I don't see any significance to a lack of agreement about the meaning of
"main clause." As far as I can tell, it's not a standard term in grammar.
According to their indexes, neither Morenberg in DOING GRAMMAR or Kolln in
RHETORICAL GRAMMAR uses it. Klammer and Schultz in ANALYZING GRAMMAR define
a main clause as an independent clause but do not explain whether they
consider dependent clauses to be separate from or parts of the independent
clause. In fact, though they boldface the term "main clause" and include it
in the glossary, they use it in only two places in the entire book.

Lack of a term for the concept of "an independent clause plus all of the
phrases and dependent clauses attached thereto" is what led to the
invention of the term "t-unit."

We cannot expect members of ATEG to agree on terminology when the rest of
the world does not. Instead, we need to agree upon the CONCEPTS to be
taught and the ages at which to introduce them to students. Then we can
decide on names for concepts, understanding when we do that there will be
disagreement.

The way I see it, terms and their definitions are almost always problematic
in grammar. Students insist upon being given definitions like "a noun is
the name of a person, place, or thing," but those who try to use such
definitions are bound to fail. "Fishing," they say, can't be a noun because
it's not a person, place, or thing. It also expresses action, so it must be
a verb.

1. Fishing is fun.
2. I am fishing for bluegills.
3. Hand me my fishing pole.
4. This river is fishing beautiful if you ask me. (Sorry about the literary
expression. I've just been reading Thomas McGuane.)

When I was a graduate student, we had an expression about grammar: If you
can intuit, you can't do it.

So let's forget terms and definitions for now. The issues are these: What
concepts shall we recommend that all students should learn, when is the
best time to introduce the concepts, and how can concepts be taught so that
students can develop an intuitive grasp of grammar?

Bill

>I certainly agree with Ed Vavra's position that subordinate clauses are
>components of the main clause, inasmuch as they function as subjects (see 1
>below), direct objects (see 2), adverbials (3), and so on, of the main clause.
>
>1. That he will have good luck is doubtful.
>2. Both said I was wrong.
>3. Both were stunned when I made my claim.
>
>Apparently Ed and his colleagues were assuming different definitions of
>"main clause," but it seems odd to stipulate a definition of "clause" in
>which the subject of the clause would not be a component of the clause.
>
>Dick Veit
>UNCW
>
>At 03:54 AM 12/02/2000 -0500, you wrote:
>>Like Bill McCleary, I wish Herb luck, but I doubt that he will have it.
>>As long-time members of this list already know, there is little
>>agreement about what should be taught even in ATEG. I got into a
>>discussion of grammar with two of my colleagues, one in English comp,
>>the other in Tech Writing. Both were stunned when I said that a main
>>clause includes its subordinate clause(s). Both said I was wrong. When I
>>asked them what they would do with the sentence "What he knows is what
>>he has seen." they told me that neither "What he knows" nor "what he has
>>seen" is a clause.
>>      Of course, if the survey I took in Seattle still holds,
>>approximately half the members of ATEG do not believe that subordinate
>>clauses are part(s) of main clauses, and when I have asked for
>>discussion of this question on this list, my question has been ignored.
>>If this group cannot agree on what (specifically) should be taught, I
>>don't see how we can expect people who are not very interested in
>>grammar to listen to us.
>>Ed V.
>>
>>To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web
>>interface at:
>>      http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html
>>and select "Join or leave the list"
>>
>>Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/
>
>To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web interface at:
>     http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html
>and select "Join or leave the list"
>
>Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/


William J. McCleary
3247 Bronson Hill Road
Livonia, NY 14487
716-346-6859

To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web interface at:
     http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html
and select "Join or leave the list"

Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/