Ed,
   It was AFTER he wrote those words that David Milroy was invited to be
our keynote speaker. I was delighted to meet him then and delighted
that he was with us at our recent conference. I certainly don't want to
speak for David, who is perfectly capable of speaking for himself, but
he seems to think we are at least capable of redemeption. I am
delighted to have among us strong voices for the value of traditional
grammar.

Craig>


Three years ago an individual wrote in a book the following words
> about the ATEG forum:
>
> "As previously mentioned, there is a group within the NCTE, the
> Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar, or ATEG, that advocates
> greater emphasis on grammar in the language arts. The group is small,
> but gradually growing in numbers and influence. As more and more
> state standards prescribe the teaching of grammar, its stock is
> destined to rise. In my opinion, however, the ATEG's efficacy at the
> present time is limited by its own members' negative view of
> traditional instruction in grammar. As a general rule, they take it
> for granted that the traditional teaching of grammar was radically
> flawed and that what is needed is not just a restoration of grammar
> but the discovery of some new way to teach it. There is little
> agreement on what this new approach should be. As in Erasmus' time,
> there are as many grammars as grammarians."
>
> Some other constructive criticism which would prove extremely useful
> for this group was presented in the same book. Any idea who the
> author is and how his perspective and experience would help move this
> forum forward?
>
>
> Eduard
>
>
>
> On Tue, 18 Jul 2006, Tim Hadley wrote...
>
>>I must add my agreement to the statements of Craig and Paul
> regarding =
>>the wonderful conference that we just concluded. It was filled with =
>>terrific presentations, stimulating discussions, and also
> disagreement =
>>(yet at all times cordial) over concepts, purposes, =
>>and--yes--terminology. It was a fabulous experience in every respect.
>>=20
>>Also, I am not in agreement with those who feel that they are not =
>>welcome to post comments on this listserv, or with those who fear
> that =
>>others might "violently" respond to what they have to say. It is
> true =
>>that online forums occasionally render written words into tones and =
>>implied meanings that are unintentionally harsh, beyond what the
> writer =
>>wanted to convey, and people sometimes get their feelings hurt =
>>unnecessarily. But in comparison to other professional groups I have
> =
>>regular contact with, even within the English field, I have found
> ATEG =
>>to be a remarkably cordial and welcoming group. No one should feel =
>>unwelcome, and if you could have attended our most recent
> conference, =
>>you would have seen that demonstrated in a much more personal way.
>>=20
>>As Paul said, in our efforts to reinvigorate grammar instruction in
> both =
>>the public schools and in the colleges, there will certainly and =
>>unavoidably be some disagreement among us as to methods, strategies,
> =
>>terminologies, and all sorts of other things. In some of these areas
> we =
>>are just in the beginning stages of formulating action plans and
> formal =
>>documents. Disagreements should not disturb us; they are the grist
> in =
>>the mill of progress, the motivation to press on, the impetus for
> more =
>>and better ideas, the stimulus that keeps us alert and thinking.
> (How's =
>>that for a good Christensen sentence, eh, Don Stewart?)
>>=20
>>So, as Craig, in his usual eloquent and gentle way, said, let's not
> be =
>>sidetracked simply because we are not at this point in 100%
> agreement =
>>about everything, especially terminology. This year's conference
> made =
>>amazing progress toward some very worthy goals. Let's build on that =
>>foundation and move forward.
>>=20
>>Tim
>>=20
>>Tim Hadley
>>Research Assistant, The Graduate School
>>Ph.D. candidate, Technical Communication and Rhetoric
>>Texas Tech University
>>Editor, ATEG Journal
>>
>>________________________________
>>
>>From: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar on behalf of Paul
> E. =
>>Doniger
>>Sent: Tue 7/18/2006 12:52 PM
>>To: [log in to unmask]
>>Subject: Re: ATEG conference, Scope and Sequence project
>>
>>
>>If anyone thinks we are "drifting back to the NCTE perspective on =
>>grammar," perhaps it would have been a good idea to attend the
> recentl =
>>ATEG Conference and listen to Martha Kolln's eloquent keynote
> speech. =
>>Such an experience would have disabused you of this very wrong
> notion. =
>>We agree to disagree about terminology and perhaps methodology, but
> we =
>>very much are making strong efforts to reinvigorate grammar
> instruction =
>>in both the public schools and in teacher education.
>>=20
>>Paul E. Doniger
>>
>>
>>----- Original Message ----
>>From: Eduard C. Hanganu <[log in to unmask]>
>>To: [log in to unmask]
>>Sent: Tuesday, July 18, 2006 10:04:30 AM
>>Subject: Re: ATEG conference, Scope and Sequence project
>>
>>
>>Ed,
>>
>>I have to agree with you. It seems that this group has lost its
> focus=20
>>and is drifting back to the NCTE perspective on grammar. There is
> an=20
>>amazing confusion concerning the metalanguage of grammar, or what
> you=20
>>call a " specific set of defined terms." Grammar perspectives are
> all=20
>>mixed-up into a hodge-podge of traditional, structural,
> generative,=20
>>cognitive and anti-grammatical dogmas. A forum participant even
> wrote=20
>>in a post that he did not know what grammar was.=20
>>
>>What is worse, I believe, is that there is no discussion openness
> in=20
>>the forum. People sent messages to me stating that they were
> afraid=20
>>to post on the forum because they were afraid of the violent
> reaction=20
>>they would get from a few individuals who believe that they have a=20
>>monopoly on the exchange of ideas.=20
>>
>>Quite often discussions drift into linguistic diatribes which I
> don't=20
>>believe benefit in any way those who struggle to put together a=20
>>coherent approach to teaching grammar in public school. I wonder=20
>>sometimes what are the "experts" in Linguistics doing on this
> forum=20
>>which is dedicated to the "good old grammar." If they want to
> engage=20
>>in deep linguistic discussions, why don't they post on the
> Linguist=20
>>List, or some other specilized linguistic forums? I am a member of=20
>>the Linguist List, and I go there for linguistics. On the other
> hand,=20
>>I come here for practical suggestions teachers and instructors
> need=20
>>when they teach English Composition.
>>
>>I recognize that some messages I posted on the forum have not been=20
>>very friendly, but the vicious reaction to them and the fact that=20
>>from that moment I became a persona non grata is evidence to me
> that=20
>>the forum has lost its fundamental scientific characteristic - the=20
>>free circulation of ideas, and open participation and coooperation=20
>>among its members.=20
>>
>>If 20 years of existence and activity of this forum has had so
> little=20
>>effect on the grammar education of teachers and instructors, what
> is=20
>>that we should expect from the future when there appears to be
> less=20
>>and less consensus about the major objectives and approaches to
> the=20
>>goal of changes the current anti-grammarian perspective in the
> NCTE=20
>>and in the American education in general?
>>
>>Eduard =20
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>On Mon, 17 Jul 2006, Edward Vavra wrote...
>>
>>>     I basically lost interest in this group (even though I'm=20
>>primarily the one who started it), at the first Seattle conference
> *=20
>>when there was the first serious discussion of scope and sequence.
> At=20
>>that conference I suggested that ATEG establish three, perhaps
> four=20
>>distinct groups, each of which could develop a named scope and=20
>>sequence, based on a specific set of defined terms. It does not
> make=20
>>any sense to have one group that considers infinitives to be
> clauses=20
>>and another that considers them to be phrases, both working within=20
>>the same scope and sequence, and both claiming that they are=20
>>teaching "grammar." Most members of this list realize that there
> are=20
>>fundamental differences among traditional, structural,=20
>>transformational, etc. grammars. Put them all in one "grammar" pot=20
>>and the public has an indigestible mess--the current state of
> affairs.
>>>     Let me note here that I would have been (and to a certain=20
>>extent still am) open to changes in KISS terminology, but none of
> the=20
>>members of ATEG has shown any specific interest in working with
> me.=20
>>Indeed, I started the newsletter and the first conferences with
> the=20
>>idea of getting suggestions and improvements for KISS.
>>>    As long as this group refuses to make such distinctions, it
> will=20
>>fail. In effect, it is speaking and writing nonsense (as I
> understand=20
>>Hobbes to call it), since different members use the same terms to=20
>>refer to different constructions, and different terms to refer to
> the=20
>>same constructions. Clear definitions are first principles of=20
>>philosophy and of the natural sciences. It amazes me that this
> group=20
>>cannot understand that.
>>>Ed
>>
>>To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web =
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>>and select "Join or leave the list"
>>
>>Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/
>>
>>To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web =
>>interface at: http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html and
> select =
>>"Join or leave the list"=20
>>
>>Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/
>>
>>
>>To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web
> interface at:
>>     http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html
>>and select "Join or leave the list"
>>
>>Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/
>
> To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web interface
> at:
>      http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html
> and select "Join or leave the list"
>
> Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/
>

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