Herb,
I think I've asked you this before, but it was a while back and I can't
remember the answer: what's the logic for *that* not being a relative
pronoun when it introduces a relative clause? There *is* a "missing
element" in the relative clause (I can't say, "Hand me the umbrella that
it's standing next to the door"), and I can't think of any empirical way
to distinguish between "replace element with fronted pronoun" and
"delete element then add initial subordinator" -- in both cases, you
have something at the beginning of the clause and a missing something
somewhere else.
--- Bill Spruiell
-----Original Message-----
From: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar
[mailto:[log in to unmask]] On Behalf Of STAHLKE, HERBERT F
Sent: Sunday, February 17, 2008 11:47 PM
To: [log in to unmask]
Subject: Re: The use of "that" ; long rant
Beth and Scott,
English didn't originally have wh-relatives. Relative clauses were
formed either with no conjunction or with a form of the definite article
as in German. It was the definite article variant that ultimately
developed into the Modern English that-relative, although the process
was more complex than that statement suggests. Wh-relatives began to
develop in the tenth century under the influence of Latin grammar, where
relative pronouns and question words all begin with qu- and are
virtually identical, except for the nominative singular forms. (That
qu-, by the way, is cognate to the English wh-, but that's another
matter.) How this would ultimately have developed, we'll never know,
because the Normans came along in 1066 and pretty much put a halt to the
West Saxon writing tradition, and English was pretty much not written
for the next couple of centuries.
When writing in English resumed on a significant scale in the 13th c.,
all the Old English traditions had been lost, but the writers were once
again trained in Latin and influenced by Latin grammar, and, once again,
they introduced question words as relative pronouns. Since writing was
a function of an educated elite, the use of wh-relatives passed down
through that elite. When we see non-elite writers come along, in the
14th and 15th cc., writing, their use of wh-words in relative clauses is
much less consistent because they hadn't had the training. By the early
18th c. wh-relatives are such an established feature of educated written
English that we find Addison and Steele in The Spectator complaining
about the new and uncultured use of "that" in relatives replacing the
"old and honored" wh-words, getting the history all wrong but telling us
a good bit about the culture. Wh-relatives continue to be a feature of
educated English. If one does not grow up in an educated household or
gain a solid grasp of formal standard written English in school, one
does not master wh-relatives even today. If you look at the writing of
students from a less educated tradition, one thing you'll find is
hypercorrection in the use of wh-words, often using a wh-word where it
doesn't at all belong, as in a sentence like
We were going to have a picnic on Saturday, which it rained.
The "which" replaces "but" as a hypercorrection.
This history has fed the myth that wh-relatives are somehow more correct
than that-relatives. The choice between the two is, as usual, rather
subtler than that, and both are correct. One bit of widely taught and
believed but bad grammatical analysis that comes out of this is the
claim that you can't use "that" in a relative clause to refer to humans.
You have to use who/whose/whom because "that" refers only to inanimates
and non-humans. However, since relative "that" is not a pronoun at all
but a subordinating conjunction it does not have reference, any more
than the coordinator "and" does. So saying
The man that met me at the airport drove me to the hotel.
does not violate a rule of grammar. If one prefers "who" to "that" in
more formal discourse, that's a matter of taste, not grammar.
Herb
-----Original Message-----
From: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar
[mailto:[log in to unmask]] On Behalf Of Beth Young
Sent: 2008-02-17 23:12
To: [log in to unmask]
Subject: Re: The use of "that" ; long rant
Hi all,
At the risk of showing my ignorance (I share the feelings of Nancy, aka
"The Tuten") . . . My students frequently ask about the that/which
rule, because they see it so often in their grammar checkers, and of
course the software warning is of little use to writers who are unclear
about what a clause is, much less a restrictive vs nonrestrictive
clause. Of course, I explain the rule when students ask, and I follow
the rule when I can (because so many in my audience know the rule), but
I suspect that this particular rule gained currency because it was easy
to program into grammar checkers.
When I was a neurotic undergraduate way back when, I asked several
professors for guidelines about when to use that or which, and was told
"If you're using too much of one, switch to the other" and "Read your
work aloud and if it sounds awkward, change it." No one knew of a
specific rule, and I couldn't find any rule in the handbook we used.
When I was in grad school, the that/which rule was cited by one
professor as an example of a really abstruse "rule" that only silly
pedants would know or care about. He told us that the rule was invented
by Fowler. I looked up Fowler's 1908 _The King's English_ (which is
now available online http://www.bartleby.com/116/205.html )
Fowler says of the rule:
<i>The reader will find that our rules are quite as often violated as
observed; and may perhaps conclude that if the vital difference between
a defining and a non-defining clause were consistently marked, wherever
it is possible, by a discriminating use of 'that' and 'which', false
coordination and other mishandlings of the relatives would be less
common than they are. </i>
In other words, we should follow this rule because Fowler thinks it
would be a good idea, even though no one has actually apparently
suggested or followed this particular rule before. Or at least, Fowler
doesn't cite any prior rule.
Somewhat later, I ran across a great reference book by J. Sherwin,
_Deciding Usage_ (now out of print) that surveys various reference books
and handbooks and usage guides on usage issues. Sherwin says that this
rule "is an oversimplification and is unsupported by history or current
practice." In addition to citing a fairly wide array of sources,
Sherwin provides a couple of famous quotes supporting this view:
From the Bible:
<i>Render . . . unto Caesar the things which are Caesar's, and unto God
the things that are God's.</i>
From Thoreau:
<i>If a man does not keep pace with his companions, perhaps it is
because he hears a different drummer. Let
him step to the music which he hears, however measured or far away.</i>
Sherwin also lists situations in which a restrictive "which" is
preferred to "that."
"Which" is the choice when a preposition precedes it:
<i>The cave of which I spoke faces north.</i> (Compare to <i>The cave
that I spoke of faces north.</i>)
"Which" is the choice when "that that" means "that which":
<i>Of that which I hear, believe very little.</i> (Compare to <i>Of that
that I hear, believe very
little.</i>)
If "that which" seems too bookish, we can also use "what":
<i>What is fair must be honest.</i> (Compare to <i>That which is fair
must be honest.</i>)
fwiw,
Beth Young
>>> "Scott" <[log in to unmask]> 2/17/2008 8:48 PM >>>
I am a firm believer in and teacher of the proper use of 'that' with
restrictive nominal phrases/clauses and 'which' with non-restrictive
nominal
phrases/clauses in formal writing and speech (Joos's _The Five Clocks_
is
always a mandatory supplemental along with _The Little Book_. In
informal
writing and speech 'that' may be omitted if it is not an aid for
clarity.
When I was the Dean of A&S at a university, I interviewed would-be
instructors and professors and always asked them to write a formal
two-page
description of their philosophy of teaching. I could not believe how
poorly
most of the applicants wrote--oddly enough, the history applicants were
the
most literate although the English grammar and composition ran second;
the
English and World Literature applicants were a very distant third. For
foreign languages, I interviewed the French and Spanish applicants in
their
languages; the Chairman of Foreign Languages interviewed the applicants
for
German; the applicants for Greek were interviewed in English if they had
a
master's or doctorate in Greek from a recognized university.
What I found most amusing was the attitude of "I've got my degree and I
can
write or lecture however I please." One PhD in French explained that he
had only been teaching French literature to upperclassmen and had had no
opportunity to practice speaking for several years. When asked why he
had not lectured in French, he explained that even the French majors at
his well-recognized university were unable to speak or write in French.
If we do not hold high the torch of learning, the generations who follow
will suffer, whether they know it or not.
Scott Catledge
-----Original Message-----
From: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar
[mailto:[log in to unmask]] On Behalf Of ATEG automatic digest
system
Sent: Sunday, February 17, 2008 12:01 AM
To: [log in to unmask]
Subject: ATEG Digest - 15 Feb 2008 to 16 Feb 2008 (#2008-37)
Date: Sat, 16 Feb 2008 06:38:50 -0800
From: Carol Morrison <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: The use of "that"
--0-514024270-1203172730=:4665
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit
As I am reading student essays today, I'm wondering if the use of
"that,"
which many of the students tend to omit, is necessary in certain
circumstances and what function it serves. For instance:
1) I think that we should go to the grocery store today rather than
Sunday.
vs.
2) I think we should go to the grocery store today rather than Sunday.
or, a 3rd person example, since the above are more representative of
speech than writing:
3) Jean thinks that Genuardi's is a better supermarket than Giant.
vs.
4) Jean thinks Genuardi's is a better supermarket than Giant.
My feeling is that "that" should be in the sentence. Does it function
as a
complementizer in the above sentences? (I tend to get confused with
"that"
clauses).
Thank you!
Carol Morrison
---------------------------------
Never miss a thing. Make Yahoo your homepage.
To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web
interface
at:
http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html
and select "Join or leave the list"
Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/
--0-514024270-1203172730=:4665
Content-Type: text/html; charset=iso-8859-1
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit
<div>As I am reading student essays today, I'm wondering if the use
of
"that," which many of the students tend to omit, is
necessary
in certain circumstances and what function it serves. For
instance:</div>
<div> </div> <div>1) I think <STRONG>that</STRONG> we should go to
the
grocery store today rather than Sunday.</div> <div> </div>
<div>vs.</div> <div> </div> <div>2) I think we should go to the
grocery store today rather than Sunday.</div> <div> </div>
<div>or, a
3rd person example, since the above are more representative of speech
than
writing:</div> <div> </div> <div>3) Jean thinks
<STRONG>that</STRONG>
Genuardi's is a better supermarket than Giant.</div> <div> </div>
<div>vs.</div> <div> </div> <div>4) Jean thinks Genuardi's is a
better supermarket than Giant.</div> <div> </div>
<div> </div>
<div>My feeling is that "that" should be in the sentence. Does it
function
as a complementizer in
the above sentences? (I tend to get confused with "that"
clauses).</div>
<div> </div> <div>Thank you!</div> <div>Carol Morrison</div>
<div> </div> <div> </div><p> 
<hr size=1>Never miss a thing. <a
href="http://us.rd.yahoo.com/evt=51438/*http://www.yahoo.com/r/hs"> Make
Yahoo your homepage.</a>
To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web
interface
at:
http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html
and select "Join or leave the list"
<p>
Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/
--0-514024270-1203172730=:4665--
------------------------------
Date: Sat, 16 Feb 2008 07:06:01 -0800
From: Brad Johnston <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: A Farewell to Arms?
--0-686787802-1203174361=:81199
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit
Brad,
Here is the first sentence to Hemingway's The Old man and the Sea:
"He
was an old man who fished alone in a skiff in the Gulf Stream and he had
gone eighty-four days now without taking a fish." It starts in past and
shifts to past perfect to discuss a period of time continuing into the
day
the narrative starts. If you look at the whole paragraph, you can see
how he
carries that out in following sentences as well. The point all of us are
trying to make (patiently, I think) is that context matters. ( Indeed it
does - Brad.)
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
From my archives:
[log in to unmask] wrote:
I'd love to see what you would do with A Farewell to Arms (Hemingway)
or
The Great Gatsby (Fitzgerald).
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Date: 28 Jun 2006
From: Brad Johnston [log in to unmask]
Subject: A Farewell to Arms?
To: [log in to unmask]
Not even in the service of enlightened self-interest would I subject
myself to the inane drivel of Ernest Hemingway.
"The man is a jerk." (Source of quote on request, if I can find it.)
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Here it is:
He took a sip of wine and leaned forward. "And you know," he said, "he
(Hemingway) is in fact a remarkable writer. I read one of the stories in
that little book, the one published by Monsieur Forsythe. It concerned
itself with a young man fishing, alone in the Great American Forest. No
dialog, no other characters. Just the young man, and the forest, and the
river, and the fishes. Nothing much of import happens. The young man
walks
through the forest. He arranges a camp for himself. He loses some fish
and
he catches some others. He eats the fish; very simply prepared, of
course.
He sleeps, he awakens. But all this is detailed in a language that is so
powerful, so apparently simple and precise, and yet so evocative that
the
story becomes quite profound. Somehow the reader knows, without the
writer
ever having said so, that the young man has recently returned from the
War
and its many horrors. I was most impressed."
"Why didn't you read the others?"
"Pardon?"
"You said you read one of the stories in the book. Why didn't you read
any
of the others?'
"Ah." He sat back and shrugged. "The man is a jerk."
I laughed.
..............
From "Masquerade", by Walter Satterthwait, c.1998.
---------------------------------
Never miss a thing. Make Yahoo your homepage.
To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web
interface
at:
http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html
and select "Join or leave the list"
Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/
--0-686787802-1203174361=:81199
Content-Type: text/html; charset=iso-8859-1
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit
<DIV><FONT face=verdana>Brad,<BR> Here is the first
sentence to Hemingway's The Old man and the Sea: "He was an old man
who
fished alone in a skiff in the Gulf Stream and he had gone
eighty-four
days now without taking a fish." It starts in past and shifts to
past
perfect to discuss a period of time continuing into the day the
narrative starts. If you look at the whole paragraph, you can see
how
he carries that out in following sentences as well. The point all of us
are
trying to make (patiently, I think) is that context matters.
</FONT><FONT face=arial><STRONG>( Indeed it does -
Brad.)</STRONG></FONT></DIV> <DIV><STRONG><FONT
face=arial></FONT></STRONG> </DIV> <DIV> <DIV><STRONG><FONT
face=verdana>~~~~~~~~~~~~~~</FONT><BR><BR>From my
archives:</STRONG></DIV>
<DIV><I><STRONG></STRONG></I> </DIV> <DIV><I><A
href="mailto:[log in to unmask]">[log in to unmask]</A></I> wrote:</DIV>
<DIV><STRONG></STRONG> </DIV> <DIV><STRONG><FONT face=Geneva
color=#000000 FAMILY="SANSSERIF">I'd love to see what you would do with
</FONT><FONT face=Geneva color=#000000 FAMILY="SANSSERIF"><I>A Farewell
to
Arms</I></FONT><FONT face=Geneva color=#000000 FAMILY="SANSSERIF">
(Hemingway) or </FONT><FONT face=Geneva color=#000000
FAMILY="SANSSERIF"><I>The Great Gatsby</I></FONT><FONT face=Geneva
color=#000000 FAMILY="SANSSERIF"> (Fitzgerald). </FONT></STRONG></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Geneva color=#000000
FAMILY="SANSSERIF"><STRONG></STRONG></FONT> </DIV><FONT
face=Verdana><STRONG>~~~~~~~~~~~~~~</STRONG></FONT><BR><BR>Date: 28
Jun
2006<BR>From: Brad Johnston <A
href="mailto:[log in to unmask]">[log in to unmask]</A></DIV>
<DIV>Subject: <STRONG>A Farewell to Arms?<BR></STRONG>To: <A
href="mailto:[log in to unmask]">[log in to unmask]</A></DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV><STRONG>Not even in the service of enlightened self-interest
would
I subject myself to the
inane drivel of Ernest Hemingway.</STRONG></DIV>
<DIV><STRONG></STRONG> </DIV> <DIV><STRONG>"The man is a jerk."
(Source of quote on request, if I can find it.)</STRONG></DIV>
<DIV><STRONG></STRONG> </DIV> <DIV><STRONG><FONT
face=Verdana>~~~~~~~~~~~~~~</FONT></STRONG><BR></DIV> <DIV><FONT
face=Geneva FAMILY="SANSSERIF"><STRONG></STRONG></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Geneva FAMILY="SANSSERIF"><STRONG>Here it
is:</STRONG></FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT face=Geneva
FAMILY="SANSSERIF"></FONT> </DIV><FONT face=Geneva
FAMILY="SANSSERIF">
<DIV><STRONG><FONT face=arial>He took a sip of wine and leaned forward.
"And
you know," he said, "he (Hemingway) is in fact a remarkable writer. I
read
one of the stories in that little book, the one published by Monsieur
Forsythe. It concerned itself with a young man fishing, alone in the
Great
American Forest. No dialog, no other characters. Just the young man, and
the
forest, and the river, and the fishes. Nothing much of
import happens. The young man walks through the forest. He arranges a
camp
for himself. He loses some fish and he catches some others. He eats the
fish; very simply prepared, of course. He sleeps, he awakens. But
all this is detailed in a language that is so powerful, so
apparently
simple and precise, and yet so evocative that the story becomes quite
profound. Somehow the reader knows, without the writer ever having said
so,
that the young man has recently returned from the War and its many
horrors.
I was most impressed."<BR><BR>"Why didn't you read the
others?"<BR><BR>"Pardon?"<BR><BR>"You said you read one of the stories
in
the book. Why didn't you read any of the others?'<BR><BR>"Ah." He sat
back
and shrugged. "The man is a jerk."<BR><BR>I
laughed.</FONT></STRONG></DIV>
<DIV><STRONG><FONT face=arial></FONT></STRONG> </DIV>
<DIV><STRONG><FONT face=arial>..............</FONT></STRONG></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=verdana><STRONG></STRONG></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><STRONG><FONT face=arial>From "Masquerade", by Walter
Satterthwait, c.1998.</FONT></STRONG></FONT></DIV><p> 
<hr size=1>Never miss a thing. <a
href="http://us.rd.yahoo.com/evt=51438/*http://www.yahoo.com/r/hs"> Make
Yahoo your homepage.</a>
To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web
interface
at:
http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html
and select "Join or leave the list"
<p>
Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/
--0-686787802-1203174361=:81199--
------------------------------
Date: Sat, 16 Feb 2008 07:14:49 -0800
From: Brad Johnston <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: The use of "that"
--0-104457071-1203174889=:12480
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit
I vote to "omit" in the examples you give.
All of my rough drafts have too many interpolated 'that's. I routinely
go
back and cull them.
"That said", he mumbled ...
.brad.16feb08.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Carol Morrison <[log in to unmask]> wrote:
As I am reading student essays today, I'm wondering if the use of
"that,"
which many of the students tend to omit, is necessary in certain
circumstances and what function it serves. For instance:
1) I think that we should go to the grocery store today rather than
Sunday.
vs.
2) I think we should go to the grocery store today rather than Sunday.
or, a 3rd person example, since the above are more representative of
speech than writing:
3) Jean thinks that Genuardi's is a better supermarket than Giant.
vs.
4) Jean thinks Genuardi's is a better supermarket than Giant.
My feeling is that "that" should be in the sentence. Does it function
as a
complementizer in the above sentences? (I tend to get confused with
"that"
clauses).
Thank you!
Carol Morrison
---------------------------------
Never miss a thing. Make Yahoo your homepage.
To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web
interface
at:
http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html
and select "Join or leave the list"
Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/
--0-104457071-1203174889=:12480
Content-Type: text/html; charset=iso-8859-1
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit
<div><STRONG>I vote to "omit" in the examples you
give.</STRONG></div>
<div><STRONG></STRONG> </div> <div><STRONG>All of my rough drafts
have
too many interpolated 'that's. I routinely go back and cull
them.</STRONG></div> <div><STRONG></STRONG> </div>
<div><STRONG>"That
said", he mumbled ...</STRONG></div> <div><STRONG></STRONG> </div>
<div><STRONG>.brad.16feb08.</STRONG></div>
<div><STRONG></STRONG> </div> <div><STRONG><FONT
face=verdana>~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~<BR></FONT></STRONG><BR><B><I>Carol Morrison
<[log in to unmask]></I></B> wrote:</div> <div> </div>
<DIV>As I am reading student essays today, I'm wondering if the use
of
"that," which many of the students tend to omit, is
necessary
in certain circumstances and what function it serves. For
instance:</DIV>
<DIV> </DIV> <DIV>1) I think <STRONG>that</STRONG> we should go to
the
grocery store today rather than Sunday.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV>
<DIV>vs.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>2) I think we should go to the
grocery store today rather than Sunday.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV>
<DIV>or, a
3rd person example, since the above are more representative of speech
than
writing:</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>3) Jean thinks
<STRONG>that</STRONG>
Genuardi's is a better supermarket than Giant.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV>
<DIV>vs.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>4) Jean thinks Genuardi's is a
better supermarket than Giant.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV>My feeling is that "that" should be in the sentence. Does it
function
as a complementizer in the above sentences? (I tend to get confused with
"that" clauses).</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Thank you!</DIV>
<DIV>Carol
Morrison</DIV><p> 
<hr size=1>Never miss a thing. <a
href="http://us.rd.yahoo.com/evt=51438/*http://www.yahoo.com/r/hs"> Make
Yahoo your homepage.</a>
To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web
interface
at:
http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html
and select "Join or leave the list"
<p>
Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/
--0-104457071-1203174889=:12480--
------------------------------
Date: Sat, 16 Feb 2008 10:32:35 -0500
From: Nancy Tuten <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Re: The use of "that"
This is a multi-part message in MIME format.
------=_NextPart_000_022D_01C87087.3F1DC2B0
Content-Type: text/plain;
charset="us-ascii"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
We are having the same conversation right now among the faculty in the
English Department. Our administrative assistant, whom I had asked to
proofread a letter of recommendation, wanted to remove a "that" that I
felt
was helpful (wish I had that sentence in front of me). So far, the
colleagues who have commented agree that in many cases, the word "that"
makes the sentence far more readable.
One of my colleagues had this to say:
I almost want to include a that when it is a subordinate conjunction but
not
always a that when it is a relative pronoun used as an object.
Ex. 1 I believe that . . . . (subordinate conjunction).
Ex. 2 The book I want is on the table (relative pronoun)
I would echo that thought.
I eagerly await your replies.
Nancy
Nancy L. Tuten, PhD
Professor of English
Director of the Writing-across-the-Curriculum Program
Columbia College
Columbia, South Carolina
<mailto:[log in to unmask]> [log in to unmask]
803-786-3706
_____
From: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar
[mailto:[log in to unmask]] On Behalf Of Carol Morrison
Sent: Saturday, February 16, 2008 9:39 AM
To: [log in to unmask]
Subject: The use of "that"
As I am reading student essays today, I'm wondering if the use of
"that,"
which many of the students tend to omit, is necessary in certain
circumstances and what function it serves. For instance:
1) I think that we should go to the grocery store today rather than
Sunday.
vs.
2) I think we should go to the grocery store today rather than Sunday.
or, a 3rd person example, since the above are more representative of
speech
than writing:
3) Jean thinks that Genuardi's is a better supermarket than Giant.
vs.
4) Jean thinks Genuardi's is a better supermarket than Giant.
My feeling is that "that" should be in the sentence. Does it function as
a
complementizer in the above sentences? (I tend to get confused with
"that"
clauses).
Thank you!
Carol Morrison
_____
Never miss a thing. Make Yahoo
<http://us.rd.yahoo.com/evt=51438/*http:/www.yahoo.com/r/hs> your
homepage.
To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web
interface
at: http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html and select "Join or
leave
the list"
Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/
To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web
interface
at:
http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html
and select "Join or leave the list"
Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/
------=_NextPart_000_022D_01C87087.3F1DC2B0
Content-Type: text/html;
charset="us-ascii"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
<html xmlns:v=3D"urn:schemas-microsoft-com:vml" =
xmlns:o=3D"urn:schemas-microsoft-com:office:office" =
xmlns:w=3D"urn:schemas-microsoft-com:office:word" =
xmlns:st1=3D"urn:schemas-microsoft-com:office:smarttags" =
xmlns=3D"http://www.w3.org/TR/REC-html40">
<head>
<meta http-equiv=3DContent-Type content=3D"text/html; =
charset=3Dus-ascii">
<meta name=3DGenerator content=3D"Microsoft Word 11 (filtered medium)">
<!--[if !mso]>
<style>
v\:* {behavior:url(#default#VML);}
o\:* {behavior:url(#default#VML);}
w\:* {behavior:url(#default#VML);}
.shape {behavior:url(#default#VML);}
</style>
<![endif]--><o:SmartTagType
namespaceuri=3D"urn:schemas-microsoft-com:office:smarttags" =
name=3D"State"/>
<o:SmartTagType =
namespaceuri=3D"urn:schemas-microsoft-com:office:smarttags"
name=3D"City"/>
<o:SmartTagType =
namespaceuri=3D"urn:schemas-microsoft-com:office:smarttags"
name=3D"PlaceType"/>
<o:SmartTagType =
namespaceuri=3D"urn:schemas-microsoft-com:office:smarttags"
name=3D"PlaceName"/>
<o:SmartTagType =
namespaceuri=3D"urn:schemas-microsoft-com:office:smarttags"
name=3D"place"/>
<o:SmartTagType =
namespaceuri=3D"urn:schemas-microsoft-com:office:smarttags"
name=3D"PersonName"/>
<!--[if !mso]>
<style>
st1\:*{behavior:url(#default#ieooui) }
</style>
<![endif]-->
<style>
<!--
/* Font Definitions */
@font-face
{font-family:"FuturaBlack BT";
panose-1:4 4 9 5 13 11 2 2 4 3;}
@font-face
{font-family:Georgia;
panose-1:2 4 5 2 5 4 5 2 3 3;}
@font-face
{font-family:Tahoma;
panose-1:2 11 6 4 3 5 4 4 2 4;}
/* Style Definitions */
p.MsoNormal, li.MsoNormal, div.MsoNormal
{margin:0in;
margin-bottom:.0001pt;
font-size:12.0pt;
font-family:"Times New Roman";}
p.MsoEnvelopeAddress, li.MsoEnvelopeAddress, div.MsoEnvelopeAddress
{margin-top:0in;
margin-right:0in;
margin-bottom:0in;
margin-left:2.0in;
margin-bottom:.0001pt;
mso-element:frame;
font-size:22.0pt;
font-family:"FuturaBlack BT";
color:lime;}
p.MsoEnvelopeReturn, li.MsoEnvelopeReturn, div.MsoEnvelopeReturn
{margin:0in;
margin-bottom:.0001pt;
font-size:12.0pt;
font-family:"FuturaBlack BT";
color:lime;}
a:link, span.MsoHyperlink
{color:blue;
text-decoration:underline;}
a:visited, span.MsoHyperlinkFollowed
{color:blue;
text-decoration:underline;}
p
{mso-margin-top-alt:auto;
margin-right:0in;
mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto;
margin-left:0in;
font-size:12.0pt;
font-family:"Times New Roman";}
span.EmailStyle21
{mso-style-type:personal-reply;
font-family:"Times New Roman";
font-variant:normal !important;
color:windowtext;
text-transform:none;
font-weight:normal;
font-style:normal;
text-decoration:none none;
vertical-align:baseline;}
@page Section1
{size:8.5in 11.0in;
margin:1.0in 1.0in 1.0in 1.0in;}
div.Section1
{page:Section1;}
-->
</style>
</head>
<body lang=3DEN-US link=3Dblue vlink=3Dblue>
<div class=3DSection1>
<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D4 face=3D"Times New Roman"><span =
style=3D'font-size:
13.0pt'>We are having the same conversation right now among the faculty
=
in the
English Department. Our administrative assistant, whom I had asked to =
proofread
a letter of recommendation, wanted to remove a “that” that I
=
felt
was helpful (wish I had that sentence in front of me). So far, the =
colleagues
who have commented agree that in many cases, the word “that”
=
makes
the sentence far more readable.<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=3DMsoNormal =
style=3D'mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><font
size=3D4 face=3D"Times New Roman"><span style=3D'font-size:13.0pt'>One =
of my
colleagues had this to say: <o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=3DMsoNormal =
style=3D'mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><font
size=3D2 color=3Dnavy face=3DArial><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Arial;
color:navy'>I almost want to include a <i><span =
style=3D'font-style:italic'>that</span></i>
when it is a subordinate conjunction but not always a <i><span
style=3D'font-style:italic'>that</span></i> when it is a relative =
pronoun used as
an object. <o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=3DMsoNormal =
style=3D'mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><font
size=3D2 color=3Dnavy face=3DArial><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Arial;
color:navy'>Ex. 1 I believe that . . . . (subordinate conjunction). =
<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=3DMsoNormal =
style=3D'mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><font
size=3D2 color=3Dnavy face=3DArial><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Arial;
color:navy'>Ex. 2 The book I want is on the table (relative =
pronoun)</span></font><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3DMsoNormal =
style=3D'mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><font
size=3D4 face=3D"Times New Roman"><span style=3D'font-size:13.0pt'>I =
would echo that
thought. <o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=3DMsoNormal =
style=3D'mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><font
size=3D4 face=3D"Times New Roman"><span style=3D'font-size:13.0pt'>I =
eagerly await
your replies.<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=3DMsoNormal =
style=3D'mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><st1:City
w:st=3D"on"><st1:place w:st=3D"on"><font size=3D4 face=3D"Times New =
Roman"><span
=
style=3D'font-size:13.0pt'>Nancy</span></font></st1:place></st1:City><fo
n=
t
size=3D4><span style=3D'font-size:13.0pt'><o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D4 face=3D"Times New Roman"><span =
style=3D'font-size:
13.0pt'><o:p> </o:p></span></font></p>
<div>
<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D3 face=3DGeorgia><span =
style=3D'font-size:12.0pt;
font-family:Georgia'>Nancy L. Tuten, PhD</span></font><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D3 face=3DGeorgia><span =
style=3D'font-size:12.0pt;
font-family:Georgia'>Professor of English</span></font><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D3 face=3DGeorgia><span =
style=3D'font-size:12.0pt;
font-family:Georgia'>Director of the Writing-across-the-Curriculum =
Program</span></font><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3DMsoNormal><st1:place w:st=3D"on"><st1:PlaceName =
w:st=3D"on"><font size=3D3
face=3DGeorgia><span =
style=3D'font-size:12.0pt;font-family:Georgia'>Columbia</span></font></s
t=
1:PlaceName><font
face=3DGeorgia><span style=3D'font-family:Georgia'> <st1:PlaceType =
w:st=3D"on">College</st1:PlaceType></span></font></st1:place><o:p></o:p>
<=
/p>
<p class=3DMsoNormal><st1:place w:st=3D"on"><st1:City w:st=3D"on"><font
=
size=3D3
face=3DGeorgia><span =
style=3D'font-size:12.0pt;font-family:Georgia'>Columbia</span></font></s
t=
1:City><font
face=3DGeorgia><span style=3D'font-family:Georgia'>, <st1:State =
w:st=3D"on">South
Carolina</st1:State></span></font></st1:place><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D3 face=3D"Times New Roman"><span =
style=3D'font-size:
12.0pt'><a href=3D"mailto:[log in to unmask]"><font color=3Dblack =
face=3DGeorgia><span
style=3D'font-family:Georgia;color:black'>[log in to unmask]</span></fo
n=
t></a><o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D3 face=3DGeorgia><span =
style=3D'font-size:12.0pt;
font-family:Georgia'>803-786-3706</span></font><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<div class=3DMsoNormal align=3Dcenter =
style=3D'margin-left:.5in;text-align:center'><font
size=3D3 face=3D"Times New Roman"><span style=3D'font-size:12.0pt'>
<hr size=3D2 width=3D"100%" align=3Dcenter tabindex=3D-1>
</span></font></div>
<p class=3DMsoNormal style=3D'margin-left:.5in'><b><font size=3D2 =
face=3DTahoma><span
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Tahoma;font-weight:bold'>From:</sp
a=
n></font></b><font
size=3D2 face=3DTahoma><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Tahoma'> <st1:PersonName
w:st=3D"on">Assembly for the Teaching of English =
Grammar</st1:PersonName>
[mailto:[log in to unmask]] <b><span style=3D'font-weight:bold'>On
=
Behalf
Of </span></b>Carol Morrison<br>
<b><span style=3D'font-weight:bold'>Sent:</span></b> Saturday, February
=
16, 2008
9:39 AM<br>
<b><span style=3D'font-weight:bold'>To:</span></b> =
[log in to unmask]<br>
<b><span style=3D'font-weight:bold'>Subject:</span></b> The use of
"that"</span></font><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<p class=3DMsoNormal style=3D'margin-left:.5in'><font size=3D3 =
face=3D"Times New Roman"><span
style=3D'font-size:12.0pt'><o:p> </o:p></span></font></p>
<div>
<p class=3DMsoNormal style=3D'margin-left:.5in'><font size=3D3 =
face=3D"Times New Roman"><span
style=3D'font-size:12.0pt'>As I am reading student essays today, I'm
wondering if the use of "that," which many of the
students tend to omit, is necessary in certain circumstances =
and what
function it serves. For instance:<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3DMsoNormal style=3D'margin-left:.5in'><font size=3D3 =
face=3D"Times New Roman"><span
style=3D'font-size:12.0pt'> <o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3DMsoNormal style=3D'margin-left:.5in'><font size=3D3 =
face=3D"Times New Roman"><span
style=3D'font-size:12.0pt'>1) I think <strong><b><font face=3D"Times New
=
Roman">that</font></b></strong>
we should go to the grocery store today rather than =
Sunday.<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3DMsoNormal style=3D'margin-left:.5in'><font size=3D3 =
face=3D"Times New Roman"><span
style=3D'font-size:12.0pt'> <o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3DMsoNormal style=3D'margin-left:.5in'><font size=3D3 =
face=3D"Times New Roman"><span
style=3D'font-size:12.0pt'>vs.<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3DMsoNormal style=3D'margin-left:.5in'><font size=3D3 =
face=3D"Times New Roman"><span
style=3D'font-size:12.0pt'> <o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3DMsoNormal style=3D'margin-left:.5in'><font size=3D3 =
face=3D"Times New Roman"><span
style=3D'font-size:12.0pt'>2) I think we should go to the grocery store
=
today
rather than Sunday.<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3DMsoNormal style=3D'margin-left:.5in'><font size=3D3 =
face=3D"Times New Roman"><span
style=3D'font-size:12.0pt'> <o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3DMsoNormal style=3D'margin-left:.5in'><font size=3D3 =
face=3D"Times New Roman"><span
style=3D'font-size:12.0pt'>or, a 3rd person example, since the above are
=
more
representative of speech than writing:<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3DMsoNormal style=3D'margin-left:.5in'><font size=3D3 =
face=3D"Times New Roman"><span
style=3D'font-size:12.0pt'> <o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3DMsoNormal style=3D'margin-left:.5in'><font size=3D3 =
face=3D"Times New Roman"><span
style=3D'font-size:12.0pt'>3) Jean thinks <strong><b><font face=3D"Times
=
New Roman">that</font></b></strong>
Genuardi's is a better supermarket than =
Giant.<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3DMsoNormal style=3D'margin-left:.5in'><font size=3D3 =
face=3D"Times New Roman"><span
style=3D'font-size:12.0pt'> <o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3DMsoNormal style=3D'margin-left:.5in'><font size=3D3 =
face=3D"Times New Roman"><span
style=3D'font-size:12.0pt'>vs.<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3DMsoNormal style=3D'margin-left:.5in'><font size=3D3 =
face=3D"Times New Roman"><span
style=3D'font-size:12.0pt'> <o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3DMsoNormal style=3D'margin-left:.5in'><font size=3D3 =
face=3D"Times New Roman"><span
style=3D'font-size:12.0pt'>4) Jean thinks Genuardi's is a better =
supermarket than
Giant.<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3DMsoNormal style=3D'margin-left:.5in'><font size=3D3 =
face=3D"Times New Roman"><span
style=3D'font-size:12.0pt'> <o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3DMsoNormal style=3D'margin-left:.5in'><font size=3D3 =
face=3D"Times New Roman"><span
style=3D'font-size:12.0pt'> <o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3DMsoNormal style=3D'margin-left:.5in'><font size=3D3 =
face=3D"Times New Roman"><span
style=3D'font-size:12.0pt'>My feeling is that "that" should be
=
in the
sentence. Does it function as a complementizer in the above sentences? =
(I tend
to get confused with "that" =
clauses).<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3DMsoNormal style=3D'margin-left:.5in'><font size=3D3 =
face=3D"Times New Roman"><span
style=3D'font-size:12.0pt'> <o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3DMsoNormal style=3D'margin-left:.5in'><font size=3D3 =
face=3D"Times New Roman"><span
style=3D'font-size:12.0pt'>Thank you!<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3DMsoNormal style=3D'margin-left:.5in'><font size=3D3 =
face=3D"Times New Roman"><span
style=3D'font-size:12.0pt'>Carol Morrison<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3DMsoNormal style=3D'margin-left:.5in'><font size=3D3 =
face=3D"Times New Roman"><span
style=3D'font-size:12.0pt'> <o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3DMsoNormal style=3D'margin-left:.5in'><font size=3D3 =
face=3D"Times New Roman"><span
style=3D'font-size:12.0pt'> <o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
</div>
<p style=3D'margin-left:.5in'><font size=3D3 face=3D"Times New =
Roman"><span
style=3D'font-size:12.0pt'> <o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<div class=3DMsoNormal align=3Dcenter =
style=3D'margin-left:.5in;text-align:center'><font
size=3D3 face=3D"Times New Roman"><span style=3D'font-size:12.0pt'>
<hr size=3D1 width=3D"100%" align=3Dcenter>
</span></font></div>
<p class=3DMsoNormal style=3D'margin-left:.5in'><font size=3D3 =
face=3D"Times New Roman"><span
style=3D'font-size:12.0pt'>Never miss a thing. <a
href=3D"http://us.rd.yahoo.com/evt=3D51438/*http:/www.yahoo.com/r/hs">Ma
k=
e Yahoo
your homepage.</a> To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the
=
list's
web interface at: http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html and =
select
"Join or leave the list" <o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p style=3D'margin-left:.5in'><font size=3D3 face=3D"Times New =
Roman"><span
style=3D'font-size:12.0pt'>Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/ =
<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
</div>
</body>
</html>
To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web
interface
at:
http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html
and select "Join or leave the list"
<p>
Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/
------=_NextPart_000_022D_01C87087.3F1DC2B0--
------------------------------
Date: Sat, 16 Feb 2008 10:39:20 -0500
From: Nancy Tuten <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Re: The use of "that"
This is a multi-part message in MIME format.
------=_NextPart_000_023A_01C87088.306C0D70
Content-Type: text/plain;
charset="us-ascii"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
How about in these examples?
Molly hates Fred isn't coming to the party.
Molly hates that Fred isn't coming to the party.
I would argue that the reader gets to the word "isn't" and realizes that
perhaps the thought that "Molly hates Fred" isn't what the writer
intended.
The reader then has to start over and rethink the sentence. It seems to
me
that it is the writer's job to keep the reader from doing that extra
work.
There is no doubt that the word "that" is unnecessary in many cases.
However, when I train in the business world and when I teach in the
college
classroom, I run into a lot of people who have been told to remove all
their
"thats." I argue that they should decide on a case-by-case basis.
Nancy
Nancy L. Tuten, PhD
Professor of English
Director of the Writing-across-the-Curriculum Program
Columbia College
Columbia, South Carolina
<mailto:[log in to unmask]> [log in to unmask]
803-786-3706
_____
From: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar
[mailto:[log in to unmask]] On Behalf Of Carol Morrison
Sent: Saturday, February 16, 2008 9:39 AM
To: [log in to unmask]
Subject: The use of "that"
As I am reading student essays today, I'm wondering if the use of
"that,"
which many of the students tend to omit, is necessary in certain
circumstances and what function it serves. For instance:
1) I think that we should go to the grocery store today rather than
Sunday.
vs.
2) I think we should go to the grocery store today rather than Sunday.
or, a 3rd person example, since the above are more representative of
speech
than writing:
3) Jean thinks that Genuardi's is a better supermarket than Giant.
vs.
4) Jean thinks Genuardi's is a better supermarket than Giant.
My feeling is that "that" should be in the sentence. Does it function as
a
complementizer in the above sentences? (I tend to get confused with
"that"
clauses).
Thank you!
Carol Morrison
_____
Never miss a thing. Make Yahoo
<http://us.rd.yahoo.com/evt=51438/*http:/www.yahoo.com/r/hs> your
homepage.
To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web
interface
at: http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html and select "Join or
leave
the list"
Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/
To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web
interface
at:
http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html
and select "Join or leave the list"
Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/
------=_NextPart_000_023A_01C87088.306C0D70
Content-Type: text/html;
charset="us-ascii"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
<html xmlns:v=3D"urn:schemas-microsoft-com:vml" =
xmlns:o=3D"urn:schemas-microsoft-com:office:office" =
xmlns:w=3D"urn:schemas-microsoft-com:office:word" =
xmlns:st1=3D"urn:schemas-microsoft-com:office:smarttags" =
xmlns=3D"http://www.w3.org/TR/REC-html40">
<head>
<meta http-equiv=3DContent-Type content=3D"text/html; =
charset=3Dus-ascii">
<meta name=3DGenerator content=3D"Microsoft Word 11 (filtered medium)">
<!--[if !mso]>
<style>
v\:* {behavior:url(#default#VML);}
o\:* {behavior:url(#default#VML);}
w\:* {behavior:url(#default#VML);}
.shape {behavior:url(#default#VML);}
</style>
<![endif]--><o:SmartTagType
namespaceuri=3D"urn:schemas-microsoft-com:office:smarttags" =
name=3D"State"/>
<o:SmartTagType =
namespaceuri=3D"urn:schemas-microsoft-com:office:smarttags"
name=3D"City"/>
<o:SmartTagType =
namespaceuri=3D"urn:schemas-microsoft-com:office:smarttags"
name=3D"PlaceType"/>
<o:SmartTagType =
namespaceuri=3D"urn:schemas-microsoft-com:office:smarttags"
name=3D"PlaceName"/>
<o:SmartTagType =
namespaceuri=3D"urn:schemas-microsoft-com:office:smarttags"
name=3D"place"/>
<o:SmartTagType =
namespaceuri=3D"urn:schemas-microsoft-com:office:smarttags"
name=3D"PersonName"/>
<!--[if !mso]>
<style>
st1\:*{behavior:url(#default#ieooui) }
</style>
<![endif]-->
<style>
<!--
/* Font Definitions */
@font-face
{font-family:"FuturaBlack BT";
panose-1:4 4 9 5 13 11 2 2 4 3;}
@font-face
{font-family:Georgia;
panose-1:2 4 5 2 5 4 5 2 3 3;}
@font-face
{font-family:Tahoma;
panose-1:2 11 6 4 3 5 4 4 2 4;}
/* Style Definitions */
p.MsoNormal, li.MsoNormal, div.MsoNormal
{margin:0in;
margin-bottom:.0001pt;
font-size:12.0pt;
font-family:"Times New Roman";}
p.MsoEnvelopeAddress, li.MsoEnvelopeAddress, div.MsoEnvelopeAddress
{margin-top:0in;
margin-right:0in;
margin-bottom:0in;
margin-left:2.0in;
margin-bottom:.0001pt;
mso-element:frame;
font-size:22.0pt;
font-family:"FuturaBlack BT";
color:lime;}
p.MsoEnvelopeReturn, li.MsoEnvelopeReturn, div.MsoEnvelopeReturn
{margin:0in;
margin-bottom:.0001pt;
font-size:12.0pt;
font-family:"FuturaBlack BT";
color:lime;}
a:link, span.MsoHyperlink
{color:blue;
text-decoration:underline;}
a:visited, span.MsoHyperlinkFollowed
{color:blue;
text-decoration:underline;}
p
{mso-margin-top-alt:auto;
margin-right:0in;
mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto;
margin-left:0in;
font-size:12.0pt;
font-family:"Times New Roman";}
span.EmailStyle21
{mso-style-type:personal-reply;
font-family:"Times New Roman";
font-variant:normal !important;
color:windowtext;
text-transform:none;
font-weight:normal;
font-style:normal;
text-decoration:none none;
vertical-align:baseline;}
@page Section1
{size:8.5in 11.0in;
margin:1.0in 1.0in 1.0in 1.0in;}
div.Section1
{page:Section1;}
-->
</style>
</head>
<body lang=3DEN-US link=3Dblue vlink=3Dblue>
<div class=3DSection1>
<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D4 face=3D"Times New Roman"><span =
style=3D'font-size:
13.0pt'>How about in these examples?<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D4 face=3D"Times New Roman"><span =
style=3D'font-size:
13.0pt'><o:p> </o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D4 face=3D"Times New Roman"><span =
style=3D'font-size:
13.0pt'>Molly hates Fred isn’t coming to the =
party.<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D4 face=3D"Times New Roman"><span =
style=3D'font-size:
13.0pt'>Molly hates that Fred isn’t coming to the =
party.<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D4 face=3D"Times New Roman"><span =
style=3D'font-size:
13.0pt'><o:p> </o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D4 face=3D"Times New Roman"><span =
style=3D'font-size:
13.0pt'>I would argue that the reader gets to the word =
“isn’t”
and realizes that perhaps the thought that “Molly hates =
Fred” isn’t
what the writer intended. The reader then has to start over and rethink
=
the
sentence. It seems to me that it is the writer’s job to keep the =
reader
from doing that extra work.<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D4 face=3D"Times New Roman"><span =
style=3D'font-size:
13.0pt'><o:p> </o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D4 face=3D"Times New Roman"><span =
style=3D'font-size:
13.0pt'>There is no doubt that the word “that” is =
unnecessary in
many cases. However, when I train in the business world and when I teach
=
in the
college classroom, I run into a lot of people who have been told to =
remove <i><span
style=3D'font-style:italic'>all</span></i> their “thats.” I
=
argue
that they should decide on a case-by-case =
basis.<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D4 face=3D"Times New Roman"><span =
style=3D'font-size:
13.0pt'><o:p> </o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=3DMsoNormal><st1:place w:st=3D"on"><st1:City w:st=3D"on"><font
=
size=3D4
face=3D"Times New Roman"><span =
style=3D'font-size:13.0pt'>Nancy</span></font></st1:City></st1:place><fo
n=
t
size=3D4><span style=3D'font-size:13.0pt'><o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D4 face=3D"Times New Roman"><span =
style=3D'font-size:
13.0pt'><o:p> </o:p></span></font></p>
<div>
<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D3 face=3DGeorgia><span =
style=3D'font-size:12.0pt;
font-family:Georgia'>Nancy L. Tuten, PhD</span></font><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D3 face=3DGeorgia><span =
style=3D'font-size:12.0pt;
font-family:Georgia'>Professor of English</span></font><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D3 face=3DGeorgia><span =
style=3D'font-size:12.0pt;
font-family:Georgia'>Director of the Writing-across-the-Curriculum =
Program</span></font><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3DMsoNormal><st1:place w:st=3D"on"><st1:PlaceName =
w:st=3D"on"><font size=3D3
face=3DGeorgia><span =
style=3D'font-size:12.0pt;font-family:Georgia'>Columbia</span></font></s
t=
1:PlaceName><font
face=3DGeorgia><span style=3D'font-family:Georgia'> <st1:PlaceType =
w:st=3D"on">College</st1:PlaceType></span></font></st1:place><o:p></o:p>
<=
/p>
<p class=3DMsoNormal><st1:place w:st=3D"on"><st1:City w:st=3D"on"><font
=
size=3D3
face=3DGeorgia><span =
style=3D'font-size:12.0pt;font-family:Georgia'>Columbia</span></font></s
t=
1:City><font
face=3DGeorgia><span style=3D'font-family:Georgia'>, <st1:State =
w:st=3D"on">South
Carolina</st1:State></span></font></st1:place><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D3 face=3D"Times New Roman"><span =
style=3D'font-size:
12.0pt'><a href=3D"mailto:[log in to unmask]"><font color=3Dblack =
face=3DGeorgia><span
style=3D'font-family:Georgia;color:black'>[log in to unmask]</span></fo
n=
t></a><o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D3 face=3DGeorgia><span =
style=3D'font-size:12.0pt;
font-family:Georgia'>803-786-3706</span></font><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<div class=3DMsoNormal align=3Dcenter =
style=3D'margin-left:.5in;text-align:center'><font
size=3D3 face=3D"Times New Roman"><span style=3D'font-size:12.0pt'>
<hr size=3D2 width=3D"100%" align=3Dcenter tabindex=3D-1>
</span></font></div>
<p class=3DMsoNormal style=3D'margin-left:.5in'><b><font size=3D2 =
face=3DTahoma><span
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Tahoma;font-weight:bold'>From:</sp
a=
n></font></b><font
size=3D2 face=3DTahoma><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Tahoma'> <st1:PersonName
w:st=3D"on">Assembly for the Teaching of English =
Grammar</st1:PersonName>
[mailto:[log in to unmask]] <b><span style=3D'font-weight:bold'>On
=
Behalf
Of </span></b>Carol Morrison<br>
<b><span style=3D'font-weight:bold'>Sent:</span></b> Saturday, February
=
16, 2008
9:39 AM<br>
<b><span style=3D'font-weight:bold'>To:</span></b> =
[log in to unmask]<br>
<b><span style=3D'font-weight:bold'>Subject:</span></b> The use of
"that"</span></font><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<p class=3DMsoNormal style=3D'margin-left:.5in'><font size=3D3 =
face=3D"Times New Roman"><span
style=3D'font-size:12.0pt'><o:p> </o:p></span></font></p>
<div>
<p class=3DMsoNormal style=3D'margin-left:.5in'><font size=3D3 =
face=3D"Times New Roman"><span
style=3D'font-size:12.0pt'>As I am reading student essays today, I'm
wondering if the use of "that," which many of the
students tend to omit, is necessary in certain circumstances =
and what
function it serves. For instance:<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3DMsoNormal style=3D'margin-left:.5in'><font size=3D3 =
face=3D"Times New Roman"><span
style=3D'font-size:12.0pt'> <o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3DMsoNormal style=3D'margin-left:.5in'><font size=3D3 =
face=3D"Times New Roman"><span
style=3D'font-size:12.0pt'>1) I think <strong><b><font face=3D"Times New
=
Roman">that</font></b></strong>
we should go to the grocery store today rather than =
Sunday.<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3DMsoNormal style=3D'margin-left:.5in'><font size=3D3 =
face=3D"Times New Roman"><span
style=3D'font-size:12.0pt'> <o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3DMsoNormal style=3D'margin-left:.5in'><font size=3D3 =
face=3D"Times New Roman"><span
style=3D'font-size:12.0pt'>vs.<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3DMsoNormal style=3D'margin-left:.5in'><font size=3D3 =
face=3D"Times New Roman"><span
style=3D'font-size:12.0pt'> <o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3DMsoNormal style=3D'margin-left:.5in'><font size=3D3 =
face=3D"Times New Roman"><span
style=3D'font-size:12.0pt'>2) I think we should go to the grocery store
=
today
rather than Sunday.<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3DMsoNormal style=3D'margin-left:.5in'><font size=3D3 =
face=3D"Times New Roman"><span
style=3D'font-size:12.0pt'> <o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3DMsoNormal style=3D'margin-left:.5in'><font size=3D3 =
face=3D"Times New Roman"><span
style=3D'font-size:12.0pt'>or, a 3rd person example, since the above are
=
more
representative of speech than writing:<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3DMsoNormal style=3D'margin-left:.5in'><font size=3D3 =
face=3D"Times New Roman"><span
style=3D'font-size:12.0pt'> <o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3DMsoNormal style=3D'margin-left:.5in'><font size=3D3 =
face=3D"Times New Roman"><span
style=3D'font-size:12.0pt'>3) Jean thinks <strong><b><font face=3D"Times
=
New Roman">that</font></b></strong>
Genuardi's is a better supermarket than =
Giant.<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3DMsoNormal style=3D'margin-left:.5in'><font size=3D3 =
face=3D"Times New Roman"><span
style=3D'font-size:12.0pt'> <o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3DMsoNormal style=3D'margin-left:.5in'><font size=3D3 =
face=3D"Times New Roman"><span
style=3D'font-size:12.0pt'>vs.<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3DMsoNormal style=3D'margin-left:.5in'><font size=3D3 =
face=3D"Times New Roman"><span
style=3D'font-size:12.0pt'> <o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3DMsoNormal style=3D'margin-left:.5in'><font size=3D3 =
face=3D"Times New Roman"><span
style=3D'font-size:12.0pt'>4) Jean thinks Genuardi's is a better =
supermarket than
Giant.<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3DMsoNormal style=3D'margin-left:.5in'><font size=3D3 =
face=3D"Times New Roman"><span
style=3D'font-size:12.0pt'> <o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3DMsoNormal style=3D'margin-left:.5in'><font size=3D3 =
face=3D"Times New Roman"><span
style=3D'font-size:12.0pt'> <o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3DMsoNormal style=3D'margin-left:.5in'><font size=3D3 =
face=3D"Times New Roman"><span
style=3D'font-size:12.0pt'>My feeling is that "that" should be
=
in the
sentence. Does it function as a complementizer in the above sentences? =
(I tend
to get confused with "that" =
clauses).<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3DMsoNormal style=3D'margin-left:.5in'><font size=3D3 =
face=3D"Times New Roman"><span
style=3D'font-size:12.0pt'> <o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3DMsoNormal style=3D'margin-left:.5in'><font size=3D3 =
face=3D"Times New Roman"><span
style=3D'font-size:12.0pt'>Thank you!<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3DMsoNormal style=3D'margin-left:.5in'><font size=3D3 =
face=3D"Times New Roman"><span
style=3D'font-size:12.0pt'>Carol Morrison<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3DMsoNormal style=3D'margin-left:.5in'><font size=3D3 =
face=3D"Times New Roman"><span
style=3D'font-size:12.0pt'> <o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3DMsoNormal style=3D'margin-left:.5in'><font size=3D3 =
face=3D"Times New Roman"><span
style=3D'font-size:12.0pt'> <o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
</div>
<p style=3D'margin-left:.5in'><font size=3D3 face=3D"Times New =
Roman"><span
style=3D'font-size:12.0pt'> <o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<div class=3DMsoNormal align=3Dcenter =
style=3D'margin-left:.5in;text-align:center'><font
size=3D3 face=3D"Times New Roman"><span style=3D'font-size:12.0pt'>
<hr size=3D1 width=3D"100%" align=3Dcenter>
</span></font></div>
<p class=3DMsoNormal style=3D'margin-left:.5in'><font size=3D3 =
face=3D"Times New Roman"><span
style=3D'font-size:12.0pt'>Never miss a thing. <a
href=3D"http://us.rd.yahoo.com/evt=3D51438/*http:/www.yahoo.com/r/hs">Ma
k=
e Yahoo
your homepage.</a> To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the
=
list's
web interface at: http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html and =
select
"Join or leave the list" <o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p style=3D'margin-left:.5in'><font size=3D3 face=3D"Times New =
Roman"><span
style=3D'font-size:12.0pt'>Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/ =
<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
</div>
</body>
</html>
To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web
interface
at:
http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html
and select "Join or leave the list"
<p>
Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/
------=_NextPart_000_023A_01C87088.306C0D70--
------------------------------
Date: Sat, 16 Feb 2008 07:51:04 -0800
From: Carol Morrison <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Text without context
--0-993244150-1203177064=:4183
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit
I like Hemingway and Fitzgerald, but I suppose it's a matter of taste.
If
you really want to get lost in a great example of "text without
context,"
try reading the first section (often referred to as the 'Benji' section)
of
Faulkner's The Sound and the Fury! I love Faulkner, but that section
gave me
several migraines as I was trying to make sense of it.
Brad Johnston <[log in to unmask]> wrote: Brad,
Here is the first sentence to Hemingway's The Old man and the Sea:
"He
was an old man who fished alone in a skiff in the Gulf Stream and he had
gone eighty-four days now without taking a fish." It starts in past and
shifts to past perfect to discuss a period of time continuing into the
day
the narrative starts. If you look at the whole paragraph, you can see
how he
carries that out in following sentences as well. The point all of us are
trying to make (patiently, I think) is that context matters. ( Indeed it
does - Brad.)
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
From my archives:
[log in to unmask] wrote:
I'd love to see what you would do with A Farewell to Arms (Hemingway)
or
The Great Gatsby (Fitzgerald).
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Date: 28 Jun 2006
From: Brad Johnston [log in to unmask]
Subject: A Farewell to Arms?
To: [log in to unmask]
Not even in the service of enlightened self-interest would I subject
myself to the inane drivel of Ernest Hemingway.
"The man is a jerk." (Source of quote on request, if I can find it.)
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Here it is:
He took a sip of wine and leaned forward. "And you know," he said, "he
(Hemingway) is in fact a remarkable writer. I read one of the stories in
that little book, the one published by Monsieur Forsythe. It concerned
itself with a young man fishing, alone in the Great American Forest. No
dialog, no other characters. Just the young man, and the forest, and the
river, and the fishes. Nothing much of import happens. The young man
walks
through the forest. He arranges a camp for himself. He loses some fish
and
he catches some others. He eats the fish; very simply prepared, of
course.
He sleeps, he awakens. But all this is detailed in a language that is so
powerful, so apparently simple and precise, and yet so evocative that
the
story becomes quite profound. Somehow the reader knows, without the
writer
ever having said so, that the young man has recently returned from the
War
and its many horrors. I was most impressed."
"Why didn't you read the others?"
"Pardon?"
"You said you read one of the stories in the book. Why didn't you read
any
of the others?'
"Ah." He sat back and shrugged. "The man is a jerk."
I laughed.
..............
From "Masquerade", by Walter Satterthwait, c.1998.
---------------------------------
Never miss a thing. Make Yahoo your homepage. To join or leave this
LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web interface at:
http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html and select "Join or leave
the
list" Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/
---------------------------------
Be a better friend, newshound, and know-it-all with Yahoo! Mobile. Try
it
now.
To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web
interface
at:
http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html
and select "Join or leave the list"
Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/
--0-993244150-1203177064=:4183
Content-Type: text/html; charset=iso-8859-1
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit
I like Hemingway and Fitzgerald, but I suppose it's a matter of taste.
If
you really want to get lost in a great example of "text without
context,"
try reading the first section (often referred to as the 'Benji' section)
of
Faulkner's <EM>The Sound and the Fury</EM>! I love Faulkner, but that
section gave me several migraines as I was trying to make sense of
it.<BR><BR><B><I>Brad Johnston <[log in to unmask]></I></B>
wrote:
<BLOCKQUOTE class=replbq style="PADDING-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px;
BORDER-LEFT: #1010ff 2px solid"> <DIV><FONT
face=verdana>Brad,<BR> Here is the first sentence to
Hemingway's The Old man and the Sea: "He was an old man who fished
alone in a skiff in the Gulf Stream and he had gone eighty-four
days
now without taking a fish." It starts in past and shifts to past
perfect to discuss a period of time continuing into the day the
narrative starts. If you look at the whole paragraph, you can see
how
he
carries that out in following sentences as well. The point all of us
are
trying to make (patiently, I think) is that context matters.
</FONT><FONT face=arial><STRONG>( Indeed it does -
Brad.)</STRONG></FONT></DIV> <DIV><STRONG><FONT
face=arial></FONT></STRONG> </DIV> <DIV> <DIV><STRONG><FONT
face=verdana>~~~~~~~~~~~~~~</FONT><BR><BR>From my
archives:</STRONG></DIV>
<DIV><I><STRONG></STRONG></I> </DIV> <DIV><I><A
href="mailto:[log in to unmask]">[log in to unmask]</A></I> wrote:</DIV>
<DIV><STRONG></STRONG> </DIV> <DIV><STRONG><FONT face=Geneva
color=#000000 FAMILY="SANSSERIF">I'd love to see what you would do with
</FONT><FONT face=Geneva color=#000000 FAMILY="SANSSERIF"><I>A Farewell
to
Arms</I></FONT><FONT face=Geneva color=#000000 FAMILY="SANSSERIF">
(Hemingway) or </FONT><FONT face=Geneva color=#000000
FAMILY="SANSSERIF"><I>The Great Gatsby</I></FONT><FONT face=Geneva
color=#000000 FAMILY="SANSSERIF"> (Fitzgerald). </FONT></STRONG></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Geneva color=#000000
FAMILY="SANSSERIF"><STRONG></STRONG></FONT> </DIV><FONT
face=Verdana><STRONG>~~~~~~~~~~~~~~</STRONG></FONT><BR><BR>Date: 28
Jun
2006<BR>From: Brad Johnston <A
href="mailto:[log in to unmask]">[log in to unmask]</A></DIV>
<DIV>Subject: <STRONG>A Farewell to Arms?<BR></STRONG>To: <A
href="mailto:[log in to unmask]">[log in to unmask]</A></DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV><STRONG>Not even in the service of enlightened self-interest
would
I subject myself to the inane drivel of Ernest Hemingway.</STRONG></DIV>
<DIV><STRONG></STRONG> </DIV> <DIV><STRONG>"The man is a jerk."
(Source of quote on request, if I can find it.)</STRONG></DIV>
<DIV><STRONG></STRONG> </DIV> <DIV><STRONG><FONT
face=Verdana>~~~~~~~~~~~~~~</FONT></STRONG><BR></DIV> <DIV><FONT
face=Geneva FAMILY="SANSSERIF"><STRONG></STRONG></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Geneva FAMILY="SANSSERIF"><STRONG>Here it
is:</STRONG></FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT
face=Geneva FAMILY="SANSSERIF"></FONT> </DIV><FONT face=Geneva
FAMILY="SANSSERIF"> <DIV><STRONG><FONT face=arial>He took a sip of wine
and
leaned forward. "And you know," he said, "he (Hemingway) is in fact a
remarkable writer. I read one of the stories in that little book, the
one
published by Monsieur Forsythe. It concerned itself with a young man
fishing, alone in the Great American Forest. No dialog, no other
characters.
Just the young man, and the forest, and the river, and the fishes.
Nothing
much of import happens. The young man walks through the forest. He
arranges
a camp for himself. He loses some fish and he catches some others. He
eats
the fish; very simply prepared, of course. He sleeps, he awakens. But
all this is detailed in a language that is so powerful, so
apparently
simple and precise, and yet so evocative that the story becomes quite
profound. Somehow the reader knows, without the writer ever having said
so,
that the young man has recently
returned from the War and its many horrors. I was most
impressed."<BR><BR>"Why didn't you read the
others?"<BR><BR>"Pardon?"<BR><BR>"You said you read one of the stories
in
the book. Why didn't you read any of the others?'<BR><BR>"Ah." He sat
back
and shrugged. "The man is a jerk."<BR><BR>I
laughed.</FONT></STRONG></DIV>
<DIV><STRONG><FONT face=arial></FONT></STRONG> </DIV>
<DIV><STRONG><FONT face=arial>..............</FONT></STRONG></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=verdana><STRONG></STRONG></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><STRONG><FONT face=arial>From "Masquerade", by Walter
Satterthwait, c.1998.</FONT></STRONG></FONT></DIV> <div> <HR SIZE=1>
Never miss a thing. <A
href="http://us.rd.yahoo.com/evt=51438/*http://www.yahoo.com/r/hs">Make
Yahoo your homepage.</A> To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please
visit
the list's web interface at:
http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html
and select "Join or leave the list" <div>Visit ATEG's web site at
http://ateg.org/
</div></BLOCKQUOTE><BR><p> 
<hr size=1>Be a better friend, newshound, and
know-it-all with Yahoo! Mobile. <a
href="http://us.rd.yahoo.com/evt=51733/*http://mobile.yahoo.com/;_ylt=Ah
u06i
62sR8HDtDypao8Wcj9tAcJ "> Try it now.</a>
To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web
interface
at:
http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html
and select "Join or leave the list"
<p>
Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/
--0-993244150-1203177064=:4183--
------------------------------
Date: Sat, 16 Feb 2008 10:59:35 -0500
From: Jane Saral <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: May and might
------=_Part_2903_4842091.1203177575736
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Content-Disposition: inline
In this morning's Atlanta Journal Costitution is the following head and
subhead:
Study: Slow decisions hurt help for Marines
Tougher truck may have saved troops
I would say that the word *might* should have been used, since they were
not
saved. *May* seems to me appropriate only if they were saved and one is
speculating as to why.
Is that a correct assumption? And could someone explain the differences
between the two forms?
Jane Saral
To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web
interface
at:
http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html
and select "Join or leave the list"
Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/
------=_Part_2903_4842091.1203177575736
Content-Type: text/html; charset=ISO-8859-1
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Content-Disposition: inline
<div>In this morning's Atlanta Journal Costitution is the following
head
and subhead:</div>
<div> </div>
<div>Study: Slow decisions hurt help for Marines</div>
<div>Tougher truck may have saved troops</div>
<div> </div>
<div>I would say that the word <u>might</u> should have been used, since
they were not saved. <u>May</u> seems to me appropriate only if
they
were saved and one is speculating as to why.</div>
<div> </div>
<div>Is that a correct assumption? And could someone explain the
differences between the two forms?</div>
<div> </div>
<div>Jane Saral</div>
To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web
interface
at:
http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html
and select "Join or leave the list"
<p>
Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/
------=_Part_2903_4842091.1203177575736--
------------------------------
Date: Sat, 16 Feb 2008 08:00:16 -0800
From: Carol Morrison <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Re: Text without context
--0-179544075-1203177616=:16047
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit
Sorry! I meant to write the "Benjy" section.
Carol Morrison <[log in to unmask]> wrote: I like Hemingway and
Fitzgerald, but I suppose it's a matter of taste. If you really want to
get
lost in a great example of "text without context," try reading the first
section (often referred to as the 'Benji' section) of Faulkner's The
Sound
and the Fury! I love Faulkner, but that section gave me several
migraines as
I was trying to make sense of it.
Brad Johnston <[log in to unmask]> wrote: Brad,
Here is the first sentence to Hemingway's The Old man and the Sea:
"He
was an old man who fished alone in a skiff in the Gulf Stream and he had
gone eighty-four days now without taking a fish." It starts in past and
shifts to past perfect to discuss a period of time continuing into the
day
the narrative starts. If you look at the whole paragraph, you can see
how he
carries that out in following sentences as well. The point all of us are
trying to make (patiently, I think) is that context matters. ( Indeed it
does - Brad.)
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
From my archives:
[log in to unmask] wrote:
I'd love to see what you would do with A Farewell to Arms (Hemingway)
or
The Great Gatsby (Fitzgerald).
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Date: 28 Jun 2006
From: Brad Johnston [log in to unmask]
Subject: A Farewell to Arms?
To: [log in to unmask]
Not even in the service of enlightened self-interest would I subject
myself to the inane drivel of Ernest Hemingway.
"The man is a jerk." (Source of quote on request, if I can find it.)
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Here it is:
He took a sip of wine and leaned forward. "And you know," he said, "he
(Hemingway) is in fact a remarkable writer. I read one of the stories in
that little book, the one published by Monsieur Forsythe. It concerned
itself with a young man fishing, alone in the Great American Forest. No
dialog, no other characters. Just the young man, and the forest, and the
river, and the fishes. Nothing much of import happens. The young man
walks
through the forest. He arranges a camp for himself. He loses some fish
and
he catches some others. He eats the fish; very simply prepared, of
course.
He sleeps, he awakens. But all this is detailed in a language that is so
powerful, so apparently simple and precise, and yet so evocative that
the
story becomes quite profound. Somehow the reader knows, without the
writer
ever having said so, that the young man has recently returned from the
War
and its many horrors. I was most impressed."
"Why didn't you read the others?"
"Pardon?"
"You said you read one of the stories in the book. Why didn't you read
any
of the others?'
"Ah." He sat back and shrugged. "The man is a jerk."
I laughed.
..............
From "Masquerade", by Walter Satterthwait, c.1998.
---------------------------------
Never miss a thing. Make Yahoo your homepage. To join or leave this
LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web interface at:
http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html and select "Join or leave
the
list" Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/
---------------------------------
Be a better friend, newshound, and know-it-all with Yahoo! Mobile. Try
it
now.
---------------------------------
Looking for last minute shopping deals? Find them fast with Yahoo!
Search.
To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web
interface
at:
http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html
and select "Join or leave the list"
Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/
--0-179544075-1203177616=:16047
Content-Type: text/html; charset=iso-8859-1
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit
Sorry! I meant to write the "Benjy" section. <BR><BR><B><I>Carol
Morrison <[log in to unmask]></I></B> wrote: <BLOCKQUOTE
class=replbq style="PADDING-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; BORDER-LEFT:
#1010ff 2px solid">I like Hemingway and Fitzgerald, but I suppose it's a
matter of taste. If you really want to get lost in a great example of
"text
without context," try reading the first section (often referred to as
the
'Benji' section) of Faulkner's <EM>The Sound and the Fury</EM>! I love
Faulkner, but that section gave me several migraines as I was trying to
make
sense of it.<BR><BR><B><I>Brad Johnston
<[log in to unmask]></I></B>
wrote: <BLOCKQUOTE class=replbq style="PADDING-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-LEFT:
5px; BORDER-LEFT: #1010ff 2px solid"> <DIV><FONT
face=verdana>Brad,<BR> Here is the first sentence to
Hemingway's The Old man and the Sea: "He was an old man who fished
alone in a skiff in the Gulf Stream and he had gone
eighty-four days now without taking a fish." It starts in past and
shifts to past perfect to discuss a period of time continuing into
the
day the narrative starts. If you look at the whole paragraph, you
can
see how he carries that out in following sentences as well. The point
all of
us are trying to make (patiently, I think) is that context
matters. </FONT><FONT face=arial><STRONG>( Indeed it does -
Brad.)</STRONG></FONT></DIV> <DIV><STRONG><FONT
face=arial></FONT></STRONG> </DIV> <DIV> <DIV><STRONG><FONT
face=verdana>~~~~~~~~~~~~~~</FONT><BR><BR>From my
archives:</STRONG></DIV>
<DIV><I><STRONG></STRONG></I> </DIV> <DIV><I><A
href="mailto:[log in to unmask]">[log in to unmask]</A></I> wrote:</DIV>
<DIV><STRONG></STRONG> </DIV> <DIV><STRONG><FONT face=Geneva
color=#000000 FAMILY="SANSSERIF">I'd love to see what you would do with
</FONT><FONT face=Geneva color=#000000 FAMILY="SANSSERIF"><I>A Farewell
to
Arms</I></FONT><FONT
face=Geneva color=#000000 FAMILY="SANSSERIF"> (Hemingway) or
</FONT><FONT
face=Geneva color=#000000 FAMILY="SANSSERIF"><I>The Great
Gatsby</I></FONT><FONT face=Geneva color=#000000 FAMILY="SANSSERIF">
(Fitzgerald). </FONT></STRONG></DIV> <DIV><FONT face=Geneva
color=#000000
FAMILY="SANSSERIF"><STRONG></STRONG></FONT> </DIV><FONT
face=Verdana><STRONG>~~~~~~~~~~~~~~</STRONG></FONT><BR><BR>Date: 28
Jun
2006<BR>From: Brad Johnston <A
href="mailto:[log in to unmask]">[log in to unmask]</A></DIV>
<DIV>Subject: <STRONG>A Farewell to Arms?<BR></STRONG>To: <A
href="mailto:[log in to unmask]">[log in to unmask]</A></DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV><STRONG>Not even in the service of enlightened self-interest
would
I subject myself to the inane drivel of Ernest Hemingway.</STRONG></DIV>
<DIV><STRONG></STRONG> </DIV> <DIV><STRONG>"The man is a jerk."
(Source of quote on request, if I can find it.)</STRONG></DIV>
<DIV><STRONG></STRONG> </DIV>
<DIV><STRONG><FONT
face=Verdana>~~~~~~~~~~~~~~</FONT></STRONG><BR></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Geneva
FAMILY="SANSSERIF"><STRONG></STRONG></FONT> </DIV> <DIV><FONT
face=Geneva FAMILY="SANSSERIF"><STRONG>Here it is:</STRONG></FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Geneva FAMILY="SANSSERIF"></FONT> </DIV><FONT
face=Geneva FAMILY="SANSSERIF"> <DIV><STRONG><FONT face=arial>He took a
sip
of wine and leaned forward. "And you know," he said, "he (Hemingway) is
in
fact a remarkable writer. I read one of the stories in that little book,
the
one published by Monsieur Forsythe. It concerned itself with a young man
fishing, alone in the Great American Forest. No dialog, no other
characters.
Just the young man, and the forest, and the river, and the fishes.
Nothing
much of import happens. The young man walks through the forest. He
arranges
a camp for himself. He loses some fish and he catches some others. He
eats
the fish; very simply prepared, of course. He sleeps, he awakens. But
all this is detailed in a language that is so powerful, so
apparently
simple and precise, and yet so evocative that the story becomes quite
profound. Somehow the reader knows, without the writer ever having said
so,
that the young man has recently returned from the War and its many
horrors.
I was most impressed."<BR><BR>"Why didn't you read the
others?"<BR><BR>"Pardon?"<BR><BR>"You said you read one of the stories
in
the book. Why didn't you read any of the others?'<BR><BR>"Ah." He sat
back
and shrugged. "The man is a jerk."<BR><BR>I
laughed.</FONT></STRONG></DIV>
<DIV><STRONG><FONT face=arial></FONT></STRONG> </DIV>
<DIV><STRONG><FONT face=arial>..............</FONT></STRONG></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=verdana><STRONG></STRONG></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><STRONG><FONT face=arial>From "Masquerade", by Walter
Satterthwait, c.1998.</FONT></STRONG></FONT></DIV> <DIV> <HR SIZE=1>
Never miss a thing. <A
href="http://us.rd.yahoo.com/evt=51438/*http://www.yahoo.com/r/hs">Make
Yahoo your homepage.</A> To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please
visit
the list's web interface at:
http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html
and select "Join or leave the list" <DIV>Visit ATEG's web site at
http://ateg.org/ </DIV></DIV></BLOCKQUOTE><BR> <div> <HR SIZE=1> Be a
better friend, newshound, and know-it-all with Yahoo! Mobile. <A
href="http://us.rd.yahoo.com/evt=51733/*http://mobile.yahoo.com/;_ylt=Ah
u06i
62sR8HDtDypao8Wcj9tAcJ">Try it now.</A></BLOCKQUOTE><BR><p> 
<hr size=1>Looking for last minute shopping deals? <a
href="http://us.rd.yahoo.com/evt=51734/*http://tools.search.yahoo.com/ne
wsea
rch/category.php?category=shopping">
Find them fast with Yahoo! Search.</a>
To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web
interface
at:
http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html
and select "Join or leave the list"
<p>
Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/
--0-179544075-1203177616=:16047--
------------------------------
Date: Sat, 16 Feb 2008 11:17:41 -0500
From: "STAHLKE, HERBERT F" <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Re: May and might
Jane,
That sounds like one you might want to post on the American Dialect =
Society list ADS-L. They follow closely ongoing changes in American =
English. I don't know if this use of "may" is a mistake or a change in
=
progress. I certainly react to it as you did.
Herb
-----Original Message-----
From: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar on behalf of Jane =
Saral
Sent: Sat 2/16/2008 10:59 AM
To: [log in to unmask]
Subject: May and might
=20
In this morning's Atlanta Journal Costitution is the following head and
subhead:
Study: Slow decisions hurt help for Marines
Tougher truck may have saved troops
I would say that the word *might* should have been used, since they were
=
not
saved. *May* seems to me appropriate only if they were saved and one is
speculating as to why.
Is that a correct assumption? And could someone explain the differences
between the two forms?
Jane Saral
To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web =
interface at:
http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html
and select "Join or leave the list"
Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/
To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web
interface
at:
http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html
and select "Join or leave the list"
Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/
------------------------------
Date: Sat, 16 Feb 2008 11:27:36 -0500
From: "STAHLKE, HERBERT F" <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Re: The use of "that"
Whether to use "that" at the beginning of a noun clause or relative =
clause really is, in most cases, a matter of clarity. English has been
=
producing these clauses with and without "that" for a thousand years. =
If you felt the "that" was helpful, then follow your judgment. It often
=
has as much to do with the cadence of a sentence as with clarity, but =
sometimes clarity requires it. But it is a judgment call. Dwight =
Bolinger did a wonderful short study of the use of "that" published as =
_That's that_, and he deals with the omission of "that." He also has a
=
few examples showing that the word is not devoid of meaning. It's more
=
than just a syntactic marker, but the distinction it makes doesn't stand
=
out very often.
It is, of course, an accident of English spelling that the demonstrative
=
"that" and the subordinator "that" are spelled alike. They're two =
different words. That's also an example of a sentence from which I =
would not want to omit the subordinator; it clarifies the structure. In
=
the sentence before it, there's no need for "that" before "it makes."
Herb
-----Original Message-----
From: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar on behalf of Nancy =
Tuten
Sent: Sat 2/16/2008 10:32 AM
To: [log in to unmask]
Subject: Re: The use of "that"
=20
We are having the same conversation right now among the faculty in the
English Department. Our administrative assistant, whom I had asked to
proofread a letter of recommendation, wanted to remove a "that" that I =
felt
was helpful (wish I had that sentence in front of me). So far, the
colleagues who have commented agree that in many cases, the word "that"
makes the sentence far more readable.
One of my colleagues had this to say:=20
I almost want to include a that when it is a subordinate conjunction but
=
not
always a that when it is a relative pronoun used as an object. =20
Ex. 1 I believe that . . . . (subordinate conjunction).=20
Ex. 2 The book I want is on the table (relative pronoun)
I would echo that thought.=20
I eagerly await your replies.
Nancy
=20
Nancy L. Tuten, PhD
Professor of English
Director of the Writing-across-the-Curriculum Program
Columbia College
Columbia, South Carolina
<mailto:[log in to unmask]> [log in to unmask]
803-786-3706
_____ =20
From: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar
[mailto:[log in to unmask]] On Behalf Of Carol Morrison
Sent: Saturday, February 16, 2008 9:39 AM
To: [log in to unmask]
Subject: The use of "that"
=20
As I am reading student essays today, I'm wondering if the use of =
"that,"
which many of the students tend to omit, is necessary in certain
circumstances and what function it serves. For instance:
=20
1) I think that we should go to the grocery store today rather than =
Sunday.
=20
vs.
=20
2) I think we should go to the grocery store today rather than Sunday.
=20
or, a 3rd person example, since the above are more representative of =
speech
than writing:
=20
3) Jean thinks that Genuardi's is a better supermarket than Giant.
=20
vs.
=20
4) Jean thinks Genuardi's is a better supermarket than Giant.
=20
=20
My feeling is that "that" should be in the sentence. Does it function as
=
a
complementizer in the above sentences? (I tend to get confused with =
"that"
clauses).
=20
Thank you!
Carol Morrison
=20
=20
=20
_____ =20
Never miss a thing. Make Yahoo
<http://us.rd.yahoo.com/evt=3D51438/*http:/www.yahoo.com/r/hs> your =
homepage.
To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web =
interface
at: http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html and select "Join or =
leave
the list"=20
Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/=20
To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web =
interface at:
http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html
and select "Join or leave the list"
Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/
To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web
interface
at:
http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html
and select "Join or leave the list"
Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/
------------------------------
Date: Sat, 16 Feb 2008 10:23:53 -0600
From: Carole Hurlbut <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Re: May and might
This is a multi-part message in MIME format.
------=_NextPart_000_00C5_01C87086.075504C0
Content-Type: text/plain;
charset="iso-8859-1"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
My interpretation deals with the probability involved. May would yield a
=
stronger probability while might would express more doubt.
Carole Hurlbut
----- Original Message -----=20
From: Jane Saral=20
To: [log in to unmask]
Sent: Saturday, February 16, 2008 9:59 AM
Subject: May and might
In this morning's Atlanta Journal Costitution is the following head =
and subhead:
Study: Slow decisions hurt help for Marines
Tougher truck may have saved troops
I would say that the word might should have been used, since they were
=
not saved. May seems to me appropriate only if they were saved and one
=
is speculating as to why.
Is that a correct assumption? And could someone explain the =
differences between the two forms?
Jane Saral
To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web =
interface at: http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html and select =
"Join or leave the list"=20
Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/=20
To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web
interface
at:
http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html
and select "Join or leave the list"
Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/
------=_NextPart_000_00C5_01C87086.075504C0
Content-Type: text/html;
charset="iso-8859-1"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
<!DOCTYPE HTML PUBLIC "-//W3C//DTD HTML 4.0 Transitional//EN">
<HTML><HEAD>
<META http-equiv=3DContent-Type content=3D"text/html; =
charset=3Diso-8859-1">
<META content=3D"MSHTML 6.00.6000.16609" name=3DGENERATOR>
<STYLE></STYLE>
</HEAD>
<BODY bgColor=3D#ffffff>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>My interpretation deals with the =
probability=20
involved. <U>May</U> would yield a stronger probability while =
<U>might</U> would=20
express more doubt.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>Carole Hurlbut</FONT></DIV>
<BLOCKQUOTE dir=3Dltr=20
style=3D"PADDING-RIGHT: 0px; PADDING-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; =
BORDER-LEFT: #000000 2px solid; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px">
<DIV style=3D"FONT: 10pt arial">----- Original Message ----- </DIV>
<DIV=20
style=3D"BACKGROUND: #e4e4e4; FONT: 10pt arial; font-color: =
black"><B>From:</B>=20
<A [log in to unmask] =
href=3D"mailto:[log in to unmask]">Jane=20
Saral</A> </DIV>
<DIV style=3D"FONT: 10pt arial"><B>To:</B> <A =
[log in to unmask]
href=3D"mailto:[log in to unmask]">[log in to unmask]</A>
=
</DIV>
<DIV style=3D"FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Sent:</B> Saturday, February 16, =
2008 9:59=20
AM</DIV>
<DIV style=3D"FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Subject:</B> May and might</DIV>
<DIV><BR></DIV>
<DIV>In this morning's Atlanta Journal Costitution is the following =
head and=20
subhead:</DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV>Study: Slow decisions hurt help for Marines</DIV>
<DIV>Tougher truck may have saved troops</DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV>I would say that the word <U>might</U> should have been used, =
since they=20
were not saved. <U>May</U> seems to me appropriate only if they
=
were=20
saved and one is speculating as to why.</DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV>Is that a correct assumption? And could someone explain the
=
differences between the two forms?</DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV>Jane Saral</DIV>To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit
=
the=20
list's web interface at: http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html
=
and=20
select "Join or leave the list"=20
<P>Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/ =
</P></BLOCKQUOTE></BODY></HTML>
To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web
interface
at:
http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html
and select "Join or leave the list"
<p>
Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/
------=_NextPart_000_00C5_01C87086.075504C0--
------------------------------
Date: Sat, 16 Feb 2008 12:54:13 -0500
From: "STAHLKE, HERBERT F" <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Re: May and might
This is a multi-part message in MIME format.
------_=_NextPart_001_01C870C4.F2A5B8BC
Content-Type: text/plain;
charset="US-ASCII"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Carole,
=20
That works for me. I had overlooked the deontic/epistemic contrast in
modals. Your epistemic reading fits.
=20
Herb
=20
From: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar
[mailto:[log in to unmask]] On Behalf Of Carole Hurlbut
Sent: 2008-02-16 11:24
To: [log in to unmask]
Subject: Re: May and might
=20
My interpretation deals with the probability involved. May would yield a
stronger probability while might would express more doubt.
=20
Carole Hurlbut
----- Original Message -----=20
From: Jane Saral <mailto:[log in to unmask]> =20
To: [log in to unmask]
Sent: Saturday, February 16, 2008 9:59 AM
Subject: May and might
=20
In this morning's Atlanta Journal Costitution is the following
head and subhead:
=20
Study: Slow decisions hurt help for Marines
Tougher truck may have saved troops
=20
I would say that the word might should have been used, since
they were not saved. May seems to me appropriate only if they were
saved and one is speculating as to why.
=20
Is that a correct assumption? And could someone explain the
differences between the two forms?
=20
Jane Saral
To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web
interface at: http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html and select
"Join or leave the list"=20
Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/=20
To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web
interface at: http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html and select
"Join or leave the list"=20
Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/=20
To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web
interface
at:
http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html
and select "Join or leave the list"
Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/
------_=_NextPart_001_01C870C4.F2A5B8BC
Content-Type: text/html;
charset="US-ASCII"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
<html xmlns:v=3D"urn:schemas-microsoft-com:vml" =
xmlns:o=3D"urn:schemas-microsoft-com:office:office" =
xmlns:w=3D"urn:schemas-microsoft-com:office:word" =
xmlns:m=3D"http://schemas.microsoft.com/office/2004/12/omml" =
xmlns=3D"http://www.w3.org/TR/REC-html40">
<head>
<META HTTP-EQUIV=3D"Content-Type" CONTENT=3D"text/html; =
charset=3Dus-ascii">
<meta name=3DGenerator content=3D"Microsoft Word 12 (filtered medium)">
<style>
<!--
/* Font Definitions */
@font-face
{font-family:"Cambria Math";
panose-1:2 4 5 3 5 4 6 3 2 4;}
@font-face
{font-family:Calibri;
panose-1:2 15 5 2 2 2 4 3 2 4;}
@font-face
{font-family:Tahoma;
panose-1:2 11 6 4 3 5 4 4 2 4;}
/* Style Definitions */
p.MsoNormal, li.MsoNormal, div.MsoNormal
{margin:0in;
margin-bottom:.0001pt;
font-size:12.0pt;
font-family:"Times New Roman","serif";}
a:link, span.MsoHyperlink
{mso-style-priority:99;
color:blue;
text-decoration:underline;}
a:visited, span.MsoHyperlinkFollowed
{mso-style-priority:99;
color:purple;
text-decoration:underline;}
p
{mso-style-priority:99;
mso-margin-top-alt:auto;
margin-right:0in;
mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto;
margin-left:0in;
font-size:12.0pt;
font-family:"Times New Roman","serif";}
span.EmailStyle18
{mso-style-type:personal-reply;
font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";
color:#1F497D;}
.MsoChpDefault
{mso-style-type:export-only;
font-size:10.0pt;}
@page Section1
{size:8.5in 11.0in;
margin:1.0in 1.0in 1.0in 1.0in;}
div.Section1
{page:Section1;}
-->
</style>
<!--[if gte mso 9]><xml>
<o:shapedefaults v:ext=3D"edit" spidmax=3D"1026" />
</xml><![endif]--><!--[if gte mso 9]><xml>
<o:shapelayout v:ext=3D"edit">
<o:idmap v:ext=3D"edit" data=3D"1" />
</o:shapelayout></xml><![endif]-->
</head>
<body bgcolor=3Dwhite lang=3DEN-US link=3Dblue vlink=3Dpurple>
<div class=3DSection1>
<p class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";
color:#1F497D'>Carole,<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";
color:#1F497D'><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";
color:#1F497D'>That works for me. I had overlooked the =
deontic/epistemic
contrast in modals. Your epistemic reading =
fits.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";
color:#1F497D'><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";
color:#1F497D'>Herb<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";
color:#1F497D'><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<div>
<div style=3D'border:none;border-top:solid #B5C4DF 1.0pt;padding:3.0pt =
0in 0in 0in'>
<p class=3DMsoNormal><b><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"'>From:</span
>=
</b><span
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"'> Assembly =
for the
Teaching of English Grammar [mailto:[log in to unmask]] <b>On =
Behalf Of </b>Carole
Hurlbut<br>
<b>Sent:</b> 2008-02-16 11:24<br>
<b>To:</b> [log in to unmask]<br>
<b>Subject:</b> Re: May and might<o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
</div>
<p class=3DMsoNormal><o:p> </o:p></p>
<div>
<p class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif"'>My
interpretation deals with the probability involved. <u>May</u> would =
yield a
stronger probability while <u>might</u> would express more =
doubt.</span><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3DMsoNormal> <o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif"'>Carole
Hurlbut</span><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<blockquote style=3D'border:none;border-left:solid black =
1.5pt;padding:0in 0in 0in 4.0pt;
margin-left:3.75pt;margin-top:5.0pt;margin-right:0in;margin-bottom:5.0pt
'=
>
<div>
<p class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif"'>-----
Original Message ----- <o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3DMsoNormal style=3D'background:#E4E4E4'><b><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;
font-family:"Arial","sans-serif"'>From:</span></b><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;
font-family:"Arial","sans-serif"'> <a =
href=3D"mailto:[log in to unmask]"
title=3D"[log in to unmask]">Jane Saral</a> <o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3DMsoNormal><b><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif"'>To:</span></
b=
><span
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif"'> <a
href=3D"mailto:[log in to unmask]" =
title=3D"[log in to unmask]">[log in to unmask]</a>
<o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3DMsoNormal><b><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif"'>Sent:</span>
<=
/b><span
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif"'> Saturday, =
February
16, 2008 9:59 AM<o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3DMsoNormal><b><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif"'>Subject:</sp
a=
n></b><span
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif"'> May and =
might<o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3DMsoNormal><o:p> </o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3DMsoNormal>In this morning's Atlanta Journal Costitution is =
the
following head and subhead:<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3DMsoNormal> <o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3DMsoNormal>Study: Slow decisions hurt help for =
Marines<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3DMsoNormal>Tougher truck may have saved troops<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3DMsoNormal> <o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3DMsoNormal>I would say that the word <u>might</u> should have
=
been
used, since they were not saved. <u>May</u> seems to me =
appropriate only
if they were saved and one is speculating as to why.<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3DMsoNormal> <o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3DMsoNormal>Is that a correct assumption? And could =
someone
explain the differences between the two forms?<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3DMsoNormal> <o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3DMsoNormal>Jane Saral<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<p class=3DMsoNormal>To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit =
the list's
web interface at: http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html and =
select "Join
or leave the list" <o:p></o:p></p>
<p>Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/ <o:p></o:p></p>
</blockquote>
<p class=3DMsoNormal>To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit =
the list's
web interface at: http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html and =
select
"Join or leave the list" <o:p></o:p></p>
<p>Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/ <o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
</body>
</html>
To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web
interface
at:
http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html
and select "Join or leave the list"
<p>
Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/
------_=_NextPart_001_01C870C4.F2A5B8BC--
------------------------------
Date: Sat, 16 Feb 2008 14:05:52 -0500
From: Jane Saral <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Re: May and might
------=_Part_3573_30251225.1203188752488
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=WINDOWS-1252
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Content-Disposition: inline
So I have been doing some reading on the terms epistemic and deontic,
and I
understand them for the present and future, but for the past tense, I
prefe=
r
the following (found on Bartleby.com):
Kenneth G. Wilson (1923=96). The Columbia Guide to Standard American
English. 1993. may, might (*auxs.*) For events in the present or
immediate future, use either *may* or *might* (*I may* [*might*] *decide
to
go after all*), but for past time, most Standard users still prefer only
*
might,* as in *Yesterday I might have decided to stay home,* not the
increasingly encountered *Yesterday I may have decided to stay
home.*Journalese is now peppered with
*may* where until recently *might* has been solidly entrenched. See also
CA=
N
(1) <http://www.bartleby.com/68/95/1095.html>;
COULD<http://www.bartleby.com/68/27/1527.html>;
SEQUENCE OF TENSES <http://www.bartleby.com/68/97/5397.html>.
Jane Saral
On Feb 16, 2008 12:54 PM, STAHLKE, HERBERT F <[log in to unmask]> wrote:
> Carole,
>
>
>
> That works for me. I had overlooked the deontic/epistemic contrast in
> modals. Your epistemic reading fits.
>
>
>
> Herb
>
>
>
> *From:* Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar [mailto:
> [log in to unmask]] *On Behalf Of *Carole Hurlbut
> *Sent:* 2008-02-16 11:24
> *To:* [log in to unmask]
> *Subject:* Re: May and might
>
>
>
> My interpretation deals with the probability involved. *May* would
yield =
a
> stronger probability while *might* would express more doubt.
>
>
>
> Carole Hurlbut
>
> ----- Original Message -----
>
> *From:* Jane Saral <[log in to unmask]>
>
> *To:* [log in to unmask]
>
> *Sent:* Saturday, February 16, 2008 9:59 AM
>
> *Subject:* May and might
>
>
>
> In this morning's Atlanta Journal Costitution is the following head
and
> subhead:
>
>
>
> Study: Slow decisions hurt help for Marines
>
> Tougher truck may have saved troops
>
>
>
> I would say that the word *might* should have been used, since they
were
> not saved. *May* seems to me appropriate only if they were saved and
one
> is speculating as to why.
>
>
>
> Is that a correct assumption? And could someone explain the
differences
> between the two forms?
>
>
>
> Jane Saral
>
> To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web
interfac=
e
> at: http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html and select "Join or
> leave the list"
>
> Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/
>
> To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web
interfac=
e
> at: http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html and select "Join or
> leave the list"
>
> Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/
> To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web
> interface at: http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html and select
> "Join or leave the list"
>
> Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/
>
To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web
interface
at:
http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html
and select "Join or leave the list"
Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/
------=_Part_3573_30251225.1203188752488
Content-Type: text/html; charset=WINDOWS-1252
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Content-Disposition: inline
<div>So I have been doing some reading on the terms epistemic and
deontic, =
and I understand them for the present and future, but for the
pas=
t tense, I prefer the following (found on <a
href=3D"http://Bartleby.com">B=
artleby.com</a>):</div>
<div>
<table cellspacing=3D"2" cellpadding=3D"0" width=3D"601"
align=3D"center" b=
gcolor=3D"#ffffff" border=3D"0">
<tbody>
<tr>
<td align=3D"middle">Kenneth G. Wilson <font
size=3D"-1">(1923=96).</f=
ont> The Columbia Guide to Standard American
English.  =
;<font size=3D"-1">1993.</font></td></tr>
<tr>
<td> </td></tr>
<tr>
<td align=3D"middle"><font color=3D"#9c9c63" size=3D"+1">may, might
(<i>aux=
s.</i>)</font></td></tr>
<tr>
<td> </td></tr></tbody></table>
<table cellspacing=3D"0" cellpadding=3D"3" width=3D"601"
align=3D"center" b=
gcolor=3D"#ffffff" border=3D"0">
<tbody>
<tr>
<td> </td></tr>
<tr>
<td>For events in the present or immediate future, use either <i>may</i>
or=
<i>might</i> (<i>I may</i> [<i>might</i>] <i>decide to go after
all</i>), =
but for past time, most Standard users still prefer only <i>might,</i>
as i=
n <i>Yesterday I might have decided to stay home,</i> not the
increasingly =
encountered <i>Yesterday I may have decided to stay home.</i> Journalese
is=
now peppered with <i>may</i> where until recently <i>might</i> has been
so=
lidly entrenched. See also <font size=3D"-1"><a
href=3D"http://www.bartleby=
.com/68/95/1095.html">CAN (1)</a></font>; <font size=3D"-1"><a
href=3D"http=
://www.bartleby.com/68/27/1527.html">COULD</a></font>; <font
size=3D"-1"><a=
href=3D"http://www.bartleby.com/68/97/5397.html">SEQUENCE OF
TENSES</a></f=
ont>.</td>
</tr></tbody></table></div>
<div> </div>
<div>Jane Saral<br><br></div>
<div class=3D"gmail_quote">On Feb 16, 2008 12:54 PM, STAHLKE, HERBERT F
<=
;<a href=3D"mailto:[log in to unmask]">[log in to unmask]</a>> wrote:<br>
<blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"PADDING-LEFT: 1ex; MARGIN:
0px 0=
px 0px 0.8ex; BORDER-LEFT: #ccc 1px solid">
<div lang=3D"EN-US" vlink=3D"purple" link=3D"blue" bgcolor=3D"white">
<div>
<p><span style=3D"FONT-SIZE: 11pt; COLOR: #1f497d">Carole,</span></p>
<p><span style=3D"FONT-SIZE: 11pt; COLOR: #1f497d"> </span></p>
<p><span style=3D"FONT-SIZE: 11pt; COLOR: #1f497d">That works for
me. =
I had overlooked the deontic/epistemic contrast in modals. Your
epis=
temic reading fits.</span></p>
<p><span style=3D"FONT-SIZE: 11pt; COLOR: #1f497d"> </span></p>
<p><span style=3D"FONT-SIZE: 11pt; COLOR: #1f497d">Herb</span></p>
<p><span style=3D"FONT-SIZE: 11pt; COLOR: #1f497d"> </span></p>
<div>
<div style=3D"BORDER-RIGHT: medium none; PADDING-RIGHT: 0in; BORDER-TOP:
#b=
5c4df 1pt solid; PADDING-LEFT: 0in; PADDING-BOTTOM: 0in; BORDER-LEFT:
mediu=
m none; PADDING-TOP: 3pt; BORDER-BOTTOM: medium none">
<p><b><span style=3D"FONT-SIZE: 10pt">From:</span></b><span
style=3D"FONT-S=
IZE: 10pt"> Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar [mailto:<a
href=3D=
"mailto:[log in to unmask]"
target=3D"_blank">[log in to unmask]
U</a>] <b>On Behalf Of </b>Carole Hurlbut<br>
<b>Sent:</b> 2008-02-16 11:24=20
<div class=3D"Ih2E3d"><br><b>To:</b> <a
href=3D"mailto:[log in to unmask]
.EDU"
target=3D"_blank">[log in to unmask]</a><br></div><b>Subject:</=
b> Re: May and might</span>=20
<p></p></p></div></div>
<div class=3D"Ih2E3d">
<p> </p>
<div>
<p><span style=3D"FONT-SIZE: 10pt">My interpretation deals with the
probabi=
lity involved. <u>May</u> would yield a stronger probability while
<u>might=
</u> would express more doubt.</span></p></div>
<div>
<p> </p></div>
<div>
<p><span style=3D"FONT-SIZE: 10pt">Carole Hurlbut</span></p></div>
<blockquote style=3D"BORDER-RIGHT: medium none; PADDING-RIGHT: 0in;
BORDER-=
TOP: medium none; PADDING-LEFT: 4pt; PADDING-BOTTOM: 0in; MARGIN: 5pt
0in 5=
pt 3.75pt; BORDER-LEFT: black 1.5pt solid; PADDING-TOP: 0in;
BORDER-BOTTOM:=
medium none">
<div>
<p><span style=3D"FONT-SIZE: 10pt">----- Original Message -----
</span></p>=
</div>
<div>
<p style=3D"BACKGROUND: #e4e4e4"><b><span style=3D"FONT-SIZE:
10pt">From:</=
span></b><span style=3D"FONT-SIZE: 10pt"> <a
title=3D"[log in to unmask]"=
href=3D"mailto:[log in to unmask]" target=3D"_blank">Jane Saral</a>
</sp=
an></p>
</div>
<div>
<p><b><span style=3D"FONT-SIZE: 10pt">To:</span></b><span
style=3D"FONT-SIZ=
E: 10pt"> <a title=3D"[log in to unmask]"
href=3D"mailto:ATEG@LISTSER=
V.MUOHIO.EDU" target=3D"_blank">[log in to unmask]</a>
</span></p></d=
iv>
<div>
<p><b><span style=3D"FONT-SIZE: 10pt">Sent:</span></b><span
style=3D"FONT-S=
IZE: 10pt"> Saturday, February 16, 2008 9:59 AM</span></p></div>
<div>
<p><b><span style=3D"FONT-SIZE: 10pt">Subject:</span></b><span
style=3D"FON=
T-SIZE: 10pt"> May and might</span></p></div>
<div>
<p> </p></div>
<div>
<p>In this morning's Atlanta Journal Costitution is the following
head =
and subhead:</p></div>
<div>
<p> </p></div>
<div>
<p>Study: Slow decisions hurt help for Marines</p></div>
<div>
<p>Tougher truck may have saved troops</p></div>
<div>
<p> </p></div>
<div>
<p>I would say that the word <u>might</u> should have been used, since
they=
were not saved. <u>May</u> seems to me appropriate only if they
were=
saved and one is speculating as to why.</p></div>
<div>
<p> </p></div>
<div>
<p>Is that a correct assumption? And could someone explain the
differ=
ences between the two forms?</p></div>
<div>
<p> </p></div>
<div>
<p>Jane Saral</p></div>
<p>To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web
int=
erface at: <a href=3D"http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html"
target=
=3D"_blank">http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html</a> and select
&q=
uot;Join or leave the list" </p>
<p>Visit ATEG's web site at <a href=3D"http://ateg.org/"
target=3D"_bla=
nk">http://ateg.org/</a> </p></blockquote>
<p>To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web
int=
erface at: <a href=3D"http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html"
target=
=3D"_blank">http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html</a> and select
&q=
uot;Join or leave the list" </p>
<p>Visit ATEG's web site at <a href=3D"http://ateg.org/"
target=3D"_bla=
nk">http://ateg.org/</a> </p></div></div></div>
<div>
<div></div>
<div class=3D"Wj3C7c">To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit
the=
list's web interface at: <a
href=3D"http://listserv.muohio.edu/archive=
s/ateg.html"
target=3D"_blank">http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.htm=
l</a> and select "Join or leave the list"=20
<p>Visit ATEG's web site at <a href=3D"http://ateg.org/"
target=3D"_bla=
nk">http://ateg.org/</a> </p></div></div></blockquote></div><br>
To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web
interface
at:
http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html
and select "Join or leave the list"
<p>
Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/
------=_Part_3573_30251225.1203188752488--
------------------------------
Date: Sat, 16 Feb 2008 14:54:29 -0500
From: "STAHLKE, HERBERT F" <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Re: May and might
This is a multi-part message in MIME format.
------_=_NextPart_001_01C870D5.BF77C784
Content-Type: text/plain;
charset="US-ASCII"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Jane,
=20
The question is how independent may and might have become from each
other. The pairs may/might, will/would, shall/should, can/could
represent historical present/past contrasts, but that meaning/form
difference goes back to Old English and is largely lost in Modern
English, although under sequence of tenses conditions it may still show
up. However, the sequence of tenses rules are a lot looser than people
tend to think, perhaps part of the question involved in Brad's survey,
and whether one follows them in a particular instance depends on other
factors than tense. But this gets to be a complex and messy subject
very quickly, and before plunging into it I want to look at a couple of
grammars.
=20
Herb
=20
From: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar
[mailto:[log in to unmask]] On Behalf Of Jane Saral
Sent: 2008-02-16 14:06
To: [log in to unmask]
Subject: Re: May and might
=20
So I have been doing some reading on the terms epistemic and deontic,
and I understand them for the present and future, but for the past
tense, I prefer the following (found on Bartleby.com):
Kenneth G. Wilson (1923-). The Columbia Guide to Standard American
English. 1993.
=20
may, might (auxs.)
=20
=20
=20
For events in the present or immediate future, use either may or might
(I may [might] decide to go after all), but for past time, most Standard
users still prefer only might, as in Yesterday I might have decided to
stay home, not the increasingly encountered Yesterday I may have decided
to stay home. Journalese is now peppered with may where until recently
might has been solidly entrenched. See also CAN (1)
<http://www.bartleby.com/68/95/1095.html> ; COULD
<http://www.bartleby.com/68/27/1527.html> ; SEQUENCE OF TENSES
<http://www.bartleby.com/68/97/5397.html> .
=20
Jane Saral
On Feb 16, 2008 12:54 PM, STAHLKE, HERBERT F <[log in to unmask]> wrote:
Carole,
=20
That works for me. I had overlooked the deontic/epistemic contrast in
modals. Your epistemic reading fits.
=20
Herb
=20
From: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar
[mailto:[log in to unmask]] On Behalf Of Carole Hurlbut
Sent: 2008-02-16 11:24=20
To: [log in to unmask]
Subject: Re: May and might=20
=20
My interpretation deals with the probability involved. May would yield a
stronger probability while might would express more doubt.
=20
Carole Hurlbut
----- Original Message -----=20
From: Jane Saral <mailto:[log in to unmask]> =20
To: [log in to unmask]
Sent: Saturday, February 16, 2008 9:59 AM
Subject: May and might
=20
In this morning's Atlanta Journal Costitution is the following
head and subhead:
=20
Study: Slow decisions hurt help for Marines
Tougher truck may have saved troops
=20
I would say that the word might should have been used, since
they were not saved. May seems to me appropriate only if they were
saved and one is speculating as to why.
=20
Is that a correct assumption? And could someone explain the
differences between the two forms?
=20
Jane Saral
To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web
interface at: http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html and select
"Join or leave the list"=20
Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/=20
To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web
interface at: http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html and select
"Join or leave the list"=20
Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/=20
To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web
interface at: http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html and select
"Join or leave the list"=20
Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/=20
To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web
interface at: http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html and select
"Join or leave the list"=20
Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/=20
To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web
interface
at:
http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html
and select "Join or leave the list"
Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/
------_=_NextPart_001_01C870D5.BF77C784
Content-Type: text/html;
charset="US-ASCII"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
<html xmlns:v=3D"urn:schemas-microsoft-com:vml" =
xmlns:o=3D"urn:schemas-microsoft-com:office:office" =
xmlns:w=3D"urn:schemas-microsoft-com:office:word" =
xmlns:m=3D"http://schemas.microsoft.com/office/2004/12/omml" =
xmlns=3D"http://www.w3.org/TR/REC-html40">
<head>
<meta http-equiv=3DContent-Type content=3D"text/html; =
charset=3Dus-ascii">
<meta name=3DGenerator content=3D"Microsoft Word 12 (filtered medium)">
<style>
<!--
/* Font Definitions */
@font-face
{font-family:"Cambria Math";
panose-1:2 4 5 3 5 4 6 3 2 4;}
@font-face
{font-family:Calibri;
panose-1:2 15 5 2 2 2 4 3 2 4;}
@font-face
{font-family:Tahoma;
panose-1:2 11 6 4 3 5 4 4 2 4;}
/* Style Definitions */
p.MsoNormal, li.MsoNormal, div.MsoNormal
{margin:0in;
margin-bottom:.0001pt;
font-size:12.0pt;
font-family:"Times New Roman","serif";}
a:link, span.MsoHyperlink
{mso-style-priority:99;
color:blue;
text-decoration:underline;}
a:visited, span.MsoHyperlinkFollowed
{mso-style-priority:99;
color:purple;
text-decoration:underline;}
p
{mso-style-priority:99;
mso-margin-top-alt:auto;
margin-right:0in;
mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto;
margin-left:0in;
font-size:12.0pt;
font-family:"Times New Roman","serif";}
span.EmailStyle18
{mso-style-type:personal-reply;
font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";
color:#1F497D;}
.MsoChpDefault
{mso-style-type:export-only;}
@page Section1
{size:8.5in 11.0in;
margin:1.0in 1.0in 1.0in 1.0in;}
div.Section1
{page:Section1;}
-->
</style>
<!--[if gte mso 9]><xml>
<o:shapedefaults v:ext=3D"edit" spidmax=3D"1026" />
</xml><![endif]--><!--[if gte mso 9]><xml>
<o:shapelayout v:ext=3D"edit">
<o:idmap v:ext=3D"edit" data=3D"1" />
</o:shapelayout></xml><![endif]-->
</head>
<body lang=3DEN-US link=3Dblue vlink=3Dpurple>
<div class=3DSection1>
<p class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";
color:#1F497D'>Jane,<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";
color:#1F497D'><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";
color:#1F497D'>The question is how independent may and might have become
=
from
each other. The pairs may/might, will/would, shall/should, =
can/could
represent historical present/past contrasts, but that meaning/form =
difference goes
back to Old English and is largely lost in Modern English, although =
under
sequence of tenses conditions it may still show up. However, the =
sequence
of tenses rules are a lot looser than people tend to think, perhaps part
=
of the
question involved in Brad’s survey, and whether one follows them =
in a
particular instance depends on other factors than tense. But this
=
gets to
be a complex and messy subject very quickly, and before plunging into it
=
I want
to look at a couple of grammars.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";
color:#1F497D'><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";
color:#1F497D'>Herb<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";
color:#1F497D'><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<div style=3D'border:none;border-top:solid #B5C4DF 1.0pt;padding:3.0pt =
0in 0in 0in'>
<p class=3DMsoNormal><b><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"'>From:</span
>=
</b><span
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"'> Assembly =
for the
Teaching of English Grammar [mailto:[log in to unmask]] <b>On =
Behalf Of </b>Jane
Saral<br>
<b>Sent:</b> 2008-02-16 14:06<br>
<b>To:</b> [log in to unmask]<br>
<b>Subject:</b> Re: May and might<o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<p class=3DMsoNormal><o:p> </o:p></p>
<div>
<p class=3DMsoNormal>So I have been doing some reading on the terms =
epistemic and
deontic, and I understand them for the present and future, but
=
for
the past tense, I prefer the following (found on <a =
href=3D"http://Bartleby.com">Bartleby.com</a>):<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<div align=3Dcenter>
<table class=3DMsoNormalTable border=3D0 cellpadding=3D0 width=3D601 =
style=3D'width:450.75pt;
background:white'>
<tr>
<td style=3D'padding:0in 0in 0in 0in'>
<p class=3DMsoNormal align=3Dcenter =
style=3D'text-align:center'>Kenneth G.
Wilson <span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt'>(1923–).</span> The
Columbia Guide to Standard American English. <span
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt'>1993.</span><o:p></o:p></p>
</td>
</tr>
<tr>
<td style=3D'padding:0in 0in 0in 0in'>
<p class=3DMsoNormal> <o:p></o:p></p>
</td>
</tr>
<tr>
<td style=3D'padding:0in 0in 0in 0in'>
<p class=3DMsoNormal align=3Dcenter style=3D'text-align:center'><span
style=3D'font-size:13.5pt;color:#9C9C63'>may, might =
(<i>auxs.</i>)</span><o:p></o:p></p>
</td>
</tr>
<tr>
<td style=3D'padding:0in 0in 0in 0in'>
<p class=3DMsoNormal> <o:p></o:p></p>
</td>
</tr>
</table>
</div>
<p class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'display:none'><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<div align=3Dcenter>
<table class=3DMsoNormalTable border=3D0 cellspacing=3D0 cellpadding=3D0
=
width=3D601
style=3D'width:450.75pt;background:white'>
<tr>
<td style=3D'padding:2.25pt 2.25pt 2.25pt 2.25pt'>
<p class=3DMsoNormal> <o:p></o:p></p>
</td>
</tr>
<tr>
<td style=3D'padding:2.25pt 2.25pt 2.25pt 2.25pt'>
<p class=3DMsoNormal>For events in the present or immediate future, =
use either <i>may</i>
or <i>might</i> (<i>I may</i> [<i>might</i>] <i>decide to go after =
all</i>),
but for past time, most Standard users still prefer only <i>might,</i>
=
as in <i>Yesterday
I might have decided to stay home,</i> not the increasingly =
encountered <i>Yesterday
I may have decided to stay home.</i> Journalese is now peppered with =
<i>may</i>
where until recently <i>might</i> has been solidly entrenched. See =
also <span
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt'><a =
href=3D"http://www.bartleby.com/68/95/1095.html">CAN
(1)</a></span>; <span style=3D'font-size:10.0pt'><a
href=3D"http://www.bartleby.com/68/27/1527.html">COULD</a></span>; =
<span
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt'><a =
href=3D"http://www.bartleby.com/68/97/5397.html">SEQUENCE
OF TENSES</a></span>.<o:p></o:p></p>
</td>
</tr>
</table>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3DMsoNormal> <o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3DMsoNormal style=3D'margin-bottom:12.0pt'>Jane =
Saral<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3DMsoNormal>On Feb 16, 2008 12:54 PM, STAHLKE, HERBERT F <<a
href=3D"mailto:[log in to unmask]">[log in to unmask]</a>> =
wrote:<o:p></o:p></p>
<div>
<div>
<p><span =
style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;color:#1F497D'>Carole,</span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p><span =
style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;color:#1F497D'> </span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p><span style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;color:#1F497D'>That works for =
me. I had
overlooked the deontic/epistemic contrast in modals. Your =
epistemic
reading fits.</span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p><span =
style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;color:#1F497D'> </span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p><span =
style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;color:#1F497D'>Herb</span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p><span =
style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;color:#1F497D'> </span><o:p></o:p></p>
<div>
<div style=3D'border:none;border-top:solid #B5C4DF 1.0pt;padding:3.0pt =
0in 0in 0in'>
<p><b><span style=3D'font-size:10.0pt'>From:</span></b><span =
style=3D'font-size:
10.0pt'> Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar [mailto:<a
href=3D"mailto:[log in to unmask]" =
target=3D"_blank">[log in to unmask]</a>]
<b>On Behalf Of </b>Carole Hurlbut<br>
<b>Sent:</b> 2008-02-16 11:24 <o:p></o:p></span></p>
<div>
<p class=3DMsoNormal><span style=3D'font-size:10.0pt'><br>
<b>To:</b> <a href=3D"mailto:[log in to unmask]" =
target=3D"_blank">[log in to unmask]</a><o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<p class=3DMsoNormal><b><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt'>Subject:</span></b><span
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt'> Re: May and might</span> <o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<p> <o:p></o:p></p>
<div>
<p><span style=3D'font-size:10.0pt'>My interpretation deals with the =
probability
involved. <u>May</u> would yield a stronger probability while =
<u>might</u>
would express more doubt.</span><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p> <o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p><span style=3D'font-size:10.0pt'>Carole Hurlbut</span><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<blockquote style=3D'border:none;border-left:solid black =
1.5pt;padding:0in 0in 0in 4.0pt;
margin-left:3.75pt;margin-top:5.0pt;margin-right:0in;margin-bottom:5.0pt
'=
>
<div>
<p><span style=3D'font-size:10.0pt'>----- Original Message ----- =
</span><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p style=3D'background:#E4E4E4'><b><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt'>From:</span></b><span
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt'> <a href=3D"mailto:[log in to unmask]" =
target=3D"_blank"
title=3D"[log in to unmask]">Jane Saral</a> </span><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p><b><span style=3D'font-size:10.0pt'>To:</span></b><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt'>
<a href=3D"mailto:[log in to unmask]" target=3D"_blank"
title=3D"[log in to unmask]">[log in to unmask]</a> =
</span><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p><b><span style=3D'font-size:10.0pt'>Sent:</span></b><span =
style=3D'font-size:
10.0pt'> Saturday, February 16, 2008 9:59 AM</span><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p><b><span style=3D'font-size:10.0pt'>Subject:</span></b><span =
style=3D'font-size:
10.0pt'> May and might</span><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p> <o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p>In this morning's Atlanta Journal Costitution is the following head =
and
subhead:<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p> <o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p>Study: Slow decisions hurt help for Marines<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p>Tougher truck may have saved troops<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p> <o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p>I would say that the word <u>might</u> should have been used, since =
they were
not saved. <u>May</u> seems to me appropriate only if they were =
saved and
one is speculating as to why.<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p> <o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p>Is that a correct assumption? And could someone explain the
differences between the two forms?<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p> <o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p>Jane Saral<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<p>To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web =
interface
at: <a href=3D"http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html" =
target=3D"_blank">http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html</a>
and select "Join or leave the list" <o:p></o:p></p>
<p>Visit ATEG's web site at <a href=3D"http://ateg.org/" =
target=3D"_blank">http://ateg.org/</a>
<o:p></o:p></p>
</blockquote>
<p>To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web =
interface
at: <a href=3D"http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html" =
target=3D"_blank">http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html</a>
and select "Join or leave the list" <o:p></o:p></p>
<p>Visit ATEG's web site at <a href=3D"http://ateg.org/" =
target=3D"_blank">http://ateg.org/</a>
<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<p class=3DMsoNormal>To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit =
the list's
web interface at: <a =
href=3D"http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html"
target=3D"_blank">http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html</a> and
=
select
"Join or leave the list" <o:p></o:p></p>
<p>Visit ATEG's web site at <a href=3D"http://ateg.org/" =
target=3D"_blank">http://ateg.org/</a>
<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
</div>
</div>
<p class=3DMsoNormal><br>
To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web =
interface at:
http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html and select "Join or =
leave
the list" <o:p></o:p></p>
<p>Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/ <o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
</body>
</html>
To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web
interface
at:
http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html
and select "Join or leave the list"
<p>
Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/
------_=_NextPart_001_01C870D5.BF77C784--
------------------------------
Date: Sat, 16 Feb 2008 17:26:47 -0800
From: Johanna Rubba <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Re: The use of "that"
"That" can be omitted when it precedes a clause that is the direct
object of the verb, but not in other cases -- except for the verb
"hate", it seems -- for me, the "hate" example without "that" is
ungrammatical. Hmm.
Dr. Johanna Rubba, Ph. D.
Associate Professor, Linguistics
Linguistics Minor Advisor
English Dept.
Cal Poly State University San Luis Obispo
San Luis Obispo, CA 93407
Ofc. tel. : 805-756-2184
Dept. tel.: 805-756-2596
Dept. fax: 805-756-6374
E-mail: [log in to unmask]
URL: cla.calpoly.edu/~jrubba
To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web
interface
at:
http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html
and select "Join or leave the list"
Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/
------------------------------
Date: Sat, 16 Feb 2008 20:51:59 -0500
From: "STAHLKE, HERBERT F" <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Re: The use of "that"
Nancy,
You're first example is bad for the same reason that=20
That's the man met me at the airport.
is wrong. There is a position that Fred fills that's required by =
"hate," and so when you get to isn't you run into a parsing problem. A
=
verb like "know" more readily anticipates a clause, so=20
Mary knows Fred isn't coming to the party.
doesn't have the same problem, even though you can say "Mary knows =
Fred."
Herb=20
-----Original Message-----
From: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar on behalf of Nancy =
Tuten
Sent: Sat 2/16/2008 10:39 AM
To: [log in to unmask]
Subject: Re: The use of "that"
=20
How about in these examples?
=20
Molly hates Fred isn't coming to the party.
Molly hates that Fred isn't coming to the party.
=20
I would argue that the reader gets to the word "isn't" and realizes that
perhaps the thought that "Molly hates Fred" isn't what the writer =
intended.
The reader then has to start over and rethink the sentence. It seems to
=
me
that it is the writer's job to keep the reader from doing that extra =
work.
=20
There is no doubt that the word "that" is unnecessary in many cases.
However, when I train in the business world and when I teach in the =
college
classroom, I run into a lot of people who have been told to remove all =
their
"thats." I argue that they should decide on a case-by-case basis.
=20
Nancy
=20
Nancy L. Tuten, PhD
Professor of English
Director of the Writing-across-the-Curriculum Program
Columbia College
Columbia, South Carolina
<mailto:[log in to unmask]> [log in to unmask]
803-786-3706
_____ =20
From: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar
[mailto:[log in to unmask]] On Behalf Of Carol Morrison
Sent: Saturday, February 16, 2008 9:39 AM
To: [log in to unmask]
Subject: The use of "that"
=20
As I am reading student essays today, I'm wondering if the use of =
"that,"
which many of the students tend to omit, is necessary in certain
circumstances and what function it serves. For instance:
=20
1) I think that we should go to the grocery store today rather than =
Sunday.
=20
vs.
=20
2) I think we should go to the grocery store today rather than Sunday.
=20
or, a 3rd person example, since the above are more representative of =
speech
than writing:
=20
3) Jean thinks that Genuardi's is a better supermarket than Giant.
=20
vs.
=20
4) Jean thinks Genuardi's is a better supermarket than Giant.
=20
=20
My feeling is that "that" should be in the sentence. Does it function as
=
a
complementizer in the above sentences? (I tend to get confused with =
"that"
clauses).
=20
Thank you!
Carol Morrison
=20
=20
=20
_____ =20
Never miss a thing. Make Yahoo
<http://us.rd.yahoo.com/evt=3D51438/*http:/www.yahoo.com/r/hs> your =
homepage.
To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web =
interface
at: http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html and select "Join or =
leave
the list"=20
Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/=20
To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web =
interface at:
http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html
and select "Join or leave the list"
Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/
To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web
interface
at:
http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html
and select "Join or leave the list"
Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/
------------------------------
Date: Sat, 16 Feb 2008 20:55:18 -0500
From: "STAHLKE, HERBERT F" <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Re: The use of "that"
I wonder if it has to do with the animacy hierarchy: humans > domestic
=
animals > mammals > non-mammals > inanimates. Emotion verbs like "hate"
=
and "love" license a human object more strongly than do cognitive verbs
=
like "know"?
Herb =20
-----Original Message-----
From: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar on behalf of Johanna
=
Rubba
Sent: Sat 2/16/2008 8:26 PM
To: [log in to unmask]
Subject: Re: The use of "that"
=20
"That" can be omitted when it precedes a clause that is the direct =20
object of the verb, but not in other cases -- except for the verb =20
"hate", it seems -- for me, the "hate" example without "that" is =20
ungrammatical. Hmm.
Dr. Johanna Rubba, Ph. D.
Associate Professor, Linguistics
Linguistics Minor Advisor
English Dept.
Cal Poly State University San Luis Obispo
San Luis Obispo, CA 93407
Ofc. tel. : 805-756-2184
Dept. tel.: 805-756-2596
Dept. fax: 805-756-6374
E-mail: [log in to unmask]
URL: cla.calpoly.edu/~jrubba
To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web =
interface at:
http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html
and select "Join or leave the list"
Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/
To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web
interface
at:
http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html
and select "Join or leave the list"
Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/
------------------------------
Date: Sat, 16 Feb 2008 21:36:03 -0500
From: Nancy Tuten <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Re: The use of "that"
Herb,
I'm not sure I see how those two sentences can be compared. The sentence
"That's the man met me at the airport" contains a relative clause with a
missing "who." In the sentence "I hate Fred isn't coming to the party,"
we
have a noun/nominal clause with a missing "that."
The relative clause in your airport sentence is ungrammatical without
the
relative pronoun because that pronoun functions as the subject of the
relative clause. But "that" merely launches a noun clause in the "hate
Fred"
sentence. Since the word "that" doesn't function in a key slot in the
noun
clause, it seems that these are quite different kinds of sentences with
different functions of "that." In other words, aren't we mixing apples
and
oranges?
When you say "Your first example is bad," do you mean that I have chosen
an
example that doesn't fit the discussion or that the sentence is badly
constructed?
I agree with the latter meaning; the sentence is badly constructed
without
the word "that" because it invites a misreading. I also agree that a
different verb--such as "know" or "remember"--would be less likely to
invite
a misreading, but the possibility for a misreading is still there.
In sentences with relative clauses launched by the pronoun "that" or
"who,"
the pronoun can probably be omitted as long as it is in the object slot
and
not the subject slot of its own clause:
She lost the ring [that] I bought last week. ["That" is not necessary]
She lost the ring that belonged to my mother. ["That" is necessary]
I think I would give this advice to student writers: In some situations,
"that" is essential, in some cases it aids in the reading but might be
considered optional by some readers, and in some cases it is not
necessary
and even makes the sentence wordy (as in the first example above this
paragraph).
Do you agree?
Nancy
Nancy L. Tuten, PhD
Professor of English
Director of the Writing-across-the-Curriculum Program
Columbia College
Columbia, South Carolina
[log in to unmask]
803-786-3706
-----Original Message-----
From: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar
[mailto:[log in to unmask]] On Behalf Of STAHLKE, HERBERT F
Sent: Saturday, February 16, 2008 8:52 PM
To: [log in to unmask]
Subject: Re: The use of "that"
Nancy,
You're first example is bad for the same reason that
That's the man met me at the airport.
is wrong. There is a position that Fred fills that's required by
"hate,"
and so when you get to isn't you run into a parsing problem. A verb
like
"know" more readily anticipates a clause, so
Mary knows Fred isn't coming to the party.
doesn't have the same problem, even though you can say "Mary knows
Fred."
Herb
-----Original Message-----
From: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar on behalf of Nancy
Tuten
Sent: Sat 2/16/2008 10:39 AM
To: [log in to unmask]
Subject: Re: The use of "that"
How about in these examples?
Molly hates Fred isn't coming to the party.
Molly hates that Fred isn't coming to the party.
I would argue that the reader gets to the word "isn't" and realizes that
perhaps the thought that "Molly hates Fred" isn't what the writer
intended.
The reader then has to start over and rethink the sentence. It seems to
me
that it is the writer's job to keep the reader from doing that extra
work.
There is no doubt that the word "that" is unnecessary in many cases.
However, when I train in the business world and when I teach in the
college
classroom, I run into a lot of people who have been told to remove all
their
"thats." I argue that they should decide on a case-by-case basis.
Nancy
Nancy L. Tuten, PhD
Professor of English
Director of the Writing-across-the-Curriculum Program
Columbia College
Columbia, South Carolina
<mailto:[log in to unmask]> [log in to unmask]
803-786-3706
_____
From: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar
[mailto:[log in to unmask]] On Behalf Of Carol Morrison
Sent: Saturday, February 16, 2008 9:39 AM
To: [log in to unmask]
Subject: The use of "that"
As I am reading student essays today, I'm wondering if the use of
"that,"
which many of the students tend to omit, is necessary in certain
circumstances and what function it serves. For instance:
1) I think that we should go to the grocery store today rather than
Sunday.
vs.
2) I think we should go to the grocery store today rather than Sunday.
or, a 3rd person example, since the above are more representative of
speech
than writing:
3) Jean thinks that Genuardi's is a better supermarket than Giant.
vs.
4) Jean thinks Genuardi's is a better supermarket than Giant.
My feeling is that "that" should be in the sentence. Does it function as
a
complementizer in the above sentences? (I tend to get confused with
"that"
clauses).
Thank you!
Carol Morrison
_____
Never miss a thing. Make Yahoo
<http://us.rd.yahoo.com/evt=51438/*http:/www.yahoo.com/r/hs> your
homepage.
To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web
interface
at: http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html and select "Join or
leave
the list"
Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/
To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web
interface
at:
http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html
and select "Join or leave the list"
Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/
To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web
interface
at:
http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html
and select "Join or leave the list"
Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/
To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web
interface
at:
http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html
and select "Join or leave the list"
Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/
------------------------------
Date: Sat, 16 Feb 2008 23:05:51 -0500
From: "STAHLKE, HERBERT F" <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Re: The use of "that"
Nancy,
I agree with your advice, though not with all of your analysis. Let me
=
start by admitting that I didn't express myself very clearly about your
=
example. It was, in fact, a good example of a sentence that's badly =
constructed. Sorry about that.
I would say that the two sentences I gave are, in fact, very much alike,
=
and in the way that is crucial to what we're discussing. However, =
making that point takes us back to an old and long discussion on the =
list a few years ago about the lexical category status of "that" in the
=
two sentences. Most of the standard grammars treat "that" in the two =
sentences
(1) Molly hates that Fred isn't coming to the party.
(2) He's the man that met me at the airport.
as the same thing, a subordinating conjunction. There is a long =
tradition in school grammar and it some of the standard reference =
grammars to describe them as two separate words, that(1) as a relative =
pronoun and that(2) as a subordinating conjunction introducing noun =
clauses. Jespersen and Huddleston&Pullum both give extensive arguments
=
that I've posted here before to support their analysis, but I've =
summarized a little of it in a class handout that I'll send you =
separately. The gist of it is this:
1. Both are unstressed; the demonstrative is stressed, and relative =
pronouns in wh- are at least lightly stressed. These are reduced to =
[D@t] (voiced interdental fricative, schwa, /t/)/
2. Wh-relatives can occur as object of a preposition=20
(3) the students with whom you were working...=20
but "that" can't=20
(4) the students with *that you were working... vs.=20
the students you were working with....=20
3. "That" when used as a pronoun or demonstrative has the plural =
"those." "That" as a subordinator does not.
(5) The people that/*those I met with...=20
4. Wh-relatives have a genitive form "whose." "That" introducing a =
relative clause not only does not (and, of course, demonstrative pronoun
=
"that" lacks a genitive too, so this is a weaker argument).
Huddleston&Pullum have another page of arguments to the same effect.
5. The presence or absence of "that" in a relative clause and in a noun
=
clause are governed by similar conditions.
6. Omission of the relative marker has the same distribution as does =
"that." It can't happen with possessives or after a preposition. In =
those positions you have to use a wh-relative.
Whether the relative clause in "That's the man met me at the airport" is
=
ungrammatical depends on register. In speech it occurs readily, but it
=
is, as you say, ungrammatical in formal writing. "She lost the ring =
belonged to my mother" also works in speech without "that."
A corollary of these arguments is that in a that-relative the relative =
clause has a grammatical gap. The "that" is not a pronoun referring to
=
that gap, though. It's simply a subordinator.
Herb
-----Original Message-----
From: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar on behalf of Nancy =
Tuten
Sent: Sat 2/16/2008 9:36 PM
To: [log in to unmask]
Subject: Re: The use of "that"
=20
Herb,=20
I'm not sure I see how those two sentences can be compared. The sentence
"That's the man met me at the airport" contains a relative clause with a
missing "who." In the sentence "I hate Fred isn't coming to the party,"
=
we
have a noun/nominal clause with a missing "that."=20
The relative clause in your airport sentence is ungrammatical without =
the
relative pronoun because that pronoun functions as the subject of the
relative clause. But "that" merely launches a noun clause in the "hate =
Fred"
sentence. Since the word "that" doesn't function in a key slot in the =
noun
clause, it seems that these are quite different kinds of sentences with
different functions of "that." In other words, aren't we mixing apples
=
and
oranges?
When you say "Your first example is bad," do you mean that I have chosen
=
an
example that doesn't fit the discussion or that the sentence is badly
constructed?=20
I agree with the latter meaning; the sentence is badly constructed =
without
the word "that" because it invites a misreading. I also agree that a
different verb--such as "know" or "remember"--would be less likely to =
invite
a misreading, but the possibility for a misreading is still there.=20
In sentences with relative clauses launched by the pronoun "that" or =
"who,"
the pronoun can probably be omitted as long as it is in the object slot
=
and
not the subject slot of its own clause:
She lost the ring [that] I bought last week. ["That" is not necessary]
She lost the ring that belonged to my mother. ["That" is necessary]
I think I would give this advice to student writers: In some situations,
"that" is essential, in some cases it aids in the reading but might be
considered optional by some readers, and in some cases it is not =
necessary
and even makes the sentence wordy (as in the first example above this
paragraph).
Do you agree?=20
Nancy =20
Nancy L. Tuten, PhD
Professor of English
Director of the Writing-across-the-Curriculum Program
Columbia College
Columbia, South Carolina
[log in to unmask]
803-786-3706
-----Original Message-----
From: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar
[mailto:[log in to unmask]] On Behalf Of STAHLKE, HERBERT F
Sent: Saturday, February 16, 2008 8:52 PM
To: [log in to unmask]
Subject: Re: The use of "that"
Nancy,
You're first example is bad for the same reason that=20
That's the man met me at the airport.
is wrong. There is a position that Fred fills that's required by =
"hate,"
and so when you get to isn't you run into a parsing problem. A verb =
like
"know" more readily anticipates a clause, so=20
Mary knows Fred isn't coming to the party.
doesn't have the same problem, even though you can say "Mary knows =
Fred."
Herb=20
-----Original Message-----
From: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar on behalf of Nancy =
Tuten
Sent: Sat 2/16/2008 10:39 AM
To: [log in to unmask]
Subject: Re: The use of "that"
=20
How about in these examples?
=20
Molly hates Fred isn't coming to the party.
Molly hates that Fred isn't coming to the party.
=20
I would argue that the reader gets to the word "isn't" and realizes that
perhaps the thought that "Molly hates Fred" isn't what the writer =
intended.
The reader then has to start over and rethink the sentence. It seems to
=
me
that it is the writer's job to keep the reader from doing that extra =
work.
=20
There is no doubt that the word "that" is unnecessary in many cases.
However, when I train in the business world and when I teach in the =
college
classroom, I run into a lot of people who have been told to remove all =
their
"thats." I argue that they should decide on a case-by-case basis.
=20
Nancy
=20
Nancy L. Tuten, PhD
Professor of English
Director of the Writing-across-the-Curriculum Program
Columbia College
Columbia, South Carolina
<mailto:[log in to unmask]> [log in to unmask]
803-786-3706
_____ =20
From: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar
[mailto:[log in to unmask]] On Behalf Of Carol Morrison
Sent: Saturday, February 16, 2008 9:39 AM
To: [log in to unmask]
Subject: The use of "that"
=20
As I am reading student essays today, I'm wondering if the use of =
"that,"
which many of the students tend to omit, is necessary in certain
circumstances and what function it serves. For instance:
=20
1) I think that we should go to the grocery store today rather than =
Sunday.
=20
vs.
=20
2) I think we should go to the grocery store today rather than Sunday.
=20
or, a 3rd person example, since the above are more representative of =
speech
than writing:
=20
3) Jean thinks that Genuardi's is a better supermarket than Giant.
=20
vs.
=20
4) Jean thinks Genuardi's is a better supermarket than Giant.
=20
=20
My feeling is that "that" should be in the sentence. Does it function as
=
a
complementizer in the above sentences? (I tend to get confused with =
"that"
clauses).
=20
Thank you!
Carol Morrison
=20
=20
=20
_____ =20
Never miss a thing. Make Yahoo
<http://us.rd.yahoo.com/evt=3D51438/*http:/www.yahoo.com/r/hs> your =
homepage.
To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web =
interface
at: http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html and select "Join or =
leave
the list"=20
Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/=20
To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web =
interface
at:
http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html
and select "Join or leave the list"
Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/
To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web =
interface
at:
http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html
and select "Join or leave the list"
Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/
To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web =
interface at:
http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html
and select "Join or leave the list"
Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/
To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web
interface
at:
http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html
and select "Join or leave the list"
Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/
------------------------------
Date: Sat, 16 Feb 2008 23:52:08 -0500
From: Peter Adams <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Re: The use of "that"
Meanwhile, back to Nancy's original sentence:
Molly hates Fred isn't coming to the party.
Does anyone think this is an improvement:
Molly hates it that Fred isn't coming to the party.
Peter Adams
To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web
interface
at:
http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html
and select "Join or leave the list"
Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/
------------------------------
End of ATEG Digest - 15 Feb 2008 to 16 Feb 2008 (#2008-37)
**********************************************************
To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web
interface at:
http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html
and select "Join or leave the list"
Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/
To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web
interface at:
http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html
and select "Join or leave the list"
Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/
To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web
interface at:
http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html
and select "Join or leave the list"
Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/
To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web interface at:
http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html
and select "Join or leave the list"
Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/
|
