:"C=
> alibri","sans-serif""></span></p>
> </div>
> </div>
> <div>
> <p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span
> style=3D"font-family:"Calibri","=
> ;sans-serif""> </span></p>
> </div>
> <div>
> <div id=3D"OWAFontStyleDivID">
> <p style=3D"background:white"><em><span
> style=3D"font-family:"Calibri&=
> quot;,"sans-serif"; color:black">As
> Bybee points out, t</span></e=
> m><span
> style=3D"font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";
> co=
> lor:black">he kind of phonetic reduction we get with
> 'gonna' and oughtta' i=
> s typical
> of grammaticalization. We don't say "I'm gonna New
> York" for &qu=
> ot;I'm going to New York," but we do say
> "I'm gonna take the trai=
> n to New York" or "It's gonna
> rain." We only use it for expr=
> essions of intention and prediction, which are modal in
> function. This woul=
> d
> be a good formal argument for "going to"
> functioning as a consti=
> tuent group when modal functions are carried out, but not
> for physical move=
> ment:
> <em><span
> style=3D"font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif"">=
> going</span></em> plus <em><span
> style=3D"font-family:"Calibri",&=
> quot;sans-serif"">to New
> York</span></em>. </span></p>
> <p style=3D"background:white"><span
> style=3D"font-family:"Calibri"=
> ;,"sans-serif";
> color:black"> </span></p>
> <p style=3D"background:white"><span
> style=3D"font-family:"Calibri"=
> ;,"sans-serif"; color:black">Now, if I
> understand Craig correctly=
> , language is not a formal system, yet he just made a formal
> distinction be=
> tween =93going to=94 verb vs.=94 going to=94
> location. It seems
> to me that we are dealing with two different
> to=92s. The to in =
> =93going to=94 marks a verb and the to in
> making a location is a&=
> nbsp;preposition.
> </span></p>
> <p style=3D"background:white"><span
> style=3D"font-family:"Calibri"=
> ;,"sans-serif";
> color:black"> </span></p>
> <p style=3D"background:white"><span
> style=3D"font-family:"Calibri"=
> ;,"sans-serif"; color:black">By the
> way, gonna reduction is =
> also reflected in wanna.
> </span></p>
> <p style=3D"background:white"><span
> style=3D"font-family:"Calibri"=
> ;,"sans-serif";
> color:black"> </span></p>
> <p style=3D"background:white"><span
> style=3D"font-family:"Calibri"=
> ;,"sans-serif"; color:black">Bob Yates,
> University of Central Mis=
> souri </span></p>
> </div>
> </div>
> </div>
> </div>
> </div>
> </div>
> </div>
> </body>
> </html>
>
> --_000_140509342553356225bsuedu_--
>
> To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's
> web interface at:
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> and select "Join or leave the list"
>
> Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/
>
>
> To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web interface at:
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> and select "Join or leave the list"
>
> Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Date: Wed, 13 Aug 2014 15:47:07 +0000
> From: "Stahlke, Herbert" <[log in to unmask]>
> Subject: Re: Relevance of Syntax & Semantics: "I'm gonna write me some music about"
>
> I'd say it's a matter of register. It's certainly not formal academic writing. The average freshman comp instructor would probably label it a sentence fragment. Hoowever, in dialog or in informal writing of other sorts it strikes me as both grammatical and apt. It has a clear topic-comment structure. Before the dash is background information, and after the dash is the predicate. Omission of subject pronoun and Be verb is a marker of informal, casual style.
>
> Herb
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar [mailto:[log in to unmask]] On Behalf Of [log in to unmask]
> Sent: Wednesday, August 13, 2014 10:59 AM
> To: [log in to unmask]
> Subject: Re: Relevance of Syntax & Semantics: "I'm gonna write me some music about"
>
> Herbert,
> Please help with the following:
>
> Is this grammatically wrong?
>
> "Running errands, doing the laundry, walking the dogs--ready for this day to be over."
>
> Thanks!
> --------------------------------------------
> On Fri, 7/11/14, Stahlke, Herbert <[log in to unmask]> wrote:
>
> Subject: Re: Relevance of Syntax & Semantics: "I'm gonna write me some music about"
> To: [log in to unmask]
> Date: Friday, July 11, 2014, 11:43 AM
>
> Â Â Â Â
> Â Â Â <[log in to unmask]>,<[log in to unmask]>
> In-Reply-To: <[log in to unmask]>
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> I'd like to take Craig's thoughts a step further. As one who began his lin= guistic life doing field work on languages he knew little about, I'm sensit= ive to the influence a standard orthography has on our analyses. Suppose y= ou were doing field work on English with no orthography and little other in= formation to rely on--or be misled by. When you hear /aimn@go/ you would b= y no stretch of the imagination connect that to "I am going to go." Rather= , you'd identify the first person singular subject pronoun, the /m/ perhaps=
> marking progressive aspect (although you'd properly have doubts about that=
> conclusion), and the /n@/ as some sort of future or intentional marker wor= thy of considerably more research. Maybe, after comparing a number of dial= ects you might come up with a historical internal reconstruction that relat= ed the form to "am going to," but that would have about as much bearing on = your synchronic grammatical description as the equally historical discovery=
> that the -t of "height" and the -th of "width" are the same thing.
>
>
> I fear sometimes that the extent to which our descriptions look like our or= thography or our grammatical traditions, they are not evidence-based. The = fact is that the results of grammaticalization are frequently not recoverab= le except by diligent study by trained grammarians; they remain opaque to n= ormal native speakers.
>
>
> Herb
>
>
>
> Herbert F. W. Stahlke, Ph.D.
> Emeritus Professor of English
> Ball State University
> Muncie, INÂ 47306
> [log in to unmask]
> ________________________________
> From: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar <[log in to unmask] DU> on behalf of Hancock, Craig G <[log in to unmask]>
> Sent: Friday, July 11, 2014 10:13 AM
> To: [log in to unmask]
> Subject: Re: Relevance of Syntax & Semantics: "I'm gonna write me some musi= c about"
>
> Bob,
> Â Â Phonetic reduction is a dynamic process directly related to frequency. = Since =93going to=94 can now combine in auxiliary like ways with main verbs= , its use has dramatically expanded. Frequency of use correlates well with = phonetic reduction. It=92s an observation about how language shifts in form=
> as it takes on new (expanded) function. Want to has expanded range of use = in the same way. The same patterns are at work in its reduction.The consens= us seems to be that it has modal like qualities.
> Â Â Biologists make observations about form all the time without thinking o= f life itself as a formal system. What we need, I think, is the equivalent = of an anatomy and physiology. In the world of biology, the two are dynamica= lly connected. No one would argue (scientifically) that biological forms ar= e independent of function and no one would propose that forms are unimporta= nt.
> Â Â In the biological world, it=92s hard to draw strict clear lines between=
> categories in part because adaptation is constant.
> Bybee=92s point=97and s=
> he=92s not the only one making it=97is that language is more like biology t= han it is like physics and chemistry. In some ways, this is a renewed inter= est in empirical observation. This is certainly not a retreat from form.
>
> Craig
>
> From: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar [mailto:[log in to unmask] AMIOH.EDU] On Behalf Of Bob Yates
> Sent: Thursday, July 10, 2014 6:16 PM
> To: [log in to unmask]
> Subject: Re: Relevance of Syntax & Semantics: "I'm gonna write me some musi= c about"
>
> I=92m confused by the following observation from Craig.
>
>
>
> Sent from Windows Mail
>
> From: Hancock, Craig G<mailto:[log in to unmask]>
> Sent: =FDThursday=FD, =FDJuly=FD =FD10=FD, =FD2014 =FD2=FD:=FD06=FD =FDPM
> To: [log in to unmask]<mailto:[log in to unmask]>
>
>
> As Bybee points out, the kind of phonetic reduction we get with 'gonna' and=
> oughtta' is typical of grammaticalization. We don't say "I'm gonna New Yor= k" for "I'm going to New York," but we do say "I'm gonna take the train to = New York" or "It's gonna rain." We only use it for expressions of intention=
> and prediction, which are modal in function. This would be a good formal a= rgument for "going to" functioning as a constituent group when modal functi= ons are carried out, but not for physical movement: going plus to New York.
>
>
>
> Now, if I understand Craig correctly, language is not a formal system, yet = he just made a formal distinction between =93going to=94 verb vs.=94 going =
> to=94 location. It seems to me that we are dealing with two different to= =92s. The to in =93going to=94 marks a verb and the to in making a locatio= n is a preposition.
>
>
>
> By the way, gonna reduction is also reflected in wanna.
>
>
>
> Bob Yates, University of Central Missouri
>
> --_000_140509342553356225bsuedu_
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> style=3D"display:none"><!-- p { margin-top: 0px; m=
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> line-height: 115%; font-=
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> style=3D"font-size:12pt;color:#000000;backgro=
> und-color:#FFFFFF;font-family:Calibri,Arial,Helvetica,sans-serif;">
> <p>I'd like to take Craig's thoughts a step further.
> As one who began=
> his linguistic life doing field work on languages he knew little about, I'= m sensitive to the influence a standard orthography has on our analyses. &n= bsp;Suppose you were doing field work on English
> with no orthography and little other information to rely on--or be misled = by. When you hear /aimn@go/ you would by no stretch of the imaginatio= n connect that to "I am going to go." Rather, you'd identif= y the first person singular subject pronoun, the /m/
> perhaps marking progressive aspect (although you'd properly have doub= ts about that conclusion), and the /n@/ as some sort of future or intention= al marker worthy of considerably more research.
> Maybe, after comparin=
> g a number of dialects you might come up with
> a historical internal reconstruction that related the form to "am goi= ng to," but that would have about as much bearing on your synchronic g= rammatical description as the equally historical discovery that the -t of &= quot;height" and the -th of "width" are the same
> thing. </p>
> <p><br>
> </p>
> <p>I fear sometimes that the extent to which our descriptions look like our=
> orthography or our grammatical traditions, they are not evidence-based. &n= bsp;The fact is that the results of grammaticalization are frequently not r= ecoverable except by diligent study by
> trained grammarians; they remain opaque to normal native speakers.<br> </p> <p><br> </p> <p>Herb <br> </p> <div> <p><br> </p> <p><br> </p> <div class=3D"BodyFragment"><font size=3D"2"> <div class=3D"PlainText">Herbert F. W. Stahlke, Ph.D.<br> Emeritus Professor of English<br> Ball State University<br> Muncie, IN 47306<br> [log in to unmask]</div> </font></div> </div> <div style=3D"color: rgb(33, 33, 33);"> <hr tabindex=3D"-1" style=3D"display:inline-block; width:98%"> <div id=3D"divRplyFwdMsg" dir=3D"ltr"><font face=3D"Calibri, sans-serif" co= lor=3D"#000000"
> style=3D"font-size:11pt"><b>From:</b>
> Assembly for the Teac=
> hing of English Grammar <[log in to unmask]> on behalf of Hanc= ock, Craig G <[log in to unmask]><br> <b>Sent:</b> Friday, July 11, 2014 10:13 AM<br> <b>To:</b> [log in to unmask]<br> <b>Subject:</b> Re: Relevance of Syntax & Semantics: "I'm gonna wr= ite me some music about"</font> <div> </div> </div> <div> <div class=3D"WordSection1"> <p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt; font-family:"C= alibri","sans-serif";
> color:#1F497D">Bob,</span></p>
> <p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span
> style=3D"font-size:11.0pt; font-family:"C= alibri","sans-serif";
> color:#1F497D"> Phon= etic reduction is a dynamic process directly related to frequency. Since = =93going to=94 can now combine in auxiliary like ways with main verbs, its = use
> has dramatically expanded. Frequency of use correlates well with phonetic = reduction. It=92s an observation about how language shifts in form as it ta= kes on new (expanded) function.
> <i>Want to</i> has expanded range of use in the same way. The same patterns=
> are at work in its reduction.The consensus seems to be that it has modal l= ike qualities.</span></p> <p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt; font-family:"C= alibri","sans-serif";
> color:#1F497D"> Biol= ogists make observations about form all the time without thinking of life i= tself as a formal system. What we need, I think, is the equivalent of an
> anatomy and physiology. In the world of biology, the two are dynamically c= onnected. No one would argue (scientifically) that biological forms are ind= ependent of function and no one would propose that forms are unimportant.
> </span></p>
> <p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span
> style=3D"font-size:11.0pt; font-family:"C= alibri","sans-serif";
> color:#1F497D">  =
> ;In the biological world, it=92s hard to draw strict clear lines between ca= tegories in part because adaptation is constant. Bybee=92s point=97and she= =92s not the
> only one making it=97is that language is more like biology than it is like=
> physics and chemistry. In some ways, this is a renewed interest in empiric= al observation. This is certainly not a retreat from form.
> </span></p>
> <p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span
> style=3D"font-size:11.0pt; font-family:"C= alibri","sans-serif";
> color:#1F497D"> </span></p>
> <p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span
> style=3D"font-size:11.0pt; font-family:"C= alibri","sans-serif";
> color:#1F497D">Craig</span></p>
> <p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span
> style=3D"font-size:11.0pt; font-family:"C= alibri","sans-serif";
> color:#1F497D"> </span></p>
> <div>
> <div style=3D"border:none; border-top:solid #B5C4DF 1.0pt; padding:3.0pt 0i= n 0in 0in"> <p class=3D"MsoNormal"><b><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt; font-family:&quo= t;Tahoma","sans-serif"">From:</span></b><span
> style=3D"font-=
> size:10.0pt;
> font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"">
> Assemb=
> ly for the Teaching of English Grammar [mailto:[log in to unmask]]
> <b>On Behalf Of </b>Bob Yates<br>
> <b>Sent:</b> Thursday, July 10, 2014 6:16 PM<br> <b>To:</b> [log in to unmask]<br> <b>Subject:</b> Re: Relevance of Syntax & Semantics: "I'm gonna wr= ite me some music about"</span></p> </div> </div> <p class=3D"MsoNormal"> </p> <div> <div> <p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-family:"Calibri","=
> ;sans-serif"">I=92m confused by the following observation from Craig.<= /span></p> </div> <div> <p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-family:"Calibri","=
> ;sans-serif""> </span></p>
> </div>
> <div>
> <p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span
> style=3D"font-family:"Calibri","=
> ;sans-serif""> </span></p>
> </div>
> <div>
> <div>
> <p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span
> style=3D"font-family:"Calibri","=
> ;sans-serif""> </span></p>
> </div>
> <div>
> <p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span
> style=3D"font-family:"Calibri","=
> ;sans-serif"">Sent from Windows
> Mail</span></p>
> </div>
> <div>
> <p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span
> style=3D"font-family:"Calibri","=
> ;sans-serif""> </span></p>
> </div>
> </div>
> <div style=3D"border:none; border-top:solid #E5E5E5 1.0pt; padding:4.0pt 0i= n 0in 0in"> <div> <p class=3D"MsoNormal"><b><span style=3D"font-family:"Calibri",&q=
> uot;sans-serif";
> letter-spacing:.25pt">From:</span></b><span
> style=3D"=
> font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";
> letter-spacing:.25p=
> t"> <a href=3D"mailto:[log in to unmask]"
> target=3D"_parent">Hancock,=
> Craig G</a><br>
> <b>Sent:</b> =FDThursday=FD, =FDJuly=FD =FD10=FD, =FD2014 =FD2=FD:=FD0= 6=FD =FDPM<br> <b>To:</b> <a href=3D"mailto:[log in to unmask]"
> target=3D"_par=
> ent">[log in to unmask]</a></span><span
> style=3D"font-family:"C=
> alibri","sans-serif""></span></p>
> </div>
> </div>
> <div>
> <p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span
> style=3D"font-family:"Calibri","=
> ;sans-serif""> </span></p>
> </div>
> <div>
> <div id=3D"OWAFontStyleDivID">
> <p style=3D"background:white"><em><span
> style=3D"font-family:"Calibri&=
> quot;,"sans-serif"; color:black">As Bybee points out, t</span></e= m><span style=3D"font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";
> co=
> lor:black">he kind of phonetic reduction we get with 'gonna' and oughtta' i= s typical
> of grammaticalization. We don't say "I'm gonna New York" for &qu= ot;I'm going to New York," but we do say "I'm gonna take the trai= n to New York" or "It's gonna rain." We only use it for expr= essions of intention and prediction, which are modal in function. This woul= d
> be a good formal argument for "going to" functioning as a consti= tuent group when modal functions are carried out, but not for physical move=
> ment:
> <em><span
> style=3D"font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif"">=
> going</span></em> plus <em><span
> style=3D"font-family:"Calibri",&=
> quot;sans-serif"">to New
> York</span></em>. </span></p>
> <p style=3D"background:white"><span
> style=3D"font-family:"Calibri"=
> ;,"sans-serif";
> color:black"> </span></p>
> <p style=3D"background:white"><span
> style=3D"font-family:"Calibri"=
> ;,"sans-serif"; color:black">Now, if I understand Craig correctly= , language is not a formal system, yet he just made a formal distinction be= tween =93going to=94 verb vs.=94 going to=94 location. It seems
> to me that we are dealing with two different to=92s. The to in = =93going to=94 marks a verb and the to in making a location is a&= nbsp;preposition. </span></p> <p style=3D"background:white"><span style=3D"font-family:"Calibri"=
> ;,"sans-serif";
> color:black"> </span></p>
> <p style=3D"background:white"><span
> style=3D"font-family:"Calibri"=
> ;,"sans-serif"; color:black">By the way, gonna reduction is = also reflected in wanna. </span></p> <p style=3D"background:white"><span style=3D"font-family:"Calibri"=
> ;,"sans-serif";
> color:black"> </span></p>
> <p style=3D"background:white"><span
> style=3D"font-family:"Calibri"=
> ;,"sans-serif"; color:black">Bob Yates, University of Central Mis= souri </span></p> </div> </div> </div> </div> </div> </div> </div> </body> </html>
>
> --_000_140509342553356225bsuedu_--
>
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> ------------------------------
>
> Date: Wed, 13 Aug 2014 09:04:29 -0700
> From: "[log in to unmask]" <[log in to unmask]>
> Subject: Re: Relevance of Syntax & Semantics: "I'm gonna write me some music about"
>
> Thank you. It actually is an informal post. I guess I was concerned with 1) comma splices and 2) is the second dash always necessary?
>
> --------------------------------------------
> On Wed, 8/13/14, Stahlke, Herbert <[log in to unmask]> wrote:
>
> Subject: Re: Relevance of Syntax & Semantics: "I'm gonna write me some music about"
> To: [log in to unmask]
> Date: Wednesday, August 13, 2014, 11:47 AM
>
> I'd say it's a matter of
> register. It's certainly not formal academic
> writing. The average freshman comp instructor would
> probably label it a sentence fragment. Hoowever, in
> dialog or in informal writing of other sorts it strikes me
> as both grammatical and apt. It has a clear
> topic-comment structure. Before the dash is background
> information, and after the dash is the predicate.Â
> Omission of subject pronoun and Be verb is a marker of
> informal, casual style.
>
> Herb
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar
> [mailto:[log in to unmask]]
> On Behalf Of [log in to unmask]
> Sent: Wednesday, August 13, 2014 10:59 AM
> To: [log in to unmask]
> Subject: Re: Relevance of Syntax & Semantics: "I'm gonna
> write me some music about"
>
> Herbert,
> Please help with the following:
>
> Is this grammatically wrong?
>
> "Running errands, doing the laundry, walking the dogs--ready
> for this day to be over."
>
> Thanks!
> --------------------------------------------
> On Fri, 7/11/14, Stahlke, Herbert <[log in to unmask]>
> wrote:
>
> Subject: Re: Relevance of Syntax & Semantics:Â
> "I'm gonna write me some music about"
> To: [log in to unmask]
> Date: Friday, July 11, 2014, 11:43 AM
>
> Â Â Â Â
> Â Â Â <[log in to unmask]>,<[log in to unmask]>
> In-Reply-To: <[log in to unmask]>
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>
> I'd like to take Craig's thoughts a step further.Â
> As one who began his lin= guistic life doing
> field work on languages he knew little about, I'm
> sensit=Â ive to the influence a standard orthography
> has on our analyses. Suppose y= ou were doing
> field work on English with no orthography and little
> other in=Â formation to rely on--or be misled by.Â
> When you hear /aimn@go/ you would b= y
> no stretch of the imagination connect that to "I am
> going to go." Rather= , you'd identify the
> first person singular subject pronoun, the /m/
> perhaps=
> Â marking progressive aspect (although you'd properly
> have doubts about that=
> Â conclusion), and the /n@/ as some sort of future
> or intentional marker wor= thy of considerably
> more research. Maybe, after comparing a number of
> dial=Â ects you might come up with a historical
> internal reconstruction that relat= ed the form
> to "am going to," but that would have about as much
> bearing on =Â your synchronic grammatical description
> as the equally historical discovery=
> Â that the -t of "height" and the -th of "width" are
> the same thing.
>
>
> I fear sometimes that the extent to which our
> descriptions look like our or= thography or our
> grammatical traditions, they are not evidence-based.Â
> The =Â fact is that the results of grammaticalization
> are frequently not recoverab= le except by
> diligent study by trained grammarians; they remain
> opaque to n=Â ormal native speakers.
>
>
> Herb
>
>
>
> Herbert F. W. Stahlke, Ph.D.
> Emeritus Professor of English
> Ball State University
> Muncie, INÂ 47306
> [log in to unmask]
> ________________________________
> From: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar <[log in to unmask]Â
> DU> on behalf of Hancock, Craig G <[log in to unmask]>
> Sent: Friday, July 11, 2014 10:13 AM
> To: [log in to unmask]
> Subject: Re: Relevance of Syntax & Semantics: "I'm
> gonna write me some musi= c about"
>
> Bob,
> Â Â Phonetic reduction is a dynamic processÂ
> directly related to frequency. =Â Since =93going to=94
> can now combine in auxiliary like ways with main
> verbs=Â , its use has dramatically expanded. Frequency
> of use correlates well with = phonetic
> reduction. It=92s an observation about how languageÂ
> shifts in form=
> Â as it takes on new (expanded) function. Want to
> has expanded range of use = in the same way. The
> same patterns are at work in its reduction.The
> consens=Â us seems to be that it has modal like
> qualities.
>   Biologists make observations about form all the
> time without thinking o=Â f life itself as a formal
> system. What we need, I think, is the equivalent
> =Â of an anatomy and physiology. In the world of
> biology, the two are dynamica= lly connected. No
> one would argue (scientifically) that biological forms
> ar=Â e independent of function and no one would propose
> that forms are unimporta= nt.
> Â Â In the biological world, it=92s hard to drawÂ
> strict clear lines between=
> Â categories in part because adaptation is constant.
> Bybee=92s point=97and s=
> he=92s not the only one making it=97is that language is
> more like biology t= han it is like physics and
> chemistry. In some ways, this is a renewed
> inter=Â est in empirical observation. This is certainly
> not a retreat from form.
>
> Craig
>
> From: Assembly for the Teaching of English GrammarÂ
> [mailto:[log in to unmask]Â
> AMIOH.EDU] On Behalf Of Bob Yates
> Sent: Thursday, July 10, 2014 6:16 PM
> To: [log in to unmask]
> Subject: Re: Relevance of Syntax & Semantics: "I'm
> gonna write me some musi= c about"
>
> I=92m confused by the following observation from Craig.
>
>
>
> Sent from Windows Mail
>
> From: Hancock, Craig G<mailto:[log in to unmask]>
> Sent: =FDThursday=FD, =FDJuly=FD =FD10=FD, =FD2014Â
> =FD2=FD:=FD06=FD =FDPM
> To: [log in to unmask]<mailto:[log in to unmask]>
>
>
> As Bybee points out, the kind of phonetic reduction we
> get with 'gonna' and=
> Â oughtta' is typical of grammaticalization. We don't
> say "I'm gonna New Yor= k" for "I'm going to New
> York," but we do say "I'm gonna take the train to
> =Â New York" or "It's gonna rain." We only use it
> for expressions of intention=
> Â and prediction, which are modal in function. This
> would be a good formal a= rgument for "going to"
> functioning as a constituent group when modal
> functi=Â ons are carried out, but not for physical
> movement: going plus to New York.
>
>
>
> Now, if I understand Craig correctly, language is not
> a formal system, yet = he just made a formal
> distinction between =93going to=94Â verb vs.=94 going
> =
> to=94 location. It seems to me that we are dealingÂ
> with two different to= =92s. The to in =93going
> to=94 marks a verb and the to in making a
> locatio=Â n is a preposition.
>
>
>
> By the way, gonna reduction is also reflected in wanna.
>
>
>
> Bob Yates, University of Central Missouri
>
> --_000_140509342553356225bsuedu_
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> style=3D"font-size:12pt;color:#000000;backgro=
> und-color:#FFFFFF;font-family:Calibri,Arial,Helvetica,sans-serif;">
> <p>I'd like to take Craig's thoughts a step further.
> As one who began=
> Â his linguistic life doing field work on languages he
> knew little about, I'= m sensitive to the
> influence a standard orthography has on our analyses.
> &n=Â bsp;Suppose you were doing field work on
> English
> Â with no orthography and little other information to
> rely on--or be misled = by. When you
> hear /aimn@go/ you would by
> no stretch of the imaginatio= n connect that to
> "I am going to go."Â
> Rather, you'd identif=Â y the first person
> singular subject pronoun, the /m/
> Â perhaps marking progressive aspect (although
> you'd properly have doub= ts about that
> conclusion), and the /n@/ as some sort of future or
> intention=Â al marker worthy of considerably more
> research.
> Maybe, after comparin=
> g a number of dialects you might come up with
> Â a historical internal reconstruction that related the
> form to "am goi= ng to," but
> that would have about as much bearing on your
> synchronic g=Â rammatical description as the equally
> historical discovery that the -t of &=Â
> quot;height" and the -th ofÂ
> "width" are the same
> Â thing. </p>
> <p><br>
> </p>
> <p>I fear sometimes that the extent to which
> our descriptions look like our=
> Â orthography or our grammatical traditions, they are
> not evidence-based. &n= bsp;The fact is that
> the results of grammaticalization are frequently not
> r=Â ecoverable except by diligent study by
> Â trained grammarians; they remain opaque to normal
> native speakers.<br> </p>Â
> <p><br>Â </p>Â
> <p>Herb <br>Â </p>Â
> <div>Â <p><br>Â </p>Â
> <p><br>Â </p>Â <div
> class=3D"BodyFragment"><font size=3D"2">Â
> <div class=3D"PlainText">Herbert F. W. Stahlke,Â
> Ph.D.<br>Â Emeritus Professor of
> English<br>Â Ball State
> University<br>Â Muncie, IN
> 47306<br>Â [log in to unmask]</div>Â
> </font></div>Â </div>Â <div
> style=3D"color: rgb(33, 33, 33);">Â <hr
> tabindex=3D"-1" style=3D"display:inline-block;Â
> width:98%">Â <div id=3D"divRplyFwdMsg"
> dir=3D"ltr"><font face=3D"Calibri, sans-serif"
> co=Â lor=3D"#000000"
> style=3D"font-size:11pt"><b>From:</b>
> Assembly for the Teac=
> hing of English Grammar <[log in to unmask]>Â
> on behalf of Hanc=Â ock, Craig G <[log in to unmask]><br>Â
> <b>Sent:</b> Friday, July 11, 2014 10:13Â
> AM<br>Â <b>To:</b> [log in to unmask]<br>Â
> <b>Subject:</b> Re: Relevance of SyntaxÂ
> & Semantics: "I'm gonna wr=Â ite me
> some music about"</font>Â
> <div> </div>Â </div>Â
> <div>Â <div class=3D"WordSection1">Â
> <p class=3D"MsoNormal"><spanÂ
> style=3D"font-size:11.0pt; font-family:"C=Â
> alibri","sans-serif";
> color:#1F497D">Bob,</span></p>
> <p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span
> style=3D"font-size:11.0pt; font-family:"C=Â
> alibri","sans-serif";
> color:#1F497D">
> Phon=Â etic reduction is a dynamic process directly
> related to frequency. Since = =93going to=94 can
> now combine in auxiliary like ways with main verbs,
> its =Â use
> Â has dramatically expanded. Frequency of use
> correlates well with phonetic = reduction.
> It=92s an observation about how language shifts in
> form as it ta=Â kes on new (expanded) function.
> <i>Want to</i> has expanded range of use in
> the same way. The same patterns=
> Â are at work in its reduction.The consensus seems to
> be that it has modal l= ike
> qualities.</span></p>Â <p
> class=3D"MsoNormal"><spanÂ
> style=3D"font-size:11.0pt; font-family:"C=Â
> alibri","sans-serif";
> color:#1F497D">
> Biol=Â ogists make observations about form all the time
> without thinking of life i= tself as a formal
> system. What we need, I think, is the equivalent of
> an
> Â anatomy and physiology. In the world of biology, the
> two are dynamically c= onnected. No one would
> argue (scientifically) that biological forms are
> ind=Â ependent of function and no one would propose
> that forms are unimportant.
> </span></p>
> <p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span
> style=3D"font-size:11.0pt; font-family:"C=Â
> alibri","sans-serif";
> color:#1F497D">  =
> ;In the biological world, it=92s hard to draw strict
> clear lines between ca= tegories in part because
> adaptation is constant. Bybee=92s point=97and
> she=Â =92s not the
> Â only one making it=97is that language is more like
> biology than it is like=
> Â physics and chemistry. In some ways, this is a
> renewed interest in empiric= al observation.
> This is certainly not a retreat from form.
> </span></p>
> <p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span
> style=3D"font-size:11.0pt; font-family:"C=Â
> alibri","sans-serif";
> color:#1F497D"> </span></p>
> <p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span
> style=3D"font-size:11.0pt; font-family:"C=Â
> alibri","sans-serif";
> color:#1F497D">Craig</span></p>
> <p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span
> style=3D"font-size:11.0pt; font-family:"C=Â
> alibri","sans-serif";
> color:#1F497D"> </span></p>
> <div>
> <div style=3D"border:none; border-top:solid
> #B5C4DFÂ 1.0pt; padding:3.0pt 0i=Â n 0in
> 0in">Â <p
> class=3D"MsoNormal"><b><spanÂ
> style=3D"font-size:10.0pt; font-family:&quo=Â
> t;Tahoma","sans-serif"">From:</span></b><span
> style=3D"font-=
> size:10.0pt;
> font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"">
> Assemb=
> ly for the Teaching of English Grammar [mailto:[log in to unmask]]
> <b>On Behalf Of </b>Bob Yates<br>
> <b>Sent:</b> Thursday, July 10, 2014 6:16Â
> PM<br>Â <b>To:</b> [log in to unmask]<br>Â
> <b>Subject:</b> Re: Relevance of SyntaxÂ
> & Semantics: "I'm gonna wr=Â ite me
> some music about"</span></p>Â
> </div>Â </div>Â <p
> class=3D"MsoNormal"> </p>Â
> <div>Â <div>Â <p
> class=3D"MsoNormal"><spanÂ
> style=3D"font-family:"Calibri","=
> ;sans-serif"">I=92m confused by the
> following observation from Craig.<=Â
> /span></p>Â </div>Â
> <div>Â <p
> class=3D"MsoNormal"><spanÂ
> style=3D"font-family:"Calibri","=
> ;sans-serif""> </span></p>
> </div>
> <div>
> <p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span
> style=3D"font-family:"Calibri","=
> ;sans-serif""> </span></p>
> </div>
> <div>
> <div>
> <p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span
> style=3D"font-family:"Calibri","=
> ;sans-serif""> </span></p>
> </div>
> <div>
> <p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span
> style=3D"font-family:"Calibri","=
> ;sans-serif"">Sent from Windows
> Mail</span></p>
> </div>
> <div>
> <p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span
> style=3D"font-family:"Calibri","=
> ;sans-serif""> </span></p>
> </div>
> </div>
> <div style=3D"border:none; border-top:solid
> #E5E5E5Â 1.0pt; padding:4.0pt 0i=Â n 0in
> 0in">Â <div>Â <p
> class=3D"MsoNormal"><b><spanÂ
> style=3D"font-family:"Calibri",&q=
> uot;sans-serif";
> letter-spacing:.25pt">From:</span></b><span
> style=3D"=
> font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";
> letter-spacing:.25p=
> t"> <a href=3D"mailto:[log in to unmask]"
> target=3D"_parent">Hancock,=
> Â Craig G</a><br>
> <b>Sent:</b> =FDThursday=FD,
> =FDJuly=FDÂ =FD10=FD, =FD2014 =FD2=FD:=FD0=Â 6=FD
> =FDPM<br>Â <b>To:</b> <a
> href=3D"mailto:[log in to unmask]"
> target=3D"_par=
> ent">[log in to unmask]</a></span><span
> style=3D"font-family:"C=
> alibri","sans-serif""></span></p>
> </div>
> </div>
> <div>
> <p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span
> style=3D"font-family:"Calibri","=
> ;sans-serif""> </span></p>
> </div>
> <div>
> <div id=3D"OWAFontStyleDivID">
> <p style=3D"background:white"><em><span
> style=3D"font-family:"Calibri&=
> quot;,"sans-serif";
> color:black">As Bybee points out,
> t</span></e=Â m><spanÂ
> style=3D"font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";
> co=
> lor:black">he kind of phonetic reduction we get
> with 'gonna' and oughtta' i= s typical
> Â of grammaticalization. We don't say "I'm
> gonna New York" for &qu= ot;I'm
> going to New York," but we do sayÂ
> "I'm gonna take the trai=Â n to New
> York" or "It's gonna rain."
> We only use it for expr=Â essions of intention and
> prediction, which are modal in function. This
> woul=Â d
> Â be a good formal argument for "going
> to"Â functioning as a consti=Â tuent
> group when modal functions are carried out, but notÂ
> for physical move=
> ment:
> <em><span
> style=3D"font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif"">=
> going</span></em> plus <em><span
> style=3D"font-family:"Calibri",&=
> quot;sans-serif"">to New
> York</span></em>. </span></p>
> <p style=3D"background:white"><span
> style=3D"font-family:"Calibri"=
> ;,"sans-serif";
> color:black"> </span></p>
> <p style=3D"background:white"><span
> style=3D"font-family:"Calibri"=
> ;,"sans-serif"; color:black">Now, if
> IÂ understand Craig correctly=Â , language is not
> a formal system, yet he just made a formal distinction
> be=Â tween =93going to=94 verb vs.=94 going
> to=94Â location. It seems
> Â to me that we are dealing with two differentÂ
> to=92s. The to in =Â =93going to=94
> marks a verb and the to in making a
> location is a&=Â nbsp;preposition. Â
> </span></p>Â <p
> style=3D"background:white"><spanÂ
> style=3D"font-family:"Calibri"=
> ;,"sans-serif";
> color:black"> </span></p>
> <p style=3D"background:white"><span
> style=3D"font-family:"Calibri"=
> ;,"sans-serif"; color:black">By
> the way, gonna reduction is = also
> reflected in wanna. Â
> </span></p>Â <p
> style=3D"background:white"><spanÂ
> style=3D"font-family:"Calibri"=
> ;,"sans-serif";
> color:black"> </span></p>
> <p style=3D"background:white"><span
> style=3D"font-family:"Calibri"=
> ;,"sans-serif"; color:black">Bob
> Yates, University of Central Mis=Â
> souri </span></p>Â
> </div>Â </div>Â </div>Â
> </div>Â </div>Â </div>Â
> </div>Â </body>Â </html>
>
> --_000_140509342553356225bsuedu_--
>
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>
>
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> ------------------------------
>
> Date: Wed, 13 Aug 2014 17:06:42 +0000
> From: "Stahlke, Herbert" <[log in to unmask]>
> Subject: Re: Relevance of Syntax & Semantics: "I'm gonna write me some music about"
>
> Some types of writing error are in fact attempts to do things that speech does well but writing, especially formal writing, can't do so well. Comma splices often combine two clause where one clause would be spoken with a lower intonation contour to indicate that it is not being asserted. This is a meaning we convey easily in conversation but with some difficulty in writing. The dash is problematical precisely because it provides a way to interrupt the grammatical structure of a sentence, something that, again, we do easily in conversation but not so easily in writing. To use a dash well takes some practice, and most freshman writers don't have that practice--they need to experiment, but their instructors tend to penalize them for doing so.
>
> Herb
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar [mailto:[log in to unmask]] On Behalf Of [log in to unmask]
> Sent: Wednesday, August 13, 2014 12:04 PM
> To: [log in to unmask]
> Subject: Re: Relevance of Syntax & Semantics: "I'm gonna write me some music about"
>
> Thank you. It actually is an informal post. I guess I was concerned with 1) comma splices and 2) is the second dash always necessary?
>
> --------------------------------------------
> On Wed, 8/13/14, Stahlke, Herbert <[log in to unmask]> wrote:
>
> Subject: Re: Relevance of Syntax & Semantics: "I'm gonna write me some music about"
> To: [log in to unmask]
> Date: Wednesday, August 13, 2014, 11:47 AM
>
> I'd say it's a matter of
> register. It's certainly not formal academic writing. The average freshman comp instructor would probably label it a sentence fragment. Hoowever, in dialog or in informal writing of other sorts it strikes me as both grammatical and apt. It has a clear topic-comment structure. Before the dash is background information, and after the dash is the predicate. Omission of subject pronoun and Be verb is a marker of informal, casual style.
>
> Herb
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar [mailto:[log in to unmask]]
> On Behalf Of [log in to unmask]
> Sent: Wednesday, August 13, 2014 10:59 AM
> To: [log in to unmask]
> Subject: Re: Relevance of Syntax & Semantics: "I'm gonna write me some music about"
>
> Herbert,
> Please help with the following:
>
> Is this grammatically wrong?
>
> "Running errands, doing the laundry, walking the dogs--ready for this day to be over."
>
> Thanks!
> --------------------------------------------
> On Fri, 7/11/14, Stahlke, Herbert <[log in to unmask]>
> wrote:
>
> Subject: Re: Relevance of Syntax & Semantics: "I'm gonna write me some music about"
> To: [log in to unmask]
> Date: Friday, July 11, 2014, 11:43 AM
>
> Â Â Â Â
> Â Â Â <[log in to unmask]>,<[log in to unmask]>
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> I'd like to take Craig's thoughts a step further. As one who began his lin= guistic life doing field work on languages he knew little about, I'm sensit= ive to the influence a standard orthography has on our analyses. Suppose y= ou were doing field work on English with no orthography and little other in= formation to rely on--or be misled by. When you hear /aimn@go/ you would b= y no stretch of the imagination connect that to "I am going to go." Rather= , you'd identify the first person singular subject pronoun, the /m/ perhaps=
>  marking progressive aspect (although you'd properly have doubts about that=
>  conclusion), and the /n@/ as some sort of future or intentional marker wor= thy of considerably more research. Maybe, after comparing a number of dial= ects you might come up with a historical internal reconstruction that relat= ed the form to "am going to," but that would have about as much bearing on = your synchronic grammatical description as the equally historical discovery=
>  that the -t of "height" and the -th of "width" are the same thing.
>
>
> I fear sometimes that the extent to which our descriptions look like our or= thography or our grammatical traditions, they are not evidence-based. The = fact is that the results of grammaticalization are frequently not recoverab= le except by diligent study by trained grammarians; they remain opaque to n= ormal native speakers.
>
>
> Herb
>
>
>
> Herbert F. W. Stahlke, Ph.D.
> Emeritus Professor of English
> Ball State University
> Muncie, INÂ 47306
> [log in to unmask]
> ________________________________
> From: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar <[log in to unmask] DU> on behalf of Hancock, Craig G <[log in to unmask]>
> Sent: Friday, July 11, 2014 10:13 AM
> To: [log in to unmask]
> Subject: Re: Relevance of Syntax & Semantics: "I'm gonna write me some musi= c about"
>
> Bob,
>   Phonetic reduction is a dynamic process directly related to frequency. = Since =93going to=94 can now combine in auxiliary like ways with main verbs= , its use has dramatically expanded. Frequency of use correlates well with = phonetic reduction. It=92s an observation about how language shifts in form=
>  as it takes on new (expanded) function. Want to has expanded range of use = in the same way. The same patterns are at work in its reduction.The consens= us seems to be that it has modal like qualities.
>   Biologists make observations about form all the time without thinking o= f life itself as a formal system. What we need, I think, is the equivalent = of an anatomy and physiology. In the world of biology, the two are dynamica= lly connected. No one would argue (scientifically) that biological forms ar= e independent of function and no one would propose that forms are unimporta= nt.
> Â Â In the biological world, it=92s hard to draw strict clear lines between=
> Â categories in part because adaptation is constant.
> Bybee=92s point=97and s=
> he=92s not the only one making it=97is that language is more like biology t= han it is like physics and chemistry. In some ways, this is a renewed inter= est in empirical observation. This is certainly not a retreat from form.
>
> Craig
>
> From: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar [mailto:[log in to unmask] AMIOH.EDU] On Behalf Of Bob Yates
> Sent: Thursday, July 10, 2014 6:16 PM
> To: [log in to unmask]
> Subject: Re: Relevance of Syntax & Semantics: "I'm gonna write me some musi= c about"
>
> I=92m confused by the following observation from Craig.
>
>
>
> Sent from Windows Mail
>
> From: Hancock, Craig G<mailto:[log in to unmask]>
> Sent: =FDThursday=FD, =FDJuly=FD =FD10=FD, =FD2014 =FD2=FD:=FD06=FD =FDPM
> To: [log in to unmask]<mailto:[log in to unmask]>
>
>
> As Bybee points out, the kind of phonetic reduction we get with 'gonna' and=
>  oughtta' is typical of grammaticalization. We don't say "I'm gonna New Yor= k" for "I'm going to New York," but we do say "I'm gonna take the train to = New York" or "It's gonna rain." We only use it for expressions of intention=
>  and prediction, which are modal in function. This would be a good formal a= rgument for "going to"
> functioning as a constituent group when modal functi= ons are carried out, but not for physical
> movement: going plus to New York.
>
>
>
> Now, if I understand Craig correctly, language is not a formal system, yet = he just made a formal distinction between =93going to=94 verb vs.=94 going =
> to=94 location. It seems to me that we are dealing with two different to= =92s. The to in =93going
> to=94 marks a verb and the to in making a locatio= n is a preposition.
>
>
>
> By the way, gonna reduction is also reflected in wanna.
>
>
>
> Bob Yates, University of Central Missouri
>
> --_000_140509342553356225bsuedu_
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> 0in 0in 0.0001pt 0.5= in; line-height: 115%;
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> font-size: 10pt;=
> Â } @page WordSection1 { margin: 1in;
> }--></style>Â </head>Â <body
> dir=3D"ltr">Â <div id=3D"OWAFontStyleDivID"
> style=3D"font-size:12pt;color:#000000;backgro=
> und-color:#FFFFFF;font-family:Calibri,Arial,Helvetica,sans-serif;">
> <p>I'd like to take Craig's thoughts a step further.
> As one who began=
>  his linguistic life doing field work on languages he knew little about, I'= m sensitive to the influence a standard orthography has on our analyses.
> &n=Â bsp;Suppose you were doing field work on English
>  with no orthography and little other information to rely on--or be misled = by. When you hear /aimn@go/ you would by no stretch of the imaginatio= n connect that to "I am going to go." Rather, you'd identif= y the first person singular subject pronoun, the /m/
>  perhaps marking progressive aspect (although you'd properly have doub= ts about that conclusion), and the /n@/ as some sort of future or intention= al marker worthy of considerably more research.
> Maybe, after comparin=
> g a number of dialects you might come up with
>  a historical internal reconstruction that related the form to "am goi= ng to," but that would have about as much bearing on your synchronic g= rammatical description as the equally historical discovery that the -t of &= quot;height" and the -th of "width" are the same
> Â thing. </p>
> <p><br>
> </p>
> <p>I fear sometimes that the extent to which our descriptions look like our=
>  orthography or our grammatical traditions, they are not evidence-based. &n= bsp;The fact is that the results of grammaticalization are frequently not r= ecoverable except by diligent study by
>  trained grammarians; they remain opaque to normal native speakers.<br> </p> <p><br> </p> <p>Herb <br> </p> <div> <p><br> </p> <p><br> </p> <div class=3D"BodyFragment"><font size=3D"2"> <div class=3D"PlainText">Herbert F. W. Stahlke, Ph.D.<br> Emeritus Professor of English<br> Ball State University<br> Muncie, IN 47306<br> [log in to unmask]</div> </font></div> </div> <div
> style=3D"color: rgb(33, 33, 33);">Â <hr tabindex=3D"-1" style=3D"display:inline-block; width:98%">Â <div id=3D"divRplyFwdMsg"
> dir=3D"ltr"><font face=3D"Calibri, sans-serif"
> co=Â lor=3D"#000000"
> style=3D"font-size:11pt"><b>From:</b>
> Assembly for the Teac=
> hing of English Grammar <[log in to unmask]> on behalf of Hanc=Â ock, Craig G <[log in to unmask]><br> <b>Sent:</b> Friday, July 11, 2014 10:13 AM<br>Â <b>To:</b> [log in to unmask]<br> <b>Subject:</b> Re: Relevance of Syntax & Semantics: "I'm gonna wr=Â ite me some music about"</font> <div> </div>Â </div> <div>Â <div class=3D"WordSection1"> <p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt; font-family:"C= alibri","sans-serif";
> color:#1F497D">Bob,</span></p>
> <p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span
> style=3D"font-size:11.0pt; font-family:"C= alibri","sans-serif";
> color:#1F497D">
> Phon= etic reduction is a dynamic process directly related to frequency. Since = =93going to=94 can now combine in auxiliary like ways with main verbs, its = use
>  has dramatically expanded. Frequency of use correlates well with phonetic = reduction.
> It=92s an observation about how language shifts in form as it ta= kes on new (expanded) function.
> <i>Want to</i> has expanded range of use in the same way. The same patterns=
>  are at work in its reduction.The consensus seems to be that it has modal l= ike qualities.</span></p> <p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt; font-family:"C= alibri","sans-serif";
> color:#1F497D">
> Biol= ogists make observations about form all the time without thinking of life i= tself as a formal system. What we need, I think, is the equivalent of an
>  anatomy and physiology. In the world of biology, the two are dynamically c= onnected. No one would argue (scientifically) that biological forms are ind= ependent of function and no one would propose that forms are unimportant.
> </span></p>
> <p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span
> style=3D"font-size:11.0pt; font-family:"C= alibri","sans-serif";
> color:#1F497D">  =
> ;In the biological world, it=92s hard to draw strict clear lines between ca= tegories in part because adaptation is constant. Bybee=92s point=97and she= =92s not the
>  only one making it=97is that language is more like biology than it is like=
>  physics and chemistry. In some ways, this is a renewed interest in empiric= al observation.
> This is certainly not a retreat from form.
> </span></p>
> <p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span
> style=3D"font-size:11.0pt; font-family:"C= alibri","sans-serif";
> color:#1F497D"> </span></p>
> <p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span
> style=3D"font-size:11.0pt; font-family:"C= alibri","sans-serif";
> color:#1F497D">Craig</span></p>
> <p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span
> style=3D"font-size:11.0pt; font-family:"C= alibri","sans-serif";
> color:#1F497D"> </span></p>
> <div>
> <div style=3D"border:none; border-top:solid #B5C4DFÂ 1.0pt; padding:3.0pt 0i=Â n 0in 0in">Â <p class=3D"MsoNormal"><b><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt; font-family:&quo= t;Tahoma","sans-serif"">From:</span></b><span
> style=3D"font-=
> size:10.0pt;
> font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"">
> Assemb=
> ly for the Teaching of English Grammar [mailto:[log in to unmask]]
> <b>On Behalf Of </b>Bob Yates<br>
> <b>Sent:</b> Thursday, July 10, 2014 6:16 PM<br>Â <b>To:</b> [log in to unmask]<br> <b>Subject:</b> Re: Relevance of Syntax & Semantics: "I'm gonna wr=Â ite me some music about"</span></p> </div>Â </div>Â <p class=3D"MsoNormal"> </p> <div>Â <div>Â <p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-family:"Calibri","=
> ;sans-serif"">I=92m confused by the following observation from Craig.<= /span></p> </div> <div> <p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-family:"Calibri","=
> ;sans-serif""> </span></p>
> </div>
> <div>
> <p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span
> style=3D"font-family:"Calibri","=
> ;sans-serif""> </span></p>
> </div>
> <div>
> <div>
> <p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span
> style=3D"font-family:"Calibri","=
> ;sans-serif""> </span></p>
> </div>
> <div>
> <p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span
> style=3D"font-family:"Calibri","=
> ;sans-serif"">Sent from Windows
> Mail</span></p>
> </div>
> <div>
> <p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span
> style=3D"font-family:"Calibri","=
> ;sans-serif""> </span></p>
> </div>
> </div>
> <div style=3D"border:none; border-top:solid
> #E5E5E5Â 1.0pt; padding:4.0pt 0i=Â n 0in 0in">Â <div>Â <p class=3D"MsoNormal"><b><span style=3D"font-family:"Calibri",&q=
> uot;sans-serif";
> letter-spacing:.25pt">From:</span></b><span
> style=3D"=
> font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";
> letter-spacing:.25p=
> t"> <a href=3D"mailto:[log in to unmask]"
> target=3D"_parent">Hancock,=
> Â Craig G</a><br>
> <b>Sent:</b> =FDThursday=FD,
> =FDJuly=FDÂ =FD10=FD, =FD2014 =FD2=FD:=FD0=Â 6=FD =FDPM<br>Â <b>To:</b> <a href=3D"mailto:[log in to unmask]"
> target=3D"_par=
> ent">[log in to unmask]</a></span><span
> style=3D"font-family:"C=
> alibri","sans-serif""></span></p>
> </div>
> </div>
> <div>
> <p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span
> style=3D"font-family:"Calibri","=
> ;sans-serif""> </span></p>
> </div>
> <div>
> <div id=3D"OWAFontStyleDivID">
> <p style=3D"background:white"><em><span
> style=3D"font-family:"Calibri&=
> quot;,"sans-serif";
> color:black">As Bybee points out,
> t</span></e=Â m><span
> style=3D"font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";
> co=
> lor:black">he kind of phonetic reduction we get with 'gonna' and oughtta' i= s typical
>  of grammaticalization. We don't say "I'm gonna New York" for &qu= ot;I'm going to New York," but we do say "I'm gonna take the trai= n to New York" or "It's gonna rain." We only use it for expr= essions of intention and prediction, which are modal in function. This woul= d
> Â be a good formal argument for "going to"Â functioning as a consti=Â tuent group when modal functions are carried out, but not for physical move=
> ment:
> <em><span
> style=3D"font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif"">=
> going</span></em> plus <em><span
> style=3D"font-family:"Calibri",&=
> quot;sans-serif"">to New
> York</span></em>. </span></p>
> <p style=3D"background:white"><span
> style=3D"font-family:"Calibri"=
> ;,"sans-serif";
> color:black"> </span></p>
> <p style=3D"background:white"><span
> style=3D"font-family:"Calibri"=
> ;,"sans-serif"; color:black">Now, if I understand Craig correctly= , language is not a formal system, yet he just made a formal distinction be= tween =93going to=94 verb vs.=94 going
> to=94Â location. It seems
>  to me that we are dealing with two different to=92s. The to in = =93going to=94 marks a verb and the to in making a location is a&= nbsp;preposition. </span></p> <p style=3D"background:white"><span style=3D"font-family:"Calibri"=
> ;,"sans-serif";
> color:black"> </span></p>
> <p style=3D"background:white"><span
> style=3D"font-family:"Calibri"=
> ;,"sans-serif"; color:black">By the way, gonna reduction is = also reflected in wanna. </span></p> <p style=3D"background:white"><span style=3D"font-family:"Calibri"=
> ;,"sans-serif";
> color:black"> </span></p>
> <p style=3D"background:white"><span
> style=3D"font-family:"Calibri"=
> ;,"sans-serif"; color:black">Bob Yates, University of Central Mis= souri </span></p> </div> </div> </div> </div> </div> </div> </div> </body> </html>
>
> --_000_140509342553356225bsuedu_--
>
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> ------------------------------
>
> Date: Wed, 13 Aug 2014 18:12:29 -0400
> From: "Prof. Richard Grant WAU" <[log in to unmask]>
> Subject: Re: Relevance of Syntax & Semantics: "I'm gonna write me some music about"
>
> I agree with Herb's conclusion that the example is grammatical.
>
>
>
> I would, however, go further to say that such examples are not limited to
> informal registers and/or dialog but are rather intentional stylistic
> options for conveying effects and are used frequently by professional
> writers. In rhetorical circles they are referred to as a deliberate
> fragments or virtual sentences. By definition, deliberate fragment-as
> opposed to accidental ones-are complete thoughts represented by a basic
> sentence pattern or even just a word and are functionally used for doing the
> following:
>
>
>
> 1. introducing a topic
>
> 2. describing a scene
>
> 3. representing conversation
>
> 4. providing a succinct (perhaps even terse) conclusion
>
> 5. emphasizing a point or an idea
>
>
>
> Here are three excerpts that demonstrate examples of deliberate fragments:
>
>
>
> 1. Early, grainy half-light in an old apartment by the frozen
> river. Gerry slips in the brown-aired entryway and jiggles the key in the
> lock, pulling outward the way Dot told him, closing the door after and
> treading softly up the cat-grey carpeted stairs. -Louise Erdrich
>
>
>
> 2. He had been expecting something more definite-chest pains, a
> stroke, arthritis-but it was only weakness that put a finish to his living
> alone. A numbness in his head, an airy feeling when he walked. A wateriness
> in his bones that made it an effort to pick up his coffee cup in the
> morning. -Anne Tyler
>
>
>
>
> 3. But today, on this first day of May 2000, as Kerry sits in the
> cab of his truck describing these wonderful playgrounds of his childhood,
> the places themselves no longer exist, having all turned to open water years
> ago. The bayous, the lakes, the forests, the magical islands - all gone.
> It's not like having your house burn down with all your childhood mementos
> in it, he tells me. Baseball cards, photographs, trophies. The loss is
> absolute. Mike Tidwell, Bayou Farewell (112)
>
>
>
>
>
>
> Richard
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar
> [mailto:[log in to unmask]] On Behalf Of Stahlke, Herbert
> Sent: Wednesday, August 13, 2014 11:47 AM
> To: [log in to unmask]
> Subject: Re: Relevance of Syntax & Semantics: "I'm gonna write me some music
> about"
>
>
>
> I'd say it's a matter of register. It's certainly not formal academic
> writing. The average freshman comp instructor would probably label it a
> sentence fragment. Hoowever, in dialog or in informal writing of other
> sorts it strikes me as both grammatical and apt. It has a clear
> topic-comment structure. Before the dash is background information, and
> after the dash is the predicate. Omission of subject pronoun and Be verb is
> a marker of informal, casual style.
>
>
>
> Herb
>
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
>
> From: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar [
> <mailto:[log in to unmask]> mailto:[log in to unmask]] On
> Behalf Of <mailto:[log in to unmask]> [log in to unmask]
>
> Sent: Wednesday, August 13, 2014 10:59 AM
>
> To: <mailto:[log in to unmask]> [log in to unmask]
>
> Subject: Re: Relevance of Syntax & Semantics: "I'm gonna write me some music
> about"
>
>
>
> Herbert,
>
> Please help with the following:
>
>
>
> Is this grammatically wrong?
>
>
>
> "Running errands, doing the laundry, walking the dogs--ready for this day to
> be over."
>
>
>
> Thanks!
>
> --------------------------------------------
>
> On Fri, 7/11/14, Stahlke, Herbert < <mailto:[log in to unmask]>
> [log in to unmask]> wrote:
>
>
>
> Subject: Re: Relevance of Syntax & Semantics: "I'm gonna write me some
> music about"
>
> To: <mailto:[log in to unmask]> [log in to unmask]
>
> Date: Friday, July 11, 2014, 11:43 AM
>
>
>
> < <mailto:[log in to unmask]>
> [log in to unmask]>,<
> <mailto:[log in to unmask]
> com>
> [log in to unmask]>
>
> In-Reply-To: <
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> com>
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>
> I'd like to take Craig's thoughts a step further. As one who began his
> lin= guistic life doing field work on languages he knew little about, I'm
> sensit= ive to the influence a standard orthography has on our analyses.
> Suppose y= ou were doing field work on English with no orthography and
> little other in= formation to rely on--or be misled by. When you hear
> /aimn@go/ you would b= y no stretch of the imagination connect that to "I
> am going to go." Rather= , you'd identify the first person singular
> subject pronoun, the /m/ perhaps=
>
> marking progressive aspect (although you'd properly have doubts about
> that=
>
> conclusion), and the /n@/ as some sort of future or intentional marker
> wor= thy of considerably more research. Maybe, after comparing a number
> of dial= ects you might come up with a historical internal reconstruction
> that relat= ed the form to "am going to," but that would have about as
> much bearing on = your synchronic grammatical description as the equally
> historical discovery=
>
> that the -t of "height" and the -th of "width" are the same thing.
>
>
>
> I fear sometimes that the extent to which our descriptions look like our
> or= thography or our grammatical traditions, they are not evidence-based.
> The = fact is that the results of grammaticalization are frequently not
> recoverab= le except by diligent study by trained grammarians; they remain
> opaque to n= ormal native speakers.
>
>
>
> Herb
>
>
>
>
>
> Herbert F. W. Stahlke, Ph.D.
>
> Emeritus Professor of English
>
> Ball State University
>
> Muncie, IN 47306
>
> <mailto:[log in to unmask]> [log in to unmask]
>
> ________________________________
>
> From: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar <
> <mailto:[log in to unmask]> [log in to unmask] DU> on
> behalf of Hancock, Craig G < <mailto:[log in to unmask]>
> [log in to unmask]>
>
> Sent: Friday, July 11, 2014 10:13 AM
>
> To: <mailto:[log in to unmask]> [log in to unmask]
>
> Subject: Re: Relevance of Syntax & Semantics: "I'm gonna write me some
> musi= c about"
>
> Bob,
>
> Phonetic reduction is a dynamic process directly related to frequency.
> = Since =93going to=94 can now combine in auxiliary like ways with main
> verbs= , its use has dramatically expanded. Frequency of use correlates
> well with = phonetic reduction. It=92s an observation about how language
> shifts in form=
>
> as it takes on new (expanded) function. Want to has expanded range of use
> = in the same way. The same patterns are at work in its reduction.The
> consens= us seems to be that it has modal like qualities.
>
> Biologists make observations about form all the time without thinking
> o= f life itself as a formal system. What we need, I think, is the
> equivalent = of an anatomy and physiology. In the world of biology, the
> two are dynamica= lly connected. No one would argue (scientifically) that
> biological forms ar= e independent of function and no one would propose
> that forms are unimporta= nt.
>
> In the biological world, it=92s hard to draw strict clear lines
> between=
>
> categories in part because adaptation is constant.
>
> Bybee=92s point=97and s=
>
> he=92s not the only one making it=97is that language is more like biology
> t= han it is like physics and chemistry. In some ways, this is a renewed
> inter= est in empirical observation. This is certainly not a retreat from
> form.
>
> Craig
>
> From: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar [
> <mailto:[log in to unmask]> mailto:[log in to unmask]
> AMIOH.EDU] On Behalf Of Bob Yates
>
> Sent: Thursday, July 10, 2014 6:16 PM
>
> To: <mailto:[log in to unmask]> [log in to unmask]
>
> Subject: Re: Relevance of Syntax & Semantics: "I'm gonna write me some
> musi= c about"
>
> I=92m confused by the following observation from Craig.
>
>
>
>
>
> Sent from Windows Mail
>
> From: Hancock, Craig G< <mailto:[log in to unmask]>
> mailto:[log in to unmask]>
>
> Sent: =FDThursday=FD, =FDJuly=FD =FD10=FD, =FD2014 =FD2=FD:=FD06=FD =FDPM
>
> To: <mailto:[log in to unmask]:[log in to unmask]>
> [log in to unmask]<mailto:[log in to unmask]>
>
>
>
> As Bybee points out, the kind of phonetic reduction we get with 'gonna'
> and=
>
> oughtta' is typical of grammaticalization. We don't say "I'm gonna New
> Yor= k" for "I'm going to New York," but we do say "I'm gonna take the
> train to = New York" or "It's gonna rain." We only use it for expressions
> of intention=
>
> and prediction, which are modal in function. This would be a good formal
> a= rgument for "going to" functioning as a constituent group when modal
> functi= ons are carried out, but not for physical movement: going plus to
> New York.
>
>
>
>
>
> Now, if I understand Craig correctly, language is not a formal system, yet
> = he just made a formal distinction between =93going to=94 verb vs.=94
> going =
>
> to=94 location. It seems to me that we are dealing with two different to=
> =92s. The to in =93going to=94 marks a verb and the to in making a
> locatio= n is a preposition.
>
>
>
>
>
> By the way, gonna reduction is also reflected in wanna.
>
>
>
>
>
> Bob Yates, University of Central Missouri
>
> --_000_140509342553356225bsuedu_
>
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> style=3D"font-size:12pt;color:#000000;backgro=
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> und-color:#FFFFFF;font-family:Calibri,Arial,Helvetica,sans-serif;">
>
> <p>I'd like to take Craig's thoughts a step further.
>
> As one who began=
>
> his linguistic life doing field work on languages he knew little about,
> I'= m sensitive to the influence a standard orthography has on our
> analyses. &n= bsp;Suppose you were doing field work on English
>
> with no orthography and little other information to rely on--or be misled
> = by. When you hear /aimn@go/ you would by no stretch of the
> imaginatio= n connect that to "I am going to go." Rather,
> you'd identif= y the first person singular subject pronoun, the /m/
>
> perhaps marking progressive aspect (although you'd properly have
> doub= ts about that conclusion), and the /n@/ as some sort of future or
> intention= al marker worthy of considerably more research.
>
> Maybe, after comparin=
>
> g a number of dialects you might come up with
>
> a historical internal reconstruction that related the form to "am
> goi= ng to," but that would have about as much bearing on your
> synchronic g= rammatical description as the equally historical discovery
> that the -t of &= quot;height" and the -th of "width" are
> the same
>
> thing. </p>
>
> <p><br>
>
> </p>
>
> <p>I fear sometimes that the extent to which our descriptions look like
> our=
>
> orthography or our grammatical traditions, they are not evidence-based.
> &n= bsp;The fact is that the results of grammaticalization are frequently
> not r= ecoverable except by diligent study by
>
> trained grammarians; they remain opaque to normal native speakers.<br>
> </p> <p><br> </p> <p>Herb <br> </p> <div> <p><br> </p> <p><br>
> </p> <div class=3D"BodyFragment"><font size=3D"2"> <div
> class=3D"PlainText">Herbert F. W. Stahlke, Ph.D.<br> Emeritus Professor of
> English<br> Ball State University<br> Muncie, IN 47306<br>
> <mailto:[log in to unmask]> [log in to unmask]</div> </font></div>
> </div> <div style=3D"color: rgb(33, 33, 33);"> <hr tabindex=3D"-1"
> style=3D"display:inline-block; width:98%"> <div id=3D"divRplyFwdMsg"
> dir=3D"ltr"><font face=3D"Calibri, sans-serif" co= lor=3D"#000000"
>
> style=3D"font-size:11pt"><b>From:</b>
>
> Assembly for the Teac=
>
> hing of English Grammar <[log in to unmask]> on behalf of
> Hanc= ock, Craig G <[log in to unmask]><br> <b>Sent:</b> Friday,
> July 11, 2014 10:13 AM<br> <b>To:</b>
> <mailto:[log in to unmask]> [log in to unmask]<br>
> <b>Subject:</b> Re: Relevance of Syntax & Semantics: "I'm gonna
> wr= ite me some music about"</font> <div> </div> </div> <div>
> <div class=3D"WordSection1"> <p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span
> style=3D"font-size:11.0pt; font-family:"C=
> alibri","sans-serif";
>
> color:#1F497D">Bob,</span></p>
>
> <p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span
>
> style=3D"font-size:11.0pt; font-family:"C=
> alibri","sans-serif";
>
> color:#1F497D"> Phon= etic reduction is a dynamic process
> directly related to frequency. Since = =93going to=94 can now combine in
> auxiliary like ways with main verbs, its = use
>
> has dramatically expanded. Frequency of use correlates well with phonetic
> = reduction. It=92s an observation about how language shifts in form as it
> ta= kes on new (expanded) function.
>
> <i>Want to</i> has expanded range of use in the same way. The same
> patterns=
>
> are at work in its reduction.The consensus seems to be that it has modal
> l= ike qualities.</span></p> <p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span
> style=3D"font-size:11.0pt; font-family:"C=
> alibri","sans-serif";
>
> color:#1F497D"> Biol= ogists make observations about form
> all the time without thinking of life i= tself as a formal system. What we
> need, I think, is the equivalent of an
>
> anatomy and physiology. In the world of biology, the two are dynamically
> c= onnected. No one would argue (scientifically) that biological forms are
> ind= ependent of function and no one would propose that forms are
> unimportant.
>
> </span></p>
>
> <p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span
>
> style=3D"font-size:11.0pt; font-family:"C=
> alibri","sans-serif";
>
> color:#1F497D">  =
>
> ;In the biological world, it=92s hard to draw strict clear lines between
> ca= tegories in part because adaptation is constant. Bybee=92s point=97and
> she= =92s not the
>
> only one making it=97is that language is more like biology than it is
> like=
>
> physics and chemistry. In some ways, this is a renewed interest in
> empiric= al observation. This is certainly not a retreat from form.
>
> </span></p>
>
> <p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span
>
> style=3D"font-size:11.0pt; font-family:"C=
> alibri","sans-serif";
>
> color:#1F497D"> </span></p>
>
> <p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span
>
> style=3D"font-size:11.0pt; font-family:"C=
> alibri","sans-serif";
>
> color:#1F497D">Craig</span></p>
>
> <p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span
>
> style=3D"font-size:11.0pt; font-family:"C=
> alibri","sans-serif";
>
> color:#1F497D"> </span></p>
>
> <div>
>
> <div style=3D"border:none; border-top:solid #B5C4DF 1.0pt; padding:3.0pt
> 0i= n 0in 0in"> <p class=3D"MsoNormal"><b><span
> style=3D"font-size:10.0pt; font-family:&quo=
> t;Tahoma","sans-serif"">From:</span></b><span
>
> style=3D"font-=
>
> size:10.0pt;
>
> font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"">
>
> Assemb=
>
> ly for the Teaching of English Grammar [ <mailto:[log in to unmask]>
> mailto:[log in to unmask]]
>
> <b>On Behalf Of </b>Bob Yates<br>
>
> <b>Sent:</b> Thursday, July 10, 2014 6:16 PM<br> <b>To:</b>
> <mailto:[log in to unmask]> [log in to unmask]<br>
> <b>Subject:</b> Re: Relevance of Syntax & Semantics: "I'm gonna
> wr= ite me some music about"</span></p> </div> </div> <p
> class=3D"MsoNormal"> </p> <div> <div> <p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span
> style=3D"font-family:"Calibri","=
>
> ;sans-serif"">I=92m confused by the following observation from
> Craig.<= /span></p> </div> <div> <p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span
> style=3D"font-family:"Calibri","=
>
> ;sans-serif""> </span></p>
>
> </div>
>
> <div>
>
> <p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span
>
> style=3D"font-family:"Calibri","=
>
> ;sans-serif""> </span></p>
>
> </div>
>
> <div>
>
> <div>
>
> <p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span
>
> style=3D"font-family:"Calibri","=
>
> ;sans-serif""> </span></p>
>
> </div>
>
> <div>
>
> <p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span
>
> style=3D"font-family:"Calibri","=
>
> ;sans-serif"">Sent from Windows
>
> Mail</span></p>
>
> </div>
>
> <div>
>
> <p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span
>
> style=3D"font-family:"Calibri","=
>
> ;sans-serif""> </span></p>
>
> </div>
>
> </div>
>
> <div style=3D"border:none; border-top:solid #E5E5E5 1.0pt; padding:4.0pt
> 0i= n 0in 0in"> <div> <p class=3D"MsoNormal"><b><span
> style=3D"font-family:"Calibri",&q=
>
> uot;sans-serif";
>
> letter-spacing:.25pt">From:</span></b><span
>
> style=3D"=
>
> font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";
>
> letter-spacing:.25p=
>
> t"> <a href=3D" <mailto:[log in to unmask]>
> mailto:[log in to unmask]"
>
> target=3D"_parent">Hancock,=
>
> Craig G</a><br>
>
> <b>Sent:</b> =FDThursday=FD, =FDJuly=FD =FD10=FD, =FD2014
> =FD2=FD:=FD0= 6=FD =FDPM<br> <b>To:</b> <a href=3D"
> <mailto:[log in to unmask]> mailto:[log in to unmask]"
>
> target=3D"_par=
>
> ent"> <mailto:[log in to unmask]>
> [log in to unmask]</a></span><span
>
> style=3D"font-family:"C=
>
> alibri","sans-serif""></span></p>
>
> </div>
>
> </div>
>
> <div>
>
> <p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span
>
> style=3D"font-family:"Calibri","=
>
> ;sans-serif""> </span></p>
>
> </div>
>
> <div>
>
> <div id=3D"OWAFontStyleDivID">
>
> <p style=3D"background:white"><em><span
>
> style=3D"font-family:"Calibri&=
>
> quot;,"sans-serif"; color:black">As Bybee points out,
> t</span></e= m><span
> style=3D"font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";
>
> co=
>
> lor:black">he kind of phonetic reduction we get with 'gonna' and oughtta'
> i= s typical
>
> of grammaticalization. We don't say "I'm gonna New York" for
> &qu= ot;I'm going to New York," but we do say "I'm gonna take
> the trai= n to New York" or "It's gonna rain." We only use
> it for expr= essions of intention and prediction, which are modal in
> function. This woul= d
>
> be a good formal argument for "going to" functioning as a
> consti= tuent group when modal functions are carried out, but not for
> physical move=
>
> ment:
>
> <em><span
>
> style=3D"font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif"">=
>
> going</span></em> plus <em><span
>
> style=3D"font-family:"Calibri",&=
>
> quot;sans-serif"">to New
>
> York</span></em>. </span></p>
>
> <p style=3D"background:white"><span
>
> style=3D"font-family:"Calibri"=
>
> ;,"sans-serif";
>
> color:black"> </span></p>
>
> <p style=3D"background:white"><span
>
> style=3D"font-family:"Calibri"=
>
> ;,"sans-serif"; color:black">Now, if I understand Craig
> correctly= , language is not a formal system, yet he just made a formal
> distinction be= tween =93going to=94 verb vs.=94 going to=94
> location. It seems
>
> to me that we are dealing with two different to=92s. The to
> in = =93going to=94 marks a verb and the to in making a
> location is a&= nbsp;preposition. </span></p> <p
> style=3D"background:white"><span style=3D"font-family:"Calibri"=
>
> ;,"sans-serif";
>
> color:black"> </span></p>
>
> <p style=3D"background:white"><span
>
> style=3D"font-family:"Calibri"=
>
> ;,"sans-serif"; color:black">By the way, gonna reduction is
> = also reflected in wanna. </span></p> <p
> style=3D"background:white"><span style=3D"font-family:"Calibri"=
>
> ;,"sans-serif";
>
> color:black"> </span></p>
>
> <p style=3D"background:white"><span
>
> style=3D"font-family:"Calibri"=
>
> ;,"sans-serif"; color:black">Bob Yates, University of Central
> Mis= souri </span></p> </div> </div> </div> </div> </div>
> </div> </div> </body> </html>
>
> --_000_140509342553356225bsuedu_--
>
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> ------------------------------
>
> Date: Thu, 14 Aug 2014 02:10:39 +0000
> From: "Stahlke, Herbert" <[log in to unmask]>
> Subject: Re: Relevance of Syntax & Semantics: "I'm gonna write me some music about"
>
> I appreciate Richard's examples, and such deliberate fragments are indeed an option any writer has. I think Richard bases his argument on a practice many of us have followed over the years, collecting and classifying examples of structures that seem interesting in some way. I suspect on this list alone there are multiple collections that various members have put together over the years. I must confess that I haven't been as diligent in the practice as I'd like to have been.
>
> It might make a very useful resource if our various lists could be put together somehow, but I wouldn't be surprised if they vary enough in format and structure that combining them wouldn't be easy.
>
> But thanks go to Richard and everyone else who has amassed such collections that they can draw on to make our discussions richer and deeper. It's a practice that has a long history in the field. Before computers made large databases more manageable, Scholars like Otto Jespersen manually collected, organized, and filed huge collections of slips of paper. Jespersen's seven-volume Grammar of Modern English on Historical Principals is grounded in his archive that covers Old English on through to Late Modern English. And of course the OED began in a similar way, even though it's largely computer based today. If you haven't read Simon Winchester's The Professor and the Madman, I recommend it as a well-written, compelling story of the early days of the OED.
>
> Herb
>
> From: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar [mailto:[log in to unmask]] On Behalf Of Prof. Richard Grant WAU
> Sent: Wednesday, August 13, 2014 6:12 PM
> To: [log in to unmask]
> Subject: Re: Relevance of Syntax & Semantics: "I'm gonna write me some music about"
>
>
> I agree with Herb's conclusion that the example is grammatical.
>
>
>
> I would, however, go further to say that such examples are not limited to informal registers and/or dialog but are rather intentional stylistic options for conveying effects and are used frequently by professional writers. In rhetorical circles they are referred to as a deliberate fragments or virtual sentences. By definition, deliberate fragment-as opposed to accidental ones-are complete thoughts represented by a basic sentence pattern or even just a word and are functionally used for doing the following:
>
>
>
> 1. introducing a topic
>
> 2. describing a scene
>
> 3. representing conversation
>
> 4. providing a succinct (perhaps even terse) conclusion
>
> 5. emphasizing a point or an idea
>
>
>
> Here are three excerpts that demonstrate examples of deliberate fragments:
>
>
>
> 1. Early, grainy half-light in an old apartment by the frozen river. Gerry slips in the brown-aired entryway and jiggles the key in the lock, pulling outward the way Dot told him, closing the door after and treading softly up the cat-grey carpeted stairs. -Louise Erdrich
>
>
>
> 2. He had been expecting something more definite-chest pains, a stroke, arthritis-but it was only weakness that put a finish to his living alone. A numbness in his head, an airy feeling when he walked. A wateriness in his bones that made it an effort to pick up his coffee cup in the morning. -Anne Tyler
>
>
>
> 3. But today, on this first day of May 2000, as Kerry sits in the cab of his truck describing these wonderful playgrounds of his childhood, the places themselves no longer exist, having all turned to open water years ago. The bayous, the lakes, the forests, the magical islands - all gone. It's not like having your house burn down with all your childhood mementos in it, he tells me. Baseball cards, photographs, trophies. The loss is absolute. Mike Tidwell, Bayou Farewell (112)
>
>
>
>
>
> Richard
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar [mailto:[log in to unmask]] On Behalf Of Stahlke, Herbert
> Sent: Wednesday, August 13, 2014 11:47 AM
> To: [log in to unmask]<mailto:[log in to unmask]>
> Subject: Re: Relevance of Syntax & Semantics: "I'm gonna write me some music about"
>
>
>
> I'd say it's a matter of register. It's certainly not formal academic writing. The average freshman comp instructor would probably label it a sentence fragment. Hoowever, in dialog or in informal writing of other sorts it strikes me as both grammatical and apt. It has a clear topic-comment structure. Before the dash is background information, and after the dash is the predicate. Omission of subject pronoun and Be verb is a marker of informal, casual style.
>
>
>
> Herb
>
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
>
> From: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar [mailto:[log in to unmask]] On Behalf Of [log in to unmask]<mailto:[log in to unmask]>
>
> Sent: Wednesday, August 13, 2014 10:59 AM
>
> To: [log in to unmask]<mailto:[log in to unmask]>
>
> Subject: Re: Relevance of Syntax & Semantics: "I'm gonna write me some music about"
>
>
>
> Herbert,
>
> Please help with the following:
>
>
>
> Is this grammatically wrong?
>
>
>
> "Running errands, doing the laundry, walking the dogs--ready for this day to be over."
>
>
>
> Thanks!
>
> --------------------------------------------
>
> On Fri, 7/11/14, Stahlke, Herbert <[log in to unmask]<mailto:[log in to unmask]>> wrote:
>
>
>
> Subject: Re: Relevance of Syntax & Semantics: "I'm gonna write me some music about"
>
> To: [log in to unmask]<mailto:[log in to unmask]>
>
> Date: Friday, July 11, 2014, 11:43 AM
>
>
>
>
>
> <[log in to unmask]<mailto:[log in to unmask]>>,<[log in to unmask]<mailto:[log in to unmask]>>
>
> In-Reply-To: <[log in to unmask]<mailto:[log in to unmask]>>
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> Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
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>
>
> I'd like to take Craig's thoughts a step further. As one who began his lin= guistic life doing field work on languages he knew little about, I'm sensit= ive to the influence a standard orthography has on our analyses. Suppose y= ou were doing field work on English with no orthography and little other in= formation to rely on--or be misled by. When you hear /aimn@go/ you would b= y no stretch of the imagination connect that to "I am going to go." Rather= , you'd identify the first person singular subject pronoun, the /m/ perhaps=
>
> marking progressive aspect (although you'd properly have doubts about that=
>
> conclusion), and the /n@/ as some sort of future or intentional marker wor= thy of considerably more research. Maybe, after comparing a number of dial= ects you might come up with a historical internal reconstruction that relat= ed the form to "am going to," but that would have about as much bearing on = your synchronic grammatical description as the equally historical discovery=
>
> that the -t of "height" and the -th of "width" are the same thing.
>
>
>
>
>
> I fear sometimes that the extent to which our descriptions look like our or= thography or our grammatical traditions, they are not evidence-based. The = fact is that the results of grammaticalization are frequently not recoverab= le except by diligent study by trained grammarians; they remain opaque to n= ormal native speakers.
>
>
>
>
>
> Herb
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> Herbert F. W. Stahlke, Ph.D.
>
> Emeritus Professor of English
>
> Ball State University
>
> Muncie, IN 47306
>
> [log in to unmask]<mailto:[log in to unmask]>
>
> ________________________________
>
> From: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar <[log in to unmask] DU<mailto:[log in to unmask]>> on behalf of Hancock, Craig G <[log in to unmask]<mailto:[log in to unmask]>>
>
> Sent: Friday, July 11, 2014 10:13 AM
>
> To: [log in to unmask]<mailto:[log in to unmask]>
>
> Subject: Re: Relevance of Syntax & Semantics: "I'm gonna write me some musi= c about"
>
>
>
> Bob,
>
> Phonetic reduction is a dynamic process directly related to frequency. = Since =93going to=94 can now combine in auxiliary like ways with main verbs= , its use has dramatically expanded. Frequency of use correlates well with = phonetic reduction. It=92s an observation about how language shifts in form=
>
> as it takes on new (expanded) function. Want to has expanded range of use = in the same way. The same patterns are at work in its reduction.The consens= us seems to be that it has modal like qualities.
>
> Biologists make observations about form all the time without thinking o= f life itself as a formal system. What we need, I think, is the equivalent = of an anatomy and physiology. In the world of biology, the two are dynamica= lly connected. No one would argue (scientifically) that biological forms ar= e independent of function and no one would propose that forms are unimporta= nt.
>
> In the biological world, it=92s hard to draw strict clear lines between=
>
> categories in part because adaptation is constant.
>
> Bybee=92s point=97and s=
>
> he=92s not the only one making it=97is that language is more like biology t= han it is like physics and chemistry. In some ways, this is a renewed inter= est in empirical observation. This is certainly not a retreat from form.
>
>
>
> Craig
>
>
>
> From: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar [mailto:[log in to unmask] AMIOH.EDU<mailto:[log in to unmask]>] On Behalf Of Bob Yates
>
> Sent: Thursday, July 10, 2014 6:16 PM
>
> To: [log in to unmask]<mailto:[log in to unmask]>
>
> Subject: Re: Relevance of Syntax & Semantics: "I'm gonna write me some musi= c about"
>
>
>
> I=92m confused by the following observation from Craig.
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> Sent from Windows Mail
>
>
>
> From: Hancock, Craig G<mailto:[log in to unmask]>
>
> Sent: =FDThursday=FD, =FDJuly=FD =FD10=FD, =FD2014 =FD2=FD:=FD06=FD =FDPM
>
> To: [log in to unmask]<mailto:[log in to unmask]<mailto:[log in to unmask]:[log in to unmask]>>
>
>
>
>
>
> As Bybee points out, the kind of phonetic reduction we get with 'gonna' and=
>
> oughtta' is typical of grammaticalization. We don't say "I'm gonna New Yor= k" for "I'm going to New York," but we do say "I'm gonna take the train to = New York" or "It's gonna rain." We only use it for expressions of intention=
>
> and prediction, which are modal in function. This would be a good formal a= rgument for "going to" functioning as a constituent group when modal functi= ons are carried out, but not for physical movement: going plus to New York.
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> Now, if I understand Craig correctly, language is not a formal system, yet = he just made a formal distinction between =93going to=94 verb vs.=94 going =
>
> to=94 location. It seems to me that we are dealing with two different to= =92s. The to in =93going to=94 marks a verb and the to in making a locatio= n is a preposition.
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> By the way, gonna reduction is also reflected in wanna.
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> Bob Yates, University of Central Missouri
>
>
>
> --_000_140509342553356225bsuedu_
>
> Content-Type: text/html; charset="windows-1256"
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>
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>
> und-color:#FFFFFF;font-family:Calibri,Arial,Helvetica,sans-serif;">
>
> <p>I'd like to take Craig's thoughts a step further.
>
> As one who began=
>
> his linguistic life doing field work on languages he knew little about, I'= m sensitive to the influence a standard orthography has on our analyses. &n= bsp;Suppose you were doing field work on English
>
> with no orthography and little other information to rely on--or be misled = by. When you hear /aimn@go/ you would by no stretch of the imaginatio= n connect that to "I am going to go." Rather, you'd identif= y the first person singular subject pronoun, the /m/
>
> perhaps marking progressive aspect (although you'd properly have doub= ts about that conclusion), and the /n@/ as some sort of future or intention= al marker worthy of considerably more research.
>
> Maybe, after comparin=
>
> g a number of dialects you might come up with
>
> a historical internal reconstruction that related the form to "am goi= ng to," but that would have about as much bearing on your synchronic g= rammatical description as the equally historical discovery that the -t of &= quot;height" and the -th of "width" are the same
>
> thing. </p>
>
> <p><br>
>
> </p>
>
> <p>I fear sometimes that the extent to which our descriptions look like our=
>
> orthography or our grammatical traditions, they are not evidence-based. &n= bsp;The fact is that the results of grammaticalization are frequently not r= ecoverable except by diligent study by
>
> trained grammarians; they remain opaque to normal native speakers.<br> </p> <p><br> </p> <p>Herb <br> </p> <div> <p><br> </p> <p><br> </p> <div class=3D"BodyFragment"><font size=3D"2"> <div class=3D"PlainText">Herbert F. W. Stahlke, Ph.D.<br> Emeritus Professor of English<br> Ball State University<br> Muncie, IN 47306<br> [log in to unmask]</div<mailto:[log in to unmask]>> </font></div> </div> <div style=3D"color: rgb(33, 33, 33);"> <hr tabindex=3D"-1" style=3D"display:inline-block; width:98%"> <div id=3D"divRplyFwdMsg" dir=3D"ltr"><font face=3D"Calibri, sans-serif" co= lor=3D"#000000"
>
> style=3D"font-size:11pt"><b>From:</b>
>
> Assembly for the Teac=
>
> hing of English Grammar <[log in to unmask]> on behalf of Hanc= ock, Craig G <[log in to unmask]><br> <b>Sent:</b> Friday, July 11, 2014 10:13 AM<br> <b>To:</b> [log in to unmask]<br<mailto:[log in to unmask]>> <b>Subject:</b> Re: Relevance of Syntax & Semantics: "I'm gonna wr= ite me some music about"</font> <div> </div> </div> <div> <div class=3D"WordSection1"> <p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt; font-family:"C= alibri","sans-serif";
>
> color:#1F497D">Bob,</span></p>
>
> <p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span
>
> style=3D"font-size:11.0pt; font-family:"C= alibri","sans-serif";
>
> color:#1F497D"> Phon= etic reduction is a dynamic process directly related to frequency. Since = =93going to=94 can now combine in auxiliary like ways with main verbs, its = use
>
> has dramatically expanded. Frequency of use correlates well with phonetic = reduction. It=92s an observation about how language shifts in form as it ta= kes on new (expanded) function.
>
> <i>Want to</i> has expanded range of use in the same way. The same patterns=
>
> are at work in its reduction.The consensus seems to be that it has modal l= ike qualities.</span></p> <p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt; font-family:"C= alibri","sans-serif";
>
> color:#1F497D"> Biol= ogists make observations about form all the time without thinking of life i= tself as a formal system. What we need, I think, is the equivalent of an
>
> anatomy and physiology. In the world of biology, the two are dynamically c= onnected. No one would argue (scientifically) that biological forms are ind= ependent of function and no one would propose that forms are unimportant.
>
> </span></p>
>
> <p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span
>
> style=3D"font-size:11.0pt; font-family:"C= alibri","sans-serif";
>
> color:#1F497D">  =
>
> ;In the biological world, it=92s hard to draw strict clear lines between ca= tegories in part because adaptation is constant. Bybee=92s point=97and she= =92s not the
>
> only one making it=97is that language is more like biology than it is like=
>
> physics and chemistry. In some ways, this is a renewed interest in empiric= al observation. This is certainly not a retreat from form.
>
> </span></p>
>
> <p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span
>
> style=3D"font-size:11.0pt; font-family:"C= alibri","sans-serif";
>
> color:#1F497D"> </span></p>
>
> <p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span
>
> style=3D"font-size:11.0pt; font-family:"C= alibri","sans-serif";
>
> color:#1F497D">Craig</span></p>
>
> <p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span
>
> style=3D"font-size:11.0pt; font-family:"C= alibri","sans-serif";
>
> color:#1F497D"> </span></p>
>
> <div>
>
> <div style=3D"border:none; border-top:solid #B5C4DF 1.0pt; padding:3.0pt 0i= n 0in 0in"> <p class=3D"MsoNormal"><b><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt; font-family:&quo= t;Tahoma","sans-serif"">From:</span></b><span
>
> style=3D"font-=
>
> size:10.0pt;
>
> font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"">
>
> Assemb=
>
> ly for the Teaching of English Grammar [mailto:[log in to unmask]]
>
> <b>On Behalf Of </b>Bob Yates<br>
>
> <b>Sent:</b> Thursday, July 10, 2014 6:16 PM<br> <b>To:</b> [log in to unmask]<br<mailto:[log in to unmask]>> <b>Subject:</b> Re: Relevance of Syntax & Semantics: "I'm gonna wr= ite me some music about"</span></p> </div> </div> <p class=3D"MsoNormal"> </p> <div> <div> <p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-family:"Calibri","=
>
> ;sans-serif"">I=92m confused by the following observation from Craig.<= /span></p> </div> <div> <p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-family:"Calibri","=
>
> ;sans-serif""> </span></p>
>
> </div>
>
> <div>
>
> <p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span
>
> style=3D"font-family:"Calibri","=
>
> ;sans-serif""> </span></p>
>
> </div>
>
> <div>
>
> <div>
>
> <p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span
>
> style=3D"font-family:"Calibri","=
>
> ;sans-serif""> </span></p>
>
> </div>
>
> <div>
>
> <p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span
>
> style=3D"font-family:"Calibri","=
>
> ;sans-serif"">Sent from Windows
>
> Mail</span></p>
>
> </div>
>
> <div>
>
> <p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span
>
> style=3D"font-family:"Calibri","=
>
> ;sans-serif""> </span></p>
>
> </div>
>
> </div>
>
> <div style=3D"border:none; border-top:solid #E5E5E5 1.0pt; padding:4.0pt 0i= n 0in 0in"> <div> <p class=3D"MsoNormal"><b><span style=3D"font-family:"Calibri",&q=
>
> uot;sans-serif";
>
> letter-spacing:.25pt">From:</span></b><span
>
> style=3D"=
>
> font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";
>
> letter-spacing:.25p=
>
> t"> <a href=3D"mailto:[log in to unmask]"
>
> target=3D"_parent">Hancock,=
>
> Craig G</a><br>
>
> <b>Sent:</b> =FDThursday=FD, =FDJuly=FD =FD10=FD, =FD2014 =FD2=FD:=FD0= 6=FD =FDPM<br> <b>To:</b> <a href=3D"mailto:[log in to unmask]"
>
> target=3D"_par=
>
> ent">[log in to unmask]</a></span><span<mailto:[log in to unmask]>
>
> style=3D"font-family:"C=
>
> alibri","sans-serif""></span></p>
>
> </div>
>
> </div>
>
> <div>
>
> <p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span
>
> style=3D"font-family:"Calibri","=
>
> ;sans-serif""> </span></p>
>
> </div>
>
> <div>
>
> <div id=3D"OWAFontStyleDivID">
>
> <p style=3D"background:white"><em><span
>
> style=3D"font-family:"Calibri&=
>
> quot;,"sans-serif"; color:black">As Bybee points out, t</span></e= m><span style=3D"font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";
>
> co=
>
> lor:black">he kind of phonetic reduction we get with 'gonna' and oughtta' i= s typical
>
> of grammaticalization. We don't say "I'm gonna New York" for &qu= ot;I'm going to New York," but we do say "I'm gonna take the trai= n to New York" or "It's gonna rain." We only use it for expr= essions of intention and prediction, which are modal in function. This woul= d
>
> be a good formal argument for "going to" functioning as a consti= tuent group when modal functions are carried out, but not for physical move=
>
> ment:
>
> <em><span
>
> style=3D"font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif"">=
>
> going</span></em> plus <em><span
>
> style=3D"font-family:"Calibri",&=
>
> quot;sans-serif"">to New
>
> York</span></em>. </span></p>
>
> <p style=3D"background:white"><span
>
> style=3D"font-family:"Calibri"=
>
> ;,"sans-serif";
>
> color:black"> </span></p>
>
> <p style=3D"background:white"><span
>
> style=3D"font-family:"Calibri"=
>
> ;,"sans-serif"; color:black">Now, if I understand Craig correctly= , language is not a formal system, yet he just made a formal distinction be= tween =93going to=94 verb vs.=94 going to=94 location. It seems
>
> to me that we are dealing with two different to=92s. The to in = =93going to=94 marks a verb and the to in making a location is a&= nbsp;preposition. </span></p> <p style=3D"background:white"><span style=3D"font-family:"Calibri"=
>
> ;,"sans-serif";
>
> color:black"> </span></p>
>
> <p style=3D"background:white"><span
>
> style=3D"font-family:"Calibri"=
>
> ;,"sans-serif"; color:black">By the way, gonna reduction is = also reflected in wanna. </span></p> <p style=3D"background:white"><span style=3D"font-family:"Calibri"=
>
> ;,"sans-serif";
>
> color:black"> </span></p>
>
> <p style=3D"background:white"><span
>
> style=3D"font-family:"Calibri"=
>
> ;,"sans-serif"; color:black">Bob Yates, University of Central Mis= souri </span></p> </div> </div> </div> </div> </div> </div> </div> </body> </html>
>
>
>
> --_000_140509342553356225bsuedu_--
>
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> End of ATEG Digest - 7 Aug 2014 to 13 Aug 2014 (#2014-37)
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