And there is so much of interest and use that we can teach once we get
away from such mindless drill.  The gerund/infinitive contrast is just
one of these.  I can imagine an interesting lesson, one that grabs
student attention, built out of manipulating gerunds and infinitives,
finding out to what extent they can be substituted, and looking at what
that does to meaning.  An activity like that brings home the idea that
changes in form correlate with changes in meaning.

Herb

-----Original Message-----
From: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar
[mailto:[log in to unmask]] On Behalf Of Craig Hancock
Sent: 2008-03-18 09:26
To: [log in to unmask]
Subject: Re: gerund vs infinitive

Herb,
   I think you have indirectly answered the question. The assumption is
probably that she wouldn't like her own singing if she were not good at
it, so the infinitive doesn't make as much sense. (I know people who
love to sing but sound less than professional, but logically, I
suspect, the test maker believes that shouldn't be.)
   She likes listening to singing can be relaced by "singing", but not
by
"to sing". It's more ambigious (wider range).
   Of course, that makes the test itself rather goofy, since both are
grammatical and possibly pertinent, depending on context and intention,
which we are supposed to guess at.
   All this comes from believing that we shouldn't test direct knowledge
about language: for example, "which of the following contains an
infinitive as direct object?" Instead, the test makers' intuition is
supposed to measure ours as well.
   We are supposed to learn grammar without knowing it and know it
without
being taught. It is difficult (impossible?) to devise a sensible test
under those assumptions.

Craig




>

Linda,
>
>
>
> I'm not sure that this is a processing issue.  You're talking here
about
> reference and about how pronouns are indexed.  It is certainly the
case
> that we can't use a to-infinitive as object of a preposition, one of
the
> arguments for not calling all infinitives noun phrases.  The form that
> the VP will take in a particular environment tends to be tightly
> governed grammatically, so the more noun-like gerund will show up
after
> the preposition.  There are other differences between the sentences as
> well.  In A it isn't necessary that Miriam do the singing.  She likes
> listening to it but isn't good at singing herself.  B doesn't allow
that
> interpretation.  Miriam has to be interpreted as subject of "to sing."
> In A she's not necessarily in the church choir I direct.  In B she is,
> unfortunately.  The "it" can refer to either of these meanings.
>
>
>
> Herb
>
>
>
> From: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar
> [mailto:[log in to unmask]] On Behalf Of Linda Di Desidero
> Sent: 2008-03-17 12:22
> To: [log in to unmask]
> Subject: Re: gerund vs infinitive
>
>
>
> I think that the simple explanation for the preference of A over B
lies
> in the way in which hearers process the sentences. It is much easier
to
> substitute "singing" for "it" in A, but not in B.
>
>
>
> A: Miriam likes singing, but she is not good at it.
>
> Miriam likes singing, but she is not good at singing.
>
> B: Miriam likes to sing, but she is not good at it.
>
> *Miriam likes to sing, but she is not good at to sing.
>
>
>
> Linda
>
>
>
>
>
> -----------------------------------------------------
>
> Linda Di Desidero, Ph.D.
>
> Associate Professor
>
> Assistant Academic Director of Writing
>
> Communication, Arts, and Humanities
>
> University of Maryland University College
>
> 3501 University Boulevard East
>
> Adelphi, MD  20783-8083
>
>
>
> (240) 582-2830
>
> (240) 582-2993 (fax)
>
>
>
>
>
> ________________________________
>
> From: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar
> [mailto:[log in to unmask]] On Behalf Of STAHLKE, HERBERT F
> Sent: Sunday, March 16, 2008 11:35 PM
> To: [log in to unmask]
> Subject: Re: gerund vs infinitive
>
> Nancy,
>
>
>
> I like the fact that you treat verbness as a matter of degree, as, I
> assume, you would also treat nouns.  And you're right that a gerund is
> more nouny than an infinitive.  A lot of syntacticians would not even
> treat the infinitive in "likes to sing" as a noun phrase, simply as a
> tenseless VP serving as complement to "likes."  The drill question,
> however, like so many drill questions, oversimplifies matters.
> Reference doesn't have to be simply to a noun; it can be to a clause
or
> even to a contextual factor.  Consider a sentence like
>
>
>
> Finish a direct quotation with a period and quotation marks, in that
> order.
>
>
>
> The referent of "that" is clearly the order in which the two marks of
> punctuation are given, something that is not only not a noun phrase
but
> is arguably not even a grammatical structure.  It is, rather, an
ordered
> pair, and it's the order that counts.  In the second sentence in the
> drill, the referent of "that" is activity of singing, not a particular
> word or grammatical structure.  It might actually be possible to come
up
> with situations where one referent would make better sense than the
> other.
>
>
>
> Herb
>
>
>
> From: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar
> [mailto:[log in to unmask]] On Behalf Of Nancy Tuten
> Sent: 2008-03-16 23:13
> To: [log in to unmask]
> Subject: Re: gerund vs infinitive
>
>
>
> OK, why is it that I see my mistakes right after I hit send?
>
>
>
> Of course, both the infinitive and the gerund follow the verb "likes,"
> not a preposition. I have already sent a correction to Diane on that
> point, but the question still remains: is one a better referent than
the
> other, and, if so, why?
>
>
>
> Thanks,
>
> Nancy
>
>
>
> Nancy L. Tuten, PhD
>
> Professor of English
>
> Director of the Writing-across-the-Curriculum Program
>
> Columbia College
>
> Columbia, South Carolina
>
> [log in to unmask] <mailto:[log in to unmask]>
>
> 803-786-3706
>
>
>
>
>
> ________________________________
>
> From: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar
> [mailto:[log in to unmask]] On Behalf Of Nancy Tuten
> Sent: Sunday, March 16, 2008 10:44 PM
> To: [log in to unmask]
> Subject: gerund vs infinitive
>
>
>
> Dear listers,
>
>
>
> I received an inquiry from someone today and would like to know how
you
> would have responded to it had it been sent to you. The original post
is
> at the bottom, and my response is above it.
>
>
>
> Thanks for your feedback-I always learn a great deal from you.
>
>
>
> Nancy L. Tuten, PhD
>
> Professor of English
>
> Director of the Writing-across-the-Curriculum Program
>
> Columbia College
>
> Columbia, South Carolina
>
> [log in to unmask] <mailto:[log in to unmask]>
>
> 803-786-3706
>
>
>
> ________________________________
>
> From: Tuten, Nancy [mailto:[log in to unmask]]
> Sent: Sunday, March 16, 2008 7:11 PM
> To: diane skinner
> Cc: [log in to unmask]
> Subject: RE: gerund vs infinitive?
>
>
>
> Diane,
>
>
>
> You raise a very interesting question.
>
>
>
> I suspect that the test writers regard the gerund as a clearer
referent
> because you can replace "it" with the gerund and the sentence makes
> sense. We can say "She is not good at singing," but we cannot say "she
> is not good at to sing."
>
>
>
> Nonetheless, as you point out, both the gerund and the infinitive are
> functioning as nominals (objects of the preposition "like"). One
might,
> therefore, logically conclude that either would qualify as a clear
> referent for a pronoun.  Perhaps infinitives, although they can
function
> as nominals, retain more of their "verb-ness" than gerunds, which
quite
> strongly take on the quality of a thing or an act-something one could
> place a determiner in front of: "her singing," "the singing," etc. but
> not "her to sing," "the to sing."
>
>
>
> Thank you for attending our session at the STD conference.
>
>
>
> Best,
>
> Nancy
>
>
>
> Nancy Lewis Tuten, PhD
>
> Professor of English
>
> Director of the Writing Program for the
>
> Pearce Communication Center
>
> Columbia College
>
> 1301 Columbia College Drive
>
> Columbia, South Carolina 29203
>
> USA
>
> 803-786-3706
>
>
>
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: diane skinner [mailto:[log in to unmask]]
> Sent: Saturday, March 15, 2008 3:12 PM
> To: Tuten, Nancy
> Subject: gerund vs infinitive?
>
>
>
> Dear Professor Tuten,
>
>
>
> I met you at the Sigma Tau Delta Conference in your Grammar Panel.
>
>
>
> I have a question for you.
>
> In my writing center, during grammar drills, a computer-generated
>
> question asked,
>
>  "Which is the clearest referent for the pronoun in the following
> sentences?"
>
> A: Miriam likes singing, but she is not good at it.
>
> B: Miriam likes to sing, but she is not good at it.
>
>
>
> The answer was A, but no explanation was given.
>
> Could you please clarify this answer since the verbs can be followed
>
> by either an infinitive or a gerund, and there will be virtually no
>
> difference in the meaning of the two sentences.
>
>
>
> Does the infinitive "to sing" act as an object for the verb "likes,"
>
> or does it act as a verb to the linking verb "likes"?
>
> How can a distinction be made between a gerund being nominative and an
>
> infinitive being nominative?
>
> Is this a special case because of the word "likes"?
>
>
>
> When you have the time, I would sincerely appreciate a response.
>
>
>
> Thank you.
>
> Diane Skinner
>
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