On Wed, 24 Mar 1999, Bob Yates wrote:

> Johanna Rubba wrote:
>
> > This makes it sound like the only people we are teaching to when we teach
> > grammar is speakers of nonstandard dialects. I don't think Bob intends
> > this to be inferred.
>
> That is a most ungenerous reading of what I wrote.

Hence the 'I don't think' clause.

>  I am assuming that
> we teach grammar to all native speakers of English to help them make
> conscious decisions about what is appropriate, defining appropriate as
> being standard or textually felicitous.

Yeah! Right on!

>
> > And I do see a connection to text structure. I've claimed before that
> > choices about sentence structure are governed by the need to manage
> > information flow in texts.
>
> This statement is right.  However, the central question is whether
> knowledge of
> argument structure is necessary to resolve issues of information flow in
> a text.

Yes. I'm posing this question. People who have a lot more experience than
I in teaching composition would have a feel for an answer to this
question.

> Excuse me, but the ONLY way to answer that question is to ask who the
> students are.  I can think of any number grammatical structures I have
> to be prepared to teach to non-native speakers that I never have to
> teach to native speakers.  For example, native speakers never have to be
> taught about how the article system in English works.  The entire
> distinction of count/non-count nouns is never something native speakers
> have to be taught. etc.  These distinctions have important implications
> for certain grammatical decisions that are influenced by information
> flow.   I don't know of any study which reveals that native speakers
> have any difficult with these structures.

One area in which the count/mass distinction might be needed is if we want
to try to maintain (in formal writing, at least) the distinction between
'fewer' and 'less' and 'number' and 'amount', which is being lost.
'Less' and 'amount' are winning out over 'fewer' and 'number' in
front of plural count nouns. So I'm _very_ frequently seeing and hearing
expressions like 'a large amount of students' and 'less students', where I
would naturally say 'a large number of students' and 'fewer students'.

As a linguist, I recognize the futility of trying to maintain distinctions
that the general population seems determined to lose; so I guess the
relevant question is: How much does the collapse of this distinction
bother people who will be judging our graduates? Here's an item to include
on all the Hairston replications that people are doing.

A general question for ATEG subscribers and for the SSS committee is being
raised here: should K-12 grammar instruction be more-narrowly focused on
'things native speakers have trouble with in learning the formal
standard variety of English' or should it be broader, 'to give speakers of
English a relatively thorough understanding of how English works'?

The more-narrow focus may be a practical, more-attainable aim in the short
term. What do other listers think of the value of the broader scope? One
value I see in it is that it would give students a basis for considering
and forming opinions on such issues as language legislation and Ebonics in
the schools.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Johanna Rubba   Assistant Professor, Linguistics              ~
English Department, California Polytechnic State University   ~
San Luis Obispo, CA 93407                                     ~
Tel. (805)-756-2184     Fax: (805)-756-6374                   ~
E-mail: [log in to unmask]                           ~
Office hours Winter 1999: Mon/Wed 10:10-11am Thurs 2:10-3pm   ~
Home page: http://www.calpoly.edu/~jrubba                     ~
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