Herb,

Just two slight adjustments from a British speaker.

We say 'hyumer' for 'humour' (as well as putting in that French 'u' in the
spelling)'.

You seem to have got the 'erb'/'herb' pronunciations the wrong way round.
I'm sure, Herb, you meant to type 'herb' for the British pronunciation, and
'erb' for the American.  Perhaps an unconscious interference from your name!

Edmond


Dr. Edmond Wright
3 Boathouse Court
Trafalgar Road
Cambridge
CB4 1DU
England

Email: [log in to unmask]
Website: http://people.pwf.cam.ac.uk/elw33/
Phone [00 44] (0)1223 350256






> Peter,
> Great story!  You¹re correct in pointing out that h-deletion and h-insertion
> are very much matters of dialect.  But h-ful dialects aside, like much of SE
> England, there is also a lot of variation within dialects as to which initial
> h get pronounced and which do not.  I¹ve heard speakers, especially BrE but
> also AmE, say ³an Œotel² and ³thee Œotel.²  British speakers tend to say
> ³yumor² for ³humor² and, as someone else pointed out ³erb² for ³herb.²
> ³Historic² is much more likely to elide its initial /h/ in BrE than in AmE,
> but as ³honor,² ³humor,² ³honest,² etc. suggest, stress placement has little
> to do with the presence or absence of initial /h/ in speech.
> 
> Herb
> 
> From: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar
> [mailto:[log in to unmask]] On Behalf Of Peter H. Fries
> Sent: Saturday, August 27, 2011 5:52 PM
> To: [log in to unmask]
> Subject: Re: Grammar Question
> 
> Have I missed some mention of accent here? It seems to me that the placement
> of word accent influences whether Œh¹ is optional or not. (or more properly,
> the probability of its appearance.) I certainly alternate in my pronunciation
> of Œhistoric¹ either pronouncing or not pronouncing the initial Œh¹. However I
> am much less likely to omit the initial Œh¹ in Œhistory¹, where the initial
> syllable is accented.  The elision of initial Œh¹ is quite common in words
> such as Œhim¹ and Œhis¹, which are regularly unaccented.  But compare the
> pronunciations of Œhim¹ in Œ*give* it to him¹ vs. Œgive it to *him*¹.
> (Asterisks indicate sentence stress.) I am much more likely to omit the
> initial Œh¹ in the first version than I am in the second.
> For those members of the list who are less familiar with English dialects, the
> pronunciation of initial Œh¹ (both omission of Œh¹ and insertion of Œh¹ where
> it Œdoesn¹t belong¹) is a feature that distinguishes many dialects,
> particularly British dialects. (Of course, talking about places where sounds
> are Œomitted¹ or where they Œdon¹t belong¹ is only possible if one chooses the
> proper dialect as a reference point. So far as the speakers of the ³Œh¹
> insertion²  dialects are concerned, the Œh¹ belongs there, it¹s all the other
> speakers who omit it.)
> 
> You may enjoy an old story from my family that turns on this difference in
> pronunciation of initial Œh¹.
> Many years ago (I suspect that it occurred in 1928 or 1929), when my parents
> were in England, they visited William Craigie (editor of the OED) and his
> wife, and at the end of the evening meal  a considerable amount of one of the
> dishes had been left over, so Mrs. Craigie told the housekeeper that she
> should keep it over night and Œheat it up for breakfast¹. The next morning,
> when the dish didn¹t appear, Mrs. Craigie asked after the dish, and the answer
> came back ³Oh, You said I could heat it up for breakfast, so I het it up.²
> Peter
> 
> On Fri, Aug 26, 2011 at 11:37 PM, Geoffrey Layton
> <[log in to unmask]<mailto:[log in to unmask]>> wrote:
> Let's not dismiss this one so easily.
> 
> In spite of what Grammar Girl says, does anyone honestly find that saying "a
> historic hurricane" out loud actually sound better than "an historic
> hurricane"? Only if the emphasis is on the indefinite article does "a
> historic" sound ok (it still sounds wrong to me even though I know it's
> right). However, if (as I would argue every native speaker does
> automatically), the sound of the article is naturally elided with the "h,"
> tonally forming one word "anistoric," then "an historic hurricane" is the
> proper choice - both orally and in writing. And why would the emphasis be
> placed on an indefinite article anyway? If we were talking about "the historic
> hurricane," then it makes some sense to emphasize "the," separating tonally
> the two words.
> 
> The next reason to savor this problem a bit more is that it is not a grammar
> problem at all, but one of usage. So the question becomes (even if we agree
> that "a historic" is "right") which "errors" of usage are worth fighting over?
> My feeling is that this judgment should be based on meaning - does the "error"
> affect the meaning? So this one ("an historic") fails to meet just about any
> criteria that calls for correction. In fact, correcting this "error" may even
> reach the level of "hyper-correctness" where being "right" sounds wrong to
> everybody else except us schoolmarms (and, as mentioned earlier, it even
> sounds wrong to this schoolmarm), so that not only does "an historic" not
> affect the meaning negatively, it actually enhances the meaning if it enhances
> the ability of all of but a select audience to focus on what is being said
> rather than how it is being said.
> 
> Geoff Layton
> 
> ________________________________
> Date: Fri, 26 Aug 2011 17:21:38 -0700
> From: [log in to unmask]<mailto:[log in to unmask]>
> Subject: Re: Grammar Question
> To: [log in to unmask]<mailto:[log in to unmask]>
> Thank you, Brad, M.T., and John for a quick response! I did not know the
> answer because I've heard both "a" and "an" used in front of "historic". I
> guess you would only use "an" if you pronounce "historic" with a silent "h".
> Carol
> --- On Fri, 8/26/11, Brad Layton <[log in to unmask]<mailto:[log in to unmask]>>
> wrote:
> 
> From: Brad Layton <[log in to unmask]<mailto:[log in to unmask]>>
> Subject: Re: Grammar Question
> To: [log in to unmask]<mailto:[log in to unmask]>
> Date: Friday, August 26, 2011, 8:07 PM
> Carol, either is "correct."  It simply depends on the idiolect of the
> individual speaking ... specifically, whether that person pronounces the "h"
> or does not pronounce the "h".  I am unaware of any prescriptive case for the
> superiority of either that would hold water ... or 100 mph winds, for that
> matter ;) .
> 
> 
> 
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Carol Morrison <[log in to unmask]<mailto:[log in to unmask]>>
> To: ATEG <[log in to unmask]<mailto:[log in to unmask]>>
> Sent: Fri, Aug 26, 2011 6:41 pm
> Subject: Grammar Question
> A friend just asked me which is correct: "a historic hurricane" or "an
> historic hurricane"? Can someone help me out here?
> Thanks!
> Carol
> 
> --- On Fri, 8/26/11, Kathleen Bethell
> <[log in to unmask]<http://us.mc1121.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=kbethell@I
> VYTECH.EDU>> wrote:
> 
> From: Kathleen Bethell
> <[log in to unmask]<http://us.mc1121.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=kbethell@I
> VYTECH.EDU>>
> Subject: Re: Membership in ATEG
> To: 
> [log in to unmask]<http://us.mc1121.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=ATEG@LI
> STSERV.MUOHIO.EDU>
> Date: Friday, August 26, 2011, 12:16 PM
> Thank you, Geoff ­ Amy already got in touch. ATEG folks are wonderful!
> 
> Kathi
> P.S. I don¹t know why the cc didn¹t work; the address is correct.
> 
> From: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar
> [mailto:[log in to unmask]<http://us.mc1121.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to
> [log in to unmask]&>] On Behalf Of Geoffrey Layton
> Sent: Friday, August 26, 2011 10:39 AM
> To: 
> [log in to unmask]<http://us.mc1121.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=ATEG@LI
> STSERV.MUOHIO.EDU>
> Subject: Re: Membership in ATEG
> 
> Kathi - I passed on your question to our president, Amy Benjamin - but I tried
> to copy you on the message and got an undeliverable message for
> [log in to unmask]<http://us.mc1121.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=kbethell@IV
> YTECH.EDU>.
> 
> Geoff Layton
> 
> ________________________________
> Date: Fri, 26 Aug 2011 10:19:07 -0400
> From: 
> [log in to unmask]<http://us.mc1121.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=kbethell@IV
> YTECH.EDU>
> Subject: Re: Membership in ATEG
> To: 
> [log in to unmask]<http://us.mc1121.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=ATEG@LI
> STSERV.MUOHIO.EDU>
> I never received acknowledgement when I joined, so I am not sure if I am even
> on the rolls, yet. Is there some way I can check to find out my membership
> status?
> 
> Kathi
> 
> Kathleen Bethell
> Assistant Professor
> Liberal Arts, English
> Ivy Tech Community College
> 200 Daniels Way
> Bloomington, IN 47404
> 
> From: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar
> [mailto:[log in to unmask]<http://us.mc1121.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to
> [log in to unmask]&>] On Behalf Of Amy Benjamin
> Sent: Saturday, August 20, 2011 10:33 AM
> To: 
> [log in to unmask]<http://us.mc1121.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=ATEG@LI
> STSERV.MUOHIO.EDU>
> Subject: Membership in ATEG
> 
> As you know, our hot new ATEG Journals are stacked and stampled in our
> mailroom (aka my basement) ready to go out to ATEG members. As we now do have
> a better system of keeping track of, acknowledging, and servicing ATEG
> members, please consider joining officially.
> 
> See www.ateg.org<http://www.ateg.org/> for details, which are, we are happy to
> report, now accurate!
> 
> Membership in ATEG allows you to receive the Journal, published twice yearly,
> and to keep ATEG as a (nagging) voice to our parent organization, NCTE. We
> maintain this listserv, our website, and are allowed to host a session at the
> NCTE annual conference. We also host an annual conference, gathering together
> all of the educators in the English-speaking, non-English-speaking, and
> non-speaking world, and non-world who are interested in the teaching of
> grammar. Thankfully, all of these people can fit easily into one room.
> 
> So keep those cards and letters coming!
> Amy Benjamin
> ATEG co-president
> To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web interface at:
> http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html and select "Join or leave the
> list"
> Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/
> To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web interface at:
> http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html and select "Join or leave the
> list" Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/
> To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web interface at:
> http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html and select "Join or leave the
> list"
> Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/
> To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web interface at:
> http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html and select "Join or leave the
> list"
> Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/
> 
> To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web interface at:
> http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html and select "Join or leave the
> list"
> Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/
> To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web interface at:
> http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html and select "Join or leave the
> list"
> Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/
> 
> To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web interface at:
> http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html and select "Join or leave the
> list" Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/
> To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web interface at:
> http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html and select "Join or leave the
> list"
> 
> Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/
> 
> 
> 
> --
> Peter H. Fries
> 
> Box 310
> Mount Pleasant MI 48804
> 
> Phone:  989-644-3384
> Cell:      989-400-3764
> 
> Email:  [log in to unmask]<mailto:[log in to unmask]>
> 
> Web page:  
> <http://cmich.edu/chsbs/x23516.xml<http://cmich.edu/chsbs/x23516.xml>>  [among
> 'emeritus faculty']
> 
> 
> To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web interface at:
> http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html and select "Join or leave the
> list"
> 
> Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/

To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web interface at:
     http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html
and select "Join or leave the list"

Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/