Ann,
I agree with you that one of the most important things
to teach our students (and often our teachers) is the
distinction between written and spoken varieties of
English, possibly even identifying spoken English and
written English as two distinct languages.  I have
coined the term "SLIP" - spoken language interference
pattern - to refer to those aspects of spoken language
(for example, the expressions you mention) that will
pop up in writing, particularly the writing of people
who are not avid readers.  As you say at the end of
your posting, this does involve teaching them grammar,
in almost every sense of the word, for there are SLIPs
in all components of language - phonology, morphology,
syntax, semantics, pragmatics and all. However, as
others on this list have observed, probably the best
way for students to learn written English is the way
to learn any language - by constant exposure and
opportunity to practice.  In other words, read and
write.

Helene


--- "Evans, Ann" <[log in to unmask]> wrote:
> The point I was making, which I obviously did not
> make very well, was that
> the observations made by several people in our
> correspondence that we use
> language (UG) as easily as, say, an athlete uses her
> muscles, meaning that
> we don't have to "learn" language (in this case
> "study grammar") don't apply
> when it comes to written language, that written
> language must be taught,
> even to native speakers.  The use of spoken-only
> expressions such as "Like I
> thought he was you know really cute," or the like,
> indicates that the
> student has not yet internalized the rules for
> writing language, which do
> not come naturally, as spoken language does.  One
> indication that a student
> has not internalized the writing rules is the
> absence of conventions, such
> as an initial cap and period ending, which do not
> exist in the spoken
> language which does come to us naturally.  I meant
> to use this observation
> to buttress my feeling that students need to be
> taught the conventions of
> written language, including the use of grammatical
> structures which may have
> been rare to non-existent in their linguistic
> experience, and that this
> teaching should include grammar.
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Nancy Patterson [mailto:[log in to unmask]]
> Sent: Friday, February 16, 2001 2:51 PM
> To: [log in to unmask]
> Subject: Re: Deep thoughts
>
>
> But what on earth makes you think k-12 students
> haven't been taught to
> capitalize the first letter of a sentence?  This is
> a basic convention of
> writing.  K-12 teachers get practically anal about
> this kind of thing, which
> may be why some students seem so bent on not using
> such conventions as
> capitalization.  Ask a first or second grade teacher
> if he or she doesn't
> cover this extensively.  We cannot assume that just
> because students don't
> capitalize means they can't.
>
> And besides, these conventions aren't really issues
> of grammar.  Grammar
> deals with structure, doesn't it?  Not minding your
> manners on paper?
>
> Nancy
>
>
> At 02:10 PM 2/15/01 -0600, you wrote:
> >The problem is not so much with spoken English, but
> with written English,
> >and it seems to me there is a big difference
> between mastering speaking and
> >mastering writing.  High school students often have
> not even mastered the
> >art of beginning sentences with capital letters and
> ending them with
> periods
> >(the conventions of English), much less the finer
> points of the language.
> >You DO have to be taught how to write in your own
> and in second languages.
> >It does not come naturally.
> >
> >-----Original Message-----
> >From: Richard Veit, UNCW English Department
> [mailto:[log in to unmask]]
> >Sent: Thursday, February 15, 2001 3:10 PM
> >To: [log in to unmask]
> >Subject: Re: Deep thoughts
> >
> >
> >At 01:29 PM 02/15/2001 -0600, David D Mulroy wrote:
> >>...Is there any other field where you can
> supposedly excel while referring
> >>to the tools of your trade as whatchamacallits?
> >
> >Professional athletes do pretty well without
> knowing the names of the
> >muscles they use, nor without a conscious
> understanding of how they
> >coordinate various muscles to do what they do.
> Language is one of many
> >skills that rely on unconscious knowledge, like
> running or jumping. An
> >athlete may gain some advantage by studying
> physiology, and a speaker may
> >gain some advantage by studying grammar, but many
> others do just fine
> >without that conscious knowledge.
> >
> >Dick Veit
> >
> >To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit
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> >
> >
> Nancy G. Patterson
> Portland Middle School, English Dept. Chair
> Portland, MI  48875
>
> "The text is a tissue of quotations drawn from the
> innumberable centers of
> culture."
> --Roland Barthes
>
> [log in to unmask]
> http://www.msu.edu/user/patter90/opening.htm
> http://www.npatterson.net/mid.html
>
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