ATEG Archives

June 2008

ATEG@LISTSERV.MIAMIOH.EDU

Options: Use Monospaced Font
Show Text Part by Default
Show All Mail Headers

Message: [<< First] [< Prev] [Next >] [Last >>]
Topic: [<< First] [< Prev] [Next >] [Last >>]
Author: [<< First] [< Prev] [Next >] [Last >>]

Print Reply
Subject:
From:
Karl Hagen <[log in to unmask]>
Reply To:
Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar <[log in to unmask]>
Date:
Mon, 16 Jun 2008 10:44:37 -0700
Content-Type:
text/plain
Parts/Attachments:
text/plain (279 lines)
I have another one that is a bit more forgiving than the standard line, 
although it by no means makes a blanket recommendation for the plural: 
the _Merriam-Webster Dictionary of English Usage_.

Under the entry for "as well as", the authors note that (1) prescriptive 
usage books insist on singular only in such a case, (2) descriptive 
grammars throughout the 20th century have noted that in real-world 
writing there is mixed use: more commonly singular but plural often 
enough to be considered normal, and (3) there is a strong tendency to 
mark the "as well as" phrase as parenthetical by using with commas when 
the verb in singular and to mark it as tightly integrated, and therefore 
plural, by omitting the commas.

Their summary recommendation is this:

"Our advice to you is that if you join singular subjects with _as well 
as_, you should follow your instinctive feeling for the singular or 
plural of the verb, but it will help your readers if you omit the commas 
with the plural verb and insert them with the singular verb. If your 
instinct does not lead you to prefer one approach over the other and you 
do not want to rewrite (as with _and_), choose commas and a singular 
verb. That will offend no one." (p. 141)

Karl

Peter Adams wrote:
> Dick asks for "authorities" who propose a different rule.  I'm afraid 
> they will be difficult to find.  In addition to Hacker, I find the rule 
> in Troyka's Simon & Schuster Handbook for Writers (p 242), in the 
> Little, Brown Handbook (p 336), in the Prentice Hall Reference Guide (p 
> 54), and even Greenbaum & Quirk's Student's Grammar of the English 
> Language (p 217).
> 
> And yet, as Dick noted, sentences like "His speech as well as his manner 
> is objectionable*" don't "sound right."  To suggest that this is an 
> effective sentence, as all the handbooks seem to do, strikes me as 
> encouraging students to write awkwardly.  If we have to live with the 
> authorities' rule on agreement, then I would urge the writer to recast 
> the sentence so that it does "sound right."  *
> 
> I did, however, find one "authority" who sees this rule differently. 
>  Huddleston, Payne, and Peterson, writing in the Cambridge Grammar of 
> the English Language (2002), provide the following example:
> 
> i. b. Abstraction as well as impressionism were Russian inventions.
> 
> In these, " /as well as/  behaves like the coordinator /and/," they 
> observe.  
> 
> Then they provide the following:
> 
> ii. a. Beauty as well as love is redemptive.
> 
> One possible explanation for this distinction lies in the movability of 
> the as well as phrase.  In ii. a., the phrase can be fronted:
> 
> As well as love, beauty can be redemptive.
> 
> In 1. b., this fronting is more problematic:
> 
> ?As well as impressionism, abstraction was a Russian invention.
> 
> 
> 
> Peter Adams
> 
> 
> On Jun 16, 2008, at 10:08 AM, Carol Morrison wrote:
> 
>> Here is a citation from  A Writer's Reference  (sixth edition) by 
>> Diana Hacker: "Make the verb agree with its subject, not with words 
>> that come between...Phrases beginning with the prepositions /as well 
>> as, in addition to, accompanied by, together with, /and /along 
>> with /do not make a singular subject plural" (166). Hacker provides 
>> the following example:
>>
>> *The governor as well as his press secretary was shot*.
>>
>>
>>
>> --- On *Mon, 6/16/08, Veit, Richard /<[log in to unmask] 
>> <mailto:[log in to unmask]>>/* wrote:
>>
>>     From: Veit, Richard <[log in to unmask] <mailto:[log in to unmask]>>
>>     Subject: Re: a subject-verb-agreement question
>>     To: [log in to unmask] <mailto:[log in to unmask]>
>>     Date: Monday, June 16, 2008, 9:10 AM
>>
>>     Michael,
>>
>>      
>>
>>     You are saying that you disagree with Strunk and White (quoted by
>>     Carol below). Are there equivalent authorities you can cite? I am
>>     not saying “authorities” are ipso facto right (for example, you
>>     can still find textbooks that pronounce it ungrammatical to end a
>>     sentence with a preposition), but in matters like this there is
>>     often an agreed upon consensus.
>>
>>      
>>
>>     Dick
>>
>>      
>>
>>     * From: *  Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar
>>     [mailto:[log in to unmask]] *On Behalf Of *Michael Keith Pen
>>     Ultimate Rare Books
>>     *Sent:* Sunday, June 15, 2008 11:30 PM
>>     *To:* [log in to unmask] <mailto:[log in to unmask]>
>>     *Subject:* Re: a subject-verb-agreement question
>>
>>      
>>
>>     Dick et al
>>
>>      
>>
>>     Ask yourself why "his speech as well as his manners is
>>     objectionable" doesn't// sound // // right //.  In that sentence I
>>     suspect that "as well as  his manners " serves as a delayed,
>>     emphatic additional subject--something akin to: also especially
>>     his manners!--and is therefore and thereby plural.  Remember, if
>>     the subject is plural, the verb should be as well.  Many subjects
>>     succeeded by "as well as" are intended indeed to be singular.  The
>>     subject/example you provided, in most contexts, emphatically is
>>     NOT.  Grammar, like language and concepts, is contextual and **
>>     objective **.
>>
>>      
>>
>>     Michael  
>>
>>         -------------- Original message from "Veit, Richard"
>>         <[log in to unmask] <mailto:[log in to unmask]>>: --------------
>>         Thanks, Carol. That is most helpful. /Is/ it is. I knew that
>>         intellectually but wish it /sounded/right too. For example,
>>         change “manner” to “manners” in the Strunk and White example
>>         and it doesn’t seem as clear cut:  "His speech as well as his
>>         manners is objectionable."
>>
>>          
>>
>>         Dick Veit
>>
>>          
>>
>>         * From: *  Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar
>>         [mailto:[log in to unmask]] *On Behalf Of *Carol Morrison
>>         *Sent:* Sunday, June 15, 2008 4:11 PM
>>         *To:* [log in to unmask] <mailto:[log in to unmask]>
>>         *Subject:* Re: a subject-verb-agreement question
>>
>>          
>>
>>         According to Strunk and White in  The Elements of Style , "[a]
>>         singular subject remains singular even if other nouns are
>>         connected to it by // with, as well as, in addition to,
>>         except, together with, // and // no less than  //(21). So I
>>         believe that your last example would take the verb "is".
>>         Strunk and White give the following example: "His speech as
>>         well as his manner is objectionable" (21).
>>
>>         I'm not sure if the comma between "society at large" and "as
>>         well as" changes that in your sentence though.
>>
>>          
>>
>>         --- On *Sun, 6/15/08, Veit, Richard /<[log in to unmask]
>>         <mailto:[log in to unmask]>>/* wrote:
>>
>>             From: Veit, Richard <[log in to unmask] <mailto:[log in to unmask]>>
>>             Subject: a subject-verb-agreement question
>>             To: [log in to unmask] <mailto:[log in to unmask]>
>>             Date: Sunday, June 15, 2008, 3:32 PM
>>             A little help, please, with subject/verb agreement in a
>>             sentence. These I have no trouble with:
>>
>>              
>>
>>                 * Good policy will come when *society at
>>                   large is *educated about HPV.
>>                 * Good policy will come when *at-risk
>>                   individuals are *educated about HPV.
>>                 * Good policy will come when *society at large and
>>                   at-risk individuals are*educated about HPV. 
>>
>>              
>>
>>             And pretty sure about this:
>>
>>              
>>
>>                 * Good policy will come when *society at large (not
>>                   just at-risk individuals)is* educated about HPV. 
>>
>>              
>>
>>             But what about this one?
>>
>>              
>>
>>                 * Good policy will come when *society at large, as
>>                   well as at-risk individuals, is/are* educated about
>>                   HPV. 
>>
>>              
>>
>>             Do the commas make the second phrase an aside so that the
>>             verb should agree with “society” only (i.e., “is”)? Or do
>>             we treat “as well as” as equivalent to “and,” making “are”
>>             the right choice? I seek your informed guidance on the
>>             matter. Any specific reference to authority is especially
>>             welcome.
>>
>>              
>>
>>             Dick
>>             ________________________________
>>             Richard Veit
>>             Department of English
>>             University of North Carolina Wilmington
>>
>>              
>>
>>             To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the
>>             list's web interface
>>             at:http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html and
>>             select "Join or leave the list"
>>
>>             Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/
>>
>>
>>         To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's
>>         web interface
>>         at:http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html and select
>>         "Join or leave the list"
>>
>>         Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/
>>
>>         To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's
>>         web interface
>>         at:http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html and select
>>         "Join or leave the list"
>>
>>         Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/
>>
>>     To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web
>>     interface at:http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html and
>>     select "Join or leave the list"
>>
>>     Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/ To join or leave this
>>     LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web interface
>>     at: http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html and select "Join
>>     or leave the list"
>>
>>     Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/
>>
>>
>> To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web 
>> interface at: http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.htmland select 
>> "Join or leave the list"
>>
>> Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/
>>
> 
> = To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web 
> interface at: http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html and select 
> "Join or leave the list"
> 
> Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/
> 

To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web interface at:
     http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html
and select "Join or leave the list"

Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/

ATOM RSS1 RSS2