Bob,
   I think Bruce and I are doing fine, though I leave it to Bruce to 
qualify that. When I write to Bruce, I don't think I am making 'claims' 
that need to be challenged, but simply articulating a point-of-view that 
I have been developing --am still developing-- over a period of time.  I 
think Bruce is curious about how I think and asking very thoughtful 
questions about it. If I am wrong; if there are "challenges" that I am 
ignoring, I hope Bruce tells me. This kind of conversation does not need 
to be contentious, and I have not been treating it that way.
   It might make more sense for you to post your own perspective to the 
list; you don't need to prove me wrong in order to present your own 
views. People could ask you for clarification, which is very different 
from trying to prove you wrong.
   It is possible to believe that form is innate, not tied to context 
except secondarily. But I don't see it that way.
   These positions are too complex to be reduced to an argument. Nor do 
I think that serves the purposes of the list.

Craig


Bob Yates wrote:
> Craig,
>
> I sometimes wonder if you ever remember what other people have written about your statements about language.
> You keep repeating the same things over and over and over again without any mention that people have challenged those claims.
>
> Your latest post is an excellent example of this inability to advance your claims after others have questioned them.
>
> There are two serious problems with the following passage with the statements about language.  
>
> Craig writes: 
>
>   I believe that a hammer is formed like a hammer because that form is
> suitable for its function. In that sense, the forms of grammar are
> context sensitive. We have ways to ask questions, for example, or make
> statements. These have evolved because language occurs between people,
> and we have evolved ways to offer or request information, and we have
> evolved ways to target the specific information we are looking for or
> offering, and so on. You can disagree, but I don't think that is an
> unusual position.
>
> *********************
> Problem one: There are forms of grammar that are invariant regardless of context. 
>
> Some examples: the form of all phrases (noun, verb, preposition, adjective, adverb); the form
> of the tense-aspect system including how we form verbal negation (the placement of not); the properties of count and non-count nouns; the form of the passive (its use is another issue); the form of noun, adverb, and adjective/relative clauses; the principles of pronoun-antecedent relationships. And, this is only a beginning list.  See A Comprehensive Grammar of English or the Cambridge Grammar of English for more.
>
> Problem two: Bruce's observation that we can use questions or statements to request /order someone to do something indicates that there is not a simple form-context relationship.  Example:
>
> 1) Close the window.
> 2)Can you close the window?
> 3) Because it looks like rain, the window should be closed.
>
> Problem 2 addresses this claim
>
> Craig writes: 
>    Quite frankly, we need a theory of grammar that can help us understand
> what is going on within any context of use. As I said to Bruce, you
> can't expect to get to context from form.
>
> **********************
> Please note the examples above are not about the passive, so any observation about the passive are not relevant.
>
> What theory of grammar explains how sentences 1-3 can be interpreted as a request/order to close the window?  
> As I have noted, the view of grammar that I have can't, but you apparently think one does exist.  Please explain to us how this theory of grammar can account for 1-3 being interpreted as a request.
>
> Bob Yates, Univesity of Central Missouri
>
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>
>   

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