Cynthia had lived in Nashville for ten years before she moved to Toronto.
Scott Catledge
-----Original Message-----
From: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar
[mailto:[log in to unmask]] On Behalf Of ATEG automatic digest system
Sent: Monday, March 09, 2009 12:09 AM
To: [log in to unmask]
Subject: ATEG Digest - 6 Mar 2009 to 8 Mar 2009 (#2009-53)
There are 3 messages totalling 329 lines in this issue.
Topics of the day:
1. On the road to Nashville (2)
2. incorrect future perfect?
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Date: Sun, 8 Mar 2009 12:44:59 -0700
From: Brad Johnston <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: On the road to Nashville
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When Cynthia got to Nashville, she had been driving for 8 hours. (past perf=
ect)
=A0
When Cynthia gets to Nashville, she will have been=A0driving for 8 hours. (=
future perfect)
=A0
Whee. Here she is=A0in Nashville. She's=A0been on the road for 8 hours. (pr=
esent perfect)
=A0
Cynthia has lived in Nashville for 10 years <and still does>. (present perf=
ect)
=A0
Cynthia=A0lived in Nashville for 10 years <but now lives in Toronto>.=A0(si=
mple past)
=A0
Note that the past perfect is not the past of the present perfect. If she n=
ow lives in Toronto, we say "she lived", we do not say, "she had lived".
=A0
Is it possible to conjure=A0context that compels, "she had lived"? Yes, of =
course. If you have enough shoe polish, you can make a polar bear into a br=
own bear, but as it stands,=A0if she now lives in Toronto we say, "Cynthia =
lived in Nashville for 10 years".=0A=0A=0A
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Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
<table cellspacing=3D"0" cellpadding=3D"0" border=3D"0" ><tr><td valign=3D"=
top" style=3D"font: inherit;"><DIV id=3Dyiv1995530998>
<DIV id=3Dyiv1823522366>
<DIV>When Cynthia got to Nashville, she had been driving for 8 hours. (past=
perfect)</DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV>When Cynthia gets to Nashville, she will have been driving for 8 =
hours. (future perfect)</DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV>Whee. Here she is in Nashville. She's been on the road for 8=
hours. (present perfect)</DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV>Cynthia has lived in Nashville for 10 years <and still does>. (p=
resent perfect)</DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV>Cynthia lived in Nashville for 10 years <but now lives in Toro=
nto>. (simple past)</DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV>Note that the past perfect is not the past of the present perfect. If =
she now lives in Toronto, we say "she lived", we do not say, "she had lived=
".</DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV>Is it possible to conjure context that compels, "she had lived"? =
Yes, of course. If you have enough shoe polish, you can make a polar bear i=
nto a brown bear, but as it stands, if she now lives in Toronto we say=
, "Cynthia <U>lived</U> in Nashville for 10 years".</DIV></DIV></DIV></td><=
/tr></table><br>=0A=0A
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<p>
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--0-1185809081-1236541499=:42093--
------------------------------
Date: Sun, 8 Mar 2009 13:42:44 -0700
From: "Wollin, Edith" <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Re: On the road to Nashville
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------------------------------
Date: Sun, 8 Mar 2009 20:25:29 -0700
From: Cynthia Baird <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Re: incorrect future perfect?
--0-606721232-1236569129=:56590
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You don't understand. There was no context.=C2=A0 There was no further info=
rmation, which is why this sentence was problematic to me.=C2=A0There was n=
o paragraph, no narrative, no other action.=C2=A0 =C2=A0I understand the ne=
ed for context and other actions.=C2=A0 This was an isolated sentence in a =
textbook. The exercise was designed to teach the use of the helping verb "h=
ave."=C2=A0 I think the textbook could have chosen a better example.
=C2=A0
--- On Thu, 3/5/09, STAHLKE, HERBERT F <[log in to unmask]> wrote:
From: STAHLKE, HERBERT F <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Re: incorrect future perfect?
To: [log in to unmask]
Date: Thursday, March 5, 2009, 11:07 AM
The various uses of perfect aspect typically require a context to be interp=
reted, or even to be judged correct or not.=C2=A0 Part of the reason for th=
e context-dependence of perfect aspect is that it tends to be used in backg=
round rather than foreground portions of a discourse, so in narrative it wo=
n=E2=80=99t typically move the plot forward and in exposition or argument i=
t won=E2=80=99t be used to state major steps in the logic.=C2=A0=20
=C2=A0
I=E2=80=99d have to see your sample sentence in a context to see whether it=
works or not.=C2=A0 There=E2=80=99s nothing intrinsically wrong with the s=
tructure as it stands.=C2=A0 Rather, it requires further information to be =
fully interpretable.
=C2=A0
Herb
=C2=A0
From: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar [mailto:[log in to unmask]
OHIO.EDU] On Behalf Of Cynthia Baird
Sent: 2009-03-04 21:48
To: [log in to unmask]
Subject: incorrect future perfect?
=C2=A0
Would anyone care to comment on this sentence?=C2=A0 It came up in a litera=
cy textbook I have to use, and a student had real difficulty with accepting=
this as a logical sentence.=C2=A0 I gave him my explanation about why I th=
ought the sentence was problematic, but I would like to hear from some of y=
ou to know if I was right or wrong in my assessment of the sentence.
=C2=A0
The sentence read as follows:
=C2=A0
We will have finished the project tomorrow.
=C2=A0
I know the sentence contains a future perfect, and I risk Brad's comments, =
but so be it.
To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web interface =
at: http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html and select "Join or leave=
the list"=20
Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/To join or leave this LISTSERV lis=
t, please visit the list's web interface at: http://listserv.muohio.edu/arc=
hives/ateg.html and select "Join or leave the list"=20
Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/ =0A=0A=0A
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--0-606721232-1236569129=:56590
Content-Type: text/html; charset=utf-8
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
<table cellspacing=3D"0" cellpadding=3D"0" border=3D"0" ><tr><td valign=3D"=
top" style=3D"font: inherit;"><DIV>You don't understand. There was no conte=
xt. There was no further information, which is why this sentence was =
problematic to me. There was no paragraph, no narrative, no other acti=
on. I understand the need for context and other actions. =
This was an isolated sentence in a textbook. The exercise was designed to t=
each the use of the helping verb "have." I think the textbook could h=
ave chosen a better example.</DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV><BR>--- On <B>Thu, 3/5/09, STAHLKE, HERBERT F <I><[log in to unmask]&=
gt;</I></B> wrote:<BR></DIV>
<BLOCKQUOTE style=3D"PADDING-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; BORDER-LEFT: rgb(=
16,16,255) 2px solid">From: STAHLKE, HERBERT F <[log in to unmask]><BR>=
Subject: Re: incorrect future perfect?<BR>To: [log in to unmask]<BR>D=
ate: Thursday, March 5, 2009, 11:07 AM<BR><BR>
<DIV id=3Dyiv1865571905>
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<DIV class=3DSection1>
<P class=3DMsoNormal><SPAN style=3D"FONT-SIZE: 11pt; COLOR: #1f497d; FONT-F=
AMILY: 'Calibri', 'sans-serif'">The various uses of perfect aspect typicall=
y require a context to be interpreted, or even to be judged correct or not.=
Part of the reason for the context-dependence of perfect aspect is t=
hat it tends to be used in background rather than foreground portions of a =
discourse, so in narrative it won=E2=80=99t typically move the plot forward=
and in exposition or argument it won=E2=80=99t be used to state major step=
s in the logic. </SPAN></DIV>
<P class=3DMsoNormal><SPAN style=3D"FONT-SIZE: 11pt; COLOR: #1f497d; FONT-F=
AMILY: 'Calibri', 'sans-serif'"> </SPAN></DIV>
<P class=3DMsoNormal><SPAN style=3D"FONT-SIZE: 11pt; COLOR: #1f497d; FONT-F=
AMILY: 'Calibri', 'sans-serif'">I=E2=80=99d have to see your sample sentenc=
e in a context to see whether it works or not. There=E2=80=99s nothin=
g intrinsically wrong with the structure as it stands. Rather, it req=
uires further information to be fully interpretable.</SPAN></DIV>
<P class=3DMsoNormal><SPAN style=3D"FONT-SIZE: 11pt; COLOR: #1f497d; FONT-F=
AMILY: 'Calibri', 'sans-serif'"> </SPAN></DIV>
<P class=3DMsoNormal><SPAN style=3D"FONT-SIZE: 11pt; COLOR: #1f497d; FONT-F=
AMILY: 'Calibri', 'sans-serif'">Herb</SPAN></DIV>
<P class=3DMsoNormal><SPAN style=3D"FONT-SIZE: 11pt; COLOR: #1f497d; FONT-F=
AMILY: 'Calibri', 'sans-serif'"> </SPAN></DIV>
<DIV style=3D"BORDER-RIGHT: medium none; PADDING-RIGHT: 0in; BORDER-TOP: #b=
5c4df 1pt solid; PADDING-LEFT: 0in; PADDING-BOTTOM: 0in; BORDER-LEFT: mediu=
m none; PADDING-TOP: 3pt; BORDER-BOTTOM: medium none">
<P class=3DMsoNormal><B><SPAN style=3D"FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: 'Tahom=
a', 'sans-serif'">From:</SPAN></B><SPAN style=3D"FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMI=
LY: 'Tahoma', 'sans-serif'"> Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar [=
mailto:[log in to unmask]] <B>On Behalf Of </B>Cynthia Baird<BR><B>Se=
nt:</B> 2009-03-04 21:48<BR><B>To:</B> [log in to unmask]<BR><B>Subje=
ct:</B> incorrect future perfect?</SPAN></DIV></DIV>
<P class=3DMsoNormal> </DIV>
<TABLE class=3DMsoNormalTable cellSpacing=3D0 cellPadding=3D0 border=3D0>
<TBODY>
<TR>
<TD style=3D"PADDING-RIGHT: 0in; PADDING-LEFT: 0in; PADDING-BOTTOM: 0in; PA=
DDING-TOP: 0in" vAlign=3Dtop>
<DIV>
<P class=3DMsoNormal>Would anyone care to comment on this sentence? I=
t came up in a literacy textbook I have to use, and a student had real diff=
iculty with accepting this as a logical sentence. I gave him my expla=
nation about why I thought the sentence was problematic, but I would like t=
o hear from some of you to know if I was right or wrong in my assessment of=
the sentence.</DIV></DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=3DMsoNormal> </DIV></DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=3DMsoNormal>The sentence read as follows:</DIV></DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=3DMsoNormal> </DIV></DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=3DMsoNormal>We will have finished the project tomorrow.</DIV></DIV=
>
<DIV>
<P class=3DMsoNormal> </DIV></DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=3DMsoNormal>I know the sentence contains a future perfect, and I r=
isk Brad's comments, but so be it.</DIV></DIV></TD></TR></TBODY></TABLE>
<P class=3DMsoNormal><SPAN style=3D"FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: 'Calibri'=
, 'sans-serif'"><BR>To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the l=
ist's web interface at: http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html and s=
elect "Join or leave the list" </SPAN></DIV>
<DIV>Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/</DIV></DIV>To join or leave =
this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web interface at: http://listse=
rv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html and select "Join or leave the list"=20
<DIV>Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/ </DIV></DIV></BLOCKQUOTE></t=
d></tr></table><br>=0A=0A=0A=0A
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------------------------------
End of ATEG Digest - 6 Mar 2009 to 8 Mar 2009 (#2009-53)
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