As someone from a social-science background who teaches composition in
an English department, I've noted some similar issues. Years ago, at
another institution, I was teaching composition in a program that
mandated a particular textbook. It was all about literature, and the
essays I was supposed to use as models for argumentative writing were
literary essays (which in this case, meant that the authors were
distinctively, and productively, violating some of the major rules of
essay-writing, such as "have a clear thesis statement"). They *were*
good essays from a number of perspectives, but they weren't good in a
way that the students could emulate at that point in their writing
development, and would not have been publishable as anything other than
literary essays, in a venue devoted expressly to that genre.
Similarly (well, it's off-topic, but it IS similar....) course
objectives such as "Students will demonstrate that they value <insert
genre name here>" strike me as at best coercive and at worst deeply
creepy. I have no way of reading their minds, and what they think isn't
necessarily within my area of influence, although what they *do* can be.
I like Twain, but I'd rather have a student who said interesting things
about Twain and carefully analyzed his writing but didn't like it at all
than have a student who obligingly parroted the required opinion of
Twain. I told my science fiction class last semester that despite the
course objective that stated they had to value SF, I was more interested
in whether they could discuss and analyze the arguments for valuing SF
than with whether they agreed with those arguments or not.
In composition teaching, the problem with interpreting "writing" as if
it were equivalent to "writing about literature" isn't really one of
extending the academic into the realm of the practical, though. An
APA-style analysis of survey results is academic, but not literary. It's
more a side-effect of the somewhat haphazard conflation of literature
with composition in English departments, and the tendency for any group
to lose sight of the fact that what they value isn't automatically the
same as what other people do. If we replaced "academic" with "careful
and explicit exposition and argumentation that is suited to its purpose
and audience," we might have fewer problems.
Bill Spruiell
Dept. of English
Central Michigan University
-----Original Message-----
From: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar
[mailto:[log in to unmask]] On Behalf Of O'Sullivan, Brian P
Sent: Wednesday, June 03, 2009 3:55 PM
To: [log in to unmask]
Subject: Re: levels of formality/training wheels, NOW value of HS
education
A New York Times article,"New Push Seeks to End Need for Pre-College
Remedial Classes" (
http://www.nytimes.com/2009/05/28/education/28remedial.html?_r=1), was
interesting in light of Susan's recent critique of the focus on
"academic" knowledge in high school education. For me, one of Susan's
most persuasive points was this: "Students should have to know how to
write argumentatively to promote themselves or their causes, but not to
lie about why a piece of literature is meaningful because a teacher
decides they should believe that." The Times article touches on a
similar problem; it opens with an anecdote about a high school graduate
taking pre-college remedial courses because, among other problems, her
"senior English class...focused on literature, but little on writing."
To me, this illustrates that some of the so-called "academic" content
that Susan criticizes is just as ill-suited to the needs of future
college students as it is to the the needs of future plumbers. Many
freshman at my college don't take a literature course, but they all
write argumentatively in courses across the curriculum.
I think Susan might be right that the "permanent training wheels" some
of us have been worried about are the result of high schools'
overemphasis version of "academic writing." It seems to be a different
version, though, than what I recognize as academic writing in colleges
and universities. For example, Susan is probably right that the
prohibition on "I" is intended to "prevent beginning writers from being
redundant and from weakening the power of their arguments." But,
although I've occasionally heard college professors complain about the
overabundance of "I think" and "I feel" and though I have even
occasionally complained about it myself), I have more often heard and
made the complaint that students don't use" I" when appropriate and
don't put themselves into their writing in effective ways. If my
experience is representative (which, OK, is a big if), and if some high
school teachers are banning "I" because they're trying to teach academic
writing to "non-academic" students, then those high school teachers must
either mean something different from "college writing" or misunderstand
what college writing teachers value. (Let me acknowledge that Susan is
not one of "those high school teachers"; she's made it clear that she
teaches students to use "I" when relating personal experiences.)
So, as I think Herb suggested earlier, the problem of training wheel
permanence, so to speak, may have a lot to do with lack of
communication between high school teachers and college teachers. If both
groups could agree on what they mean by "academic writing," or even
"good writing," we might be able to lay down clearer paths for students.
And I do think that conversations like this can help.
Brian
_
From: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar
[[log in to unmask]] On Behalf Of Susan van Druten
[[log in to unmask]]
Sent: Tuesday, June 02, 2009 8:52 PM
To: [log in to unmask]
Subject: Re: levels of formality/training wheels, NOW value of HS
education
Peter, I think we should be concerned about teachers who present
"training wheels" as real life. However, I think it might be wise to
consider why those teachers do this.
My guess is that they are inundated with students who don't ever want
to "ride a bike" in their entire lives, but are forced to act like
they want to "ride a bike" because society values bike-riding over
carpentry, plumbing, or whatever hands-on skill or craft they excel
at. In other words, we all have to stop believing that people who
can't write an academic essay shouldn't get a high school diploma.
Clearly, the "training wheel" analogy really messes with my point.
If anyone is confused, let me be more clear: If we force all 18-year-
old human beings to write academically in order to pass high school
(or any bar that equates to sentience), then we will produce teachers
who will create stupid short-cuts to get non-academically-inclined
teens to produce something that is tolerable. If playing hockey,
instead of academic writing, were the goal for a high school diploma,
you can imagine all the coaches telling the non-athletically-inclined
teens that they are good hockey players if they just do their best to
pass the puck to Lutska.
We should rethink what high schools should require and how long a
student should be required to attend (I think 8th grade is a better
minimum). We need to teach math so that students can balance a check
book and know why carrying a balance on a credit card is stupid.
Students should have to know how to write argumentatively to promote
themselves or their causes, but not to lie about why a piece of
literature is meaningful because a teacher decides they should
believe that.
We should value education. But we have to stop only equating
academics with education. There are plenty of non-academic fields
that we need. After all, most academic jobs could be shipped
overseas, but we need to have "in-house" plumbers.
Susan
On Jun 2, 2009, at 6:49 PM, Peter Adams wrote:
> The argument Susan makes for banning the use of first person strikes
> me as a perfect example of training wheels. There is a possible
> construction involving first person that we might prefer students
> avoid. Rather than teach students to avoid that construction, we
> simply ban all uses of first person.
>
> That bothers me.
>
> Peter Adams
>
> On Jun 2, 2009, at 6:59 PM, Susan van Druten wrote:
>
>> One of the reasons for the ban on first person in essays is to
>> prevent beginning writers from being redundant and from weakening
>> the power of their arguments. "I believe," "I feel," and "I think"
>> shouldn't preface every idea expressed. I tell my students to use
>> first person only when relating personal experiences in their essays.
>>
>> Susan
>>
>>
>> On Jun 2, 2009, at 10:23 AM, Craig Hancock wrote:
>>
>>> Peter,
>>> Contractions are a routine part of all the formal writing I do. I
>>> have
>>> yet to have an editor object. I edited a literary magazine through
>>> four
>>> issues and never took issue with it.
>>> I would also take issue with the idea that all our ideas should be
>>> impersonal and/or expressed in impersonal ways. That may be a
>>> reasonable goal in many of the sciences--it doesn't matter, I
>>> suppose,
>>> who keeps a specimen at 80 degrees for three hours--but I can't for
>>> the
>>> life of me separate my understanding of teaching writing from my own
>>> schooling or the wealth of my experiences in the classroom. I don't
>>> have "logical" views about it separate from my values and
>>> experiences.
>>> It seems silly for me to say "When one teaches educational
>>> opportunity
>>> program students for twenty-three years" when I'm trying to
>>> characterize my own background. Other people may have opinions about
>>> it, but I have a perspective. It seems to me that asking students to
>>> avoid "I" in subjects like this means we are asking them to avoid
>>> being
>>> honest about where their views are coming from. This also
>>> shortchanges
>>> the dialectical nature of most writing. If a student has grown up
>>> with
>>> a hunting rifle in his hands and another has seen someone shot by a
>>> fellow teenager on a playground, they will be unable to talk unless
>>> those differing experiences can be acknowledged as legitimate.
>>> We are not logical machines, and most subjects don't benefit from
>>> pretending to leave our values and experiences at the door. Quite
>>> often, the "reasons" we give for our beliefs are after the fact.
>>>
>>> Craig
>>>
>>>
>>> I've never understood some teachers' constraints on first person,
>>> so I
>>>> look forward to reading the replies to Paul's post.
>>>>
>>>> I also wonder about contractions. I tell my students that they
>>>> shouldn't use them in very formal writing or when writing to an
>>>> audience that thinks they shouldn't be used. I also tell them I've
>>>> never written anything in my life that was so formal that I avoided
>>>> contractions. Where do others stand on this?
>>>>
>>>> Peter Adams
>>>>
>>>> On Jun 1, 2009, at 9:01 AM, Paul E. Doniger wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> In requiring students to write some papers in "formal English," I
>>>>> often come across some gray areas. My tendancy is to be somewhat
>>>>> conservative about formal language. I wonder where others draw
>>>>> lines regarding levels of formality. For example, some of my
>>>>> students use words that seem too informal to me, like
>>>>> "morph" (verb
>>>>> form). Also, I know we have discussed the use of the first person
>>>>> before, but I think it is sometimes valuable to challenge students
>>>>> to write persuasive pieces that avoid using the first person
>>>>> altogether. Where do the rest of you stand on such issues?
>>>>>
>>>>> Thanks,
>>>>>
>>>>> Paul E. Doniger
>>>>>
>>>>> "If this were play'd upon a stage now, I could condemn it as an
>>>>> improbable fiction" (_Twelfth Night_ 3.4.127-128).
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> From: Scott Woods <[log in to unmask]>
>>>>> To: [log in to unmask]
>>>>> Sent: Sunday, May 31, 2009 6:45:07 PM
>>>>> Subject: Re: Class size ATEG Digest - 28 May 2009 to 29 May 2009 -
>>>>> Special issue (#2009-127)
>>>>>
>>>>> Herb,
>>>>>
>>>>> I wasn't clear. Currently, for seventh grade English, I teach
>>>>> four
>>>>> groups of students for a total of 112 students. I meet with each
>>>>> group five times each week. I think that I could get better
>>>>> results
>>>>> by meeting with all the groups together on some days and with each
>>>>> group separately on others. This would reduce total student
>>>>> contact
>>>>> hours for me, but not for them. With 28 total contact hours per
>>>>> week next year (I teach other classes as well), I would benefit
>>>>> from
>>>>> reducing my contact load and spending that time planning,
>>>>> developing
>>>>> lessons, and responding to writing.
>>>>>
>>>>> Scott
>>>>>
>>>>> --- On Sun, 5/31/09, STAHLKE, HERBERT F <[log in to unmask]> wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>> From: STAHLKE, HERBERT F <[log in to unmask]>
>>>>> Subject: Re: Class size ATEG Digest - 28 May 2009 to 29 May 2009 -
>>>>> Special issue (#2009-127)
>>>>> To: [log in to unmask]
>>>>> Date: Sunday, May 31, 2009, 1:21 PM
>>>>>
>>>>> Scott,
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> I'm not join this debate because I don't know the research on
>>>>> either
>>>>> side, but meeting one group of 112 students twice a week rather
>>>>> than
>>>>> four groups of 28 students twice a week for each group strikes me
>>>>> as
>>>>> simply a different way of handling the same student-teacher ratio.
>>>>> Meeting four groups of 112 students twice a week for each group
>>>>> seems a more apt contrast. Or you could lower that to four groups
>>>>> of 42 or 56 students. The result would be much less writing and
>>>>> much less response to writing.
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> Herb
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> From: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar
>>>>> [mailto:[log in to unmask]
>>>>> ] On Behalf Of Scott Woods
>>>>> Sent: 2009-05-31 11:11
>>>>> To: [log in to unmask]
>>>>> Subject: Re: Class size ATEG Digest - 28 May 2009 to 29 May 2009 -
>>>>> Special issue (#2009-127)
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> Paul,
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> I would be interested in seeing research that shows a strong link
>>>>> between reducing class size and increasing performance. The
>>>>> research
>>>>> I have seen strongly suggests that the most important factor in
>>>>> improving student performance is changing what teachers do.
>>>>> Reducing class size can reduce the amount of disruption in a
>>>>> class,
>>>>> but there is little research base (that I have seen) to suggest
>>>>> that
>>>>> if we reduced the size of every class in the country to 15
>>>>> students
>>>>> that much would change in what students know and can do.
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> As an English teacher, I would prefer having fewer total students,
>>>>> but I could probably teach as well if, at least twice a week, I
>>>>> had
>>>>> all 112 of my students in a lecture hall together. That would
>>>>> give
>>>>> me eight hours of extra time to respond thoughtfully to their
>>>>> writing.
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> Scott Woods
>>>>>
>>>>> BASIS Scottsdale
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> --- On Fri, 5/29/09, Paul E. Doniger <[log in to unmask]> wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> From: Paul E. Doniger [log in to unmask]
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> Yes! And all research in education that I've ever seen agrees that
>>>>> class size is a vital component in successful learning. This is
>>>>> especially important to the writing classroom.
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> Paul E. Doniger
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> "If this were play'd upon a stage now, I could condemn it as an
>>>>> improbable fiction" (_Twelfth Night_ 3.4.127-128).
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> From: Scott <[log in to unmask]>
>>>>> To: [log in to unmask]
>>>>> Sent: Friday, May 29, 2009 8:30:56 PM
>>>>> Subject: Re: Class size ATEG Digest - 28 May 2009 to 29 May 2009 -
>>>>> Special issue (#2009-127)
>>>>>
>>>>> I too am normally reluctant to classify a remark as stupid;
>>>>> however,
>>>>> the list member who indicated that class size was irrelevant in
>>>>> teaching
>>>>> writing must have been brought up by a school board member. My
>>>>> alma
>>>>> mater,
>>>>> MSC, whose regular Freshman English program I have praised
>>>>> highly, had
>>>>> a secondary program in basic writing skills for those who had
>>>>> failed
>>>>> the
>>>>> English placement exam. I had scored a 100 in the exam but my
>>>>> advisor had
>>>>> accidentally put my test in the "Dummy English" pile; therefore, I
>>>>> had to
>>>>> take a non-credit English class on the same semester as my first
>>>>> Freshman
>>>>> English class. My advisor apologized to me later but I replied
>>>>> that
>>>>> I had
>>>>> learned more in Dummy English than in regular English because the
>>>>> class size
>>>>> was quite small--around ten students--and we wrote a theme each
>>>>> day
>>>>> instead
>>>>> of one a week. The professor in the Dummy Class was also an
>>>>> excellent
>>>>> teacher.
>>>>>
>>>>> Having taught across the academic curriculum, I can aver that, in
>>>>> my
>>>>> experience, class size is more important in English composition
>>>>> than
>>>>> in any
>>>>> other academic class, including mathematics and foreign languages.
>>>>>
>>>>> N. Scott Catledge, PhD/STD
>>>>> Professor Emeritus
>>>>>
>>>>> ******************************************************************
>>>>> *********
>>>>>
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