Amen! If Dr. Young cannot pass it, the test answers are wrong!
Prof. Scott Catledge
---- ATEG automatic digest system <[log in to unmask]> wrote:
> There are 14 messages totaling 2410 lines in this issue.
>
> Topics of the day:
>
> 1. ATEG Digest - 9 Mar 2015 to 10 Mar 2015 (#2015-19) (13)
> 2. Compound Sentences and Coordinating Conjunctions
>
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> ----------------------------------------------------------------------
>
> Date: Wed, 11 Mar 2015 14:44:13 +0000
> From: Beth Young <[log in to unmask]>
> Subject: Re: ATEG Digest - 9 Mar 2015 to 10 Mar 2015 (#2015-19)
>
> I agree! It's depressing to see how often a standardized assessment will include confusing questions. I recently took the online practice test for a 6th grade reading test, and according to the answer key, a bunch of my answers were wrong . . . except that they weren't. Not to sound egotistical, but if a college English teacher with a Ph.D. has trouble identifying the right answers on a 6th grade test, something is wrong with the test.
>
> Beth
>
> Dr. Beth Rapp Young
> Associate Professor, English
> [log in to unmask]
>
> University of Central Florida
> "Reach for the Stars"
> ________________________________
> From: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar [[log in to unmask]] on behalf of Dixon, Jack [[log in to unmask]]
> Sent: Wednesday, March 11, 2015 10:38 AM
> To: [log in to unmask]
> Subject: Re: ATEG Digest - 9 Mar 2015 to 10 Mar 2015 (#2015-19)
>
>
> Beth,
>
>
>
> I responded more fully to another post, indicating the possibility of its adjectival status. However, in this sentence, the writer could have easily rewritten the sentence to say a shooting star surprised her. I think the question unfair for an 8th-grade multiple choice test.
>
>
>
> Jack
>
> ________________________________
> From: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar <[log in to unmask]> on behalf of Beth Young <[log in to unmask]>
> Sent: Wednesday, March 11, 2015 9:30 AM
> To: [log in to unmask]
> Subject: Re: ATEG Digest - 9 Mar 2015 to 10 Mar 2015 (#2015-19)
>
> It's possible to interpret B as active voice if you consider "surprised" to be adjectival. The "by a shooting star" phrase argues for passive, but the fact that you can say "was very surprised by . . ." argues for an adjectival complement.
>
> I prefer answer A, but I would probably accept B if a student invoked the "very" test.
>
> Beth
>
>
> ________________________________
> From: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar [[log in to unmask]] on behalf of Dick Veit [[log in to unmask]]
> Sent: Wednesday, March 11, 2015 9:24 AM
> To: [log in to unmask]
> Subject: Re: ATEG Digest - 9 Mar 2015 to 10 Mar 2015 (#2015-19)
>
> The question was which clause is in the active voice. A is the only correct answer.
>
>
> On Wed, Mar 11, 2015 at 7:12 AM, Scott Catledge <[log in to unmask]<mailto:[log in to unmask]>> wrote:
> I do not care what the dimwits who wrote the Kansas test say: A is certainly correct; although B is possible, I am a grammar nazi and I would have chosen A.
> Prof. Scott Catledge
> > ------------------------------
> >
> > Date: Tue, 10 Mar 2015 13:06:01 -0500
> > From: Shana Schmidt <[log in to unmask]<mailto:[log in to unmask]>>
> > Subject: Assessment question
> >
> > Please help us settle a debate about this sample 8th grade Kansas state assessment question.
> >
> > Rosa was admiring the moon when ____________.
> >
> > Which of the following completes the sentence in the active voice?
> >
> > A. she spotted a shooting star (this what student selected)
> >
> > B. she was surprised by a shooting star (this is marked as the correct answer)
> >
> > C. shooting star was spotted by her
> >
> > D. a shooting star was wished upon by her
> >
> >
> >
> > Thanks for your help on settling this debate so we can explain to the student.
> >
> > Shana
>
> To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web interface at: http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html and select "Join or leave the list"
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>
> ------------------------------
>
> Date: Wed, 11 Mar 2015 14:59:33 +0000
> From: "Dixon, Jack" <[log in to unmask]>
> Subject: Re: ATEG Digest - 9 Mar 2015 to 10 Mar 2015 (#2015-19)
>
> Yes, yes, yes. I think sometimes those tests, especially reading tests, are written to test certain kinds of texts and reading strategies. I am in TX, and my friends who teach in public schools complain that much of their professional development centers on strategies for passing the state tests.
>
>
>
> I still want to believe that the Kansas exam had a mis-keyed item on the answer key. If not, imagine the consequences if several similarly ambiguous items were on an exam that determines whether a student is working at grade level. Equally frightening would be the possibility that the results come with a diagnostic feature. If the student misses comparable questions on the difference between active and passive voice, then the student could be "remediated." What a waste.
>
> ________________________________
> From: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar <[log in to unmask]> on behalf of Beth Young <[log in to unmask]>
> Sent: Wednesday, March 11, 2015 9:44 AM
> To: [log in to unmask]
> Subject: Re: ATEG Digest - 9 Mar 2015 to 10 Mar 2015 (#2015-19)
>
> I agree! It's depressing to see how often a standardized assessment will include confusing questions. I recently took the online practice test for a 6th grade reading test, and according to the answer key, a bunch of my answers were wrong . . . except that they weren't. Not to sound egotistical, but if a college English teacher with a Ph.D. has trouble identifying the right answers on a 6th grade test, something is wrong with the test.
>
> Beth
>
> Dr. Beth Rapp Young
> Associate Professor, English
> [log in to unmask]
>
> University of Central Florida
> "Reach for the Stars"
> ________________________________
> From: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar [[log in to unmask]] on behalf of Dixon, Jack [[log in to unmask]]
> Sent: Wednesday, March 11, 2015 10:38 AM
> To: [log in to unmask]
> Subject: Re: ATEG Digest - 9 Mar 2015 to 10 Mar 2015 (#2015-19)
>
>
> Beth,
>
>
>
> I responded more fully to another post, indicating the possibility of its adjectival status. However, in this sentence, the writer could have easily rewritten the sentence to say a shooting star surprised her. I think the question unfair for an 8th-grade multiple choice test.
>
>
>
> Jack
>
> ________________________________
> From: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar <[log in to unmask]> on behalf of Beth Young <[log in to unmask]>
> Sent: Wednesday, March 11, 2015 9:30 AM
> To: [log in to unmask]
> Subject: Re: ATEG Digest - 9 Mar 2015 to 10 Mar 2015 (#2015-19)
>
> It's possible to interpret B as active voice if you consider "surprised" to be adjectival. The "by a shooting star" phrase argues for passive, but the fact that you can say "was very surprised by . . ." argues for an adjectival complement.
>
> I prefer answer A, but I would probably accept B if a student invoked the "very" test.
>
> Beth
>
>
> ________________________________
> From: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar [[log in to unmask]] on behalf of Dick Veit [[log in to unmask]]
> Sent: Wednesday, March 11, 2015 9:24 AM
> To: [log in to unmask]
> Subject: Re: ATEG Digest - 9 Mar 2015 to 10 Mar 2015 (#2015-19)
>
> The question was which clause is in the active voice. A is the only correct answer.
>
>
> On Wed, Mar 11, 2015 at 7:12 AM, Scott Catledge <[log in to unmask]<mailto:[log in to unmask]>> wrote:
> I do not care what the dimwits who wrote the Kansas test say: A is certainly correct; although B is possible, I am a grammar nazi and I would have chosen A.
> Prof. Scott Catledge
> > ------------------------------
> >
> > Date: Tue, 10 Mar 2015 13:06:01 -0500
> > From: Shana Schmidt <[log in to unmask]<mailto:[log in to unmask]>>
> > Subject: Assessment question
> >
> > Please help us settle a debate about this sample 8th grade Kansas state assessment question.
> >
> > Rosa was admiring the moon when ____________.
> >
> > Which of the following completes the sentence in the active voice?
> >
> > A. she spotted a shooting star (this what student selected)
> >
> > B. she was surprised by a shooting star (this is marked as the correct answer)
> >
> > C. shooting star was spotted by her
> >
> > D. a shooting star was wished upon by her
> >
> >
> >
> > Thanks for your help on settling this debate so we can explain to the student.
> >
> > Shana
>
> To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web interface at: http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html and select "Join or leave the list"
>
> Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/
>
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>
> ------------------------------
>
> Date: Wed, 11 Mar 2015 11:05:05 -0400
> From: Don Stewart <[log in to unmask]>
> Subject: Re: ATEG Digest - 9 Mar 2015 to 10 Mar 2015 (#2015-19)
>
> Beth,
>
> If you consider "surprised" to be adjectival, then doesn't that make "was"
> a linking verb? In that case, there is no action verb, and thus no active
> voice.
>
> Don
> Stewart
> writingwhatever.com
>
>
>
>
> <http://www.writing123.com>
>
> To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web interface at:
> http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html
> and select "Join or leave the list"
>
> Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Date: Wed, 11 Mar 2015 15:37:46 +0000
> From: Beth Young <[log in to unmask]>
> Subject: Re: ATEG Digest - 9 Mar 2015 to 10 Mar 2015 (#2015-19)
>
> Interesting! Passive voice is something that only transitive verbs can have, but I've never considered active voice to be limited to transitive verbs. I've always considered all verbs that are conjugated with the formula "Tense + Modal (have + -en) (be + -ing) Main Verb" to be active voice, and verbs conjugated with the formula "Tense + Modal (have + -en) (be + -ing) + be + -en + Main Verb" to be passive voice. Otherwise, wouldn't many verbs have no voice at all? Maybe that doesn't matter.
>
> Hats off to any 8th grade teachers who wade into this question with their students. :)
>
> Beth
>
> Dr. Beth Rapp Young
> Associate Professor, English
> [log in to unmask]
>
> University of Central Florida
> "Reach for the Stars"
> ________________________________
> From: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar [[log in to unmask]] on behalf of Don Stewart [[log in to unmask]]
> Sent: Wednesday, March 11, 2015 11:05 AM
> To: [log in to unmask]
> Subject: Re: ATEG Digest - 9 Mar 2015 to 10 Mar 2015 (#2015-19)
>
> Beth,
>
> If you consider "surprised" to be adjectival, then doesn't that make "was" a linking verb? In that case, there is no action verb, and thus no active voice.
>
> Don
> Stewart
> writingwhatever.com<http://writingwhatever.com>
>
>
>
>
> <http://www.writing123.com>
>
> To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web interface at: http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html and select "Join or leave the list"
>
> Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/
>
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>
> Visit ATEG's web site at h
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Date: Wed, 11 Mar 2015 15:52:54 +0000
> From: "Spruiell, William C" <[log in to unmask]>
> Subject: Re: ATEG Digest - 9 Mar 2015 to 10 Mar 2015 (#2015-19)
>
> I've run into both labeling systems -- one just uses "active" to mean "non-passive," and so all linking verbs are active; the other uses "active" to mean "the speaker/writer chose not to use passive," and thus restricts it to transitives.
>
> I also have been seeing some problematic questions on sample questions for tests used to evaluate students in my state. I would hope that, as a minimum, the real test questions are run past a panel of outside experts before the test is deployed. That may cost money, though, and I'm worried that the test developers might not be doing it.
>
> Bill Spruiell
> Central Michigan University
>
> ________________________________
> From: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar [[log in to unmask]] on behalf of Beth Young [[log in to unmask]]
> Sent: Wednesday, March 11, 2015 11:37 AM
> To: [log in to unmask]
> Subject: Re: ATEG Digest - 9 Mar 2015 to 10 Mar 2015 (#2015-19)
>
> Interesting! Passive voice is something that only transitive verbs can have, but I've never considered active voice to be limited to transitive verbs. I've always considered all verbs that are conjugated with the formula "Tense + Modal (have + -en) (be + -ing) Main Verb" to be active voice, and verbs conjugated with the formula "Tense + Modal (have + -en) (be + -ing) + be + -en + Main Verb" to be passive voice. Otherwise, wouldn't many verbs have no voice at all? Maybe that doesn't matter.
>
> Hats off to any 8th grade teachers who wade into this question with their students. :)
>
> Beth
>
> Dr. Beth Rapp Young
> Associate Professor, English
> [log in to unmask]
>
> University of Central Florida
> "Reach for the Stars"
> ________________________________
> From: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar [[log in to unmask]] on behalf of Don Stewart [[log in to unmask]]
> Sent: Wednesday, March 11, 2015 11:05 AM
> To: [log in to unmask]
> Subject: Re: ATEG Digest - 9 Mar 2015 to 10 Mar 2015 (#2015-19)
>
> Beth,
>
> If you consider "surprised" to be adjectival, then doesn't that make "was" a linking verb? In that case, there is no action verb, and thus no active voice.
>
> Don
> Stewart
> writingwhatever.com<http://writingwhatever.com>
>
>
>
>
> <http://www.writing123.com>
>
> To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web interface at: http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html and select "Join or leave the list"
>
> Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/
>
> To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web interface at: http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html and select "Join or leave the list"
>
> Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/
>
> To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web interface at:
> http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html
> and select "Join or leave the list"
>
> Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Date: Wed, 11 Mar 2015 09:14:37 -0700
> From: Karl Hagen <[log in to unmask]>
> Subject: Re: ATEG Digest - 9 Mar 2015 to 10 Mar 2015 (#2015-19)
>
> It depends on whether you regard voice to be a property of the verb or a structural pattern of a clause. The former is the assumption, implicit or otherwise, in most traditional grammar books. In the 19th century, intransitive verbs were often said to be in the "middle" voice to account for this gap. On the other hand, much work in modern linguistics takes the second analysis to be more accurate. As a type of clause, there's no real problem. You simply say that the active-voice pattern is the unmarked default, and hence applies to anything that is not passive voice.
>
>
> > On Mar 11, 2015, at 8:37 AM, Beth Young <[log in to unmask]> wrote:
> >
> > Interesting! Passive voice is something that only transitive verbs can have, but I've never considered active voice to be limited to transitive verbs. I've always considered all verbs that are conjugated with the formula "Tense + Modal (have + -en) (be + -ing) Main Verb" to be active voice, and verbs conjugated with the formula "Tense + Modal (have + -en) (be + -ing) + be + -en + Main Verb" to be passive voice. Otherwise, wouldn't many verbs have no voice at all? Maybe that doesn't matter.
> >
> > Hats off to any 8th grade teachers who wade into this question with their students. :)
> >
> > Beth
> >
> > Dr. Beth Rapp Young
> > Associate Professor, English
> > [log in to unmask]
> >
> > University of Central Florida
> > "Reach for the Stars"
> > From: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar [[log in to unmask]] on behalf of Don Stewart [[log in to unmask]]
> > Sent: Wednesday, March 11, 2015 11:05 AM
> > To: [log in to unmask]
> > Subject: Re: ATEG Digest - 9 Mar 2015 to 10 Mar 2015 (#2015-19)
> >
> > Beth,
> >
> > If you consider "surprised" to be adjectival, then doesn't that make "was" a linking verb? In that case, there is no action verb, and thus no active voice.
> >
> > Don Stewart
> > writingwhatever.com
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web interface at: http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html and select "Join or leave the list"
> > Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/
> > To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web interface at: http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html and select "Join or leave the list"
> > Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/
>
> To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web interface at:
> http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html
> and select "Join or leave the list"
>
> Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Date: Wed, 11 Mar 2015 17:09:18 +0000
> From: "Hancock, Craig G" <[log in to unmask]>
> Subject: Re: ATEG Digest - 9 Mar 2015 to 10 Mar 2015 (#2015-19)
>
> Karl,
> Where would "stative" fit in?
> And how do we deal with something like "The fields dried up in the sun?"
>
> Craig
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar [mailto:[log in to unmask]] On Behalf Of Karl Hagen
> Sent: Wednesday, March 11, 2015 12:15 PM
> To: [log in to unmask]
> Subject: Re: ATEG Digest - 9 Mar 2015 to 10 Mar 2015 (#2015-19)
>
> It depends on whether you regard voice to be a property of the verb or a structural pattern of a clause. The former is the assumption, implicit or otherwise, in most traditional grammar books. In the 19th century, intransitive verbs were often said to be in the "middle" voice to account for this gap. On the other hand, much work in modern linguistics takes the second analysis to be more accurate. As a type of clause, there's no real problem. You simply say that the active-voice pattern is the unmarked default, and hence applies to anything that is not passive voice.
>
>
> > On Mar 11, 2015, at 8:37 AM, Beth Young <[log in to unmask]> wrote:
> >
> > Interesting! Passive voice is something that only transitive verbs can have, but I've never considered active voice to be limited to transitive verbs. I've always considered all verbs that are conjugated with the formula "Tense + Modal (have + -en) (be + -ing) Main Verb" to be active voice, and verbs conjugated with the formula "Tense + Modal (have + -en) (be + -ing) + be + -en + Main Verb" to be passive voice. Otherwise, wouldn't many verbs have no voice at all? Maybe that doesn't matter.
> >
> > Hats off to any 8th grade teachers who wade into this question with
> > their students. :)
> >
> > Beth
> >
> > Dr. Beth Rapp Young
> > Associate Professor, English
> > [log in to unmask]
> >
> > University of Central Florida
> > "Reach for the Stars"
> > From: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar
> > [[log in to unmask]] on behalf of Don Stewart
> > [[log in to unmask]]
> > Sent: Wednesday, March 11, 2015 11:05 AM
> > To: [log in to unmask]
> > Subject: Re: ATEG Digest - 9 Mar 2015 to 10 Mar 2015 (#2015-19)
> >
> > Beth,
> >
> > If you consider "surprised" to be adjectival, then doesn't that make "was" a linking verb? In that case, there is no action verb, and thus no active voice.
> >
> > Don Stewart
> > writingwhatever.com
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web interface at: http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html and select "Join or leave the list"
> > Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/ To join or leave this
> > LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web interface at: http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html and select "Join or leave the list"
> > Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/
>
> To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web interface at:
> http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html
> and select "Join or leave the list"
>
> Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/
>
> To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web interface at:
> http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html
> and select "Join or leave the list"
>
> Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Date: Wed, 11 Mar 2015 10:50:15 -0700
> From: Karl Hagen <[log in to unmask]>
> Subject: Re: ATEG Digest - 9 Mar 2015 to 10 Mar 2015 (#2015-19)
>
> The stative/dynamic distinction is semantic (an expression of aspectuality), and I take passive voice to be primarily a syntactic construction.
>
> Although it's true that adjectival passives will always have a stative interpretation, and that ambiguities such as B typically turn on whether
> we understand the situation as stative or dynamic, it's also the case that some passive-voice constructions can be stative (e.g, "She is loved by everyone.")
>
> For your example, I take this to be an instance of a so-called unaccusative verb, along the lines of:
>
> The pilot landed the plane. / The plane landed.
> The wind opened the door. / The door opened.
> The sun dried up the fields. / The fields dried up.
>
> So I take your example to be active voice. In other words, the mere fact that the semantic role of the subject is something other than agent/instrument isn't sufficient to call something passive.
>
> > On Mar 11, 2015, at 10:09 AM, Hancock, Craig G <[log in to unmask]> wrote:
> >
> > Karl,
> > Where would "stative" fit in?
> > And how do we deal with something like "The fields dried up in the sun?"
> >
> > Craig
> >
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar [mailto:[log in to unmask]] On Behalf Of Karl Hagen
> > Sent: Wednesday, March 11, 2015 12:15 PM
> > To: [log in to unmask]
> > Subject: Re: ATEG Digest - 9 Mar 2015 to 10 Mar 2015 (#2015-19)
> >
> > It depends on whether you regard voice to be a property of the verb or a structural pattern of a clause. The former is the assumption, implicit or otherwise, in most traditional grammar books. In the 19th century, intransitive verbs were often said to be in the "middle" voice to account for this gap. On the other hand, much work in modern linguistics takes the second analysis to be more accurate. As a type of clause, there's no real problem. You simply say that the active-voice pattern is the unmarked default, and hence applies to anything that is not passive voice.
> >
> >
> >> On Mar 11, 2015, at 8:37 AM, Beth Young <[log in to unmask]> wrote:
> >>
> >> Interesting! Passive voice is something that only transitive verbs can have, but I've never considered active voice to be limited to transitive verbs. I've always considered all verbs that are conjugated with the formula "Tense + Modal (have + -en) (be + -ing) Main Verb" to be active voice, and verbs conjugated with the formula "Tense + Modal (have + -en) (be + -ing) + be + -en + Main Verb" to be passive voice. Otherwise, wouldn't many verbs have no voice at all? Maybe that doesn't matter.
> >>
> >> Hats off to any 8th grade teachers who wade into this question with
> >> their students. :)
> >>
> >> Beth
> >>
> >> Dr. Beth Rapp Young
> >> Associate Professor, English
> >> [log in to unmask]
> >>
> >> University of Central Florida
> >> "Reach for the Stars"
> >> From: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar
> >> [[log in to unmask]] on behalf of Don Stewart
> >> [[log in to unmask]]
> >> Sent: Wednesday, March 11, 2015 11:05 AM
> >> To: [log in to unmask]
> >> Subject: Re: ATEG Digest - 9 Mar 2015 to 10 Mar 2015 (#2015-19)
> >>
> >> Beth,
> >>
> >> If you consider "surprised" to be adjectival, then doesn't that make "was" a linking verb? In that case, there is no action verb, and thus no active voice.
> >>
> >> Don Stewart
> >> writingwhatever.com
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >> To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web interface at: http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html and select "Join or leave the list"
> >> Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/ To join or leave this
> >> LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web interface at: http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html and select "Join or leave the list"
> >> Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/
> >
> > To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web interface at:
> > http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html
> > and select "Join or leave the list"
> >
> > Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/
> >
> > To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web interface at:
> > http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html
> > and select "Join or leave the list"
> >
> > Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/
>
> To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web interface at:
> http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html
> and select "Join or leave the list"
>
> Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Date: Wed, 11 Mar 2015 12:57:37 -0500
> From: Seth Katz <[log in to unmask]>
> Subject: Re: ATEG Digest - 9 Mar 2015 to 10 Mar 2015 (#2015-19)
>
> Karl (and others):
>
> Does labeling a verb as being in the active voice imply that it is
> transitive, and therefore can be put in the passive voice?
> That is, you can't put a non-accusative verb in the passive voice (e.g.
> "The plan landed"); so can such a verb be properly said to be in the active
> voice?
> Or am I not understanding the notion of "voice" correctly?
>
> Seth Katz
>
> *Dr. Seth Katz*
> *Associate **Professor*
> *Associate Chair*
> *Department of English*
> *Bradley University*
> *Peoria, IL 61625*
>
> *Executive Director / Faculty Advisor*
> *Bradley University Hillel*
>
> On Wed, Mar 11, 2015 at 12:50 PM, Karl Hagen <[log in to unmask]> wrote:
>
> > The stative/dynamic distinction is semantic (an expression of
> > aspectuality), and I take passive voice to be primarily a syntactic
> > construction.
> >
> > Although it's true that adjectival passives will always have a stative
> > interpretation, and that ambiguities such as B typically turn on whether
> > we understand the situation as stative or dynamic, it's also the case that
> > some passive-voice constructions can be stative (e.g, "She is loved by
> > everyone.")
> >
> > For your example, I take this to be an instance of a so-called
> > unaccusative verb, along the lines of:
> >
> > The pilot landed the plane. / The plane landed.
> > The wind opened the door. / The door opened.
> > The sun dried up the fields. / The fields dried up.
> >
> > So I take your example to be active voice. In other words, the mere fact
> > that the semantic role of the subject is something other than
> > agent/instrument isn't sufficient to call something passive.
> >
> > > On Mar 11, 2015, at 10:09 AM, Hancock, Craig G <[log in to unmask]>
> > wrote:
> > >
> > > Karl,
> > > Where would "stative" fit in?
> > > And how do we deal with something like "The fields dried up in the
> > sun?"
> > >
> > > Craig
> > >
> > > -----Original Message-----
> > > From: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar [mailto:
> > [log in to unmask]] On Behalf Of Karl Hagen
> > > Sent: Wednesday, March 11, 2015 12:15 PM
> > > To: [log in to unmask]
> > > Subject: Re: ATEG Digest - 9 Mar 2015 to 10 Mar 2015 (#2015-19)
> > >
> > > It depends on whether you regard voice to be a property of the verb or a
> > structural pattern of a clause. The former is the assumption, implicit or
> > otherwise, in most traditional grammar books. In the 19th century,
> > intransitive verbs were often said to be in the "middle" voice to account
> > for this gap. On the other hand, much work in modern linguistics takes the
> > second analysis to be more accurate. As a type of clause, there's no real
> > problem. You simply say that the active-voice pattern is the unmarked
> > default, and hence applies to anything that is not passive voice.
> > >
> > >
> > >> On Mar 11, 2015, at 8:37 AM, Beth Young <[log in to unmask]> wrote:
> > >>
> > >> Interesting! Passive voice is something that only transitive verbs can
> > have, but I've never considered active voice to be limited to transitive
> > verbs. I've always considered all verbs that are conjugated with the
> > formula "Tense + Modal (have + -en) (be + -ing) Main Verb" to be active
> > voice, and verbs conjugated with the formula "Tense + Modal (have + -en)
> > (be + -ing) + be + -en + Main Verb" to be passive voice. Otherwise,
> > wouldn't many verbs have no voice at all? Maybe that doesn't matter.
> > >>
> > >> Hats off to any 8th grade teachers who wade into this question with
> > >> their students. :)
> > >>
> > >> Beth
> > >>
> > >> Dr. Beth Rapp Young
> > >> Associate Professor, English
> > >> [log in to unmask]
> > >>
> > >> University of Central Florida
> > >> "Reach for the Stars"
> > >> From: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar
> > >> [[log in to unmask]] on behalf of Don Stewart
> > >> [[log in to unmask]]
> > >> Sent: Wednesday, March 11, 2015 11:05 AM
> > >> To: [log in to unmask]
> > >> Subject: Re: ATEG Digest - 9 Mar 2015 to 10 Mar 2015 (#2015-19)
> > >>
> > >> Beth,
> > >>
> > >> If you consider "surprised" to be adjectival, then doesn't that make
> > "was" a linking verb? In that case, there is no action verb, and thus no
> > active voice.
> > >>
> > >> Don Stewart
> > >> writingwhatever.com
> > >>
> > >>
> > >>
> > >>
> > >>
> > >>
> > >> To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web
> > interface at: http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html and select
> > "Join or leave the list"
> > >> Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/ To join or leave this
> > >> LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web interface at:
> > http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html and select "Join or leave
> > the list"
> > >> Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/
> > >
> > > To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web
> > interface at:
> > > http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html
> > > and select "Join or leave the list"
> > >
> > > Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/
> > >
> > > To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web
> > interface at:
> > > http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html
> > > and select "Join or leave the list"
> > >
> > > Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/
> >
> > To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web interface
> > at:
> > http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html
> > and select "Join or leave the list"
> >
> > Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/
> >
>
> To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web interface at:
> http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html
> and select "Join or leave the list"
>
> Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Date: Wed, 11 Mar 2015 11:28:50 -0700
> From: Karl Hagen <[log in to unmask]>
> Subject: Re: ATEG Digest - 9 Mar 2015 to 10 Mar 2015 (#2015-19)
>
> I would answer no, but then I subscribe to the notion that passive voice is better understood as a clause type than as just a property of a verb, and transformation between active and passive equivalents isn't a sufficient way to understand the two. There are, for example, a few verbs that only occur in the passive voice. (He is reputed to be a misogynist; It is rumored that she will quit soon.)
>
> As I pointed out in an earlier message, though, traditional grammar often does assume that the passive voice is a property of the verb, and so would only call transitive verbs active. The nineteenth century grammars that I've looked at usually treat the voice of intransitives explicitly, by introducing a term like "middle voice." In the twentieth century, that distinction was dropped, as far as I can tell, but it wasn't replaced with anything. In other words, later works in the traditional paradigm finesse the issue by ignoring it.
>
> > On Mar 11, 2015, at 10:57 AM, Seth Katz <[log in to unmask]> wrote:
> >
> > Karl (and others):
> >
> > Does labeling a verb as being in the active voice imply that it is transitive, and therefore can be put in the passive voice?
> > That is, you can't put a non-accusative verb in the passive voice (e.g. "The plan landed"); so can such a verb be properly said to be in the active voice?
> > Or am I not understanding the notion of "voice" correctly?
> >
> > Seth Katz
> >
> > Dr. Seth Katz
> > Associate Professor
> > Associate Chair
> > Department of English
> > Bradley University
> > Peoria, IL 61625
> >
> > Executive Director / Faculty Advisor
> > Bradley University Hillel
> >
> > On Wed, Mar 11, 2015 at 12:50 PM, Karl Hagen <[log in to unmask]> wrote:
> > The stative/dynamic distinction is semantic (an expression of aspectuality), and I take passive voice to be primarily a syntactic construction.
> >
> > Although it's true that adjectival passives will always have a stative interpretation, and that ambiguities such as B typically turn on whether
> > we understand the situation as stative or dynamic, it's also the case that some passive-voice constructions can be stative (e.g, "She is loved by everyone.")
> >
> > For your example, I take this to be an instance of a so-called unaccusative verb, along the lines of:
> >
> > The pilot landed the plane. / The plane landed.
> > The wind opened the door. / The door opened.
> > The sun dried up the fields. / The fields dried up.
> >
> > So I take your example to be active voice. In other words, the mere fact that the semantic role of the subject is something other than agent/instrument isn't sufficient to call something passive.
> >
> > > On Mar 11, 2015, at 10:09 AM, Hancock, Craig G <[log in to unmask]> wrote:
> > >
> > > Karl,
> > > Where would "stative" fit in?
> > > And how do we deal with something like "The fields dried up in the sun?"
> > >
> > > Craig
> > >
> > > -----Original Message-----
> > > From: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar [mailto:[log in to unmask]] On Behalf Of Karl Hagen
> > > Sent: Wednesday, March 11, 2015 12:15 PM
> > > To: [log in to unmask]
> > > Subject: Re: ATEG Digest - 9 Mar 2015 to 10 Mar 2015 (#2015-19)
> > >
> > > It depends on whether you regard voice to be a property of the verb or a structural pattern of a clause. The former is the assumption, implicit or otherwise, in most traditional grammar books. In the 19th century, intransitive verbs were often said to be in the "middle" voice to account for this gap. On the other hand, much work in modern linguistics takes the second analysis to be more accurate. As a type of clause, there's no real problem. You simply say that the active-voice pattern is the unmarked default, and hence applies to anything that is not passive voice.
> > >
> > >
> > >> On Mar 11, 2015, at 8:37 AM, Beth Young <[log in to unmask]> wrote:
> > >>
> > >> Interesting! Passive voice is something that only transitive verbs can have, but I've never considered active voice to be limited to transitive verbs. I've always considered all verbs that are conjugated with the formula "Tense + Modal (have + -en) (be + -ing) Main Verb" to be active voice, and verbs conjugated with the formula "Tense + Modal (have + -en) (be + -ing) + be + -en + Main Verb" to be passive voice. Otherwise, wouldn't many verbs have no voice at all? Maybe that doesn't matter.
> > >>
> > >> Hats off to any 8th grade teachers who wade into this question with
> > >> their students. :)
> > >>
> > >> Beth
> > >>
> > >> Dr. Beth Rapp Young
> > >> Associate Professor, English
> > >> [log in to unmask]
> > >>
> > >> University of Central Florida
> > >> "Reach for the Stars"
> > >> From: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar
> > To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web interface at: http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html and select "Join or leave the list"
> > Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/
> >
>
> To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web interface at:
> http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html
> and select "Join or leave the list"
>
> Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Date: Wed, 11 Mar 2015 14:42:49 -0400
> From: "Prof. Richard Grant WAU" <[log in to unmask]>
> Subject: Re: ATEG Digest - 9 Mar 2015 to 10 Mar 2015 (#2015-19)
>
> Take heart, Karl--not all have forgotten. Here's a reference from an
> Australian article referring to it as both 'middle voice' and 'ergative.'
>
> http://www.adelaide.edu.au/english-for-uni/passive-voice/actives_passives_er
> gatives_english_for_uni.pdf
>
> I've skimmed through the article but need to run off to an appointment. It
> should at least be food for thought.
>
> Richard
>
>
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar
> [mailto:[log in to unmask]] On Behalf Of Karl Hagen
> Sent: Wednesday, March 11, 2015 2:29 PM
> To: [log in to unmask]
> Subject: Re: ATEG Digest - 9 Mar 2015 to 10 Mar 2015 (#2015-19)
>
> I would answer no, but then I subscribe to the notion that passive voice is
> better understood as a clause type than as just a property of a verb, and
> transformation between active and passive equivalents isn't a sufficient way
> to understand the two. There are, for example, a few verbs that only occur
> in the passive voice. (He is reputed to be a misogynist; It is rumored that
> she will quit soon.)
>
> As I pointed out in an earlier message, though, traditional grammar often
> does assume that the passive voice is a property of the verb, and so would
> only call transitive verbs active. The nineteenth century grammars that I've
> looked at usually treat the voice of intransitives explicitly, by
> introducing a term like "middle voice." In the twentieth century, that
> distinction was dropped, as far as I can tell, but it wasn't replaced with
> anything. In other words, later works in the traditional paradigm finesse
> the issue by ignoring it.
>
> > On Mar 11, 2015, at 10:57 AM, Seth Katz <[log in to unmask]> wrote:
> >
> > Karl (and others):
> >
> > Does labeling a verb as being in the active voice imply that it is
> transitive, and therefore can be put in the passive voice?
> > That is, you can't put a non-accusative verb in the passive voice (e.g.
> "The plan landed"); so can such a verb be properly said to be in the active
> voice?
> > Or am I not understanding the notion of "voice" correctly?
> >
> > Seth Katz
> >
> > Dr. Seth Katz
> > Associate Professor
> > Associate Chair
> > Department of English
> > Bradley University
> > Peoria, IL 61625
> >
> > Executive Director / Faculty Advisor
> > Bradley University Hillel
> >
> > On Wed, Mar 11, 2015 at 12:50 PM, Karl Hagen <[log in to unmask]>
> wrote:
> > The stative/dynamic distinction is semantic (an expression of
> aspectuality), and I take passive voice to be primarily a syntactic
> construction.
> >
> > Although it's true that adjectival passives will always have a stative
> > interpretation, and that ambiguities such as B typically turn on
> > whether we understand the situation as stative or dynamic, it's also
> > the case that some passive-voice constructions can be stative (e.g,
> > "She is loved by everyone.")
> >
> > For your example, I take this to be an instance of a so-called
> unaccusative verb, along the lines of:
> >
> > The pilot landed the plane. / The plane landed.
> > The wind opened the door. / The door opened.
> > The sun dried up the fields. / The fields dried up.
> >
> > So I take your example to be active voice. In other words, the mere fact
> that the semantic role of the subject is something other than
> agent/instrument isn't sufficient to call something passive.
> >
> > > On Mar 11, 2015, at 10:09 AM, Hancock, Craig G <[log in to unmask]>
> wrote:
> > >
> > > Karl,
> > > Where would "stative" fit in?
> > > And how do we deal with something like "The fields dried up in the
> sun?"
> > >
> > > Craig
> > >
> > > -----Original Message-----
> > > From: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar
> > > [mailto:[log in to unmask]] On Behalf Of Karl Hagen
> > > Sent: Wednesday, March 11, 2015 12:15 PM
> > > To: [log in to unmask]
> > > Subject: Re: ATEG Digest - 9 Mar 2015 to 10 Mar 2015 (#2015-19)
> > >
> > > It depends on whether you regard voice to be a property of the verb or a
> structural pattern of a clause. The former is the assumption, implicit or
> otherwise, in most traditional grammar books. In the 19th century,
> intransitive verbs were often said to be in the "middle" voice to account
> for this gap. On the other hand, much work in modern linguistics takes the
> second analysis to be more accurate. As a type of clause, there's no real
> problem. You simply say that the active-voice pattern is the unmarked
> default, and hence applies to anything that is not passive voice.
> > >
> > >
> > >> On Mar 11, 2015, at 8:37 AM, Beth Young <[log in to unmask]> wrote:
> > >>
> > >> Interesting! Passive voice is something that only transitive verbs can
> have, but I've never considered active voice to be limited to transitive
> verbs. I've always considered all verbs that are conjugated with the formula
> "Tense + Modal (have + -en) (be + -ing) Main Verb" to be active voice, and
> verbs conjugated with the formula "Tense + Modal (have + -en) (be + -ing) +
> be + -en + Main Verb" to be passive voice. Otherwise, wouldn't many verbs
> have no voice at all? Maybe that doesn't matter.
> > >>
> > >> Hats off to any 8th grade teachers who wade into this question with
> > >> their students. :)
> > >>
> > >> Beth
> > >>
> > >> Dr. Beth Rapp Young
> > >> Associate Professor, English
> > >> [log in to unmask]
> > >>
> > >> University of Central Florida
> > >> "Reach for the Stars"
> > >> From: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar
> > To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web interface
> at: http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html and select "Join or leave
> the list"
> > Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/
> >
>
> To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web interface
> at:
> http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html
> and select "Join or leave the list"
>
> Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/
>
> _____
> This email has been scanned by WAU 3-Tier Anti-Virus/Anti-Spam System.
>
> To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web interface at:
> http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html
> and select "Join or leave the list"
>
> Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Date: Wed, 11 Mar 2015 20:17:08 -0400
> From: Nathalia Hardy <[log in to unmask]>
> Subject: Compound Sentences and Coordinating Conjunctions
>
> I am hoping you could help me solve a bit of a mystery. Some of my students have been taught that "so" is not a coordinating conjunction and should not be used to join two independent clauses. Unfortunately, none of them can explain this other than to say "their teacher said so." These are seventh and eighth grade students. They have been taught the mnemonic device FANBOY to remember the coordinating conjunctions and are holding firm in their "understanding." Am I missing something?
>
> Best,
>
> Nathalia Hardy
>
> To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web interface at:
> http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html
> and select "Join or leave the list"
>
> Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Date: Wed, 11 Mar 2015 21:19:22 -0400
> From: Jan Kammert <[log in to unmask]>
> Subject: Re: ATEG Digest - 9 Mar 2015 to 10 Mar 2015 (#2015-19)
>
>
>
>
> Is this the new Common Core test you're writing about? I wonder how many college English teachers will take a look at the online practice tests? I wonder if there is someone to complain to? As an 8th grade teacher, I am very concerned about the test.
> Jan
>
> ----- Original Message -----
>
> From: "Beth Young" <[log in to unmask]>
> To: [log in to unmask]
> Sent: Wednesday, March 11, 2015 7:44:13 AM
> Subject: Re: ATEG Digest - 9 Mar 2015 to 10 Mar 2015 (#2015-19)
>
>
> I agree! It's depressing to see how often a standardized assessment will include confusing questions. I recently took the online practice test for a 6th grade reading test, and according to the answer key, a bunch of my answers were wrong . . . except that they weren't. Not to sound egotistical, but if a college English teacher with a Ph.D. has trouble identifying the right answers on a 6th grade test, something is wrong with the test.
>
>
>
> Beth
>
> Dr. Beth Rapp Young
> Associate Professor, English
> [log in to unmask]
>
> University of Central Florida
> "Reach for the Stars"
>
>
>
>
>
> To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web interface at:
> http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html
> and select "Join or leave the list"
>
> Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Date: Wed, 11 Mar 2015 21:22:03 -0400
> From: Jan Kammert <[log in to unmask]>
> Subject: Re: ATEG Digest - 9 Mar 2015 to 10 Mar 2015 (#2015-19)
>
>
>
>
> Not only will students possibly have to take remedial classes, but for high school students, it might mean not graduating from high school, and in most states student test results affect teacher salaries.
> Jan
>
> ----- Original Message -----
>
> From: "Jack Dixon" <[log in to unmask]>
> To: [log in to unmask]
> Sent: Wednesday, March 11, 2015 7:59:33 AM
> Subject: Re: ATEG Digest - 9 Mar 2015 to 10 Mar 2015 (#2015-19)
>
>
>
> Yes, yes, yes. I think sometimes those tests, especially reading tests, are written to test certain kinds of texts and reading strategies. I am in TX, and my friends who teach in public schools complain that much of their professional development centers on strategies for passing the state tests.
>
> I still want to believe that the Kansas exam had a mis-keyed item on the answer key. If not, imagine the consequences if several similarly ambiguous items were on an exam that determines whether a student is working at grade level. Equally frightening would be the possibility that the results come with a diagnostic feature. If the student misses comparable questions on the difference between active and passive voice, then the student could be "remediated." What a waste.
>
>
>
>
>
> To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web interface at:
> http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html
> and select "Join or leave the list"
>
> Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/
>
> ------------------------------
>
> End of ATEG Digest - 11 Mar 2015 (#2015-21)
> *******************************************
To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web interface at:
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