Edmond,

I suspect your example might represent the vector along which the remote past usage developed.

Herb

Herbert F. W. Stahlke, Ph.D.
Emeritus Professor of English
Ball State University
Muncie, IN  47306
[log in to unmask]
________________________________________
From: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar [[log in to unmask]] On Behalf Of Edmond Wright [[log in to unmask]]
Sent: December 3, 2009 2:50 PM
To: [log in to unmask]
Subject: Re: thinking of Brad

> One could have a standard use of the third example Herbert gave:

I had applied last year, but by December it became obvious my letter had not
got through, so I wrote again this year.

Edmond


Dr. Edmond Wright
3 Boathouse Court
Trafalgar Road
Cambridge
CB4 1DU
England

Email: [log in to unmask]
Website: http://people.pwf.cam.ac.uk/elw33/
Phone [00 44] (0)1223 350256





Assuming that this is a straight question of clarification, I'll try
> clarifying.
>
> their usage is making a grammatical distinction that Standard English marks
> lexically
>
> Many Bantu languages, as well as lots of other languages, make a morphological
> distinction between immediate past and remote past, using different prefixes
> to mark them.  Standard English marks this distinction, when it does,
> lexically, that is, by adding time adverbs, for example, contrasting
>
> I just left.  (immediate past)
>
> with
>
> I left last year.  (remote past)
>
> "I left," by itself, doesn't make clear when in the past the action took
> place.
>
> Many varieties of non-standard English do make the distinction grammatically,
> and for these speakers the second example above would have to be
>
> I had left last year.
>
> because the time of the action is remote.  This is not a standard use of the
> past perfect and is, in the varieties that use it, not a past perfect but a
> remote past.
>
> they have little trouble adapting to the more formal academic register
>
> It is usually a not too difficult matter to explain in class that informal
> spoken English, what's commonly called "colloquial English," uses "had + pp"
> in this way Standard English does not.  Students are usually interested in
> learning about differences between the English they use informally and
> Standard English.  I used "formal academic register" to specify the variety of
> Standard English I would be dealing with if I were to make such an explanation
> in the classroom.
>
> Note that the remote past grammatical structure marked by "had + pp" is
> distinct from the past perfect even in the speech of speakers who use it
> habitually.  They will also use past perfect in conventional ways, so we
> could, perhaps, speak of the past perfect taking on an additional "remote
> past" meaning in these varieties of English.
>
> I hope this clarifies and doesn't cause further confusion.
>
> Herb
>
> Herbert F. W. Stahlke, Ph.D.
> Emeritus Professor of English
> Ball State University
> Muncie, IN  47306
> [log in to unmask]
> ________________________________________
> From: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar [[log in to unmask]]
> On Behalf Of Brad Johnston [[log in to unmask]]
> Sent: December 2, 2009 7:09 PM
> To: [log in to unmask]
> Subject: Re: thinking of Brad
>
> --- On Mon, 11/30/09, STAHLKE, HERBERT F <[log in to unmask]> wrote:
> This does look like an instance of the increasingly common but still marginal
> use of had+pp to mark remote past, in contrast to the simple past marking a
> more recent past.  I've run into this fairly often in the speech and writing
> of my students ...
>
> I get it down to here but would someone please tell me what the rest of Herb's
> message means?
>
> ... and when they understand that their usage is making a grammatical
> distinction that Standard English marks lexically if at all they have little
> trouble adapting to the more formal academic register.
>
> .brad.01dec09.
>
> ~~~~~
>
> Hi everyone,
>
> I just spoke with a member of the community (a very nice 81yo man) who called
> the dept to ask a grammar question, and Brad, I thought of you. :)  The caller
> read to me from a letter from his congressman that began with this sentence:
>
> "In the past, you had contacted me in regard to the Obama/Pelosi healthcare
> bill."
>
> The caller wanted to know the name of "that tense that uses 'had'."  I think
> he was planning to write back to his congressman and tell him to make better
> verb choices.
>
> Beth
>
>
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