I beloeve that your two phrases in question are elliptical--missing a
'with." Otherwise, I would look at gerunds: his sipping...my groping.
Scott Catledge
Professor Emeritus
-----Original Message-----
From: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar
[mailto:[log in to unmask]] On Behalf Of ATEG automatic digest system
Sent: Monday, December 01, 2008 12:00 AM
To: [log in to unmask]
Subject: ATEG Digest - 29 Nov 2008 to 30 Nov 2008 (#2008-250)
There are 12 messages totalling 1530 lines in this issue.
Topics of the day:
1. Correct? (9)
2. past-perfect trolling (3)
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Date: Sun, 30 Nov 2008 06:44:33 -0500
From: John Crow <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Correct?
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What are the structures appended to the end of the main clause below? They
feel like participles, but they have pseudo-subjects. Is it correct to use
the objective pronouns in these structures?
*I slipped my backpack off, and we sat down at one of the metal tables
overlooking the pool, him sipping his Mountain Dew and me groping for a pen
and paper.
*I hope everyone had a great Thanksgiving!
Thanks,
John
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What are the structures appended to the end of the main clause below?
They feel like participles, but they have pseudo-subjects. Is it
correct to use the objective pronouns in these structures?
<br><br><font size="2" face="Tahoma"><strong>I slipped my backpack off, and
we
sat down at one of the metal tables overlooking the pool, him sipping
his Mountain Dew and me groping for a pen and
paper.<br><br></strong></font>I hope everyone had a great
Thanksgiving!<br><br>Thanks,<br>John<br>
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------=_Part_45628_22177676.1228045473854--
------------------------------
Date: Sun, 30 Nov 2008 09:23:25 -0500
From: Craig Hancock <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Re: Correct?
John,
I would classify them as "absolutes", which I would define as subject
bearing participle clauses. (Traditional grammar calls them phrases.)
My own preference would be for "he" and "I" in the subject roles, but
these are also commonly introduced by "with", which could be thought of
as understood here. "I slipped my backpack off, and we sat down at one
of the metal tables overlooking the pool, with him sipping his Mountain
Dew and me groping for pen and paper." Maybe the writer drafted it with
"with" and then took it out, leaving the objective pronouns.
Hope that helps.
Craig
>
What are the structures appended to the end of the main clause below?
> They
> feel like participles, but they have pseudo-subjects. Is it correct to
> use
> the objective pronouns in these structures?
>
> *I slipped my backpack off, and we sat down at one of the metal tables
> overlooking the pool, him sipping his Mountain Dew and me groping for a
> pen
> and paper.
>
> *I hope everyone had a great Thanksgiving!
>
> Thanks,
> John
>
> To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web interface
> at:
> http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html
> and select "Join or leave the list"
>
> Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/
>
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------------------------------
Date: Sun, 30 Nov 2008 09:36:44 -0500
From: John Crow <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Re: Correct?
------=_Part_46127_30984129.1228055804519
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You are dead on as usual. I see now that calling them absolutes is a much
more logical analysis. The possibly understood "with" is great!
Thanks, Craig.
John
On Sun, Nov 30, 2008 at 9:23 AM, Craig Hancock <[log in to unmask]> wrote:
> John,
> I would classify them as "absolutes", which I would define as subject
> bearing participle clauses. (Traditional grammar calls them phrases.)
> My own preference would be for "he" and "I" in the subject roles, but
> these are also commonly introduced by "with", which could be thought of
> as understood here. "I slipped my backpack off, and we sat down at one
> of the metal tables overlooking the pool, with him sipping his Mountain
> Dew and me groping for pen and paper." Maybe the writer drafted it with
> "with" and then took it out, leaving the objective pronouns.
> Hope that helps.
>
> Craig
> >
>
>
> What are the structures appended to the end of the main clause below?
> > They
> > feel like participles, but they have pseudo-subjects. Is it correct to
> > use
> > the objective pronouns in these structures?
> >
> > *I slipped my backpack off, and we sat down at one of the metal tables
> > overlooking the pool, him sipping his Mountain Dew and me groping for a
> > pen
> > and paper.
> >
> > *I hope everyone had a great Thanksgiving!
> >
> > Thanks,
> > John
> >
> > To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web
> interface
> > at:
> > http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html
> > and select "Join or leave the list"
> >
> > Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/
> >
>
> To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web interface
> at:
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>
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You are dead on as usual. I see now that calling them absolutes is a
much more logical analysis. The possibly understood "with"
is great!<br><br>Thanks, Craig.<br>John<br><br><div class="gmail_quote">On
Sun, Nov 30, 2008 at 9:23 AM, Craig Hancock <span dir="ltr"><<a
href="mailto:[log in to unmask]">[log in to unmask]</a>></span>
wrote:<br>
<blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="border-left: 1px solid rgb(204, 204,
204); margin: 0pt 0pt 0pt 0.8ex; padding-left: 1ex;">John,<br>
I would classify them as "absolutes", which I would define
as subject<br>
bearing participle clauses. (Traditional grammar calls them phrases.)<br>
My own preference would be for "he" and "I" in
the subject roles, but<br>
these are also commonly introduced by "with", which could be
thought of<br>
as understood here. "I slipped my backpack off, and we sat down at
one<br>
of the metal tables overlooking the pool, with him sipping his Mountain<br>
Dew and me groping for pen and paper." Maybe the writer drafted it
with<br>
"with" and then took it out, leaving the objective pronouns.<br>
Hope that helps.<br>
<br>
Craig<br>
<div><div></div><div class="Wj3C7c"> ><br>
<br>
<br>
What are the structures appended to the end of the main clause below?<br>
> They<br>
> feel like participles, but they have pseudo-subjects. Is it
correct to<br>
> use<br>
> the objective pronouns in these structures?<br>
><br>
> *I slipped my backpack off, and we sat down at one of the metal
tables<br>
> overlooking the pool, him sipping his Mountain Dew and me groping for
a<br>
> pen<br>
> and paper.<br>
><br>
> *I hope everyone had a great Thanksgiving!<br>
><br>
> Thanks,<br>
> John<br>
><br>
</div></div>> To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the
list's web interface<br>
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target="_blank">http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html</a><br>
> and select "Join or leave the list"<br>
><br>
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target="_blank">http://ateg.org/</a><br>
><br>
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</blockquote></div><br>
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------=_Part_46127_30984129.1228055804519--
------------------------------
Date: Sun, 30 Nov 2008 12:44:54 -0500
From: "STAHLKE, HERBERT F" <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Re: Correct?
I agree that they are nominative absolutes, but I'll follow up on my earlie=
r comment on changes in the function of objective pronouns. This is anothe=
r instance of what were traditionally object pronouns taking on pragmatic r=
oles and marking focus. Like Craig, I would probably use the subjective fo=
rms, but these are among the more acceptable uses of object pronouns in non=
-object position.
Herb
Herbert F. W. Stahlke, Ph.D.
Emeritus Professor of English
Ball State University
Muncie, IN 47306
[log in to unmask]
________________________________________
From: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar [[log in to unmask]
U] On Behalf Of John Crow [[log in to unmask]]
Sent: November 30, 2008 9:36 AM
To: [log in to unmask]
Subject: Re: Correct?
You are dead on as usual. I see now that calling them absolutes is a much =
more logical analysis. The possibly understood "with" is great!
Thanks, Craig.
John
On Sun, Nov 30, 2008 at 9:23 AM, Craig Hancock <[log in to unmask]<mailto:h=
[log in to unmask]>> wrote:
John,
I would classify them as "absolutes", which I would define as subject
bearing participle clauses. (Traditional grammar calls them phrases.)
My own preference would be for "he" and "I" in the subject roles, but
these are also commonly introduced by "with", which could be thought of
as understood here. "I slipped my backpack off, and we sat down at one
of the metal tables overlooking the pool, with him sipping his Mountain
Dew and me groping for pen and paper." Maybe the writer drafted it with
"with" and then took it out, leaving the objective pronouns.
Hope that helps.
Craig
>
What are the structures appended to the end of the main clause below?
> They
> feel like participles, but they have pseudo-subjects. Is it correct to
> use
> the objective pronouns in these structures?
>
> *I slipped my backpack off, and we sat down at one of the metal tables
> overlooking the pool, him sipping his Mountain Dew and me groping for a
> pen
> and paper.
>
> *I hope everyone had a great Thanksgiving!
>
> Thanks,
> John
>
> To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web interfac=
e
> at:
> http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html
> and select "Join or leave the list"
>
> Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/
>
To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web interface =
at:
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at: http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html and select "Join or leave=
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------------------------------
Date: Tue, 1 Jan 2002 12:19:09 -0600
From: DD Farms <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Re: Correct?
At 08:23 AM 11/30/2008, Craig Hancock {N.B. this was not Craig's
sentence. He was responding to it.} wrote:
>. . . "I slipped my backpack off, and we sat down at one
>of the metal tables overlooking the pool, with him sipping his Mountain
>Dew and me groping for pen and paper." . . .
DD: Try what seems to me to be more correct; treat the '...ings' as
gerunds and stick in the possessive pronouns. "...his sipping . . .my
groping . . ." I am not a skilled grammarian, but it also sounds
correct to leave out the 'with' and change the pronouns to the
nominatives as subjects. ". . . pool, he sipping . . . I groping . . ."
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------------------------------
Date: Sun, 30 Nov 2008 12:37:59 -0600
From: "Atchley, Clinton" <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Re: Correct?
In traditional grammar you find a similar use of objective case pronouns
when they function as subjects of infinitives in a sentence like "Bill
wanted him to go home." Here the infinitive "to go" functions as the
direct object since what Bill wanted was the action of going to take
place. Bill does not want "him"; "him" is the agent of the action of
the infinitive. It's quite common actually. "We consider him to be
completely honest." "The teacher let us decorate the room." "We left
after seeing him break the record."
Clinton Atchley, Ph.D.
Associate Professor of English
Box 7652
1100 Henderson Street
Henderson State University
Arkadelphia, AR 71999
Phone: 870.230.5276
Email: [log in to unmask]
Web: http://www.hsu.edu/atchlec=20
-----Original Message-----
From: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar
[mailto:[log in to unmask]] On Behalf Of STAHLKE, HERBERT F
Sent: Sunday, November 30, 2008 11:45 AM
To: [log in to unmask]
Subject: Re: Correct?
I agree that they are nominative absolutes, but I'll follow up on my
earlier comment on changes in the function of objective pronouns. This
is another instance of what were traditionally object pronouns taking on
pragmatic roles and marking focus. Like Craig, I would probably use the
subjective forms, but these are among the more acceptable uses of object
pronouns in non-object position.
Herb
Herbert F. W. Stahlke, Ph.D.
Emeritus Professor of English
Ball State University
Muncie, IN 47306
[log in to unmask]
________________________________________
From: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar
[[log in to unmask]] On Behalf Of John Crow [[log in to unmask]]
Sent: November 30, 2008 9:36 AM
To: [log in to unmask]
Subject: Re: Correct?
You are dead on as usual. I see now that calling them absolutes is a
much more logical analysis. The possibly understood "with" is great!
Thanks, Craig.
John
On Sun, Nov 30, 2008 at 9:23 AM, Craig Hancock
<[log in to unmask]<mailto:[log in to unmask]>> wrote:
John,
I would classify them as "absolutes", which I would define as subject
bearing participle clauses. (Traditional grammar calls them phrases.)
My own preference would be for "he" and "I" in the subject roles, but
these are also commonly introduced by "with", which could be thought of
as understood here. "I slipped my backpack off, and we sat down at one
of the metal tables overlooking the pool, with him sipping his Mountain
Dew and me groping for pen and paper." Maybe the writer drafted it with
"with" and then took it out, leaving the objective pronouns.
Hope that helps.
Craig
>
What are the structures appended to the end of the main clause below?
> They
> feel like participles, but they have pseudo-subjects. Is it correct
to
> use
> the objective pronouns in these structures?
>
> *I slipped my backpack off, and we sat down at one of the metal tables
> overlooking the pool, him sipping his Mountain Dew and me groping for
a
> pen
> and paper.
>
> *I hope everyone had a great Thanksgiving!
>
> Thanks,
> John
>
> To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web
interface
> at:
> http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html
> and select "Join or leave the list"
>
> Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/
>
To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web
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------------------------------
Date: Sun, 30 Nov 2008 11:38:41 -0800
From: Richard Wallis <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: past-perfect trolling
--_690230a9-6b12-4c22-adb0-927fff099ba3_
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Again I'll state one of the definitions of "trolling": FORCING A DISCUSSION=
TO GO AROUND IN CIRCLES FOR ONE'S OWN AMUSEMENT AND THE IRRITATION OF OTHE=
RS=20
=20
Our wind-up troll is at it again. Every time you respond=2C you wind him up=
to keep the circle spinning.
=20
I suggest ignoring the wind-up troll=2C because such Internet denizens rare=
ly stop of their own accord.
_________________________________________________________________
Color coding for safety: Windows Live Hotmail alerts you to suspicious emai=
l.
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--_690230a9-6b12-4c22-adb0-927fff099ba3_
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Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
<html>
<head>
<style>
.hmmessage P
{
margin:0px=3B
padding:0px
}
body.hmmessage
{
font-size: 10pt=3B
font-family:Verdana
}
</style>
</head>
<body class=3D'hmmessage'>
<BR><BR><BR>
<HR id=3DstopSpelling>
<BR>
Again I'll =3Bstate one of the definitions of "trolling": <BR><BR>FORCI=
NG A DISCUSSION TO GO AROUND IN CIRCLES FOR ONE'S OWN AMUSEMENT AND THE IRR=
ITATION OF OTHERS <BR>
 =3B<BR>
Our wind-up troll is at it again. Every time you respond=2C you wind him up=
to keep the circle spinning.<BR>
 =3B<BR>
I suggest ignoring the wind-up troll=2C because such Internet denizens rare=
ly stop of their own accord.<BR><br /><hr />Color coding for safety: Window=
s Live Hotmail alerts you to suspicious email. <a href=3D'http://windowsliv=
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--_690230a9-6b12-4c22-adb0-927fff099ba3_--
------------------------------
Date: Sun, 30 Nov 2008 11:42:00 -0800
From: "Paul E. Doniger" <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Re: past-perfect trolling
--0-1316727241-1228074120=:98632
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Great advice!=0A=A0=0APaul E. Doniger=0A=A0"If this were play'd upon a stag=
e now, I could condemn it as an improbable fiction" (_Twelfth Night_ 3.4.12=
7-128). =0A=0A=0A=0A=0A________________________________=0AFrom: Richard Wal=
lis <[log in to unmask]>=0ATo: [log in to unmask]: Sunda=
y, November 30, 2008 2:38:41 PM=0ASubject: past-perfect trolling=0A=0A=0A=
=0A=0A________________________________=0A=0AAgain I'll=A0state one of the d=
efinitions of "trolling": =0A=0AFORCING A DISCUSSION TO GO AROUND IN CIRCLE=
S FOR ONE'S OWN AMUSEMENT AND THE IRRITATION OF OTHERS =0A=A0=0AOur wind-up=
troll is at it again. Every time you respond, you wind him up to keep the =
circle spinning.=0A=A0=0AI suggest ignoring the wind-up troll, because such=
Internet denizens rarely stop of their own accord.=0A=0A__________________=
______________=0AColor coding for safety: Windows Live Hotmail alerts you t=
o suspicious email. Sign up today. To join or leave this LISTSERV list, ple=
ase visit the list's web interface at: http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/=
ateg.html and select "Join or leave the list" =0AVisit ATEG's web site at h=
ttp://ateg.org/
To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web interface
at:
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--0-1316727241-1228074120=:98632
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<html><head><style type="text/css"><!-- DIV {margin:0px;}
--></style></head><body><div style="font-family:bookman old style, new york,
times, serif;font-size:14pt"><DIV></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=3>Great advice!</FONT></DIV>
<P><FONT size=3></FONT> </P>
<P><FONT size=3>Paul E. Doniger</P>
<DIV> </FONT></DIV><FONT size=2>"If this were play'd upon a stage now,
I could condemn it as an improbable fiction" (_Twelfth Night_
3.4.127-128).</FONT>
<DIV><BR></DIV>
<DIV style="FONT-SIZE: 14pt; FONT-FAMILY: bookman old style, new york,
times, serif"><BR>
<DIV style="FONT-SIZE: 12pt; FONT-FAMILY: times new roman, new york, times,
serif"><FONT face=Tahoma size=2>
<HR SIZE=1>
<B><SPAN style="FONT-WEIGHT: bold">From:</SPAN></B> Richard Wallis
<[log in to unmask]><BR><B><SPAN style="FONT-WEIGHT:
bold">To:</SPAN></B> [log in to unmask]<BR><B><SPAN
style="FONT-WEIGHT: bold">Sent:</SPAN></B> Sunday, November 30, 2008 2:38:41
PM<BR><B><SPAN style="FONT-WEIGHT: bold">Subject:</SPAN></B> past-perfect
trolling<BR></FONT><BR>
<STYLE>
.hmmessage P
{
margin:0px;padding:0px;}
body.hmmessage
{
font-size:10pt;font-family:Verdana;}
</STYLE>
<BR><BR><BR>
<HR id=stopSpelling>
<BR>Again I'll state one of the definitions of "trolling":
<BR><BR>FORCING A DISCUSSION TO GO AROUND IN CIRCLES FOR ONE'S OWN AMUSEMENT
AND THE IRRITATION OF OTHERS <BR> <BR>Our wind-up troll is at it again.
Every time you respond, you wind him up to keep the circle
spinning.<BR> <BR>I suggest ignoring the wind-up troll, because such
Internet denizens rarely stop of their own accord.<BR><BR>
<HR>
Color coding for safety: Windows Live Hotmail alerts you to suspicious
email. <A
href="http://windowslive.com/Explore/Hotmail?ocid=TXT_TAGLM_WL_hotmail_acq_s
afety_112008" target=_blank rel=nofollow>Sign up today.</A> To join or leave
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--0-1316727241-1228074120=:98632--
------------------------------
Date: Sun, 30 Nov 2008 17:15:56 -0800
From: Scott Woods <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Re: Correct?
--0-1037560375-1228094156=:84175
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
=A0
What would be the negative implications, pedagogically, analytically, or ot=
herwise, with 7th graders, of treating sentences like "We wanted him to go =
home" as containing a direct object and an object complement, rather than u=
sing the infinitive as the direct object in the same way we might analyze "=
We elected him president" ?=A0 Also, is it a faulty analysis to think of ab=
solutes as containing an implied "be," the lack of which makes them a claus=
e, and the insertion of which is a test for being an absolute?=A0 That is, =
are absolutes basically clauses with the "be" dropped?
=A0
Scott Woods
--- On Sun, 11/30/08, Atchley, Clinton <[log in to unmask]> wrote:
From: Atchley, Clinton <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Re: Correct?
To: [log in to unmask]
Date: Sunday, November 30, 2008, 11:37 AM
In traditional grammar you find a similar use of objective case pronouns
when they function as subjects of infinitives in a sentence like "Bill
wanted him to go home." Here the infinitive "to go" functions
as the
direct object since what Bill wanted was the action of going to take
place. Bill does not want "him"; "him" is the agent of the
action of
the infinitive. It's quite common actually. "We consider him to be
completely honest." "The teacher let us decorate the room."=20
"We left
after seeing him break the record."
Clinton Atchley, Ph.D.
Associate Professor of English
Box 7652
1100 Henderson Street
Henderson State University
Arkadelphia, AR 71999
Phone: 870.230.5276
Email: [log in to unmask]
Web: http://www.hsu.edu/atchlec=20
-----Original Message-----
From: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar
[mailto:[log in to unmask]] On Behalf Of STAHLKE, HERBERT F
Sent: Sunday, November 30, 2008 11:45 AM
To: [log in to unmask]
Subject: Re: Correct?
I agree that they are nominative absolutes, but I'll follow up on my
earlier comment on changes in the function of objective pronouns. This
is another instance of what were traditionally object pronouns taking on
pragmatic roles and marking focus. Like Craig, I would probably use the
subjective forms, but these are among the more acceptable uses of object
pronouns in non-object position.
Herb
Herbert F. W. Stahlke, Ph.D.
Emeritus Professor of English
Ball State University
Muncie, IN 47306
[log in to unmask]
________________________________________
From: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar
[[log in to unmask]] On Behalf Of John Crow [[log in to unmask]]
Sent: November 30, 2008 9:36 AM
To: [log in to unmask]
Subject: Re: Correct?
You are dead on as usual. I see now that calling them absolutes is a
much more logical analysis. The possibly understood "with" is great!
Thanks, Craig.
John
On Sun, Nov 30, 2008 at 9:23 AM, Craig Hancock
<[log in to unmask]<mailto:[log in to unmask]>> wrote:
John,
I would classify them as "absolutes", which I would define as
subject
bearing participle clauses. (Traditional grammar calls them phrases.)
My own preference would be for "he" and "I" in the
subject roles, but
these are also commonly introduced by "with", which could be thought
of
as understood here. "I slipped my backpack off, and we sat down at one
of the metal tables overlooking the pool, with him sipping his Mountain
Dew and me groping for pen and paper." Maybe the writer drafted it with
"with" and then took it out, leaving the objective pronouns.
Hope that helps.
Craig
>
What are the structures appended to the end of the main clause below?
> They
> feel like participles, but they have pseudo-subjects. Is it correct
to
> use
> the objective pronouns in these structures?
>
> *I slipped my backpack off, and we sat down at one of the metal tables
> overlooking the pool, him sipping his Mountain Dew and me groping for
a
> pen
> and paper.
>
> *I hope everyone had a great Thanksgiving!
>
> Thanks,
> John
>
> To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web
interface
> at:
> http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html
> and select "Join or leave the list"
>
> Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/
>
To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web
interface at:
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=0A=0A=0A
To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web interface
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--0-1037560375-1228094156=:84175
Content-Type: text/html; charset=us-ascii
<table cellspacing="0" cellpadding="0" border="0" ><tr><td valign="top"
style="font: inherit;"><DIV> </DIV>
<DIV>What would be the negative implications, pedagogically, analytically,
or otherwise, with 7th graders, of treating sentences like "We wanted him to
go home" as containing a direct object and an object complement, rather than
using the infinitive as the direct object in the same way we might analyze
"We elected him president" ? Also, is it a faulty analysis to think of
absolutes as containing an implied "be," the lack of which makes them a
clause, and the insertion of which is a test for being an absolute?
That is, are absolutes basically clauses with the "be" dropped?</DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV>Scott Woods</DIV>
<DIV><BR>--- On <B>Sun, 11/30/08, Atchley, Clinton
<I><[log in to unmask]></I></B> wrote:<BR></DIV>
<BLOCKQUOTE style="PADDING-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; BORDER-LEFT:
rgb(16,16,255) 2px solid">From: Atchley, Clinton
<[log in to unmask]><BR>Subject: Re: Correct?<BR>To:
[log in to unmask]<BR>Date: Sunday, November 30, 2008, 11:37
AM<BR><BR><PRE>In traditional grammar you find a similar use of objective
case pronouns
when they function as subjects of infinitives in a sentence like "Bill
wanted him to go home." Here the infinitive "to go" functions
as the
direct object since what Bill wanted was the action of going to take
place. Bill does not want "him"; "him" is the agent of the
action of
the infinitive. It's quite common actually. "We consider him to be
completely honest." "The teacher let us decorate the room."
"We left
after seeing him break the record."
Clinton Atchley, Ph.D.
Associate Professor of English
Box 7652
1100 Henderson Street
Henderson State University
Arkadelphia, AR 71999
Phone: 870.230.5276
Email: [log in to unmask]
Web: http://www.hsu.edu/atchlec
-----Original Message-----
From: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar
[mailto:[log in to unmask]] On Behalf Of STAHLKE, HERBERT F
Sent: Sunday, November 30, 2008 11:45 AM
To: [log in to unmask]
Subject: Re: Correct?
I agree that they are nominative absolutes, but I'll follow up on my
earlier comment on changes in the function of objective pronouns. This
is another instance of what were traditionally object pronouns taking on
pragmatic roles and marking focus. Like Craig, I would probably use the
subjective forms, but these are among the more acceptable uses of object
pronouns in non-object position.
Herb
Herbert F. W. Stahlke, Ph.D.
Emeritus Professor of English
Ball State University
Muncie, IN 47306
[log in to unmask]
________________________________________
From: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar
[[log in to unmask]] On Behalf Of John Crow [[log in to unmask]]
Sent: November 30, 2008 9:36 AM
To: [log in to unmask]
Subject: Re: Correct?
You are dead on as usual. I see now that calling them absolutes is a
much more logical analysis. The possibly understood "with" is great!
Thanks, Craig.
John
On Sun, Nov 30, 2008 at 9:23 AM, Craig Hancock
<[log in to unmask]<mailto:[log in to unmask]>> wrote:
John,
I would classify them as "absolutes", which I would define as
subject
bearing participle clauses. (Traditional grammar calls them phrases.)
My own preference would be for "he" and "I" in the
subject roles, but
these are also commonly introduced by "with", which could be thought
of
as understood here. "I slipped my backpack off, and we sat down at one
of the metal tables overlooking the pool, with him sipping his Mountain
Dew and me groping for pen and paper." Maybe the writer drafted it with
"with" and then took it out, leaving the objective pronouns.
Hope that helps.
Craig
>
What are the structures appended to the end of the main clause below?
> They
> feel like participles, but they have pseudo-subjects. Is it correct
to
> use
> the objective pronouns in these structures?
>
> *I slipped my backpack off, and we sat down at one of the metal tables
> overlooking the pool, him sipping his Mountain Dew and me groping for
a
> pen
> and paper.
>
> *I hope everyone had a great Thanksgiving!
>
> Thanks,
> John
>
> To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web
interface
> at:
> http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html
> and select "Join or leave the list"
>
> Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/
>
To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web
interface at:
http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html
and select "Join or leave the list"
Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/
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"Join or leave the list"
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</PRE></BLOCKQUOTE></td></tr></table><br>
To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web interface
at:
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<p>
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--0-1037560375-1228094156=:84175--
------------------------------
Date: Sun, 30 Nov 2008 19:08:06 -0600
From: Geoffrey Layton <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Re: past-perfect trolling
--_d727ea66-a7bf-40a1-bdf2-ba584ac04d01_
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="Windows-1252"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
And let the congregation say=2C "Amen!"Geoff Layton
Date: Sun=2C 30 Nov 2008 11:42:00 -0800From: [log in to unmask]: Re: =
past-perfect trollingTo: [log in to unmask]
Great advice!
=20
Paul E. Doniger
"If this were play'd upon a stage now=2C I could condemn it as an improbab=
le fiction" (_Twelfth Night_ 3.4.127-128).=20
From: Richard Wallis <[log in to unmask]>To: [log in to unmask]
Sent: Sunday=2C November 30=2C 2008 2:38:41 PMSubject: past-perfect trollin=
g
Again I'll state one of the definitions of "trolling": FORCING A DISCUSSION=
TO GO AROUND IN CIRCLES FOR ONE'S OWN AMUSEMENT AND THE IRRITATION OF OTHE=
RS Our wind-up troll is at it again. Every time you respond=2C you wind hi=
m up to keep the circle spinning. I suggest ignoring the wind-up troll=2C b=
ecause such Internet denizens rarely stop of their own accord.
Color coding for safety: Windows Live Hotmail alerts you to suspicious emai=
l. Sign up today. To join or leave this LISTSERV list=2C please visit the l=
ist's web interface at: http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html and s=
elect "Join or leave the list"=20
Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/To join or leave this LISTSERV lis=
t=2C please visit the list's web interface at: http://listserv.muohio.edu/a=
rchives/ateg.html and select "Join or leave the list"=20
Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/
_________________________________________________________________
Proud to be a PC? Show the world. Download the =93I=92m a PC=94 Messenger t=
hemepack now.
hthttp://clk.atdmt.com/MRT/go/119642558/direct/01/=
To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web interface
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--_d727ea66-a7bf-40a1-bdf2-ba584ac04d01_
Content-Type: text/html; charset="Windows-1252"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
<html>
<head>
<style>
.hmmessage P
{
margin:0px=3B
padding:0px
}
body.hmmessage
{
font-size: 10pt=3B
font-family:Verdana
}
</style>
</head>
<body class=3D'hmmessage'>
And let the congregation say=2C "Amen!"<BR><BR>Geoff Layton<BR><BR><BR><BR>
<HR id=3DstopSpelling>
Date: Sun=2C 30 Nov 2008 11:42:00 -0800<BR>From: [log in to unmask]<BR>Subje=
ct: Re: past-perfect trolling<BR>To: [log in to unmask]<BR><BR>
<STYLE>
.ExternalClass DIV
{=3B}
</STYLE>
<DIV style=3D"FONT-SIZE: 14pt=3B FONT-FAMILY: bookman old style=2C new york=
=2C times=2C serif">
<DIV></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=3D3>Great advice!</FONT></DIV>
<FONT size=3D3></FONT> =3B<BR>
<FONT size=3D3>Paul E. Doniger<BR>
<DIV> =3B</FONT></DIV><FONT size=3D2>"If this were play'd upon a stage =
now=2C I could condemn it as an improbable fiction" (_Twelfth Night_ 3.4.12=
7-128).</FONT>=20
<DIV><BR></DIV>
<DIV style=3D"FONT-SIZE: 14pt=3B FONT-FAMILY: bookman old style=2C new york=
=2C times=2C serif"><BR>
<DIV style=3D"FONT-SIZE: 12pt=3B FONT-FAMILY: times new roman=2C new york=
=2C times=2C serif"><FONT face=3DTahoma size=3D2>
<HR SIZE=3D1>
<B><SPAN style=3D"FONT-WEIGHT: bold">From:</SPAN></B> Richard Wallis <=3B=
[log in to unmask]>=3B<BR><B><SPAN style=3D"FONT-WEIGHT: bold">To:<=
/SPAN></B> [log in to unmask]<BR><B><SPAN style=3D"FONT-WEIGHT: bold"=
>Sent:</SPAN></B> Sunday=2C November 30=2C 2008 2:38:41 PM<BR><B><SPAN styl=
e=3D"FONT-WEIGHT: bold">Subject:</SPAN></B> past-perfect trolling<BR></FONT=
><BR>
<STYLE>
.ExternalClass .EC_hmmessage P
{padding:0px=3B}
.ExternalClass body.EC_hmmessage
{font-size:10pt=3Bfont-family:Verdana=3B}
</STYLE>
<BR><BR><BR>
<HR id=3DEC_stopSpelling>
<BR>Again I'll =3Bstate one of the definitions of "trolling": <BR><BR>F=
ORCING A DISCUSSION TO GO AROUND IN CIRCLES FOR ONE'S OWN AMUSEMENT AND THE=
IRRITATION OF OTHERS <BR> =3B<BR>Our wind-up troll is at it again. Eve=
ry time you respond=2C you wind him up to keep the circle spinning.<BR>&nbs=
p=3B<BR>I suggest ignoring the wind-up troll=2C because such Internet deniz=
ens rarely stop of their own accord.<BR><BR>
<HR>
Color coding for safety: Windows Live Hotmail alerts you to suspicious emai=
l. <A href=3D"http://windowslive.com/Explore/Hotmail?ocid=3DTXT_TAGLM_WL_ho=
tmail_acq_safety_112008" rel=3Dnofollow>Sign up today.</A> To join or leave=
this LISTSERV list=2C please visit the list's web interface at: http://lis=
tserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html and select "Join or leave the list"=20
Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/<BR></DIV></DIV></DIV>To join or l=
eave this LISTSERV list=2C please visit the list's web interface at: http:/=
/listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html and select "Join or leave the list"=
=20
Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/<BR><br /><hr />Proud to be a PC? =
Show the world. Download the =93I=92m a PC=94 Messenger themepack now. <a h=
ref=3D'http://clk.atdmt.com/MRT/go/119642558/direct/01/' target=3D'_new'>Do=
wnload now.</a></body>
</html>=
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--_d727ea66-a7bf-40a1-bdf2-ba584ac04d01_--
------------------------------
Date: Sun, 30 Nov 2008 20:39:03 -0500
From: Don Stewart <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Re: Correct?
------=_Part_55024_4311093.1228095543404
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Content-Disposition: inline
John and Craig,
In his essay "In Defense of the Absolute," Francis Christensen mentions that
"with" can begin an absolute phrase. He calls it an "empty" word, and
elsewhere calls it a "marker" of the absolute. It can be deleted, and you
still have the absolute phrase. It is especially useful to alert the reader
when it begins the sentence.
With the newcomers hopeless and forlorn, and the old team worn out by
twenty-five hundred miles of continuous trail, the outlook was anything but
bright. [Jack London]
Christensen also gives credit to Curme
for recognizing that in popular speech, especially in Irish, the
construction is sometimes introduced by "and" ("Did you not hear his
reverence, and he speaking to you now?" [Synge]) and that in this
construction, as elsewhere in popular speech, the nominative is
often replaced by the accusative ("It will be a very good match for
me, m'm, me being an orphan girl" [Wells]).
--
Don Stewart
Write for College
______________________
Keeper of the memory and method
of Dr. Francis Christensen
On Sun, Nov 30, 2008 at 1:37 PM, Atchley, Clinton <[log in to unmask]> wrote:
> In traditional grammar you find a similar use of objective case pronouns
> when they function as subjects of infinitives in a sentence like "Bill
> wanted him to go home." Here the infinitive "to go" functions as the
> direct object since what Bill wanted was the action of going to take
> place. Bill does not want "him"; "him" is the agent of the action of
> the infinitive. It's quite common actually. "We consider him to be
> completely honest." "The teacher let us decorate the room." "We left
> after seeing him break the record."
>
> Clinton Atchley, Ph.D.
> Associate Professor of English
> Box 7652
> 1100 Henderson Street
> Henderson State University
> Arkadelphia, AR 71999
> Phone: 870.230.5276
> Email: [log in to unmask]
> Web: http://www.hsu.edu/atchlec
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar
> [mailto:[log in to unmask]] On Behalf Of STAHLKE, HERBERT F
> Sent: Sunday, November 30, 2008 11:45 AM
> To: [log in to unmask]
> Subject: Re: Correct?
>
> I agree that they are nominative absolutes, but I'll follow up on my
> earlier comment on changes in the function of objective pronouns. This
> is another instance of what were traditionally object pronouns taking on
> pragmatic roles and marking focus. Like Craig, I would probably use the
> subjective forms, but these are among the more acceptable uses of object
> pronouns in non-object position.
>
> Herb
>
> Herbert F. W. Stahlke, Ph.D.
> Emeritus Professor of English
> Ball State University
> Muncie, IN 47306
> [log in to unmask]
> ________________________________________
> From: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar
> [[log in to unmask]] On Behalf Of John Crow [[log in to unmask]]
> Sent: November 30, 2008 9:36 AM
> To: [log in to unmask]
> Subject: Re: Correct?
>
> You are dead on as usual. I see now that calling them absolutes is a
> much more logical analysis. The possibly understood "with" is great!
>
> Thanks, Craig.
> John
>
> On Sun, Nov 30, 2008 at 9:23 AM, Craig Hancock
> <[log in to unmask]<mailto:[log in to unmask]>> wrote:
> John,
> I would classify them as "absolutes", which I would define as subject
> bearing participle clauses. (Traditional grammar calls them phrases.)
> My own preference would be for "he" and "I" in the subject roles, but
> these are also commonly introduced by "with", which could be thought of
> as understood here. "I slipped my backpack off, and we sat down at one
> of the metal tables overlooking the pool, with him sipping his Mountain
> Dew and me groping for pen and paper." Maybe the writer drafted it with
> "with" and then took it out, leaving the objective pronouns.
> Hope that helps.
>
> Craig
> >
>
>
> What are the structures appended to the end of the main clause below?
> > They
> > feel like participles, but they have pseudo-subjects. Is it correct
> to
> > use
> > the objective pronouns in these structures?
> >
> > *I slipped my backpack off, and we sat down at one of the metal tables
> > overlooking the pool, him sipping his Mountain Dew and me groping for
> a
> > pen
> > and paper.
> >
> > *I hope everyone had a great Thanksgiving!
> >
> > Thanks,
> > John
> >
> > To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web
> interface
> > at:
> > http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html
> > and select "Join or leave the list"
> >
> > Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/
> >
>
> To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web
> interface at:
> http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html
> and select "Join or leave the list"
>
> Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/
>
> To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web
> interface at: http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html and select
> "Join or leave the list"
>
> Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/
>
> To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web
> interface at:
> http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html
> and select "Join or leave the list"
>
> Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/
>
> To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web interface
> at:
> http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html
> and select "Join or leave the list"
>
> Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/
>
--
Don Stewart
Write for College
______________________
Keeper of the memory and method
of Dr. Francis Christensen
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------=_Part_55024_4311093.1228095543404
Content-Type: text/html; charset=ISO-8859-1
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John and Craig,<br><br>In his essay "In Defense of the Absolute,"
Francis Christensen mentions that "with" can begin an absolute
phrase.
He calls it an "empty" word, and elsewhere calls it a
"marker" of the
absolute. It can be deleted, and you still have the absolute phrase. It is
especially useful to alert the reader when it begins the sentence.
<br><br>With the newcomers hopeless and forlorn, and the old team worn out
by twenty-five hundred miles of continuous trail, the outlook was anything
but bright. [Jack London]<br>
<br>
<br>
Christensen also gives credit to Curme<br>for recognizing that in popular
speech, especially in Irish, the<br>
construction is sometimes introduced by "and" ("Did you not hear
his<br>
reverence, and he speaking to you now?" [Synge]) and that in this<br>
construction, as elsewhere in popular speech, the nominative is<br>
often replaced by the accusative ("It will be a very good match for<br>me,
m'm, me being an orphan girl" [Wells]).<br><br>
-- <br>
Don Stewart<br>
Write for College<br>
______________________ <br>
Keeper of the memory and method <br>
of Dr. Francis Christensen<br><br><div class="gmail_quote">On Sun, Nov 30,
2008 at 1:37 PM, Atchley, Clinton <span dir="ltr"><<a
href="mailto:[log in to unmask]">[log in to unmask]</a>></span>
wrote:<br><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="border-left: 1px solid
rgb(204, 204, 204); margin: 0pt 0pt 0pt 0.8ex; padding-left: 1ex;">
In traditional grammar you find a similar use of objective case pronouns<br>
when they function as subjects of infinitives in a sentence like
"Bill<br>
wanted him to go home." Here the infinitive "to go"
functions as the<br>
direct object since what Bill wanted was the action of going to take<br>
place. Bill does not want "him"; "him" is the
agent of the action of<br>
the infinitive. It's quite common actually. "We
consider him to be<br>
completely honest." "The teacher let us decorate the
room." "We left<br>
after seeing him break the record."<br>
<br>
Clinton Atchley, Ph.D.<br>
Associate Professor of English<br>
Box 7652<br>
1100 Henderson Street<br>
Henderson State University<br>
Arkadelphia, AR 71999<br>
Phone: 870.230.5276<br>
Email: <a href="mailto:[log in to unmask]">[log in to unmask]</a><br>
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-----Original Message-----<br>
From: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar<br>
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Date: Sun, 30 Nov 2008 21:46:02 -0500
From: "STAHLKE, HERBERT F" <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Re: Correct?
If you confine yourself, as most texts as well as the Quirk et al. grammar =
do, then you'll probably find something like an SVOO pattern and an SVOC pa=
ttern. The former is for ditransitives. The latter covers complex transit=
ives, or object complement constructions. Because these models of grammar =
do not involve derivation, object + infinitive constructions will fall into=
this pattern as well. So, yes, "we wanted him to go home" and "we elected=
him president" have the same pattern. As to the treatment of nominative a=
bsolutes as containing an implied "be," you're right.
Herb
Herbert F. W. Stahlke, Ph.D.
Emeritus Professor of English
Ball State University
Muncie, IN 47306
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________________________________________
From: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar [[log in to unmask]
U] On Behalf Of Scott Woods [[log in to unmask]]
Sent: November 30, 2008 8:15 PM
To: [log in to unmask]
Subject: Re: Correct?
What would be the negative implications, pedagogically, analytically, or ot=
herwise, with 7th graders, of treating sentences like "We wanted him to go =
home" as containing a direct object and an object complement, rather than u=
sing the infinitive as the direct object in the same way we might analyze "=
We elected him president" ? Also, is it a faulty analysis to think of abso=
lutes as containing an implied "be," the lack of which makes them a clause,=
and the insertion of which is a test for being an absolute? That is, are =
absolutes basically clauses with the "be" dropped?
Scott Woods
--- On Sun, 11/30/08, Atchley, Clinton <[log in to unmask]> wrote:
From: Atchley, Clinton <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Re: Correct?
To: [log in to unmask]
Date: Sunday, November 30, 2008, 11:37 AM
In traditional grammar you find a similar use of objective case pronouns
when they function as subjects of infinitives in a sentence like "Bill
wanted him to go home." Here the infinitive "to go" functions
as the
direct object since what Bill wanted was the action of going to take
place. Bill does not want "him"; "him" is the agent of the
action of
the infinitive. It's quite common actually. "We consider him to be
completely honest." "The teacher let us decorate the room."
"We left
after seeing him break the record."
Clinton Atchley, Ph.D.
Associate Professor of English
Box 7652
1100 Henderson Street
Henderson State University
Arkadelphia, AR 71999
Phone: 870.230.5276
Email: [log in to unmask]
Web: http://www.hsu.edu/atchlec
-----Original Message-----
From: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar
[mailto:[log in to unmask]] On Behalf Of STAHLKE, HERBERT F
Sent: Sunday, November 30, 2008 11:45 AM
To: [log in to unmask]
Subject: Re: Correct?
I agree that they are nominative absolutes, but I'll follow up on my
earlier comment on changes in the function of objective pronouns. This
is another instance of what were traditionally object pronouns taking on
pragmatic roles and marking focus. Like Craig, I would probably use the
subjective forms, but these are among the more acceptable uses of object
pronouns in non-object position.
Herb
Herbert F. W. Stahlke, Ph.D.
Emeritus Professor of English
Ball State University
Muncie, IN 47306
[log in to unmask]
________________________________________
From: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar
[[log in to unmask]] On Behalf Of John Crow [[log in to unmask]]
Sent: November 30, 2008 9:36 AM
To: [log in to unmask]
Subject: Re: Correct?
You are dead on as usual. I see now that calling them absolutes is a
much more logical analysis. The possibly understood "with" is great!
Thanks, Craig.
John
On Sun, Nov 30, 2008 at 9:23 AM, Craig Hancock
<[log in to unmask]<mailto:[log in to unmask]>> wrote:
John,
I would classify them as "absolutes", which I would define as
subject
bearing participle clauses. (Traditional grammar calls them phrases.)
My own preference would be for "he" and "I" in the
subject roles, but
these are also commonly introduced by "with", which could be thought
of
as understood here. "I slipped my backpack off, and we sat down at one
of the metal tables overlooking the pool, with him sipping his Mountain
Dew and me groping for pen and paper." Maybe the writer drafted it with
"with" and then took it out, leaving the objective pronouns.
Hope that helps.
Craig
>
What are the structures appended to the end of the main clause below?
> They
> feel like participles, but they have pseudo-subjects. Is it correct
to
> use
> the objective pronouns in these structures?
>
> *I slipped my backpack off, and we sat down at one of the metal tables
> overlooking the pool, him sipping his Mountain Dew and me groping for
a
> pen
> and paper.
>
> *I hope everyone had a great Thanksgiving!
>
> Thanks,
> John
>
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>
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End of ATEG Digest - 29 Nov 2008 to 30 Nov 2008 (#2008-250)
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