Jean:

The use of articles, whether for native students or for international 
students, is a notoriously difficult problem because most students do 
not understand the article role in definiteness and deixis. I would 
leave such concepts for the most advanced students - probably those 
who are doing majors in language and linguistics.

Eduard 



On Mon, 21 Aug 2006, Jean Waldman wrote...

>Eduard,  I absolutely agree.  A noun is a car, a doll, a pencil, a 
cloud, a 
>chair.
>
>But these are not names of things.  Do we need to give a theoretical 
>definition to first graders?  If we do, we should find something 
better than 
>A noun is the name of a person, place or thing.  The student has to 
learn 
>this by rote because it doesn't mean anything.
>
>
>
>First graders have perfectly good brains.  If they couldn't make 
>generalizations and apply them, they would not know how to speak at 
all.  It 
>is the teachers who think the stuff they had to memorize as children 
is 
>simple.  It is amazing how much we believe when the people around us 
tell 
>it, and when they give examples we make the connection, even though 
it 
>defies logic.
>
>
>
>A proper noun is the name of a person, place, or thing.  Ellen and 
Barbara 
>and Bob are names.  When we get theoretical we can talk about naming 
words, 
>and talk about proper nouns, but not common nouns.
>
>
>
>Can we find a better way to talk about common nouns, one that will 
not leave 
>the students confused when they try to apply it in new situations?
>
>
>
>This definition leads to problems when the students are learning 
more 
>sophisticated uses of language.  The same system that talks about 
persons, 
>places, and things also talks about words called articles, which are 
only 
>three, a, an, and the.
>
>We need to be able to deal with a class of words that tell which 
car, or 
>doll, or pencil we want the child to bring to us.  These words can 
be 
>articles.  They can also be possessives, or demonstratives, or each, 
every, 
>which, what, or any.  These are the referential determiners, and 
usually 
>only one of these can be used before a noun.  There is another group 
of 
>determiners, quantifying determiners, that can be used alone or with 
>referential determiners to tell about the noun.
>
>
>
>I am not advocating teaching this to first grade students.  It can 
be very 
>important for international students who ask:  Sometimes you use a 
or an and 
>sometimes you use the, and sometimes you don't use anything at all.  
How can 
>we tell which one to use when?
>
>
>
>My argument is that if we don't want grammar to be confusing, we 
should not 
>give confusing definitions.   A noun is the name of a person, place, 
or 
>thing.  may be simple, but it does not provide clarity.  In fact, 
this 
>definition is confusing.
>
>
>
>Maybe we could say that a noun is a word that tells something about 
a 
>person, place, or thing.  Then later we can talk about groups and 
words that 
>help us find which one in the group.
>
>
>
>Maybe we can just provide examples.
>
>However, it's good to avoid giving lists of isolated words.  Paul's 
example 
>of the use of the word chair as a verb is one example of the reason 
this 
>system is confusing.
>
>
>
>It would be useful to help the students learn to identify the nouns 
in 
>sentences, and in the process they can discover a lot about nouns.
>
>
>
>We also need to have teachers who have dealt with various relevant 
theories 
>so they can help lead the students to understanding, instead of 
boring the 
>students with rote recitations.
>
>
>
>Whatever we do, let's not leave the students thinking grammar is the 
word 
>that comes before drills, or that grammar doesn't make any sense 
because the 
>definitions are irrelevant.
>
>
>
>Jean
>
>
>
>Jean Waldman, retired lecturer
>
>University of Maryland
>
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