larry,
Sorry about my vocabulary. The Latin term "irrealis" means "in an unreal sense." It has been used as a grammatical term for forms in certain languages that correspond to a grammatical mode with such a meaning. I have used it to refer to the semantics, in an attempt to isolate the forms that seem to be expressing such a mode in English. (I don't have a citation, but can get one if you really need it.)
The idea is that the past tense form of modals is no longer (normally) used to refer to past time. This form often corresponds to an "irrealis." In order to refer to past time with a modal its verb is put in the perfect aspect (HAVE+past participle form).
Bruce
>>> [log in to unmask] 04/13/01 09:09AM >>>
Bruce,
I don't recall a case being made that 'would have' is similar to the modals you describe, but it makes sense to me.
Another question. I should know this, but you've mentioned "irrealis" twice. I'm not familiar with this term. What does it mean?
larry
>>> Bruce Despain <[log in to unmask]> - 4/13/01 9:29 AM >>>
Larry,
You have interpreted my answer correctly. The hypothetical situation expressed (without the conditional), the "irrealis" does not seem to require the presupposition that the car in fact failed.
According to the diagnostic tests, your car would have lasted for what amount of time?
I'm wondering if this is related to the so-called subjective use of the modals, where the person making the statement is suggesting a possible truth based on evidence:
That must be George at the door (I'm expecting him).
That would be George at the door. [British?]
If this last sentence is put in past time (& indirect discourse) we have:
I thought that it would have been George at the door (but it wasn't).
Bruce
>>> [log in to unmask] 04/12/01 11:18AM >>>
Bruce,
I agree with much of what you're saying. If I understand correctly, the 'would have' is adding an element of the 'unreal'--signalling the event did not take place. Normally, this sort of 'would + have + past participle' is followed by a conditional (e.g., an "if" clause), as are many instances of using just the conditional 'would' without the perfect tense.
This deals with a legal problem I'm consulting on, BTW. The 'would have' structure does not follow the textbook examples of conditional auxilliary verbs (because it lacks the "if" clause). But it seems to me also, if I'm not presuming too much about your opinion, that the 'would have' is setting forth a hypothetical situation in the past, a situation asking someone to speculate about what was, back then, the future.
larry
>>> Bruce Despain <[log in to unmask]> - 4/12/01 10:48 AM >>>
Here is one person's analysis of your sentence. You have an example of a "future perfect tense" which as an "irrealis" has been back-shifted. The present tense on "will" switches to a past tense "would" to indicate that the car in fact failed to last the amount of time predicted. Note: "in three months the car will have lasted three months more." "three months ago the car would have lasted three months more. (but it didn't)"
In case the car survived we would probably use a simple tense: "three months ago the tests predicted that the car would last three months more (and it did)." This past tense is in a subordinate clause and is back-shifted from "will last" (often called the "future tense") to agree with the past tense of the main verb "predicted." This is why it is often misleading to call the bare infinitive with "shall/will" a future "tense."
Bruce
>>> [log in to unmask] 04/11/01 01:19PM >>>
This is only somewhat related to the thread on verb tense. I was asked this morning and wanted to see what others think. How would you describe the type of verb phrase here ('would have' in particular)?
According to the diagnostic tests, your car would have lasted for what amount of time?
-larry
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