Ed,
    You are absolutely right!   I posed the question only as a direction; I was trying to find a container for a topic that often seems so huge.  I felt that beginning with what we wanted students to be able to do would help direct the conversation about what to teach.  The question "What do students need to know to write effectively" is terribly loose, and as you and others have pointed out begs the question: What is effective writing?  And that poses another question: effective at what grade level?
     Johanna  referred earlier to the basic issue of  what should be taught first, noting that she feels there is a core of concepts that students can learn as a foundation for further grammar instruction, a foundation that begins with simple structures that are then built upon.  She and the 3S committee will be discussing that in the near future.  Once we have concepts that are to be taught in the early grades and consistently reinforced in subsequent grades, my second question comes into play: How do we teach that?  My hope in posing the second question was/is that we present a
variety of methods.        Pam


EDWARD VAVRA wrote:

> The problem I have with Pam's response is that I do not know what she means by "write" in "What do students need to know to write effectively?" In spite of Barthes (Is is Barthes, isn't it?), "write" is a transitive verb. How many college writing instructors have said that their students do fine with narratives, but fall apart in expository writing? Isn't part of the difference the fact that expository writing requires more conditionals, more cause/effect logic, etc., much of which is embedded in the small words ¯ the conjunctions and prepositions, and in other aspects of syntax?
>      The question Pam proposes is valid, but doesn't it need clarification? Could we have some examples of the kinds of things that Pam, or anyone else, would use to answer that question?
>
> >>> Pam Dykstra <[log in to unmask]> 11/24 5:57 PM >>>
> The grammar discussion has been fascinating * and almost
> overwhelming because so many valuable responses have been
> posted.   I am having a hard time keeping all the insights in
> mind.  As I struggle to sort it all out, I wonder if we could
> begin with what we want students to be able to do.  This sounds,
> I know, embarrassingly simplistic, but it would give us a place
> to begin.  For me the question is: What do students need to know
> to write effectively?  Once we find common ground there, the next
> question might be: How do we teach that?  And here the question
> of what terminology we use will most likely emerge.
>  Can we also consider Susan Witt's suggestion (as I understood
> it): finding a variety of strategies -- rather than trying to
> find the one teaching method that does it right.  Johanna has
> noted that California has state-imposed academic standards.
> California is not alone, and additional states will undoubtably
> have mandated standards as the demand for accountability
> continues.  If our work is to be relevant, we need to be as
> inclusive as possible.
>  Wishing you all a wonderful Thanksgiving.  I'll be out of touch
> for a few days, and look forward to meeting you all online next
> week.  Pam Dykstra