I think there has been discussion about this on this list before. The way that I learned this, most of what are sometimes called participle and infinitive phrases are actually non-finite clauses. The idea is that if there are other clause elements present in addition to the non-finite verb, you actually have a reduced or non-finite clause. So if the non-finite verb has a subject, object complement, etcetera, it is a reduced clause. If it doesn't, it is a phrase.
To know him is to love him. 'him' is the object of 'love,' so 'to know him' is a reduced clause.
Running is good for you. 'Running' has no clause elements attached, so it is a participle phrase, or in this case, a gerund, as some of us remember.
This analysis usually works for me, because I can account for the other words in the structure. I think ( and now I suppose somebody is going to tell me what an idiot I am) that this grew out of constituent analysis and functional grammar, in contrast to generative grammar. As I understand it, in generative grammar almost everything is a phrase. Anyway, I've been analyzing clauses this way for a long time.
Janet
________________________________
From: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar on behalf of Nancy Tuten
Sent: Wed 4/9/2008 4:46 PM
To: [log in to unmask]
Subject: clauses vs. phrases
I see what you mean by the difference between "finite" and "infinite." What I am curious about is the notion that these constructions are *clauses* rather than *phrases*. In other words, I am questioning my definition of a clause. The construction "[to] grow tall" looks like an infinitive *phrase* to me, not a *clause* at all.
Nancy
Nancy L. Tuten, PhD
Professor of English
Director of the Writing-across-the-Curriculum Program
Columbia College
Columbia, South Carolina
[log in to unmask] <mailto:[log in to unmask]>
803-786-3706
________________________________
From: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar [mailto:[log in to unmask]] On Behalf Of Castilleja, Janet
Sent: Wednesday, April 09, 2008 7:17 PM
To: [log in to unmask]
Subject: Re: Odd sentence
Yes, that's the definition. However, the infinitive isn't always marked, and the clauses can have subjects. That makes them harder to recognize.
For example, in a sentence like this ' Vitamins make children grow tall,' grow is non-finite. You can tell because you can't put it in the past tense. * Vitamins made children grew tall. It doesn't work. Also, if you substitute a pronoun for the subject, it turns out to be an object pronoun.
Vitamins make them grow tall. * Vitamins make they grow tall. That doesn't work either.
In my sentence, the problem is that when I try to test the troublesome clause by changing the tense, it seems to change the meaning quite a bit.
When they reached the coast of Asia Minor, they insisted that the Greek
colonies of Lydia recognized the Persian Kings as their over- Lords and paid
them a stipulated tax.
It makes it sound as though it had already happened but I don't think that is what the sentence means.
Or if I try to change the person:
When they reached the coast of Asia Minor, they insisted that the Greek
colony of Lydia recognizes the Persian Kings as their over- Lords and pays
them a stipulated tax.
It's the same. It means it is already happening.
Janet
-----Original Message-----
From: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar [mailto:[log in to unmask]] On Behalf Of Nancy Tuten
Sent: Wednesday, April 09, 2008 3:51 PM
To: [log in to unmask]
Subject: Re: Odd sentence
I had never heard the terms "finite" and "nonfinite clauses," so I looked
them up. The examples I found actually look like infinitive and participle
*phrases* to me, not clauses at all.
Is this just another instance where we get tangled up in terminology upon
which we can't agree on the definition?
Here is what I read:
*********************
"Non-finite clauses are built around verbs that do not have tense or
modality--verbs that are not sentence verb phrases. These are clauses with
(1) infinitives and (2) participles (both -ed and -ing).
Infinitive Clause: 1. He wondered why he had forsaken physics *to study
human culture in the first place*.
Present Participle Clause: 2.*Entering the world of the Yanomamo*, the
anthropologist experienced culture shock.
Past Participle Clause: 3. *Confused by the differences between his culture
and theirs*, he wanted to flee and return home.
*********************
As always, I'm looking forward to being humbled and to learning something
new . . .
Nancy
Nancy L. Tuten, PhD
Professor of English
Director of the Writing-across-the-Curriculum Program
Columbia College
Columbia, South Carolina
[log in to unmask]
803-786-3706
-----Original Message-----
From: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar
[mailto:[log in to unmask]] On Behalf Of Castilleja, Janet
Sent: Wednesday, April 09, 2008 5:49 PM
To: [log in to unmask]
Subject: Odd sentence
Hi
What do you folks make of this sentence? Is the clause that begins 'that
the Greek colonies..." finite or non-finite? I think it is non-finite, but
I'm wavering a little.
When they reached the coast of Asia Minor, they insisted that the Greek
colonies of Lydia recognize the Persian Kings as their over- Lords and pay
them a stipulated tax.
Thanks
Janet Castilleja
Heritage University
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