Maureen asks some good questions and raises some interesting food for
thought. Regarding the punctuation vs. grammar question, I would point out
that the whole notion of the comma splice (or that horrid term, run-on
sentence) is itself an error that exists only in writing. It, therefore,
seems to me a moot point -- the question will come up regardless of how we
label it. In English Language Arts, the concepts of punctuation, mechanics,
and even usage all seem to be shoved under the grammar umbrella, for good or
ill.
I also agree that all these conventions are fallible and flexible, but that
the flexibility is often tied to time and place (as the Dickens example in
part, I think, illustrates). What is acceptable to one period and place is
not acceptable to another. As a teacher, I often point out that in learning
Standard English, we are focusing on what is acceptable NOW, even though it
may have been and may in future become unacceptable or different.
For the record, by the way, I don't think that seventh grade is too early
for students to learn about gray areas in language.
Paul E. Doniger
----- Original Message -----
From: Maureen Fitzpatrick <[log in to unmask]>
To: <[log in to unmask]>
Sent: Saturday, June 30, 2001 11:13 AM
Subject: Re: comma splice
> I think Paul Doniger's wonderful observations about Dicken's raise the
> larger question - is punctuation "grammar"?
>
> There are, of course, at least two kinds of grammar - the grammar that
keeps
> us from writing "wrinkles spots and laundry out get hopefully will" and
the
> grammar that stops us from writing "we is tired so we tooked a naps" and I
> think we could find dozens of definitions or distinctions in between.
>
> But, strictly speaking, is how you punctuate "grammar" or is it just an
> artificial and completely invented way of trying to organize a language
> which was originally developed to be oral so that it makes sense when
> written (or is it something in between)?
>
> If we accept that punctuation is a made-up thing, standardized by printers
> and varying somewhat from nation to nation, can't its conventions be both
> flexible and fallible? And, to get back to one of the original questions,
is
> seventh grade really too early for writer's to understand that everything
in
> writing is not always black and white, correct or incorrect?
>
> Maureen Fitzpatrick
> Associate Professor, English
> Johnson County Community College
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Paul E. Doniger [mailto:[log in to unmask]]
> Sent: Friday, June 29, 2001 4:59 PM
> To: [log in to unmask]
> Subject: Re: comma splice
>
> Here's a poser for all:
>
> The recent discussion regarding comma splices reminds me of an interesting
> literary reference. In Dickens's _A Tale of Two Cities_, the opening
> paragraph is punctuated as a single sentence with each item in the list of
> antitheses separated by a comma. I wonder how all we would explain this to
> the students who would raise (and, in my experience, HAVE raised) the
> comment that it's a "run-on sentence." Would you say that all these items
> are elements in a list? Wouldn't you want to separate each antithesis
group
> with end punctuation: "It was the best of times, it was the worst of
times.
> It was the age of wisdom, it was the age of foolishness." and so forth?
>
> How would you explain the dash (is it an em-dash?) that separates the list
> from the main sentence? What would each of you identify as the main
subject
> and predicate (I would probably say, "The core sentence of the whole
> paragraph is 'authorities insisted', which is also one of the main
thematic
> elements of the story."). How, finally, would you deal with the inevitable
> complaint that the paragraph is not a paragraph, but rather a sentence?
>
> And then ... which one of us would be so rash as to correct Dickens?
>
> Here's a good example, I think, of an opportunity to teach grammar and
> literature together.
>
> Paul E. Doniger
>
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